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Unread 1 Dec 2010, 17:38   #51
Raging.Retard
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Im just disappointed that when Imp decided to be crap, Asc didnt bother trying but instead quit with there remaining players hitting a training alliance.
Asc turned on Imp the very same night they announced they were going to be Apprime's bitch. It just didn't last long enough. Imp reducing themselves to very little inc made it far easier for them to cover attacks, and the Asc members started idling because the fate of the round was pretty much over (App at #1, and Imp "winning" 2nd place).

The Horde story unfolded later as something to do for the few Asc that still wanted to play this crap fest of a round.
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Unread 1 Dec 2010, 20:49   #52
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Raging.Retard View Post
Asc turned on Imp the very same night they announced they were going to be Apprime's bitch.
LOL you mean those 2 waves Asc launched on me and hylands that night? after having ND and CT draw our def with 6 waves... don't make me laugh
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Unread 2 Dec 2010, 00:55   #53
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
can we really trust the community not to all flock to 1 alliance if we got rid of the tag limit? or 2 big alliances who nap, then theres not enough people left to block against them. .
Frankly I don't trust some of the PA community enough to have limitless alliance tags.... due to "support planets" usage.
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Unread 2 Dec 2010, 06:48   #54
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
but everyone else being crap, is not an excuse or a reason for Asc to be crap. Im just disappointed that when Imp decided to be crap, Asc didnt bother trying but instead quit with there remaining players hitting a training alliance. For the past 8ish rounds, ive come to look at Asc as an alliance which punishes those alliances who play shit.. So Its just a shock to see how much Asc has fallen in terms of skill, strategy, and politics.
I'm sorry to say this, but the PA universe is not Ascendancy's responsability. We're here for our very own entertainment, just like everyone else.

I, for one, don't bother as much with the game anymore. I haven't seriously tried to roid in maybe a week, the only :fun: I can get is in some random FC or solo covering some inc with my CO fleet. So that's exactly what I'm doing now.
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Unread 2 Dec 2010, 20:32   #55
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by ricoshay View Post
I'm sorry to say this, but the PA universe is not Ascendancy's responsability. We're here for our very own entertainment, just like everyone else.

I, for one, don't bother as much with the game anymore. I haven't seriously tried to roid in maybe a week, the only :fun: I can get is in some random FC or solo covering some inc with my CO fleet. So that's exactly what I'm doing now.
It's a free game so everyone can play how they want it, i fully agree with you
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Unread 2 Dec 2010, 22:07   #56
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
For the past 8ish rounds, ive come to look at Asc as an alliance which punishes those alliances who play shit..
do you really see Asc as the moral guardians of PA
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Unread 3 Dec 2010, 00:32   #57
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
but isnt that what the community usually argues against? That people dont want the PA Team to set limits and stop people doing things out-of-the-box.
I never said they should impose more limits.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
If we take the tag limit as an example which is often complained against by Asc (I dont like it either), when we look at the reality of the situation.. can we really trust the community not to all flock to 1 alliance if we got rid of the tag limit? or 2 big alliances who nap, then theres not enough people left to block against them.
The problem with this is not really tag limit, alliances, or whatever else. The problem here is that no one really CARES about winning anymore. I made a post about this a while ago, but most people ignored it. But this is really one of the biggest issues that is pretty easy to fix. With the small community, most people have been through winning (I think most of asc is even BORED of it), and the people who haven't, most likely just don't have the will/time to do it. What does winning give you? A sense of accomplishment? Respect from this small community? Hardly. 5 credits for an alliance of 60-100 people? Honestly, it's just not worth the time for the reward you get anymore.

Also, have a look at how no one cares about planet/galaxy wins anymore. Alliance wins are moving in the same direction.

