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Unread 14 May 2007, 21:02   #51
Monroe
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh
Then you have cathaar.

Who gets ****ed daily with incomings cause the spider is utterly wank.
People say its effective but its not in a roiding fleet like the etds.

Cath also get screwed by the highest production time.

We dont stand a fking chance.

Ps we also screw ourselfs over, people say cr is insanely strong. It really isnt. ETDs have so much bs + some mara its a pull.

Scarabs work so well. 30k scarabs and the call is effectivly covered. you shit on the cr and then make it wipe your ass if its still standing.
Cath CR are a very tough balance. They were significantly stronger in the beta and it caused problems. Personally at this point I think they are close to balanced, given that there is only one ship (scarab) that can really 'stop' them without numbers. Spiders may in fact be a bit weak and can be looked at as a place to bolster caths if the current set of stats are used in the future.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 00:23   #52
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Given how last beta was played it was about as helpfull as trying to get a baby to drive a car. Emp generally causes 'problems' in beta's because its near impossible to get defence in time, which makes the (in theory) high stun ratio's alot more effective. Personally i think EMP has been tweaked down to insane low levels, and the only reason they can somewhat survive is because other races have quite a few decent ships to back the Cathaar EMP up. I think it is silly that in some cases EMP ships can't or barely stun over their own value, there are even kill ships around that perform better.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 05:50   #53
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Beta is simply a poor way to test statistical balance. What comes to the betatesting for this round, especially the private betatesting, I tend to agree with Wandows, even with more striking critisism. It was ridiculous, or even funny. There'd be people there who figured the balance is good (the serious stats balance testing on a beta environment?) because "LOL I PWNT". Going back to the subject, regarding the cathaar. In my opinion, to balance out EMP cathaar need a careful selection of strong defence ships (on the conventional damage side) to nudge it off. Round 17 saw a pretty decent setup for these. This helps counterfeit the EMP balance issues and comes up with a mentality of "whilst attacking, we stun, but we're prepared to kill for defending ourselves". The fluff is obviously secondary to the purpose itself.

On the current form of the steal, lowering a steal ship's initiative below that of any other ship (save structure killers and pods) whilst retaining to insane (550-550ish) damage and armor ratios is just insanity. After the steal was tweaked from neo-conventional (where there's no losses) to an altered form of conventional (kind of little gains), zikonians have actually been more overpowered than they were during some neo-conventional rounds. I seriously doubt this was the idea of the alteration. This isn't so much result of "best players picking up zikonian" but the fact that once zikonians host enough ships, the sheer damage and armor superiority makes them difficult targets. The fact that they lose ships on it too doesn't make shit all difference to the attacker, it's losses status quo. Just imagine an old-school terran (nowadays they fire before xandathrii, though) with damage per cost 500 in addition to high armors. Even if you bite a large chunk off, it still hits hard. This cycle should also help understand where terran fails partially. In case of their low-initiative ships, they're just reversed xandathriis - less damage, but they're able to take a huge beating, and fire first. In case of their high-initiative ships, they are, from a perspective of attacking them or defending against them, just like zikonian ships - except loads of weaker.

The last bit pretty much covers the terran failure. In combined with thief (who is ridiculed by the ship, other than myself?), it's a road down the disaster. Cathaars experience the problems Wandows mentioned, but I think there are viable ways of at least going closer to a balanced set with them. Xandathrii, on the other hand, mainly suffer from one strange twist. For this round, xandathrii armors have risen. The damages have risen a bit too. Yet, they're not on the first row. The traditional xandathrii-shoots-first has been replaced with xandathrii-shoots-last. Into a devastating effect in situations like the wyvern, for example. (Who feels itchy, other than me?). This results in the xandathrii ships first becoming something they really have never been like before. Second, this results in xandathrii partially (on the case of those ships) becoming a "weakened form" of old terran (you can't take as much beating, given you might shoot a little harder once you get to fire). The fact that things like tycoon fire before shadow (making it very viable for an eitrades to send structure-killers at a xandathrii, mind you) is another logic I completely fail to understand.

More attention needs to be paid to the self-defensive ability of the races, as the one that outshines the others here (as eitrades do this round, very much too heavily). Why this happens, has perhaps a lot to do how the game characterizes today. I think paying too much attention into a naive set of ideals of "every race can attack every race" which will probably never come really true on long run on a set of five races is wasting oxygen from where it could be used more creatively and usefully. To look at it, zikonians (due to the reasons mentioned) are strong defensively, as eitrades (I'll take it given, if someone disagrees I can go in-depth on it, but tycoon starts it good). The defensively weaker triad are being trampled tick to tick, while a large zikonian or eitrades will not get incomings.

