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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:28   #1
Appocomaster
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Rule Update

Those planets closed for covert op // support planet related issues have been reopened, for those not aware. Those ships removed that were "donated" by a "suicide" on the top planet were restored. The main reason for this is that there was no consultation or warning and litte real basis in the EULA, despite opinion to the contary. The action was taken due to a mixture of some previous prescient and in keeping to some extend with the spirit of the EULA. The planets are to be considered as warned, and repeated actions of the past will result in closure.

Having consulted with alliance HCs in the relevant communication channels last night, the following changes to the rules have been decided as of tick 480 for this round:

Though it may seem "unfair" to the top planets, we will formalise the actions seen chiefly at the end of round 16, namely that any planet seen to "suicide" on another planet is can have his or her ships / salvage removed from the target and even be closed, even if there is (apparently) no connection between the planets.


The "support planet" rule will be simplified to some extent. Trying to avoid the alliance limit with planets including passive "inactive" planets, scanners and covert op planets is not allowed.
In less serious cases a warning may be issued; however, it can result in anything up to closure of any and all planets seen to be hiding out of their tag to avoid the alliance limit for their alliance at that time. Covert op planets and scanner planets are considered alliance planets, and while being a scanner or covert op planet and not in tag as such is not against the rules, actions ingame for or against one or a few alliances are deemed enough to see that planet as an out of tag planet. Avoiding alliance limits involves placing your members in other tags, where they act for their "real" alliance instead of their in-game alliance, for example by spending most of their time defending out of galaxy to an alliance other than yourself, or seemingly attacking with other alliances more than your own. This involves a majority of actions not being with an alliance.

This does not forbid battlegroups as such - battlegroups within alliances have no problems. Battlegroups made up of different alliance members have some issues - if too involved in attacking / defending with each other and no one else, especially depending on alliance representation (i.e. 50 of one alliance and 1 of another), could cause warning and eventually being closed.

It also is not meant to cause issues with NAPing or otherwise joining forces with another alliance or alliances. It does mean; however, that "junior wings" of alliances should be (almost) completely separate in-game.

As a note, support planets for a particular planet / galaxy are still not allowed.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:38   #2
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Re: Rule Update

Such a suicide planet should be closed, if the battle is declared void.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:39   #3
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Re: Rule Update

I'm slightly disappointed with the removal of stolen ships through suiciders - every top planet in the history of the game has got noob attackers. Part of the tactic in playing zikonian is to get to a high roid count to try to encourage incomings on either yourself or your galaxy mates.

But I see why this has been done, and its a shame we have to remove another tactic from the game for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

By the way, does this mean a planet has to clear with you that their incoming is allowed to land prior to spending resources/organising defence/not attacking/not defending? Also what about planets that are roided and "just happen" to leave fleet home? As IMO that is no different to what you are ruling out now.

EDIT: Do we realise that if the zik could let the guy suicide and doesn't, thus letting the guy roid him, that is farming? Do we realise that the zik has two options: "Be roided and lose score" or "Play normally but since you're top 10 you get score removed that would otherwise have stuck"?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:39   #4
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Re: Rule Update

Does PATeam intend to review every Zik steal to ensure it's fairness? Perhaps it would be an idea to set up a Stolen Ships Oversight Committee to review all combats which involves ships being stolen?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:42   #5
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Re: Rule Update

So due to the rules not being "clear" enough earlier ship donations were restored to the planets which were donated to? Or were they returned to the planet which had performed the donating?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:42   #6
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Re: Rule Update

would both the planet being suicided on , and the suiciders be closed in such an instance, or just the suiciders.
Also, would the other aspects of the combat be reversed - such as ship loss, xp gained, roids, etc.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:47   #7
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Re: Rule Update

If a suicider gets the battle declared void and don't get instantly deleted it's gonna be shit.
Everyone attacks a top planet... either get max xp or get your ships back and a warning.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:51   #8
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Re: Rule Update

erm, what if i suicide some ships for xp - cuz the xp gain to my score is more than my total losses - which is what most do on the last few ticks
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 00:57   #9
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Re: Rule Update

What if someone launch a legit attack on a zik who then spends its saved up resources just in time for it all to en up as a naughty suicide? Will it be suicide if the attacker cap from the zik but lose a lot of fleet?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 01:02   #10
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Re: Rule Update

The sad thing is, that the suicide rule achieves nothing. Anyone who was actually going to farm ships would have the attacker hit a small cath galaxy mate and send their ships there in defence. Surely no top planet would be stupid enough to donate ships to themselves at their own planet?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 01:05   #11
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I'm slightly disappointed with the removal of stolen ships through suiciders - every top planet in the history of the game has got noob attackers. Part of the tactic in playing zikonian is to get to a high roid count to try to encourage incomings on either yourself or your galaxy mates.

