'def fleets' made easier

[-Blue Moon-]

The Pitch
Ever had the problem trying to communicate what you have home to your DCs?
Tired of cutting and pasting into excel?
Never fear - things could be made easier!

Option 1
This option is like the on golden roids where when you click it you would pull out extra info (yay im so good at technical terms - EXPAND fields maybe??) and show what's available and where. This way it's not constantly messy and only pops out when you need/want it to. This way you can just paste the relevent fleet(s) to your DC, and if you're super smart you'll move all your ships home into 'Base' so you only have to paste once


Fleet Location Scans Target ETA Mission Ships
Base 1:1:1 -- -- -- 50
+ Spider 50
Alpha 1:1:1 -- -- -- 15
+ Tzen 15
Beta 1:1:1 P S T U N J 50:1:1 6 Return 20
+ Rogue 20
Gamma 1:1:1 P S T U N J 50:1:2 7 Attack 10
+ Ghost 5 + Spider 5


Option 2
Alternatively something similar is added to mission, where you can actively COLLAPSE fields so that you dont see :

Base 1:1:1 -- --
Ship Class Target Type Count
Spider Fighter Corvette Emp 50

instead you have the option to collapse some fields to see :

Base 1:1:1 -- --
Ship Count
Spider 50

Or possibly any combination of the above fields?


Option 3
Making the fleets page more useful by again removing or having the option to hide some of those fields that you don't always want to see.

Instead of:
Ships Cla Tar Base Alpha Beta Gamma TOTAL
Spider FI CO 50 0 0 5 55

We can have the option to again collapse any fields to see something more like:
Ships Base
Spider 50


Conclusion
Anyway, all of these options simply means that offered defense would be more accurate and a lot easier to do -- and I'm sure both the newer and more established alliances would appreciate any of these 3 changes.

tux

[mist]

personally, i'm against anything that makes BCing easier, as it means that more 'ability' is transfered from the average alliance's member to its command. while this may present a lower point of entry to the game i think it makes it much less rewarding.

[Thex]

I like option 2 or 3. I often get asked in defences what have I sent. Presently I have to cut and paste loads of text when all I need to tell someone is Spider 50, Cutter 200 etc, so they can add that directly to the calc.

[Dotatrix]

just paste them from the overview page...

[Kal]

Originally Posted by mist

personally, i'm against anything that makes BCing easier, as it means that more 'ability' is transfered from the average alliance's member to its command. while this may present a lower point of entry to the game i think it makes it much less rewarding.

hmm surely thats wrong - if bcing is easier doens't that reduce the skill differential between a member as a bc - if bcing is easier, more people could do it surely?

[Doorsdown]

tbh its not the skill that matters as almost anyone can do it.. its the metal power to sit there and do it over and over that is the key

[-Blue Moon-]

it shouldn't be something that requires skill , and re: pasting from overview you can't always do that without adding:

minus 3,000 spider, 120 tara, 37 widowmaker , etc

i think it'd be a nice and easy addition to help EVERYONE out, not only DCs

edit: and mist i was talking DC not BC - try reading before commenting

[Wishmaster]

Originally Posted by mist

personally, i'm against anything that makes BCing easier, as it means that more 'ability' is transfered from the average alliance's member to its command. while this may present a lower point of entry to the game i think it makes it much less rewarding.

pff. The skill is NOT in adding numbers. its about ENTIRELY other aspects. This will only help u do the job a bit faster, without thinking more than u have to at the middle of the night. ALL CAN add numbers, but if u dont have to, then u dont want to.

If u think this will make everyone a skilled BC, then get a clue.

sry

[Cannon_Fodder]

How is c+p from the mission page hard?