Instead of attempting to generate one "brilliant, principled, non-trivial, marvelous" set of statistics over and over again through constant shuffling and baffling results, we should focus on generating one stable and solid set and slightly manipulating it to generate better results statisticswise for the round. After all, as Heartless said, the stats are there to create combat balance, not the game itself. They do play a vital role in the combat engine balance, though. I disagree with Monroe. I don't think this round's statistics fill their role as a balanced set that supports the combat engine. I think they're flawed, from the design intents to start with (the thief problem, the general zikonian characteristics, the eitrades' superior capabilities, tweaked down xandathrii [granted, I kind of failed to foresee this too, but good there's now hindsight to replace my over-rated views of xan - one out of five wrong], the cathaar issues discussed of [too much EMP, stacking kills, hence too easily flooded]). Lots of sore points, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
1. One goal was to try and force people to spread out their resources across ship classes so that it would be less advantagous to build 'monotone' fleets of just one or two classes and ignore the rest.
2. A second goal was to try and make every defensive ship useful against at least one attack fleet.
Where did the "everyone is able to attack everyone" -goal go to? Chimera is very useful. But I guess you didn't want to talk about stats building principles.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 15 May 2007 at 06:00.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 14:45   #54
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Beta is simply a poor way ... Lots of sore points, in my opinion.
.
These are all valid points in my opinion, but the good news is I don't believe any of them are fatal flaws -- in the sense that with some careful tweaking they can't be fixed. In hind site the low eta thief appears to have been a mistake, and that tweak alone to ziks makes their lives a lot tougher if thiefs fire after harpies (and significantly strengthen's terrans).

I still think cath are fairly well balanced overall, given they have an advantage no one else has, namely an attack fleet that shoots at everything that shoots at it. This being said EMP could be jacked back up some for next round.

Also a minor modification to Xan init could make them a lot stronger, if the merchant is weakened further the xan FI attack fleet becomes much more viable, especially if the phantom is set to fire before etd CO.

Plus with some general strengthening of terran, and perhaps some init tweaks for them and they become a lot more viable. I'm not really sure what to do about the chimera, it was the most difficult ship to work out, and I admit it was pretty much a failure, suggestions are more then welcome.

---------------------
One comment on betas, betas can provide some useful stats balancing, but only if you carefully use the info gathered from battle reports. As both wandows ans keizari point out, the majority of beta testing of stats is pretty useless, but it does serve some value in showing ship strength and weaknesses. If we had gone with my inital stats rather then the ones we tested things with in the beta, this round would have probably have been a lot worse.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 16:03   #55
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
In hind site the low eta thief appears to have been a mistake, and that tweak alone to ziks makes their lives a lot tougher if thiefs fire after harpies (and significantly strengthen's terrans).
Yeah. This was pointed out numerous times pre-round, and during the private beta. Perhaps the next time we develop statistics we'll pay more attention to points like this, as the "mistake" is obviously of very trivial nature and could be spotted a mile away and resolved very fast. Of course, it would demolish your plan on "every race being able to attack every race" at first glance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I still think cath are fairly well balanced overall, given they have an advantage no one else has, namely an attack fleet that shoots at everything that shoots at it. This being said EMP could be jacked back up some for next round.
I disagree. I don't think you should strive to balance by nominally defeating a flaw by pumping up an ability (here: attempting to repair the difficulties holding roids by giving an overpowered attack fleet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Also a minor modification to Xan init could make them a lot stronger, if the merchant is weakened further the xan FI attack fleet becomes much more viable, especially if the phantom is set to fire before etd CO.
This sounds like another sort of repair in the lines of "because they can't hold on to roids, let's make it easier for them to gain roids". I don't like it. The frigate fleet gains roids rather comfortably, the problem is holding on to them (Check 10:8:7 as a prime example of #1 roids lost #1 total roids, and compare it to eitrades planets for example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Plus with some general strengthening of terran, and perhaps some init tweaks for them and they become a lot more viable. I'm not really sure what to do about the chimera, it was the most difficult ship to work out, and I admit it was pretty much a failure, suggestions are more then welcome.
Regarding initiative tweaks, the most devastating one, the harpy, has been discussed a lot already.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
One comment on betas, betas can provide some useful stats balancing, but only if you carefully use the info gathered from battle reports.
Possibly. It is probably possible to shuffle the statistics in a private beta, but I personally think (well, comes close to a private beta too) a handpicked statistics team would do a better job - there's no need for random more or less competent support team members. Battle reports can also be created with battle calculators. The most blatant issues should be spotted without any "testing", anyways.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 16:03   #56
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe


Also a minor modification to Xan init could make them a lot stronger, if the merchant is weakened further the xan FI attack fleet becomes much more viable, especially if the phantom is set to fire before etd CO.
I very much disagree with the above and so do the statistics it would seem:
http://www.sandmans.co.uk/?p=rankpla...st&order2=DESC

Xan isnt weak on the attacking front so making merchant weaker doesnt really benefit xans that much considering the fact that etds tend to go after xans with battleships mostly. The only problem xans are hence really facing is their complete inability to hold roids, which on most occasions wouldnt be fixable by 'minor modifications' as claimed except maybe in bomber's case where the initiative is all there is to it.