But I see why this has been done, and its a shame we have to remove another tactic from the game for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

By the way, does this mean a planet has to clear with you that their incoming is allowed to land prior to spending resources/organising defence/not attacking/not defending? Also what about planets that are roided and "just happen" to leave fleet home? As IMO that is no different to what you are ruling out now.

EDIT: Do we realise that if the zik could let the guy suicide and doesn't, thus letting the guy roid him, that is farming? Do we realise that the zik has two options: "Be roided and lose score" or "Play normally but since you're top 10 you get score removed that would otherwise have stuck"?

im a bit disappointed too..what happens if some one just sleeps in ? they get their fleet back as a reward for being lazy ?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 01:06   #12
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj
im a bit disappointed too..what happens if some one just sleeps in ? they get their fleet back as a reward for being lazy ?
I think the ships get taken from the top planet - I don't think the ships get returned to the attacker.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 01:11   #13
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Re: Rule Update

theres a difference between a suicide is for example a roiding fleet that just crashs due to oversleep/watever and gets stolen/killed oops suicide haha..and from a fleet composing of purely one ship class , which is designed to simply be stolen with no hope of roids. hope the "ships back there you go" thing addresses that is all
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 01:12   #14
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
I think the ships get taken from the top planet - I don't think the ships get returned to the attacker.
yeah heh i misunderstood, point is relavant also for ships at the top planet
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 02:03   #15
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Re: Rule Update

send people to suicide at top zik late round and force him to stay grounded and gain 0,while others can go attacking / defending. Its in the nature of ziks to want to steal ships, when I get incs from shit alliances I am most of the time happy, as I know I can steal more than I will loose.. but now its all a waste, and u have to get def / stay grounded and gain 0....

This rule is just stupid. period
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 02:19   #16
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Re: Rule Update

This rule, as written, is unenforceable.

May as well just get rid of Ziks if you want to eliminate the thorny problems of fleet suicides for steals.

Of course then you have to worry about suicides for salvage...

*and the beat goes on*
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 02:53   #17
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Re: Rule Update

If this trend continues soon pa will have more rules and laws than a small country and people who play pa will be able to do nothing besides being on irc and chatting, caus anything else will result in closure
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 02:57   #18
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Re: Rule Update

i would rather have rules for the game, then anarchy without.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 03:05   #19
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Re: Rule Update

I dont like to be honest, I'll say a thing that may sound dumb, but, in my opnion, all these kind of problens with planets out of tag, support planets started when PA Team changed the alliance limit from 100 to 60, a very low number of members thats doesnt give the alliance the the though of auto-sufficient, and so they started to have these "support" planets. Wouldn't it be much simpler to change the alliance limit again, giving the alliance the option of having in tag, scanners, cov opers and whatever else it wants, without letting it loose so much for choosing to have them instead of hardcore planets ?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 04:17   #20
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Re: Rule Update

PA needs some changed to prevent multi accounts etc, but this is NOT the way. The direction things are going is going to drive players away, especially the hard-core zik players like myself (the honest ones as well as the cheaters). Basically, things that can happen by chance which us zik would call "good luck" (noobs landing without scans etc) are now deemed "cheating until proven otherwise", except that there's really no chance to prove it otherwise.

Honestly I do appreciate the effort the PA team gives to stopping multi-accounts, farming, etc, but this is not the correct solution.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 06:08   #21
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Re: Rule Update

I think we're going a little bit to the extremes with this hunt, but.


Just one question. Why were the rules for support planets not changed until now, as a part of the changes evidents to problems that already occurred last round? You have the guts to change EULA midround this round, why did this not happen last round when the matter was broadly discussed?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 06:54   #22
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthe
PA needs some changed to prevent multi accounts etc, but this is NOT the way. The direction things are going is going to drive players away, especially the hard-core zik players like myself (the honest ones as well as the cheaters). Basically, things that can happen by chance which us zik would call "good luck" (noobs landing without scans etc) are now deemed "cheating until proven otherwise", except that there's really no chance to prove it otherwise.

Honestly I do appreciate the effort the PA team gives to stopping multi-accounts, farming, etc, but this is not the correct solution.
I agree.