[robban1]

well half the xp for roiding so we get real players again instead of the xp whoring mofos that are louting the toplist atm

and yes c+p ftw

[-Blue Moon-]

Originally Posted by sniborp

How is c+p from the mission page hard?

real log:

[03:13] <tuxed0> i can help gimme a sec
[03:15] <tuxed0> anti FR/CO right?
[03:15] <DC> yes, eta 8
[03:15] <tuxed0> I have:
paste from overview
[03:15] <tuxed0> Spider 5,997 Beetle x
[03:15] <tuxed0> Viper 12,828 Widowmaker x
[03:15] <tuxed0> Scarab x Black Widow x
[03:15] <tuxed0> Roach x Tarantula x
[03:15] <tuxed0> Guardian x Mosquito x
[03:15] <tuxed0> Hornet x
[03:18] <DC> great, send the spider/viper eta8 to x:y:z
[03:18] <tuxed0> oh wait, crap i forgot there's 6k viper out
[03:18] <tuxed0> Ships Cla Tar Base Alpha Beta Gamma TOTAL
[03:18] <tuxed0> Spider FI CO 1,000 2600 2,397 0 5,997
[03:18] <tuxed0> Beetle CO FI 0 x 0 0 x
[03:18] <tuxed0> Viper CO FR 6,828 0 0 6,000 12,828
[03:19] <tuxed0> and 2600 spider returning eta 5
[03:19] <tuxed0> so i have like, 6828 viper?
[03:19] <tuxed0> and errrr 3397 spiders
[03:20] <DC> hold on recalcing.
[03:22] <DC> ugh i wish this took less time
[03:22] <tuxed0> i know right...

as opposed to what i propose that I could have simply put everything home into my base fleet and said:

Base -- --
Spider 3397 Viper 6828
Widowmaker x Scarab x

etc...

no stress
no hassle
no complications

just simple.

combined with a log of a guy I was talking to about this with:

[21:31] <tuxed0> its not a need, its a want. suggestions are ideas to make the game better, and i think this would make it better
[21:32] <someone> I think there are a lot of other things that could be worked on, prior to this being implemented. If this is seriously looked at I would consider it low priority. I don't see why someone can't just paste there base fleet and say that they're DE class ships are out. Where as, if I understand correctly, with your suggestion the base fleet would simply read the ship type/count w/o the targetting info.
[21:33] <tuxed0> yeah, see there's 3 different ways it can be implemented, and it's just pointless to see all the target crap on each screen because sometimes it even messes up when pasting into a bcalc. its low-priority i get that, but it'd still be a good one imo
[21:33] * tuxed0 fingers crossed eh ?

Hopefully this should answer any more questions and help you understand how something like this could decrease work and stress levels; and if that's not a good thing : what is?

tux

[Wishmaster]

iirc (some time since I DCed last time) U cant c/p from mission into bcalc?

but have to add manually?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by mist

personally, i'm against anything that makes BCing easier.

I think I speak for a lot of DCs, BCs, MOs and other assorted command members when I say '**** you'.

[Wishmaster]

Originally Posted by Banned

I think I speak for a lot of DCs, BCs, MOs and other assorted command members when I say '**** you'.

well said

[Doorsdown]

Originally Posted by Banned

I think I speak for a lot of DCs, BCs, MOs and other assorted command members when I say '**** you'.

definatly

[hobo]

Originally Posted by Banned

I think I speak for a lot of DCs, BCs, MOs and other assorted command members when I say '**** you'.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Banned

I think I speak for a lot of DCs, BCs, MOs and other assorted command members when I say '**** you'.

Here here.

[-Blue Moon-]

good good
i'm glad y'all support this

[mist]

oh noes, where will i find someone to run my planet for me now that all the BCs don't love me?

wish, i don't think that adding numbers is what makes a skilled BC. in my experience getting people's collective arses moving is by far the hardest part of the job. as someone said - pretty much anyone can do the adding up. this is why i don't think removing bcs and having people run their own defence would be a bad thing.

[Thex]

Its not hard to cut and paste from either Overview or Missions. But personally I would like to be able to cut and paste a simple fleet composition. This would just detail the ships you could send and the numbers.

Often I have some ships out (so they are unavaiilable) and most of the time I've been asked for a specific fleet, so only want to show them the anti FR (or whatever)

This would be easier than seeing all the other crap like scans, ETA, planet location, non targetting ships etc, which the DC either already knows or doesn't want to know.

