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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 04:30   #51
[FC]Imperial
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazmaniandevil
eh???
that which was to be demonstrated
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 05:45   #52
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Re: Round 26 stats

Just a few thoughts about ETD in their current state:
(brackets are for eta)

--------
ETD FR
--------
- 0 loss def: harpy (-1), spider (-1), viper (-1), roach (+1), pulsar (-1), sentinel (-1), shadow (0) corsair (-1), recluse (0), fireblade (+1)

The problem I see for ETD FR fleet is:
1. Ziks hunting them for free steal
2. Xans fake def which will be so easy with 3 ships available (2 ships for ally def)
3. each race with at least one 0 loss def ship vs ETD FR


--------
ETD CR
--------
- 0 loss def: none
- ships firing first: naga (-1), drake (-1), tarantula (0), mantis (0), bomber (-1), rogue (0), guardian (0)

The problem for ETD CR is the losses that seems inevitable even on small targets and the big vulnerability to hidden prod.

ATM they don't look to me as an easy choice for solo players </understatement>
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 11:12   #53
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Re: Round 26 stats

You might have noticed, but the defender is a FR shooting at fi\co.

(It is possible you listed 0 loss as its emp though, im not sure)
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 12:06   #54
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Re: Round 26 stats

truth is i mistook it for a Fi (as it is listed before CO) that makes FR a little bit better to play but still a lot of def is possible at no risk... and not sure about ETD being Cath cousins... but maybe the best way to balance Caths is to give emp ships to everybody
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 16:56   #55
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Re: Round 26 stats

If you are worried about all the zero loss def, just send some Arrowheads along. I would do that now and then. This also allows you to free up the Lancers for alliance def without changing the cloaked ship numbers.
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 03:11   #56
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Re: Round 26 stats

Nice one Gerbie.
still I hesitate between Xan (even though I hate Xan on Xan chicken games)
and Cath (being targeted by everybody is a real pain, but landing on everyone balance it nicely). Decision will depend on EMP power, is there a bcalc updated already ?
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 03:23   #57
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Re: Round 26 stats

Emp still isn't final and our apologies on that (actually it's mostly me apologising for tzu who is away this weekend, when he gets back we'll finalise them on hopefully monday or so). At this point I doubt there'll be more than a few tweaks as regards emp and maybe some small improvements as regards efficiencies for terran.
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 16:30   #58
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
Just because its "given" (to u atleast) doesnt mean u dont have to justify ur choices if they are criticised. Pretending like u know better than everyone else just makes u look like an ass hole.
Let me clear something up for you...

I am an asshole. I like fine wines, fine food, good whiskey. I look down on brutes who do not understand such finer points of life. Thank whatever god you may pray to that I wasn't born with JBG's money, as I'd be even worse if I wasn't from a workingclass background.

Now let me explain how I came to be like this(in regards to discussions such as this one). I was a helpful, understanding and very much liked person when I used to play *********. At some point, after having been patient and understanding for a few years, I came to point where I realized answering people and being polite about it has no effect. They learn nothing, and they keep on asking questions. I grew bitter and sarcastic, which is the person whom most of you have come to know from PIA and now from PA forums(my former persona on the PA strategy boards back when there were decent people to counter my arguments around here was quite different, a friendly jousting attitude if you may). I'm often thought off as arrogant. Yet it's only arrogance if you can't back it up. As JBG has stated so nicely, demonstrate your case in a way which proves to me/us that you've taken into consideration all the variables, and you'll get a civil answer. Until you do, you will know that you've yet to consider something as we do not bother explaining it to you. These are my rules, and they've actually done far more good than being civil ever did. Infact, they resulted in a complete newb hitting the calculator and learning, coming back as he learned for more guidance. I took great pride in the improvements that Mammoth showed over the course of my time at PIA staff, and infact I've come to miss him dearly as he was my EMP-calculator(this, for the record, is my excuse for not being arsed to calculate EMP by hand. I've never had to as Mammoth usually did my beckoning in accordance to what I told him I wanted).

Also, I recomend the marockan Tandem Syrah 2006 with strong meat dishes. Quite fulfilling. If you'll excuse me, the sauna is waiting, and after that I'm going to hit my Doublewood 12y/o with a vengeance.
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 17:54   #59
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Re: Round 26 stats

In the time you wrote that post, you couldve fixed stats, dramaqueen.
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 22:28   #60
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Re: Round 26 stats

I have a small request to the stats. Can we keep the ship names at 2 words at least? "Tzen Bolt Thrower"

I also think the "location" part of the Etd ship names are wasted. But I am a simple man who like the simple 1 word ship names

My 2c.