Also, does this rule mean that if I send a one ship class fleet out to defend a friend of mine out of my alliance, I risk being closed? That's how I understand it. And, what if I send a fleet to attack a planet, outside of an alliance attack, and that planet is defended by a fleet that I happen to steal? It happened to me... Will I be closed there too???
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 07:53   #23
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Re: Rule Update

all these rule changes and such are not the fault of the PA team. if alliances could simply play by the rules straight up, instead of always being 'clever' and looking for every loop hole they can find, none of this would be occuring. is there a shred of honor in winning through desperate and devious means? if any courage exsists in playing this way, why do all hide these things and claim innocence when they fool no one? out of tag members, covert op and scanner 'support' planets, and crashing/roiding from 'secret' ally members, are all examples of this. even the title 'support' planet is a name clearly invented by people who play this lame style of the game. it should be 'cheating' planet, since we all know that is exactly what it would be called had those who play this way called a spade a spade. if winning at a GAME means cheating, in any form, then how do you celebrate the victory? do you pat each other on the back and say, 'wow, great cheating everyone! we really outcheated them all!' . impressive. what pride you must feel.
whatever happened to having honor and pride in what you do? i know personally there is no greater reward for me, then the dignity in winning a fair and hard fought battle which led to a few crazy and unpredictable weeks. but when in the end, and the smoke clears, you remain standing and on top. i hope someday this will be true of a round in PA.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 08:13   #24
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyVince
I agree.

Also, does this rule mean that if I send a one ship class fleet out to defend a friend of mine out of my alliance, I risk being closed? That's how I understand it. And, what if I send a fleet to attack a planet, outside of an alliance attack, and that planet is defended by a fleet that I happen to steal? It happened to me... Will I be closed there too???
this rule relates specifically to planets sending 1 class of ship to attack without pods with the intention of them being stolen by the defending planet.

please read the post again

elviz must be gutted by the implementation of this rule.

play the game fairly m8, thats all we ask
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 08:16   #25
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Re: Rule Update

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(Fiery) HK, if your friends don't make over half of their attacks with an alliance bg, they are fine
Is it normal that people get closed for playing their game? If I'm out of tag and want to attack with the battlegroup of x alliance (I have friends there etc) then I should be allowed to. Or should I take a random target from Sandmans and launch on him as I don't even have unitscans? This game is now unplayable by unallied people. Getting into a good alliance is also hard and proving yourself in a battlegroup is a good way to get in. The PA team unfortunately don't care. Changing a rule mid-round is one thing but doing it even though these tactics are available to everyone is even worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
This rule is just stupid. period
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 08:37   #26
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Re: Rule Update

on the + side guys, sleep is a great thing and that's the end result we're all pushing towards or being pushed towards, and so on
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 08:41   #27
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Re: Rule Update

Funny, as i said before, you will never be able to close a cov-opper. Hitting one alliance repeatedly is not a proof of a support planet, you will never be able to prove anything against such planet, except that he hates one particular alliance, or that he has fun covert opping them. Covert ops are part of the game, and you can't tell a player whom he can or cannot covert op.
Scanners out of tag will have a hard time now, but you are hurting most of the alliances who operated this way, since it was perfectly normal and legal (i.e. planets were never closed on this account in the past) in the last round to have scanners out of tag. So your rule change will affect pretty much all of the top alliance who have scanners out of tag, unless you also change the limit on alliances to that all alliances have the chance to incorporate his scanners in the tag.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 10:28   #28
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
elviz must be gutted by the implementation of this rule.

play the game fairly m8, thats all we ask
Sorry to say this Mek, and I don't know if you're trying to provoke something but I'd say its more likely to be the complete opposite, for example an enemy of elviz's sent those ships at him, just so they had "evidence" for means of closure. But that is besides the point and I don't think this thread is the place to go throwing accusations.

P.S. Yes I realise I inadvertently accused someone of bending the truth/rules and I would like to state that it was simply a hypothetical.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 10:54   #29
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangelx
all these rule changes and such are not the fault of the PA team. if alliances could simply play by the rules straight up, instead of always being 'clever' and looking for every loop hole they can find, none of this would be occuring. is there a shred of honor in winning through desperate and devious means? if any courage exsists in playing this way, why do all hide these things and claim innocence when they fool no one? out of tag members, covert op and scanner 'support' planets, and crashing/roiding from 'secret' ally members, are all examples of this. even the title 'support' planet is a name clearly invented by people who play this lame style of the game. it should be 'cheating' planet, since we all know that is exactly what it would be called had those who play this way called a spade a spade. if winning at a GAME means cheating, in any form, then how do you celebrate the victory? do you pat each other on the back and say, 'wow, great cheating everyone! we really outcheated them all!' . impressive. what pride you must feel.
whatever happened to having honor and pride in what you do? i know personally there is no greater reward for me, then the dignity in winning a fair and hard fought battle which led to a few crazy and unpredictable weeks. but when in the end, and the smoke clears, you remain standing and on top. i hope someday this will be true of a round in PA.
quoted for truth
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 10:56   #30
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
If I'm out of tag and want to attack with the battlegroup of x alliance (I have friends there etc) then I should be allowed to.
I think this is probably the most important point in this entire discussion. PA is a game in which groups of people work together and against each other in order to achieve certain goals. You cannot codify that because every single action a planet can take has benefits for some and negatives for others.