Obviously, a lot of people are just getting burnt out by the game too. It's the exact same game it was 3-5 or whatever years ago. There's just not a lot of things to get excited about anymore.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
We've usually got all these limits on gameplay and design flaws, as the community does something crap and the PA Team tries to artifically correct the problem, which results in a worse game overall as it gets rid of diverse strategys and pigeonholes everyone.
You have hard limits, and you have soft limits. Tag limits are a hard limit. Defending OOT without the eta bonus was somewhat of a soft limit. PATeam didn't say you COULDN'T def OOT(like now), but you would do so at a severe disadvantage. Unfortunately some game design decisions (stats/eta for example) counteracted this a bit. The point is giving people INCENTIVE to play the game the way you want them to is a lot better than FORCING people to play the way you want them to.

What it comes down to is that hard limits limits people choices. Which makes things very stale/boring in the long run. While soft limits gives people the possibility, but the majority of people won't use it. And the people that use it will most likely only do it for a limited amount, which means it's effect on the actual game is minimized.

Also, there's the psychological aspect of it. When someone tells you "You're not ALLOWED to do this" how do you react, versus someone who says "Go ahead and do whatever you want, but I THINK it's a bad idea".

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I know most people have been crap this round, except for Apprime as you cant really blame them for saying 'yes' to a easy win.

but everyone else being crap, is not an excuse or a reason for Asc to be crap. Im just disappointed that when Imp decided to be crap, Asc didnt bother trying but instead quit with there remaining players hitting a training alliance. For the past 8ish rounds, ive come to look at Asc as an alliance which punishes those alliances who play shit.. So Its just a shock to see how much Asc has fallen in terms of skill, strategy, and politics.
Unfortunately, not being crap for 5 years or whatever it's been now takes it's toll on people. Most people in asc are tired of this game and now mainly focuses on having their own fun. And winning isn't fun anymore (see above), so we do other things.

In fairness though, we did try to fight App alone (while CT/ND and Imp were tied up in their own war), and we lost. Pretty bad. So when Imp napped App we tried to attack Imp to show them it was a shit thing to do. Then we sort of lost again. So there wasn't much more to do.

Really though, considering most of the 'fun' (XPing, disting, support planets to fight overwhelming numbers, huge dominance, etc etc) things we did while winning got shat all over on by the admins, it's not surprising people get tired.

Also, take a look at how pretty much every alliance have adopted the asc way (merlin/munin, giving members more power, HCs somewhat phased out, etc) to run things to a certain degree, I'd say we've had a pretty big impact on the game.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I heard that Asc had been FC'd horde before the RR incident (dont know if thats true or not), thats why i ignore that 'fact'.
Yeah, we FC'd someone. To get ships, it had nothing to do with what alliance it was or anything. Unfortunately it was a girl, so all the losers had to put on their white armor. She's not even pretty, and she barely speaks english, so I doubt she'd put out. So they retal'd and we retal'd and a 'war' broke out. It was funny, so we had fun with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
It does annoy me sometimes, that so called 'training' alliances have big planets (which should of been instructed to join another alliance now they know how to play)
Yeah, and those were pretty much the only planets we attacked. I'm pretty sure they were fatter than just about everyone except RR and had more value than a lot of us.




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Originally Posted by paldir View Post
Yesterdayevening I lost the last little bit of respect I had for ascendancy. All night fleets were flying from asc to horde and from horde to asc. At some point asc decided to concentrate their massive Co fleets at one of our players in a CT galaxy.
I think you mean "All evening everyone was PLing their fleets to the other alliance". But alright.

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Originally Posted by paldir View Post
Since in our alliance everyone is free to choose what race and what fleet they play, we dont have so many overpowered Co fleets as asc have and those waves need our complete alliance to cover them.
In asc everyone gets to choose what they want to do too. But we're smart enough to agree on something, because you know, it's SMART. But it doesn't mean people like alki don't go Terran in a round where everyone is going Xan fi.

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Originally Posted by paldir View Post
After some big calculations and seeing what the targets galaxy could help, we decided at a pure DE defense from the galaxy and so Horde had all their Fi/Co fleets free for more retals or simple roiding, while the asc Co fleets would be flying all night for nothing. Perfect situation for us where we covered all asc incoming and even had the ability to roid ourselves.