EDIT: my bad having the link to total round roids listing while i ment to show total lost roids listing

Last edited by Dopec; 15 May 2007 at 16:39.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 16:36   #57
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Also a minor modification to Xan init could make them a lot stronger, if the merchant is weakened further the xan FI attack fleet becomes much more viable, especially if the phantom is set to fire before etd CO.
I'm not sure about altering the Phantom init to fire before etd CO - that would merely permit the Wraith to fire after merchants have fired, thus encouraging merchants to flee. I think that would make the xan attacking fleet too powerful, rather than their major problems; namely, effectively having to throw in the towel when anything resembling a CR or BA attack fleet pops up on the radar; which every night it does, again and again and again and again and again. Initiative to fix, or "ships" to fix in general would be the Spectre mainly; firing after Wyvern at a very un-Xan like Initiative and very un-Xan like firepower whilst still having reletive Xan like armour just makes the a total pain to build. Mine keep dying - i dont know how top players handle it. If the Shadow's EMP resistance was raised a little (*just* greater than the rise in firepower that the roach needs) would go a long way to stopping Xans being total roid farms for two thirds of the universe. One or both of those changes would make Xan be able to keep their roids than for more than 12 hours - unlike i can manage to do at the moment .

Quote:
Plus with some general strengthening of terran, and perhaps some init tweaks for them and they become a lot more viable. I'm not really sure what to do about the chimera, it was the most difficult ship to work out, and I admit it was pretty much a failure, suggestions are more then welcome.
If its shit, delete it. If the chimera isnt effective in the role you envisaged, change the role. Either make it a good low eta universal def ship, or make it another cruiser that would assist DE fleets whilst the Syren was a CR that assisted BA fleets, or whatever. At the moment, it doesnt do anything at all, except perhaps die. And even then, it still manages to stuff it all up .
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Unread 15 May 2007, 16:54   #58
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I can't hold onto roids for shit this round either. The round started off by losing my entire Fi fleet several times in a row to--you guessed it--thieves. I thought their initiative was "interesting" at first, but it proves to be WAY out of line in practice.

Kinda scary when most Ziks have more Xan Fi than the average Xan does.

The Frigate fleet is indeed good, but the Shadow's damage is too low, and the Spectre's initiative is just flat out silly.

Xan are supposed to be high damage, low armor, low initiative...but somehow this has gotten lost in the endless tweaking of stats
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Unread 15 May 2007, 18:49   #59
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Rather then respond to the issues raised above I want to pose a question, because I feel all of the issues commented on since my last post all have a single thing at their root.
What is more important, individual races being able to hold onto roids or individual races being able to steal roids? This is a very important question relative to the direction of stats, and of PA in general. These two goals are, from a stats point of view, at odds with each other. From a stats point of view a stats maker is forced to emphasize one or the other, both cannot be true (at least in any set of stats I've ever seen).

In my personal experiance the worst thing that ever happened to the game stats wise is when it became very difficult for races to roid each other. The game became very stagnent and the player base became very frustrated and allies had a terrible time motivating their members to join attacks, because they so rarely landed. With that in mind I (and at least the last couple of rounds of stats makers) have taken the perspective that it is better to make races that can roid well then it is to make races that hold onto roids well. This is why you get admitedly funky ships like the spectre (which I personally have found useful, but others have obviously not), and some non standard initiatives (thiefs, wyverns, etc).