Think about how we all got started in this game. Personally I remember a friend of mine telling me about it towards the end of r1. I signed up for r2 and we used to go attacking planets together. A few more people we knew joined up and we told them what to do and we went attacking with them and defended each other when we could. Would that be possible now? No, we'd have to go into an alliance together if we wanted to do that. But going into an alliance together would be a bad idea. Bringing that situation into the modern context, it's most likely that my friend who told me about the game would be in an alliance. It's very possible that he couldn't get me into that alliance. Maybe it's full. Maybe they have a minimum score standard. Maybe I'm not bothered spending eight hours of my day on irc. So maybe I should get another alliance? Why should I though, I don't want to get another alliance, I just want to have fun with my friend. So I quit, I couldn't be bothered with some uptight bullshit game that doesn't let me play how I want to play.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:01   #31
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Re: Rule Update

if you wanted to act as a farm for your friends should you be allowed to?
no

if you wanted to act as a planet solely dedicated to defend a particular group of people , while not belonging to their tag - should you be allowed to?
no

the simple fact is - allowing it invites abuse.
its a sad fact that people will do *anything* to win regardless of the consequences. Archangelx hit the nail on the head perfectly : if all people playing had a shred of backbone, decency, integrity and honour then there would be no need for such rules.
Sadly there are always some for whom such words mean nothing - and the "win at all costs, if they havent explicitly banned it , its allowed despite being extremely dodgy" mantra has taken hold deeply - and they are likely to continue in such a manner. Therefore such rules will always be created as a result of their actions.
Blame them - not pateam for having to respond to them
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:16   #32
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangelx
all these rule changes and such are not the fault of the PA team. if alliances could simply play by the rules straight up, instead of always being 'clever' and looking for every loop hole they can find, none of this would be occuring.
This is horseshit. Every planet looks for loopholes by looking at the stats and the combinations and what's most advantageous and can I steal ships off inactives or is this alliance suffering heavy incoming and less likely to defend this planet. If people don't know what the rules are how can they play fairly by them?

Quote:
is there a shred of honor in winning through desperate and devious means?
What? You mean like having a spy in another alliance? Or NAPing with one alliance to take down another?

Quote:
if any courage exsists in playing this way, why do all hide these things and claim innocence when they fool no one? out of tag members, covert op and scanner 'support' planets, and crashing/roiding from 'secret' ally members, are all examples of this. even the title 'support' planet is a name clearly invented by people who play this lame style of the game.
The title "support planet" was invented by pateam.

Quote:
it should be 'cheating' planet, since we all know that is exactly what it would be called had those who play this way called a spade a spade. if winning at a GAME means cheating, in any form, then how do you celebrate the victory? do you pat each other on the back and say, 'wow, great cheating everyone! we really outcheated them all!' . impressive. what pride you must feel.
IT'S NOT CHEATING IF IT DOESN'T BREAK THE RULES. IF THE RULES AREN'T CLEAR HOW CAN YOU SAY THEY'RE CHEATING?
Quote:
whatever happened to having honor and pride in what you do? i know personally there is no greater reward for me, then the dignity in winning a fair and hard fought battle which led to a few crazy and unpredictable weeks. but when in the end, and the smoke clears, you remain standing and on top. i hope someday this will be true of a round in PA.
I would take pride in outsmarting my enemy. Your imaginary version of PA seems to involve people running at each other with their heads down until someone's neck breaks.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:20   #33
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
if you wanted to act as a farm for your friends should you be allowed to?
no
I think eventually that should become an option again. Currently I believe the game is too small to allow it. I imagine you have this bizzare idea in your head that farming was killing the game at some point. Just to let you in on the secret though, it wasn't.

Quote:
if you wanted to act as a planet solely dedicated to defend a particular group of people , while not belonging to their tag - should you be allowed to?
Yes.

Quote:
the simple fact is - allowing it invites abuse.
its a sad fact that people will do *anything* to win regardless of the consequences. Archangelx hit the nail on the head perfectly : if all people playing had a shred of backbone, decency, integrity and honour then there would be no need for such rules.
You use these words like they aren't entirely subjective. They don't mean anything.

Quote:
Sadly there are always some for whom such words mean nothing - and the "win at all costs, if they havent explicitly banned it , its allowed despite being extremely dodgy" mantra has taken hold deeply - and they are likely to continue in such a manner. Therefore such rules will always be created as a result of their actions.
Blame them - not pateam for having to respond to them
Frankly the only rules I believe PA should always have is no multiple planets. One man, one planet, no other rules.