But then this happened. Asc ordered the galaxy mates from the target to recall their destroyers since they were napped to Ascendancy. As far as I know NAP means "non attack pact" and not "non defend your galmates pact". If you really want to honor your nap so much then you shouldnt attack planets in CT galaxy's.

Seriously napping half the universe and then not allowing your nap's to def their galaxy mates?!? I hope you are happy with your 15% roidcap.

When I read at IRC that our beautifull defense plan we had puzzled a pretty long time on had fallen apart, all I could thinks was: Asc'holes
Yeah, this is pretty normal, and the people in the galaxy with incomings should know which alliances they cannot defend against beforehand.

Also, I think it means "Non-Agression Pact". Atleast it does sometimes. But I'm sure you could ask them to include an NDYGP option ingame. Either way, the terms are usually different. Sometimes they're complete avoidance of galaxies (not really), sometimes they're avoiding fortress or core galaxies. Sometimes it's no def, sometimes you can still def. And so on. It also goes both way, so it's not like we told them "You can't defend against us, but we can defend against you" and think to ourselves that our masterplan was coming to life.

I did enjoy the roid cap though, and asc'holes was a very clever wordplay I had never heard before, so kudos on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
do you really see Asc as the moral guardians of PA
I presume the single-moms out there would be very happy.
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Last edited by Linkie; 3 Dec 2010 at 00:46.
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Unread 4 Dec 2010, 17:10   #58
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
You have hard limits, and you have soft limits. Tag limits are a hard limit. Defending OOT without the eta bonus was somewhat of a soft limit. PATeam didn't say you COULDN'T def OOT(like now), but you would do so at a severe disadvantage. Unfortunately some game design decisions (stats/eta for example) counteracted this a bit. The point is giving people INCENTIVE to play the game the way you want them to is a lot better than FORCING people to play the way you want them to.
The hard coding of disallowing OOGOOT defense has rendered "support planets" (you know the ones that generally have 1 ship type and have no problems going on a 1 way trip defending to donate salvage) useless.
Arguably enriching the game for some other players (you know the ones that dont depend apon "support planets")

I personally have been very happy with this being implimented.
I know that when I have defense against my attack I know the players who have sent this defence are genuine players which made my r38 very enjoyable.

This round with the universe mainly going fi/co would not have had the same impact as last round due to larger ships % and etas game mechanics. But would rule out for example the Horde/asc receiving OOGOOT defense distorting the results of their war. (Since Asc went mainly Fi/co there wouldn't be the same incentive for the Horde to use support planets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
What it comes down to is that hard limits limits people choices. Which makes things very stale/boring in the long run. While soft limits gives people the possibility, but the majority of people won't use it. And the people that use it will most likely only do it for a limited amount, which means it's effect on the actual game is minimized.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...6&postcount=54

whilst ive nothing personal against Newt I frankly don't miss these types of planets taking part ingame.

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
Also, there's the psychological aspect of it. When someone tells you "You're not ALLOWED to do this" how do you react, versus someone who says "Go ahead and do whatever you want, but I THINK it's a bad idea".
Take recent examples of the NFI vacation mode in the last week and the korsan and friends gal ripping the pish out gal fund from previous few rounds...

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198743 gal fund
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198893 vac mode
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198914 vac mode cont

Frankly there are some who will take any advantage going regardless it is a bug or a "loophole"

morale of story if it is possible to ingame some folk see it as fair game regardless if it means the game gets closed down for a day or put legit folk in vacation mode at risk.

Until this is frowned apon and the PA players in question Mature to the point to realise that this practice ruins the game for the majority of folks.
(yes that may mean taking a roiding .... shock horror)
Them players have left the PA team with little alternatives.
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Unread 4 Dec 2010, 20:03   #59
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I know that when I have defense against my attack I know the players who have sent this defence are genuine players which made my r38 very enjoyable.
And you told me you didn't like R38!