Sure its only small change, but if the DC is trying to calc it all they simply want to know the type of ships and numbers that are relevant.

[mist]

some javascript whereby you could show ships targetting various classes would probably be best for what the op wants, btw?

something like a row of checkboxes with each ship type (fighter, corvette, etc), and then a box underneath that lists the types of ships that target those checked and which you have available (possibly the option to include/exlcude fleets by another set of boxes?). this could, ofc, be created by a parser which eats a paste from in game, so isn't neccessarily something that pa need to add themselves

anyway, with that kind of setup people wouldn't even need to know what their ships do \o/

[Banned]

Originally Posted by mist

some javascript whereby you could show ships targetting various classes would probably be best for what the op wants, btw?

something like a row of checkboxes with each ship type (fighter, corvette, etc), and then a box underneath that lists the types of ships that target those checked and which you have available (possibly the option to include/exlcude fleets by another set of boxes?). this could, ofc, be created by a parser which eats a paste from in game, so isn't neccessarily something that pa need to add themselves

anyway, with that kind of setup people wouldn't even need to know what their ships do \o/

What I want, what I think the OP wants, is a javascript that lets you show details on a specific fleet. Similar to the javascript on the Production screen.

So that when I want to see what's in fleet #1, I click on alpha, and it expands my alpha fleet. That way, if I have 1 fleet and my base fleet at home, I can expand those two, and paste them or the relevant ships to my BC.

Or to my galmate when we're organizing defense in the galchannel. Or to my attack buddy, so he can run a calc on our attack (or he can paste it to me, so I can run the calc, or we can both paste it to eachother, so we can have an epic circle jerk of calcs).

[mist]

that's pretty much what i said, although i was going to remove fleets rather than have them appear - this was because i thought it'd be easier to be able to see what's in each fleet and remove the ones that you don't want, rather than remembering what's in them (did i send fleet 2 or 3 to attack? etc).

the relevant ships is kinda tricky, as pa:n is due to have multiple targetting it'd be very difficult to put the ships in an order whereby all the ones that target the same stuff are together to copy and paste easilly, and even if you do manage that there'll be some sod who attacks you with battleships and fighters or something so you have to show two halves anyway. hence the suggestion to have checkboxes as to what you want to show, targets wise, to really cut down on pasting anything you don't need.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by mist

the relevant ships is kinda tricky, as pa:n is due to have multiple targetting it'd be very difficult to put the ships in an order whereby all the ones that target the same stuff are together to copy and paste easilly, and even if you do manage that there'll be some sod who attacks you with battleships and fighters or something so you have to show two halves anyway. hence the suggestion to have checkboxes as to what you want to show, targets wise, to really cut down on pasting anything you don't need.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

[mist]

the objective seemed to be to paste as little 'crap' to a BC as possible when telling them what ships you have available. if they're wanting to defend against a FR/DE fleet, for example, there's little point telling them about ships that only target FI, so i suggested a mechanism for removing them.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by mist

the objective seemed to be to paste as little 'crap' to a BC as possible when telling them what ships you have available. if they're wanting to defend against a FR/DE fleet, for example, there's little point telling them about ships that only target FI, so i suggested a mechanism for removing them.

No, the objective is to make it easier to post correct information. If you blindly copy from the overview, there is no information on the overview reminding you that you put half your Vipers in that ingal def. And if you paste from the missions page, it's not bcalc parsable.

[mist]

aaaah, i see. my bad.

still, pasting only the relevant ships would seem like a useful thing, if you're gonna start changing things?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by mist

aaaah, i see. my bad.

still, pasting only the relevant ships would seem like a useful thing, if you're gonna start changing things?

Only matters for Zik really.

[mist]

fair enough.

why isn't the missions page bcalc parsable btw?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by mist

why isn't the missions page bcalc parsable btw?

Ship Class Target Type Count

Whereas bcalcs parse 'Ship Count'. Which doesn't mean it's impossible, but afaik no bcalcs do this yet. Imo it's less human parsable when pasted on IRC as well.