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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:30   #34
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
if you wanted to act as a farm for your friends should you be allowed to?
no

if you wanted to act as a planet solely dedicated to defend a particular group of people , while not belonging to their tag - should you be allowed to?
no

the simple fact is - allowing it invites abuse.
its a sad fact that people will do *anything* to win regardless of the consequences. Archangelx hit the nail on the head perfectly : if all people playing had a shred of backbone, decency, integrity and honour then there would be no need for such rules.
Sadly there are always some for whom such words mean nothing - and the "win at all costs, if they havent explicitly banned it , its allowed despite being extremely dodgy" mantra has taken hold deeply - and they are likely to continue in such a manner. Therefore such rules will always be created as a result of their actions.
Blame them - not pateam for having to respond to them
For god's sake, alliances don't try to go pass every loophole. they are just using all of the features in the game. By archangelx 1up shouldn't celebrate their last round's victory as they used a loophole. In my opinion they played the round perfectly in terms of politics and military and won the round because of great strategical planning.

If I always give my best and do everything possible to win then excuse me, I won't do it any more. In fact I won't be playing the next round because of people like you who do everything to kill the game. This game is not just about alliances. It's about clusters, galaxies and players. You've already killed clusters with alliances. Galaxies hardly work any more either as players need to send fleets according to their alliance's officers' commands. Now you want to remove the planet-level also? Alliances come and go but players stay. Not for long, it seems.

And please read my previous post and come up with a solution to that problem. If people can't attack with their friends then why play the game? You can't defend them anyway because of alliance ETA advantage.

There have been tons of mistakes done in this round and I and other players have mentioned those in this thread. PA team shouldn't have made the stats so attack-b(i)ased then we wouldn't have this pseudoproblem now. The amount of those "support" planets is so low and their role in any alliance vs alliance fight is extremely minor. You can't blame them if you're alliance sucks tbh. I am not talking about cheating here, I'm talking about covert opping, scanning and attacking with your friends which might sometimes include teamups on some planets. This should not be classified as cheating.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:30   #35
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is horseshit. Every planet looks for loopholes by looking at the stats and the combinations and what's most advantageous and can I steal ships off inactives or is this alliance suffering heavy incoming and less likely to defend this planet. If people don't know what the rules are how can they play fairly by them?
By not trying to push the loopholes existing in the rules as far as they go - forcing pateam to reclarify them to explicitly deny whatever it was they were doing
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The title "support planet" was invented by pateam.
in response to what people were doing. Precisely the same as whats happened again here with covert op planets
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
IT'S NOT CHEATING IF IT DOESN'T BREAK THE RULES. IF THE RULES AREN'T CLEAR HOW CAN YOU SAY THEY'RE CHEATING?
Thats like saying child porn isnt bad if its done in a country where it isnt banned by law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I would take pride in outsmarting my enemy. Your imaginary version of PA seems to involve people running at each other with their heads down until someone's neck breaks.
Never thought i'd see the day i would see you trolling jbg. Are you scraping the bottom of the barrel that much , forcing you to rely on insults?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think eventually that should become an option again. Currently I believe the game is too small to allow it. I imagine you have this bizzare idea in your head that farming was killing the game at some point. Just to let you in on the secret though, it wasn't.

Would you prefer a game where the winners are determined by who has the most farms?
Thats a distinct possibility should it ever be permitted again and its one which is not good for the game imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You use these words like they aren't entirely subjective. They don't mean anything.
To you , perhaps not. Your opinions seem to make that quite clear.
There are those out there however who do take stock by such words and what they represent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Frankly the only rules I believe PA should always have is no multiple planets. One man, one planet, no other rules.
That explains your inability to accept why some things are bad, and why some things are too abusable to allow.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:42   #36
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
By not trying to push the loopholes existing in the rules as far as they go - forcing pateam to reclarify them to explicitly deny whatever it was they were doing
That's ridiculous though. If I look at the stats at the start of the round and see that xan have a clear advantage and will end up dominating the universe should I go to pateam and tell them this? Loopholes are just the absence of rules. Maybe in real life where people are actually deprived of life, property or liberty you can say a wrong was definitely committed but in a game?

Quote:
in response to what people were doing. Precisely the same as whats happened again here with covert op planets
My point is that it wasn't invented by anyone to cover up anything.

[qupte]Thats like saying child porn isnt bad if its done in a country where it isnt banned by law.[/quote]No it's not, this is a game. There are no intrinsic moral rules related to it.

Quote:
Never thought i'd see the day i would see you trolling jbg. Are you scraping the bottom of the barrel that much , forcing you to rely on insults?
Fine, ignore my last sentence then. Reply to the first bit. I take pride in outsmarting my enemy

Quote:

Would you prefer a game where the winners are determined by who has the most farms?
Thats a distinct possibility should it ever be permitted again and its one which is not good for the game imo.
Now you're just wrong. I remember quite clearly when farming was still permitted and there were still alliance wars and **** me they were a damn sight better than the crap we have now.