[edit]
One other note, from a game economics standpoint, it is better to have a flow of capital (roids) then stagnation of capital. It is the flow of capital resources that funds growth and keeps an economy robust. Monitary systems that limit the flow of capital lead to a focusing of capital resources which stagnates economic growth, and leads to a much wider dispairity of wealth. What this means in PA terms, is if it is easy to hang onto roids, roids will be even more quickly gathered by the top players, leaving fewer roids at the bottom and lead to a wider gap in scores between the top and bottom players in the universe. Which would be a bad thing in my opinion.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 19:39   #60
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
What is more important, individual races being able to hold onto roids or individual races being able to steal roids? This is a very important question relative to the direction of stats, and of PA in general. These two goals are, from a stats point of view, at odds with each other. From a stats point of view a stats maker is forced to emphasize one or the other, both cannot be true (at least in any set of stats I've ever seen).
In my opinion, they're not mutually exclusive. The ever-mentioned, by me, round 17 statistics, come close with both aspects. In regards to the question which one is more important in modern planetarion, though, I think this is pretty much my opinion summarized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keizari
The ship statistics, in their current form, are tad more attack biased. Defending is possible, but gets very much more difficult than it did in rounds like 17. If we anticipate a value round, the result of weaker defense grids, would be that the few that are able to hold on to their asteroids will come out on top of things. On a XP round, it would be different, but as written, I’ve forgone the possibility of another XP heavy round. Second, the decline in the rewards of defending (regardless of the recently increased XP gains for defending, up to 300 shared amongst defenders) and the corrosion of the community (I would need to write another essay to talk about the corrosion of community in Planetarion scheme) have basically resulted in green fleets becoming even scarcer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
In my personal experiance the worst thing that ever happened to the game stats wise is when it became very difficult for races to roid each other. The game became very stagnent and the player base became very frustrated and allies had a terrible time motivating their members to join attacks, because they so rarely landed.
You felt that's the worst thing ever? How about rounds 20 and 16? I think they'd beat any "stagnant" round to the contest for the crappiest round ever. A lot of people might agree that it wasn't the XP formulae alone that pulled the trigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
With that in mind I (and at least the last couple of rounds of stats makers) have taken the perspective that it is better to make races that can roid well then it is to make races that hold onto roids well. This is why you get admitedly funky ships like the spectre (which I personally have found useful, but others have obviously not), and some non standard initiatives (thiefs, wyverns, etc).
Yes. But this isn't an excuse to completely **** up an ability (such as the current steal), when you should definately see what will happen if you make a damage 550 armor 550ish ship fire before it's prime opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
[edit]
One other note, from a game economics standpoint, it is better to have a flow of capital (roids) then stagnation of capital. It is the flow of capital resources that funds growth and keeps an economy robust. Monitary systems that limit the flow of capital lead to a focusing of capital resources which stagnates economic growth, and leads to a much wider dispairity of wealth.
Must be one of the clumsiest allegories I've seen. From an economics point of view, through accumulating capitol often come scale economics, which makes production more cost-effective. This is a good thing, as economies that work more effective are more competitive. If you make it hard or impossible (to hold on to roids) to attain a position in the market where you're (temporarily) in control (as a monopoly), firms lose their incentive (see: round 20, round 16) and competition fumbles. Production goes less efficient as there's no incentive to try work hard in R&D for example in order to gain a temporary uphand on the market (through an invention, or something), in order to gain supernatural profits.

WHAT?

Nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
What this means in PA terms, is if it is easy to hang onto roids, roids will be even more quickly gathered by the top players, leaving fewer roids at the bottom and lead to a wider gap in scores between the top and bottom players in the universe. Which would be a bad thing in my opinion.
Richard Sennett's corrosion of character is a book about how modern capitalistic attitude consumes people. The never-ending roidswapping and the impossibility to hold on to roids in order to build a base for your planet's growth towards top ranks (insert piss poor Richard Sennett allegory) makes people feel loose, and corrodes cooperation. What this means in Planetarion terms, is, that people are less interested in working in traditional alliance cooperation methods, defence fleets get scarcer, roles of alliances dimunish, and the community suffers. After all, there greatest thrill of life is social contacts (another bad corrosion of character allegory), the reduction and pushing these down will eventually kill the game.

Want more silly allegories?

If you want, I can continue to write an Emile Durkheim type of allegory regarding the book Suicide and how Planetarion kills itself and why.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 05:59   #61
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Most active ziks manage quite quickly to steal good anti fr though.

Yeah, that`s the way of the true ziks -> STEALING FTW
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Unread 18 May 2007, 06:49   #62
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I have tried my hardest but my current amount of tycoons is 0
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Unread 18 May 2007, 08:17   #63
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Anti Fr is NOT easy to steal.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 09:23   #64
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

well the problem for xans with merchants is that they are too cheap and too effective vs xan fi, most etd is selfcovered vs most xan fi by now and still have a big bs fleet to attack (xans) with and the xans cant invest a large amount of their fleetvalue in spectres as they gets a weak fr attackfleet. not to mention the etd sk that can join in the bs on xans for free as the bs fires before xan fr.

remove etd from the game until you can sort the stats. you cant have a rece with all the pro from other races if they get it, it should atleast be whorse at stealing, cloaking and emp than the normal races.

bah
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Unread 18 May 2007, 09:54   #65
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

terrans - good attackwise, suck def wise (their anti fr def rox though)

zik - tbh they are ok, like every round they need to steal some ships + they got nice fake options

etd - totally overpowered in my eyes, too good attackwise + defwise combined

xan - good attackwise, suck too much vs fr and bs, especially bs - i mean since when do xan ships have so shit initiatives...thats totally against the concept

cath - their cr is good, though they aren´t that good def wise like they used to be and should for making up being freeze only most of it
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Unread 18 May 2007, 12:57   #66
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Xan are meant to lend themselves towards building value slowly and gradually building yourself into a powerhouse by the end of the round. While I've had to change my tactics slightly to achieve this because someone decided to make them leak roids like a sieve by ****ing up their initiative and in some case their damage, I've done so. But cheers to whoever did the stats for completely missing the point of xandathrii and making my round far more difficult than it needed to be.

Etd - ridiculously overpowered, Etd planets are pretty much like brick walls if they are managed properly and they can gain large numbers of roids with relative ease.

Terran - now a pointless race because you can get similar gains off Etd except with Etd you can defend those gains. With XP nailed you might as well get rid, although they are still the best roiding race.

Zikonian seem to be a fair race, they are pretty much you make of them, although maybe xan's weaknesses help them a bit.