[mist]

i can see it would be, yeh

you think it would be worth looking at setting up an 'ascii table', rather than using the html table, so that it stays the same when it's pasted in to irc? or do people usually just paste straight in to calcs nowadays?

[Banned]

In my opinion -Blue Moon-'s suggestion covers the demand for that and improves upon it.

[frostbeule]

Originally Posted by Banned

Ship Class Target Type Count

Whereas bcalcs parse 'Ship Count'. Which doesn't mean it's impossible, but afaik no bcalcs do this yet. Imo it's less human parsable when pasted on IRC as well.

Why not changeing the order then to:
Ship Count Class Target Type

(correct me if I'm wrong but) Surely the parsers would do that and then you could put everything in your base fleet and pasting this to the DCs via IRC. That would solve the problem imo

[Doorsdown]

it would

[-Blue Moon-]

Originally Posted by Banned

In my opinion -Blue Moon-'s suggestion covers the demand for that and improves upon it.

ta - as i said, any of the 3 would allow for easier interpretation ofg what's actually available, and any of the three would allow for easy parsing into bcalcs

[-Blue Moon-]

As far as I know, this is still a problem.
Please tell me off if it is not an issue any more and I'll go under a rock and cry!

For the record I am aware that there are some bcalcs which can take pastes from missions (apparently), but I'm more interested in giving IRC players and DCs a helpful stressless change so that ships are paste-able accurate and understandable directly from the game to IRC :-)

tuxed0

[The_Tyrant]

thrud's bcalc can parse the mission screen.

still seems like a good idea though...

[Jester]

It's not just a good idea, it's a great idea. It's also the sort of thing PAteam have been good at adding to the game for the last rounds.

[DarkHeart]

test

step 1.

your dc puts a shout out for anti BS, you move your 180 priates into fleet 1.



click on fleet 1 (or w/e u have named it) on the fleets screen (<---needs coding by the staff)



in a new window, something that is entirly conceivable to be a fleet scan of your own stuff appears in a new window


u then just copy and paste all your ships that appear in the fleet scan, [edit] into the irc whisper with youur dc [end edit] and it skips all the annoying class targets etc stuff

[Ace]

LCH calc you can add mission page fleets too aswell.
No need to make a mil scan of yourself to add the fleet.

[DarkHeart]

acers aye idd, thoguh an average player responding to a def call aint gonna run a calc, that thread is about improving communication to your dc's whilst your response is more aimed at dc's receiving missions pages
my idea offers a quick alternative to pasting misssions page as well as the lch clac does
but my idea keeps all the stuff int he game window, u dont have to click favfourites, find lch calc etc

[Ultimate Newbie]

What i thought Ace meant was that the DC can just throw the Missions paste of the player offering def into the calc, by copying and pasting from the DC's PM with the player.

However, that's a little strange as it means the DC needs the fleet to have launched before they can tell whether they actually want to send that def or not.

I'm sure that there has to be an easier way...

[-Blue Moon-]

all good ideas guys (except i don't think Ultimate meant that you have to scan yourself - it was more like a "what this extra click option 'could' look like")

I'll admit this kind of change might be a little tricky to code with java (like on production) on such short notice (even if this thread has been active since DECEMBER LAST YEAR!!!) but it's something which is definately doable ... even if it is just really lazy --- like.... create 3 mission screens 'fleet 1 missions' 'fleet 2 missions' 'fleet 3 missions' which is a REALLY simple quick-fix till something prettier can be used?

Please PA Team - there's sufficient support here for you to do SOMETHING about it -- we've given about 5/6 examples of how you could do it now, could someone 'official' please make a comment?

Downside == NONE.

Everyone who's been reading and contributing to this thread, please spread it around (my IRC doesn't work from work so I can't direct more people to this thread)....

-tux

[-Blue Moon-]

bumping this as it was so popular and i still want to make sure it's done at some point, hoping that the PATeam has decided to do something about it this round (considering I first suggested it in round 17)

-tux

[Stoom]

yes!

[Aragno]

I'm sure more calcs than xVx handels fleetpage and mission scans