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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 22:40   #61
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragno
I have a small request to the stats. Can we keep the ship names at 2 words at least? "Tzen Bolt Thrower"
/signed

else good work on stats sun
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 23:30   #62
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Re: Round 26 stats

Every race seems playable to me. Nice stats
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Unread 23 Mar 2008, 08:54   #63
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragno
I have a small request to the stats. Can we keep the ship names at 2 words at least? "Tzen Bolt Thrower"
The TBT was actually requested by some oldschoolers as it holds great nostalgic value for some of us
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Unread 24 Mar 2008, 01:23   #64
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Re: Round 26 stats

It's doubtful I'll play this round, so haven't been following stats progression or beta testing...

After a quick glance, the stats look fair enough though. The Xan BS seems somewhat out of place though, and ETD look rather interesting.

Zik seem to be pretty ****ed at the start with no Fi or Co class kill ships.

I might have to play a beta round or two to see how everything plays out, but at least so far, I pretty much like the "different" direction taken with ship classes and targetting.
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Unread 24 Mar 2008, 01:45   #65
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Re: Round 26 stats

Cath look a bit weird in ships composition. No Fr, no DE, 3 BS...
Overall i think there are too many BS and not enough FI
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Unread 24 Mar 2008, 05:20   #66
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
The TBT was actually requested by some oldschoolers as it holds great nostalgic value for some of us
Well, TBT would be one "word", right? Given that everyone is going to call it that anyway .

On an aside: please recall that Strategy is a friendly place. If you abuse any other users, you might fall victim to my wrath. Like someone just did, then.

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Unread 24 Mar 2008, 11:41   #67
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese
After a quick glance, the stats look fair enough though. The Xan BS seems somewhat out of place though, and ETD look rather interesting.

Zik seem to be pretty ****ed at the start with no Fi or Co class kill ships.
The xanda BS is going back to old ideas, as xandas used to have a mobile pds in a bs-class ship which was mainly good for strengthening personal defense.

I've been expecting more people to be intrigued by the new ETD, but I guess the general concerns about having to play for flak has gotten more attention than the new racial identity we created.

Ziks are always a bit of an balancing-act between their potential and their starting place. I think we've gotten it quite good, if played well it has great potential, but it will actually be a quite demanding race to play next round. Early incomings may infact help some ziks off to a great start, as prodding out ships to steal your attackers will be quite effective.
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Unread 24 Mar 2008, 14:10   #68
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Re: Round 26 stats

well, after playing several Beta games, starting from scratch and late starting all as Cathaar.

I found that Cath Co are pretty strong but only on weaker targets, (generally). They can overcome this with lots of Beetle and a good ratio viper for the FR class.

Cath are hard to hit with Co attacks, and FR/DE the BS seems to have an edge though with even small numbers (in comparison) being able to roid for free.

Cath Cr is very good, and very hard to stop even with almost equal numbers on another Cath, the same is true of the Co class, where 200k beetle will quite happily stop a 350k Co attack.

ETD seem very weak as do zik, but as I havnt had the oportunity to play them, its hard to say definitively. Although not one ETD or Zik successfully landed on my Beta planet.

I will ask in #beta if i can sign up a new planet to test out the Zik or ETD.
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Unread 24 Mar 2008, 19:22   #69
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Re: Round 26 stats

Betas are worthless for gaining any kind of incite into race balance and playability. Just thought you should know. In fact, I'd argue it's harmful as people fail to account for all the aspects of the game that a faster tickspeed and less organize competitive situation fails to take into account.
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Unread 25 Mar 2008, 11:12   #70
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Re: Round 26 stats

The stats are final now incidentally. Except that zik sk having init 1. Hopefully we can change that :(

In general some things are worth bearing in mind when evaluating a beta that result from what tzu mentions. First of all emp is always going to be weaker than it seems. People just throw flak at cath incs until they go away and it works rather well. Secondly fi/co attack fleets are more powerful than they seem (or fr-bs is weaker if you want) as these fleets only have one tick for ally def to be organised against them. Thirdly (and obviously) the fleets with late inits are stronger than they seem. This is because you often end up landing up people in situations where in an actual round the defender would, quite probably, run his fleet.

Moving onto bigging myself and tzu up I really like the stats. I'd honestly consider going every race except terran (I despise going for the same race two rounds in a row). What do other people think?
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Unread 25 Mar 2008, 12:13   #71
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Re: Round 26 stats

Every race sure has sides about them that appeal to me(wether its attack capabilities or possible fleet compositions), and what race i choose is mainly down to 'my style of play' and what suits it best.
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Unread 25 Mar 2008, 12:22   #72
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Re: Round 26 stats

JBG et al; reckon it would be worth making a new thread to discuss the (now essentially finalised) stats, rather than continuing discussion here, as any new reader would need to go through two pages of implications for changes that didnt happen first?

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Unread 25 Mar 2008, 12:49   #73
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Moving onto bigging myself and tzu up I really like the stats. I'd honestly consider going every race except terran (I despise going for the same race two rounds in a row). What do other people think?
I've just started looking through them. I hate some of the ship names* for starters, but first impressions are pretty good. I will start another thread after having a look if there's not one there by then.