As for Cathaar, they are pretty much par for the course, although maybe are slightly (but not much at all) underpowered.

Overall these are a reasonably competent set of stats that warrant reuse. Tweaks need to be made to make them really good. I don't think these are bad stats necessarily. The ****ing up of xan is their biggest crime really.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 14:03   #67
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I'm not sure if its because Xan are all that underpowered* - i think its more of a problem with their weaknesses stacking with all of their other weaknesses, against target classes that about 2/3 of the universe use as attack fleets (Cath, Terran, Etd and many Ziks use CR and/or BA fleets - that's alot to be totally vulnerable against).

The main problem really is ETD again; they are too good in attack and defence. If ETD wasnt so strong, Xan might be able to live a bit better, making it just tough enough for Ziks, etc. I do agree though; these stats arent too bad for a base point to move on with. That, or pre ETD R17.

*see my earlier points; xan only needs to be strengthened *slightly* else they'll be unbalanced.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 17:15   #68
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

why did you think removing the init advantage xans always had is a good thing?

ps correction to my first post - terran anti fr is good, but only vx xan fr (making xan again worse
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Unread 18 May 2007, 17:52   #69
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Sorry if I am repeating myself, but a quick reply to UN.

The alterations needed to improve these stats are minor - improve the init on a xan ship somewhere, weaken Etd perhaps on EMP efficiency and perhaps increase XP by a smallish percentage to make Terran a better option.

If I sounded harsh in my post it's because this is SD so I set standards high, because they should be and the deficiencies of xan are a little frustrating. However, I think Monroe can be pleased with these stats. They are very adequate despite their obvious flaws.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 19:42   #70
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

i think xp is strongenough.

seeing someone able to land 340k losses for 500 roids on me today and make like 500k score was sickening.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 21:37   #71
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I'm a bit suprised at all the people complaining about "the point of Xan". Since when is it set in stone that Xan has to have small, low-init, high-damage, low-armor ships?

That said, I do recognise the difference between changing a race and nerfing a race, and in this case, the latter has occurred.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 21:46   #72
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I'm a bit suprised at all the people complaining about "the point of Xan". Since when is it set in stone that Xan has to have small, low-init, high-damage, low-armor ships?

That said, I do recognise the difference between changing a race and nerfing a race, and in this case, the latter has occurred.

thats the sense of races though or? should bring some stable factor into stats with each race having specific pros and cons (and xans were always like that i even remember the manual saying so
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Unread 18 May 2007, 22:07   #73
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

When the races came out they all had their general advantages and disadvantages and I believe they should be kept in mind to give the races their unique flavour and style. If you make it a hodge podge which seems to be happening then things become unecessarily complicated.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 22:19   #74
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

You miss the point. "It has always been this way" is no argument against change.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 00:33   #75
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

The frustration for xans is this: we have decent attack fleets, which we are more than happy with and some decent defence ships, with some rather gaping holes. You can have xans playing better rounds than Etds but not do nearly as well as Etd is generally a better race all round.

You might say go Etd, but xan suits the conservative way i like to play.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 01:31   #76
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I think XP is fine. It's a good play style and fun to do for a change. The ships you'll lose doing it (depending on how suicidal/unlucky with defence you get)don't rebuild instantly, and with a crappy value from crashing you'll have a tough time holding on to any roids you do get, so I think that adds a fun challenge-factor to it.

I'm not most experienced player, but I'm finding that playing as an XP whore is pretty fun, it has it's moments. With a low-score galaxy I'm not going to get very far trying to play normal, so hell, why not whore it up, I do it on IRC all the time.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 05:32   #77
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I'm in general agreement with Lokken. Xans generally still have low init, the problem is etd, which has really tweaked xans this round (and other races in general). In my opinion the only xan ship that doesn't fall in the general theme of xans is the spectre. This ships was introduced as is to make it at least theoretically useful. I personally as an xan have found them quite useful in numbers against etd. As I have stated before (and others now as well) sometimes you have to make racial compromises to get the overall set of stats to balance. I really tried hard to remain true to the traditional themes of each race, with varying degrees of success.

My main goal was to bring balance, sometimes I succeeded, other times I clearly did not. But I also agree with Lokken and Sov that with some careful tweaks this set could be significantly better balanced. As to what tweaks make the most sense.... that's the subject of this thread.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 06:36   #78
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I'm a bit suprised at all the people complaining about "the point of Xan". Since when is it set in stone that Xan has to have small, low-init, high-damage, low-armor ships?
Well, whilst this has traditionally been the case, i think the major problem that lok (and i) were talking about is that presently xan are not this; some of their major ships (like the spectre) are smallish, low armour, low damage and poor init. Xan, as a race generally, rely on firing first in order to reduce the amount of returning fire because their armour is so poor they cant handle the truth. If you have a weakly armoured ship firing after a conventionally armoured ship and both have roughly the same (bad) firepower, clearly that's going to result in the weak ship being totally written off given the current combat engine.