Quote:
Take recent examples of the NFI vacation mode in the last week and the korsan and friends gal ripping the pish out gal fund from previous few rounds...
Vacmode was never about gaining an advantage, beyond the 'free time to do other things' it would have created. A couple of rounds now everyone will be able to look back on that and laugh, I'm predicting.
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Unread 4 Dec 2010, 22:53   #60
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
And you told me you didn't like R38!
Just your actions as NFI HC, planet wise I had good fun.

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Vacmode was never about gaining an advantage, beyond the 'free time to do other things' it would have created.
Some of your alliance members prolonged keeping their roids.
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Unread 4 Dec 2010, 23:51   #61
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
The hard coding of disallowing OOGOOT defense has rendered "support planets" (you know the ones that generally have 1 ship type and have no problems going on a 1 way trip defending to donate salvage) useless.
Arguably enriching the game for some other players (you know the ones that dont depend apon "support planets")

I personally have been very happy with this being implimented.
I know that when I have defense against my attack I know the players who have sent this defence are genuine players which made my r38 very enjoyable.

This round with the universe mainly going fi/co would not have had the same impact as last round due to larger ships % and etas game mechanics. But would rule out for example the Horde/asc receiving OOGOOT defense distorting the results of their war. (Since Asc went mainly Fi/co there wouldn't be the same incentive for the Horde to use support planets)

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...6&postcount=54

whilst ive nothing personal against Newt I frankly don't miss these types of planets taking part ingame.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. That hard limits are good? That cheating is bad?

Yeah, cheating is bad. I agree. Bot/multi planets are bad. Purposely crashing (salvage donations) are bad. But I think a person should be allowed to sign up a planet with no other intention than to defend his alliance/friends if he wants to. This comes down to some flaws in planetarion's core gameplay. But I think social interaction is the biggest part of the game, and I also think it's why many people keep playing. But I can definately see why some people are pro the support planet rule and tag limits though.

I personally just think it's a cheap way out because no one wants to spend the time coming up with/implementing a proper solution though. This is where soft vs. hard limits come in.

And OOG/OOT pl def has lead to politcs being a lot more interesting some rounds. There just has to be a limit to it. The stats could reflect this, pretty easily, by making a ship that is not useful for much else, thereby meaning building this ship is wasted if you fight someone organised enough to not give you the possibility to use it, or if you're own alliance/group is too bad. And that's just something I came up with in 5 seconds, I'm sure there's other ways to implement this.

Again, tag limits and support planet rule is just a rushed quick fix that gets implemented as a permanent solution. Which unfortunately leads to extremely stagnant gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Take recent examples of the NFI vacation mode in the last week and the korsan and friends gal ripping the pish out gal fund from previous few rounds...

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198743 gal fund
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198893 vac mode
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198914 vac mode cont

Frankly there are some who will take any advantage going regardless it is a bug or a "loophole"

morale of story if it is possible to ingame some folk see it as fair game regardless if it means the game gets closed down for a day or put legit folk in vacation mode at risk.

Until this is frowned apon and the PA players in question Mature to the point to realise that this practice ruins the game for the majority of folks.
(yes that may mean taking a roiding .... shock horror)
Them players have left the PA team with little alternatives.
Do you think I said bug abuse is alright? I honestly have no idea how you got that from my previous post.

The fact that avoiding incs is more profitable than mining roids is bad game design. The fact that nothing has been done in the last 10 rounds while it's been obvious that fencing/NAPPING/avoiding incs/whatever has become more and more important to win, is bad game design. The point of my original post was that making attacking more profitable is the way to go, instead of saying something like, "2/3 of your launches has to be at planets atleast 100% your value", which is more akin to the support planet rule/tag limit. And almost as dumb and arbitrary.
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Unread 6 Dec 2010, 11:29   #62
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. That hard limits are good? That cheating is bad?

Yeah, cheating is bad. I agree. Bot/multi planets are bad. Purposely crashing (salvage donations) are bad. But I think a person should be allowed to sign up a planet with no other intention than to defend his alliance/friends if he wants to. This comes down to some flaws in planetarion's core gameplay. But I think social interaction is the biggest part of the game, and I also think it's why many people keep playing. But I can definately see why some people are pro the support planet rule and tag limits though.
That hardcoding ootoog defense out was a better option than to have players have support planets that were at best unscrupulous. For example Pommeh in r34 (who also made an appearence at the EoRC) as you said....