Quote:
To you , perhaps not. Your opinions seem to make that quite clear.
There are those out there however who do take stock by such words and what they represent.
What do they represent? You can't define them or explain them to me. I genuinely want to know what "honour" in an online browser-based text game consists of? Fake-nicking? Having spies in other alliances? Launching on smaller planets than you?
Quote:
That explains your inability to accept why some things are bad, and why some things are too abusable to allow.
I like this style of argument. "It's true, accept it!"
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:43   #37
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
For god's sake, alliances don't try to go pass every loophole. they are just using all of the features in the game.
It is pateam who determine if what people are doing is using a game feature, or abusing a loophole.
They seem to be quite clear on what was going on, was infact abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
If I always give my best and do everything possible to win then excuse me, I won't do it any more. In fact I won't be playing the next round because of people like you who do everything to kill the game.
Im not the one abusing loopholes in order to get an advantage in the game, nor am i the one complaining when pateam recognise this as bad and stop it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
This game is not just about alliances. It's about clusters, galaxies and players. You've already killed clusters with alliances. Galaxies hardly work any more either as players need to send fleets according to their alliance's officers' commands. Now you want to remove the planet-level also? Alliances come and go but players stay. Not for long, it seems.
Asking that people play with a shred of honour or integrity - and not do everything in their power to sneak around established rules is hardly wanting to remove any planet-level aspect of the game.
If its a valid feature then let pateam explicitly say so and promote the game on such a basis.
If its abuse - let pateam forbid it.
simple as that

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
And please read my previous post and come up with a solution to that problem. If people can't attack with their friends then why play the game? You can't defend them anyway because of alliance ETA advantage.
If they want to attack with their friends then theres nothing stopping them creating an alliance for themselves.
If they want to defend each other - thats what buddy packs are for : to allow you to play with friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
There have been tons of mistakes done in this round and I and other players have mentioned those in this thread. PA team shouldn't have made the stats so attack-b(i)ased then we wouldn't have this pseudoproblem now.
on this we agree. there have been far too many mistakes - and the stats are orientated towards attacking.
Thats something which everyone has an opportunity to correct in betas however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
The amount of those "support" planets is so low and their role in any alliance vs alliance fight is extremely minor.
And you have empirical evidence to support this conjecture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
You can't blame them if you're alliance sucks tbh.
I can blame them if they are abusing the rules of the game however
Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
I am not talking about cheating here
I am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
I'm talking about covert opping, scanning and attacking with your friends which might sometimes include teamups on some planets. This should not be classified as cheating.
Thats for pateam to decide - and it seems they have done.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 11:49   #38
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That's ridiculous though. If I look at the stats at the start of the round and see that xan have a clear advantage and will end up dominating the universe should I go to pateam and tell them this? Loopholes are just the absence of rules. Maybe in real life where people are actually deprived of life, property or liberty you can say a wrong was definitely committed but in a game?
If you have an interest in creating a balanced set of stats, and accordingly aiding to create a balanced and fair game then yes, of course you should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No it's not, this is a game. There are no intrinsic moral rules related to it.
Moral - perhaps not ( unless you count this pg only stance on things like gal banners, names, etc as a moral aspect ) but certainly things like fair play come into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Fine, ignore my last sentence then. Reply to the first bit. I take pride in outsmarting my enemy
Then im sure you take extra pride in doing so without having to resort to such murky measures

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Now you're just wrong. I remember quite clearly when farming was still permitted and there were still alliance wars and **** me they were a damn sight better than the crap we have now.
there were also a lot more players, and a completely different game engine in effect
correlation does not equal causation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I like this style of argument. "It's true, accept it!"
it wasnt an argument, it was more along the lines of " that explains a few things to me "
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:03   #39
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Re: Rule Update

goodluck inforcing this rule
i suggest atleast 10 more MH's
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:07   #40
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
If you have an interest in creating a balanced set of stats, and accordingly aiding to create a balanced and fair game then yes, of course you should.
But one side is always going to have a slight advantage, even if only due to the race breakdown as people sign up.

Quote:
Moral - perhaps not ( unless you count this pg only stance on things like gal banners, names, etc as a moral aspect ) but certainly things like fair play come into it.
But in a war game they don't. War games are fundamentally unfair. Taking roids off a planet for your own benefit is a fundamentally unfair action.

Quote:
Then im sure you take extra pride in doing so without having to resort to such murky measures
But you can't even tell me what the murky measures are without resorting to an arbitrary "ask pateam" clause. There needs to be an independent definitive list of what is or is not allowed.

Quote:
there were also a lot more players, and a completely different game engine in effect
correlation does not equal causation.
Indeed. However you have zero examples you can point to and say "look, there it happened". At least I have one fairly similar example.