Thus, if you're going to have a low armoured xan ship, give it the good xan init/firepower to compensate. Initiative is important, but particularly so for Xans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
In my opinion the only xan ship that doesn't fall in the general theme of xans is the spectre. This ships was introduced as is to make it at least theoretically useful. I personally as an xan have found them quite useful in numbers against etd. As I have stated before (and others now as well) sometimes you have to make racial compromises to get the overall set of stats to balance. I really tried hard to remain true to the traditional themes of each race, with varying degrees of success.
Oh yes, i totally understand that. I can see that you were trying to mix things up a little to get out of those hard race boxes by giving Thieves and Wyvern improved initiative whilst giving the Spectre (reletive for a Xan ship, not quite so for all the others) more armour, and so on. The principle isnt bad, its just that it kinda makes it a little "too" easy/hard for some races depending on perspective.

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Unread 19 May 2007, 08:13   #79
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, whilst this has traditionally been the case, i think the major problem that lok (and i) were talking about is that presently xan are not this; some of their major ships (like the spectre) are smallish, low armour, low damage and poor init. Xan, as a race generally, rely on firing first in order to reduce the amount of returning fire because their armour is so poor they cant handle the truth. If you have a weakly armoured ship firing after a conventionally armoured ship and both have roughly the same (bad) firepower, clearly that's going to result in the weak ship being totally written off given the current combat engine.

Thus, if you're going to have a low armoured xan ship, give it the good xan init/firepower to compensate. Initiative is important, but particularly so for Xans.
Very true. My point was that Xan has been both nerfed and changed, but the latter is not necessarily the bad thing here, it's the first that bothers me.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 14:38   #80
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Very true. My point was that Xan has been both nerfed and changed, but the latter is not necessarily the bad thing here, it's the first that bothers me.
I don't really see how they have been totally 'nerfed' they are really only vulnerable to 4 attack fleets, two BS, one CR, and one FR. Other then terran BS all of those attack fleets are beatable by fairly easily out flaking them. The only fleet that is pretty much unstoppable is terran BS, which are in very short supply this round.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 14:58   #81
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

well as long as you needs to invest a large part of you fleetvalue for anti bs just to stop an average etd incomming you never gonna be able to have enough fi to roid them back
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Unread 19 May 2007, 15:48   #82
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't really see how they have been totally 'nerfed' they are really only vulnerable to 4 attack fleets, two BS, one CR, and one FR. Other then terran BS all of those attack fleets are beatable by fairly easily out flaking them. The only fleet that is pretty much unstoppable is terran BS, which are in very short supply this round.
I never used the word 'totally'.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 18:09   #83
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't really see how they have been totally 'nerfed' they are really only vulnerable to 4 attack fleets, two BS, one CR, and one FR. Other then terran BS all of those attack fleets are beatable by fairly easily out flaking them. The only fleet that is pretty much unstoppable is terran BS, which are in very short supply this round.
thats simply not true

a xan just can´t have enough spectre to stop etd bs inc alone

same with bombers and xan fr inc
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Unread 19 May 2007, 20:06   #84
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't really see how they have been totally 'nerfed' they are really only vulnerable to 4 attack fleets, two BS, one CR, and one FR. Other then terran BS all of those attack fleets are beatable by fairly easily out flaking them. The only fleet that is pretty much unstoppable is terran BS, which are in very short supply this round.
Xandathrii frigates are beatable fairly easily by outflaking them? On which planet?
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Unread 19 May 2007, 23:48   #85
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Assuming you can get your hands on large amounts of Vipers i guess he is right...
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Unread 20 May 2007, 01:42   #86
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't really see how they have been totally 'nerfed' they are really only vulnerable to 4 attack fleets, two BS, one CR, and one FR.
Plus all the ziks with stolen CR/BA, which i think is probably at least a third of all their fleets sent around the place .

So, Xan are (quite to very) vulnerable to Terrans, Caths, Etd, Xans, and Ziks. Given that the whole universe can attack them, i think Xandathrii are doing much better than they really should be doing - perhaps they'll fall off the pace as the end of the round draws near.
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Unread 20 May 2007, 03:04   #87
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Plus all the ziks with stolen CR/BA, which i think is probably at least a third of all their fleets sent around the place .

So, Xan are (quite to very) vulnerable to Terrans, Caths, Etd, Xans, and Ziks. Given that the whole universe can attack them, i think Xandathrii are doing much better than they really should be doing - perhaps they'll fall off the pace as the end of the round draws near.
I personally have 200k CO, 3/4 of which are bombers, almost no FR hit me. But the reason xan are doing so well is they are still very good on attack, and if they can find defense hanging onto roids isn't so hard. They will need some tweaking for next round of course, but I think a few relatively minor initiative changes will balance them out nicely.