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
I personally just think it's a cheap way out because no one wants to spend the time coming up with/implementing a proper solution though.
totally agree with this. Which is a better option than the status quo.
The question is how to proceed?

I personally would like to see the beta server in use trying out new ideas (A PA R&D team so to speak)
rather than beta server being used just to test stats for each new round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
Do you think I said bug abuse is alright? I honestly have no idea how you got that from my previous post.
Not at all, Im not having a go at you personally. Apologies if you thought this was the case.
More annoyed at some others in the PA community.

What I am saying that there are some in the PA community like kenny (but not soley) for example who thinks it was acceptable to do the vac mode thing. If it is available to do to gain an advantage regardless of consequence. I.E genuine folk who were on vac mode as it was a summer round.

However If that is some folks ideas of playing the game the way they want ... Then I see hard coding limits in as nessesary.
One of the reasons why most folk wont use support planets, bug abuse or salvage donate is because it ruins the game as a whole / for the majority.

Then I see the likes of Mz trying to justify support planets by going as far as saying elviz isn't a cheat and didn't mind the use of VNC ingame. Thankfully had the reason to see the errors of his ways.

One down many to go.

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
The fact that avoiding incs is more profitable than mining roids is bad game design. The fact that nothing has been done in the last 10 rounds while it's been obvious that fencing/NAPPING/avoiding incs/whatever has become more and more important to win, is bad game design. The point of my original post was that making attacking more profitable is the way to go, instead of saying something like, "2/3 of your launches has to be at planets atleast 100% your value", which is more akin to the support planet rule/tag limit. And almost as dumb and arbitrary.
I do agree with this point.
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Unread 6 Dec 2010, 12:32   #63
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Re: Why have the extra week?

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Then I see the likes of Mz trying to justify support planets by going as far as saying elviz isn't a cheat and didn't mind the use of VNC ingame. Thankfully had the reason to see the errors of his ways.
Apparently you never really understood my point of view. Rules are rules. Everyone is required to adhere to them and failure to do so is rightly punished. I challenge you to quote me saying otherwise.

My objection to many of the rules now enforced by the multihunters is that I don't believe they're improving the game, quite the opposite.
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Unread 6 Dec 2010, 17:43   #64
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Why have the extra week?

Ok, so while doing an unrelated search query, I came across this little gem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I can't say I care about this in the least. The more people that break the support planet rule, the happier I'll be.
Whoops. Needless to say, I am currently in the process of eating my words. With ketchup.
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Unread 6 Dec 2010, 19:27   #65
JonnyBGood
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Re: Why have the extra week?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
That hardcoding ootoog defense out was a better option than to have players have support planets that were at best unscrupulous. For example Pommeh in r34 (who also made an appearence at the EoRC) as you said....
Do we really think this is actually prevalent enough that it's worth legislating against? I mean, I understand you do, but I've seriously yet to meet anyone who thinks actual cheating is as widespread as you claim it is, particularly in terms of support planets. I mean I fought a fair few pretty active wars at the top level of this game over an extended number of rounds and I never saw a significant number of support planets, nor a significant impact from the couple I did see on the round.

Quote:
What I am saying that there are some in the PA community like kenny (but not soley) for example who thinks it was acceptable to do the vac mode thing. If it is available to do to gain an advantage regardless of consequence. I.E genuine folk who were on vac mode as it was a summer round.
As far as I'm aware kenny and whoever else went into vac mode did it to avoid playing the last few days of the round. To me this is what vac mode is about. My problem is with vac mode itself. It's ****ing stupid. We have run and hide now, why do we need vac mode? If I'm going away on holidays that's my choice, the universe shouldn't accomodate me.

The problem with so, so many of these flaws and bug exploits that crop up is that they're only possible due to shitty game design.
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