Quote:
it wasnt an argument, it was more along the lines of " that explains a few things to me "
Why did you bother typing it out then? Felt a need to try and belittle someone else's opinion?
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:11   #41
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
But one side is always going to have a slight advantage, even if only due to the race breakdown as people sign up.
I agree. It doesnt mean that a glaring flaw should be ignored however. Its better to *try* to make it as fair as possible then to not try at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
But you can't even tell me what the murky measures are without resorting to an arbitrary "ask pateam" clause. There needs to be an independent definitive list of what is or is not allowed.
Yes, there does. Again i point to a whitelist solution which I favour - but what others regard as impractical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Indeed. However you have zero examples you can point to and say "look, there it happened". At least I have one fairly similar example.
No, you dont.
All you have is that one round was more fun then another - something which could be the result of far too many factors for you to pick one out of the air and shout " see see! ".
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why did you bother typing it out then? Felt a need to try and belittle someone else's opinion?
Simply to let you know im beginning to understand why you say what you say.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:13   #42
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Re: Rule Update

Can we have more rule changes? Any planets with the word "of" in it should be closed due to the word "of" means **** in swahili
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:20   #43
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I agree. It doesnt mean that a glaring flaw should be ignored however. Its better to *try* to make it as fair as possible then to not try at all
Fairest possible way is for one set of stats. Why do we have more sets of stats then? Because it's exciting that's why.

Quote:
Yes, there does. Again i point to a whitelist solution which I favour - but what others regard as impractical.
Fair enough, I'd far prefer that to the current situation.

Quote:
No, you dont.
All you have is that one round was more fun then another - something which could be the result of far too many factors for you to pick one out of the air and shout " see see! ".
Now you're being mindlessly pedantic. Following that logic we'd have to have to the same debate prior to very single round as to whether or not farming should be allowed as it might be okay this round, and might not the next. In fact we could start claiming it about anything, the existence of a terran de class ship, the influx of non-english-speaking people into PA, the size of galaxies.

Quote:
Simply to let you know im beginning to understand why you say what you say.
That's okay, you could have just asked me. Here, I'll let you know anyways, I want to make PA fun.


Edit: I'd ask you to do the following as a favour to me. First try and define fairplay, write down a two sentence description of it on a piece of paper or hell just use www.dictionary.com Then ask yourself the following questions:

1) Are planets outside of tag defending a particular tag fair?
2) Are spies fair?
3) Is a political agreement between two alliances fair?
4) Is fake-nicking fair?
5) Is choosing to attack one planet constantly fair?
6) Is choosing to attack a planet smaller than you fair?
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 27 Jul 2006 at 12:26.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:27   #44
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Now you're being mindlessly pedantic. Following that logic we'd have to have to the same debate prior to very single round as to whether or not farming should be allowed as it might be okay this round, and might not the next. In fact we could start claiming it about anything, the existence of a terran de class ship, the influx of non-english-speaking people into PA, the size of galaxies.
I cant quite see how your chain of thought jamp to that conclusion.
Thats is not what i am saying at all
I am saying you cannot simply pick out one aspect of a round and claim its a panacea for all that ails any future rounds - especially not something like farming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That's okay, you could have just asked me. Here, I'll let you know anyways, I want to make PA fun.
That may be your intention, but the cost is too high for me to stomach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Edit: I'd ask you to do the following as a favour to me. First try and define fairplay, write down a two sentence description of it on a piece of paper or hell just use www.dictionary.com Then ask yourself the following questions:
Fair play , in regards to planetarion is in my view :
Playing within the established rules and not abusing any loopholes within them. You play for yourself, your galaxy or alliance - not someone elses. You do not bend the established rules in order to gain an advantage , not do you break them to do the same.

1) Are planets outside of tag defending a particular tag fair? - No. Breaks the support planet rule.
2) Are spies fair? Yes. They still play for their alliance - However they are admittedly distasteful.
3) Is a political agreement between two alliances fair? Tricky one this. Will require further thought.
4) Is fake-nicking fair? - Yes, but again its distasteful. Only necessary because of spies and alliances wanting to keep their coordinates hidden for as long as possible
5) Is choosing to attack one planet constantly fair? - No. Easily interpreted as farming if done sufficiently.
6) Is choosing to attack a planet smaller than you fair? - Yes, for the simple reason thats why the bash limit exists to provide a threshold for what is and is not fair when attacking those smaller then you

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Also can you please respond to the edited bit in the above post concerning fairplay thanks.
I was, i replied to the orig post before the edited part was added in
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Last edited by Phil^; 27 Jul 2006 at 12:40.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:31   #45
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
if you wanted to act as a farm for your friends should you be allowed to?
no

if you wanted to act as a planet solely dedicated to defend a particular group of people , while not belonging to their tag - should you be allowed to?
no

the simple fact is - allowing it invites abuse.
its a sad fact that people will do *anything* to win regardless of the consequences. Archangelx hit the nail on the head perfectly : if all people playing had a shred of backbone, decency, integrity and honour then there would be no need for such rules.
Sadly there are always some for whom such words mean nothing - and the "win at all costs, if they havent explicitly banned it , its allowed despite being extremely dodgy" mantra has taken hold deeply - and they are likely to continue in such a manner. Therefore such rules will always be created as a result of their actions.
Blame them - not pateam for having to respond to them
This is just cutting off your nose to spite your face, though.