I guess if you want to look at a race as an individual unit, without the chance of defense, Xan have some fairly large holes, but since this game is designed to be played with other races, and to pit racial strengths and weakness off against eachother, xans who are in allies and galaxies that will offer them defense can do just fine, same for caths and ziks. The only ones who really get screwed this round are the well documented terrans.
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Unread 20 May 2007, 08:35   #88
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
They will need some tweaking for next round of course, but I think a few relatively minor initiative changes will balance them out nicely.
So, what other races will need "some tweaking". Terrans will. Cathaars most evidently will. Zikonians will (HI THIEF). Eitrades will, won't they? There's awfully lots of "some tweaking" going to be going on once you head on to it. And the first thing that will die during your tweaking spree is your noble idea of "every race can attack every race" (which is the one that you used to defend your stats against "some tweaking" pre-round. which is the one that you used to deny changes on the harpy-thief duo). A bleeder, isn't it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I guess if you want to look at a race as an individual unit, without the chance of defense, Xan have some fairly large holes, but since this game is designed to be played with other races, and to pit racial strengths and weakness off against eachother, xans who are in allies and galaxies that will offer them defense can do just fine, same for caths and ziks. The only ones who really get screwed this round are the well documented terrans.
You shouldn't, anymore, by default, see races as a "puzzle" of alliance defences and galaxy defences. This will result in you generating stats where one race is an excellent choice (because it's self-defensive ability is immense), and another race is a very poor choice (because it's self-defensive ability is abysmal, even if it'd have good attack fleets). A prime example of this is the fact that it's still been argued that the terran attackfleets are very good (if not the best, as lokken said), but terran can't hold on to roids to start with. This would figure that "oh yes, alliance and galaxy to compensate for it". Yet, eitrades, with lesser attack fleets (perhaps the worst save zikonians), but immensely overpowered self-defensive puzzle are roaming.

The ones that are really screwed this round are the statistics at large.



ps. I'm tiny. And I have enough nightmares to mash more than twice your corvettes. You should pay more attention to the "total round roids" and "lost roids" statistics, instead of the current standing of your planet (which is fat, over 1000 roids, and not top100, with nigh 2mil value - expect a bumrapery very soon). If you have 8 xandathriis in the top10 total lost roids, and 5 in the total roids, with zero eitrades in the top10 lost roids (yeah, there are no terrans either, but they've never experienced having enough roids to lose so many). "Minor tweaks", it's "all good".

Last edited by Tietäjä; 20 May 2007 at 08:41.
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Unread 20 May 2007, 09:18   #89
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

well i can kill 200k co and lots of xans can that too so its not an option to risk all those ships if not haveing def so they are useless to have
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Unread 20 May 2007, 10:11   #90
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

A few points on the race I am using this round, Xan.

1) Weakness vs other xan Fr. This is the one truly unstoppable attack fleet that xan face. I don't especially object to this, after all it works both ways. I pretty much exclusively attack xans (occasional Zik) and I rarely even unit scan them. No need since only the most suicidal of maniacs could ever stop me and suicidal maniacs can only stop 1 fleet before their anti Fr is decimated.

2) Weakness to Cr. This isn't especially bad given the defence is Fr based and thus a roiding ship anyway. This generally allows for 1 other FR fleet defence to cover. Xans who failed to choose primarily Fr this round made a tactical blunder that is not the responsibility of the stat maker. I would object to making CR emp more powerful however, it's quite good enough as it is. If changes need to be made to Cat emp it should be on the defensive (non roiding fleet) side.

3) Weakness to Bs. This is genuinely a problem but one I feel is easily fixed. If the Ghost were to be made relevant (anyone currently sporting a ~Ghost fleet should be shot) it would allow for easier flakking to defend vs Broker. If this was to be combined with matching Wyvern and Spectre inits so both fire at the same time it would address the issue without making xan unroidable.

Overall I am happy with my race though they are obviously not the powerhouse that Etd are. To me this is much more an overpowered Etd issue than an underpowered Xan one. With an appropriate correction to the Xan De fleet and a slight lowering of Broker/Merchant emp efficiency Xan would be very playable for a Top10 rank. Something I may yet (though very doubtfully now) achieve this round.

edit: Replaced Haunt with Ghost. Thanks to Keizari for pointing out the blunder quickly!

Last edited by Achilles; 20 May 2007 at 10:48.
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Unread 20 May 2007, 10:20   #91
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If changes need to be made to Cat emp it should be on the defensive (non roiding fleet) side.
Indeed. And in my opinion, more in R19/R17 fashion where cathaar had proper zero-loss kill defence ships to keep the fleet in boundaries. Something like this could work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
3) Weakness to Bs. This is genuinely a problem but one I feel is easily fixed. If the Haunt were to be made relevant (anyone currently sporting a Haunt fleet should be shot) it would allow for easier flakking to defend vs Broker. If this was to be combined with matching Wyvern and Spectre inits so both fire at the same time it would address the issue without making xan unroidable.
A relevant structurekiller? (Except for the unstoppable liquidator, that spams xandathriis dead).
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Unread 20 May 2007, 10:45   #92
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

My apologies, I meant Ghost. I will record my nubishness here and amend the above post!
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Unread 20 May 2007, 11:01   #93
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Ghost is semi-relevant, as terran destroyers are very rare. In fact, I've never had more than two banshees, and yet I've never had a terran destroyer incoming. Even with the ghosts flak, the battleships still tend to get the gripes of me, although frigate incomings are way more common.
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Unread 21 May 2007, 19:52   #94
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

If I may point out some statistical stuff.