*I like having cool names. My choice for etd would be defender-guardian-stalwart for the EMP and arrowhead-lancer-broadsword-fireblade for cloak. I also prefer spider names for EMP and other insects for killers in cath. And I hate the name drake; pegasus, cerberus, barghest, manticore, whatever is cooler than what could be a male duck. And I prefer ghost names for xands. That is all.
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 12:33   #74
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
And I hate the name drake...whatever is cooler than what could be a male duck.
A drake in mythology is a smaller kin of dragons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Every race sure has sides about them that appeal to me(wether its attack capabilities or possible fleet compositions), and what race i choose is mainly down to 'my style of play' and what suits it best.
That was sort of the point. I also usually try to cater to most styles of play, however the I-Win playingstyle is usually left quite disappointed. I guess that's why people hate me...
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 12:41   #75
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
And I hate the name drake

also a spaceship in Freelancer the video game, and a Caldari Battle Cruiser in EVE Online. So yeah..been done before
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 16:26   #76
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Re: Round 26 stats

well looking from standpoints the races are ballanced however etd cr did kinda get the shaft
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 21:11   #77
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Re: Round 26 stats

ok, in between all the shit off topic replies you ppl are throwing at each other, i can't see much of a stats discussion.
the names may count, but at the end of the day, it's what the ships do and how effective they are that matters in the game play.
how do you see the race balance going out, what race will roid best and which one will get roided to the ground with every single attack they get?

i for one would be interested in going zik or etd, zik for the obvious possibilities it gives and etd for the nice emp/cloak combo, which sounds damn interesting it's just that i'm afraid too many retards will disconsider the cloaked ships and end up attacking you anyway (therefore pissing on the whole "fear what you can't see, zomg xan cloak is great" concept which most xans rely on for the first couple of weeks)
as to the exact math and numbers involved, got no clue if my choices would be backed up in a bcalc, but heck, at least sounds like a change so it can only be good fun(unless stats are terribly flawed-r17-but i'm expecting ppl have learned from that mistake, so i try not to bother with that option too much)
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 21:34   #78
Gerbie2
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Re: Round 26 stats

These are completely new stats, so I expect them to be quite unbalanced. The problem is that if it was easy to see the flaws, then they wouldn't make the mistakes. I don't like the cathaar. They look like too easy targets for me. I think Xan will do a lot better, being almost impossible to stop, although they are far from impossible to roid. I don't like the fact that some ships seem utterly useless. Terrans lack decent attack fleets.
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 21:51   #79
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Re: Round 26 stats

I quite like the stats.

I fear that the current setup for cath will continue the theme of dominant big caths and awful small caths. It still relies on having enough EMP to let the low A/C D/C killships get their shots off.

If I'm correct in this assessment (we'll see how it works in the round), I'd suggest that in future rounds we either boost the black widow's power or give them another ship like the scorpion; which is a ship that benefits smaller players almost as much as larger players.

If I'm wrong, then this post can be ignored.

EDIT: Oh, and I really like the theme change for the etd. The late init cloakers are an inspired idea and I think they've been horribly underrated. I wouldn't be averse to seeing a stealship or two return to their ranks in future rounds, but this is a more interesting concept. In fact, if cath prove unfixable and have to be abolished, etd may provide the perfect alternative.
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 22:21   #80
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Re: Round 26 stats

Wait, what, is Gate sucking up to JBG and Sun_Tzu now that he's joining Asc?
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Unread 26 Mar 2008, 22:46   #81
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Re: Round 26 stats

gate joining asc? are they indeed THAT strong? they HAVE to be #1 given the all stars lineup they are getting. I say everyone gangs up on them since we can't possibly let them get away with a win!!!!1111

or, talk about ships and what they will do to each other in r26 if the aforementioned dead horse has been beaten to a pulp
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Unread 28 Mar 2008, 12:31   #82
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Re: Round 26 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Wait, what, is Gate sucking up to JBG and Sun_Tzu now that he's joining Asc?
I've been joining Asc since r17. The Stoom just wasn't informed.


So the previous comments are genuine ones about the stats.
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Unread 28 Mar 2008, 13:59   #83
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Re: Round 26 stats

I like the stats. I read somewhere that unlike in the last round, we cath do not have ships like the old viper/scorpion that were untargetable by their targets. this is true but on the other hand the cath EMP ships are quite strong, so it balances out I find. Additionally, with these changes cath will be able to completely freeze their opponents in a 1on1, yet they can still remain targeted by extra defenders and I think that's exactly the thought behind the idea of an EMP race.
The new kill ships are definately an improvement. Also their weaknesses will not make cath too strong. And I think the new Etd are very nice too, the combination of cloaking and high armour/firepower is a good one while still having powerful EMP ships. I see no reason why Etd wouldn't be able to do well this round, maybe not as good as last round but then again their corvette fleets (vendors in particular) were overpowered so I think this brings back the balance.
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