There is no point in having a rule designed to prevent cheats if the game doesn't work as it should. And the game clearly doesn't with any SPR (new acronym for Support Planets Rule), I don't need to repeat JBG's posts because they quote first principles on how the game should be played.

The fact is cheats have been caught in the past and there is the simple fact that if people think you are cheating, they don't want you to win. It's why, in my view, we can get away with basic rules for cheating.

The primary concern is whether the game actually works rather than anything being 'fair'.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:34   #46
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I cant quite see how your chain of thought jamp to that conclusion.
Thats is not what i am saying at all
I am saying you cannot simply pick out one aspect of a round and claim its a panacea for all that ails any future rounds - especially not something like farming.
Ah, slight misunderstanding. I'm not claiming farming would make these rounds better. I'm saying claiming it will make them less fun or exciting is groundless.

Quote:
That may be your intention, but the cost is too high for me to stomach.
What cost? You're really just drawing lines in the sand here. As I said above the fairest approach to ship stats is one set of stats, hell it's probably one ship. But we don't do it that way because the game's supposed to be about fun. It's not fair when two alliances attack one alliance but the game shouldn't be about what's fair, it should be about what's fun!

Also can you please respond to the edited bit in the above post concerning fairplay thanks.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:50   #47
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Re: Rule Update

Ok so now we are not allowed to help each other out without being in the same alliance basically. It seems from my understanding anyway that we should simply have one race, alliances instead of galaxies ( i mean whole alliances in one gal) and the alliance with the most ships wins.

All alliances should mail each other with the times they will attack, Ziks should just sit there initing roids coz if they attack a small planet for ships they are farming and if they steal all their incs they get closed for ship donations and one set of stats ofc.

So we are left with idle ziks or people not playing for fear of getting closed if they attack or defend. Alliances hitting eachother for minimal gains just because it is the fair and honorable thing to do and one set of stats that everyone knows inside out and back to front meaning it will end up with people getting so bored of attacking or even playing for that matter. People will only attack one race for fear of losing ships and thus getting closed for only attacking coz of salvage gains.

Overall the game will die as there will only be one way of playing and that will get boring fast.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:51   #48
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What cost? You're really just drawing lines in the sand here. As I said above the fairest approach to ship stats is one set of stats, hell it's probably one ship. But we don't do it that way because the game's supposed to be about fun. It's not fair when two alliances attack one alliance but the game shouldn't be about what's fair, it should be about what's fun!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc Picard
Not again. The line must be drawn here - this far, no further!
etc
The cost, as i percieve is the very soul of the game itself.
now im sure you will proceed to ridicule or rubbish me on that, go ahead - being ridiculed doesnt particularly bother me any more

It may be fun for whoever (ab)uses things that you would consider valid, but it certainly isnt for everyone else who gets hit by them.
sure they could go and do it back but that doesnt make it right either.
In most cases, the damage is already done - the advantage gained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Also can you please respond to the edited bit in the above post concerning fairplay thanks.
See above.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:58   #49
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
etc
The cost, as i percieve is the very soul of the game itself.
now im sure you will proceed to ridicule or rubbish me on that, go ahead - being ridiculed doesnt particularly bother me any more
I'm not here to ridicule anyone. I'm arguing for the future, or the soul if you prefer, of the game. I disagree with your assessment. I don't advocate reintroducing farming right now, as I said i think the game is too small. However I do advocate removing alliance restrictions that are essentially meaningless when there is no difference between one giant alliance causing the effects you complain of and a bunch of smaller alliances with NAPs or one alliance with a bunch of planet NAPs.

Quote:
It may be fun for whoever (ab)uses things that you would consider valid, but it certainly isnt for everyone else who gets hit by them.
But this logic could just as easily be applied to two alliances hitting one alliance, or two planets teaming up on one planet. It may be fun for whoever attacks the smaller alliance, but it isn't for the smaller alliance to get hit.
Quote:
sure they could go and do it back but that doesnt make it right either.
Same again

Quote:
In most cases, the damage is already done - the advantage gained.
Get your revenge in first.

Edit: Just noticed you replied to my fairplay question, scrolling up to read it now.

Edit edit: Lunch first!
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 12:59   #50
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Re: Rule Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
the very soul of the game itself
is attacking and defending as you please, that is what makes entertainment. Not preventing this for the sake of stopping cheating.

game first, cheats second.
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Last edited by lokken; 27 Jul 2006 at 13:05.
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