In terms of top 500 spots, xandathrii and zikonian are actually the best performers, suggesting that eitrades have some other factor; perhaps they rely on luck or skill to achieve a high rank leaving little margin for error? I have no idea what fleet makeups etc are like this round, but I think looking top 500 is worth consideration, as well as top 100.

And for the round 17 cath; giving them decent killships worked quite well IMO. The scorpion was a bit iffy, but I'd recommend considering it as a way to try and balance out cath again.
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Unread 21 May 2007, 20:14   #95
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
If I may point out some statistical stuff.

In terms of top 500 spots, xandathrii and zikonian are actually the best performers, suggesting that eitrades have some other factor; perhaps they rely on luck or skill to achieve a high rank leaving little margin for error? I have no idea what fleet makeups etc are like this round, but I think looking top 500 is worth consideration, as well as top 100.
All that top 500 spots indicate is which races the top 10 alliances' players go for. Xan and Zik are natural targets for them - and there's about 100 more planets of each of those two races than of Eitraides.

The top 100 stats are the best indicator of which race is performing best in a round, because to hold a top 100 spot your planet needs to be competitive against all the other races. Eitraides have 43% of the top 100 planets - that's not luck. Terran and Cathaar combined have only 13% of the top 100 panets - that's not just bad luck either.
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Unread 21 May 2007, 21:58   #96
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

I would concur with furball, the t100 gives you a much better representation of the balance between races, especially when it is really out of whack like it is for terran, and to some extent cathaar.
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Unread 21 May 2007, 22:03   #97
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
And for the round 17 cath; giving them decent killships worked quite well IMO. The scorpion was a bit iffy, but I'd recommend considering it as a way to try and balance out cath again.
From an overall balance perspective I would think it would make more sense to up their EMP efficiencies then it would to give them another kill ship. The reason they are short a kill ship this round was because they were actually less effective in the beta with 2 kill ships then with 1. This is because (and admittedly this is a bit of a design flaw) both of the cath attack fleets needed to deal with FR in order to be effective. Because of this both vipers and roaches needed to be EMP, otherwise caths fired second and got destroyed, making one or the other attack fleet very difficult to use. This isn't to say that caths shouldn't be reworked, but at least within the current stats scheme I think it would make more sense to up EMP efficiencies rather then switch one of the anti FR ships to kill.

Edit: This IS to say however, cath attack fleets really need to be EMP, whether or not their defense fleets need to be. This has been pointed out previously in this thread, but I would like to state my agreement with this perspective.
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Unread 22 May 2007, 01:43   #98
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Suggesting that cat offensive emp needs to be increased is insane. Atm most Cats under my bash have enough Roach to roid me and only my stockpile (ie potential ships) keeps me safe. No Cat chooses primarily Co anyway as it's defensively defunct. Every single shipclass a race has can't be "uber", that is the very antithesis of balance.
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Unread 22 May 2007, 05:06   #99
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
From an overall balance perspective I would think it would make more sense to up their EMP efficiencies then it would to give them another kill ship.
Why would switching to kill help more than pumping up EMP? It's not about switching "one of the anti-fr ships to kill". Say, it's about generating a kill zero losser that stops a fleet or two at the walls. This will balance out the bumps cathaars suffer with the fleet composition (ie. you need to stun all, not just a quarter, and stun a lot to be viably self-sufficient: we see it with eitrades. tycoon hits out two frig fleets and the broker being an attack ship works great in attack and stops out two destroyer fleets. merchant is very strong, and the rest of the ships are relatively decent killships, there's a zero-losser against each battleship to start with, you can safely send structurekillers against certain races, and so on). The scorpion-mantis scheme r19 would be an ideal example. Little resources invested, large gains. Other races have access to similar zero-loss killers, forcing cathaar to play with zero-loss EMPrs is ****ed.

What was speculated with this set during betas had nothing to do with how I'm trying to describe it, and how Gate "kind of" handled it.

ps. the scorpion was really just 10-20 dmp (at the listing of that time) above being "balanced".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Suggesting that cat offensive emp needs to be increased is insane.
I don't believe that's being said. I think the main problem is, regarding the modern type of planetarion, the severe roid leakage. The cathaar fleet composition issues could be partly fixed with kill defence ships, which has been seen more or less successfully over two rounds.
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Unread 22 May 2007, 06:07   #100
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Re: R21 Stats Comments

Quote:
I don't believe that's being said. I think the main problem is, regarding the modern type of planetarion, the severe roid leakage. The cathaar fleet composition issues could be partly fixed with kill defence ships, which has been seen more or less successfully over two rounds.
Agreed 100%
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