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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 12:57   #1
Nodrog
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Words and pictures

I assume that the majority of people "think in words" - that is to say their (observable) thinking consists in some kind of internal monologue, kind of like having a conversation with yourself. There are times when other modes of thought take place (for instance thinking by means of pictures), but I imagine that most people most of the time use 'words' in some way.

Now consider someone who was born deaf and dumb, but has learned a sign language. Would anything language-related internally accompany their thinking and speaking? They obviously wont be able to pronounce words to themselves, and it seems absurd to suggest they mentally picture 2 hands which 'sign out' their thoughts in their head in the way that words 'sound out' ours. Would they instead think entirely in symbols/pictures of some kind, or would their thoughts be 'unaccompanied' by anything explicit? They are able to use language in the same way we do, and to express the same ideas that we do in spoken English, so it is tempting to think that something similar takes place in their heads as in ours. But this is probably not the case.

As a similar example, take a deaf/dumb person who has learned English, but only in written form (I suppose they would learn it in a similar way to how we learn spoken English, but rather than having cats pointed out and being told 'this is a cat', they would have cats pointed out and the word 'cat' shown to them on a piece of paper). Would/could they imagine pictures of words arranging themselves in their minds as they thought, instead of internally 'hearing the sounds'?

Does anyone know of any actual research that has been done on this (competent interviews with deaf/dumb people for instance)? I'm quite curious.

Last edited by Nodrog; 1 Apr 2005 at 13:13.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 13:20   #2
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Re: Words and pictures

The best i can offer is that I've heard it mentioned before so you can probably find papers on it somewhere.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 13:22   #3
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Re: Words and pictures

I don't know what you want to know, but I bet there are tonnes of researches out there about what "thoughts" are, and my guess you could find quite some looking for artificial intelligence.
I had thoughts too as to what "thoughts" are, and I don't think it's simply either words, or images. When I read this forum the words I "hear" are English, not Dutch, but the thoughts and ideas conveyed come across anyway. When I have an idea for software, an implementation, that can not be expressed in words of any language, or an image... but the idea is still there.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 13:25   #4
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Re: Words and pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I don't know what you want to know,
I want to know what, if anything, people think mentally accompanies the thoughts of those who only know non-verbal languages.

Quote:
but I bet there are tonnes of researches out there about what "thoughts" are, and my guess you could find quite some looking for artificial intelligence.
God no.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 13:28   #5
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Re: Words and pictures

im not sure i do think in words most of the time actually. Just when i actually want to put something IN words. If i don't, im quite happy with filling my heads with nebulous concepts and "feelings", seems much more efficient to me.

that would explain why when writing an essay and i get to a tricky bit, i think of the idea, then spend probably as long again actually putting it into the english language. I assumed everyone was like that.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 13:38   #6
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Re: Words and pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Paging Stephen Pinker to a thread on mentalese.
I'd prefer to read actual interviews with the people in question discussing what actually goes on in their head, rather than some pack of rationalists spouting pseudo-behaviorist claptrap about what 'must' be happening.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 13:44   #7
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Re: Words and pictures

On a semi-related note, I read an interview a few weeks ago featuring someone with savant powers talking about his abilities (incredible feats of calculations, being able to recite pi to over 20000 (twenty thousand) decimal places, etc etc).

He was describing what occurred while doing mental arithmetic involving large numbers (such as multiplying 8 digit numbers in his head) - he said that rather than consciously following some algorithm in the way we would, he instead pictured the numbers as colours and shapes, then watched as they 'mixed' into each other and produced the answer. He also spoke about how he assigned (small) numbers to individual colours in the same way some musicians do with musical notes, and how he felt something like 'affinity' and friendship towards numbers. It sounded pretty .


edit: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...409903,00.html
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 14:01   #8
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Re: Words and pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I want to know what, if anything, people think mentally accompanies the thoughts of those who only know non-verbal languages.
I see, "accompanies" is the key word there. You should mention these things in your original post.

Quote:
God no.
AI research WOULD be a valid field to look into if you want to know what thoughts are, because in order to shape a "brain" or "conciousness" or something "thinking", in a computer you first need to define what a thought is.
But OK...
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 14:28   #9
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Re: Words and pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I want to know what, if anything, people think mentally accompanies the thoughts of those who only know non-verbal languages.

Oh, then you are quite in the wrong place. We really canīt help you with the important questions like if the goat actually liked it and if it wants to see you again.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 15:08   #10
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Re: Words and pictures

i sometimes think without words, just in scheme's and pictures
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 15:09   #11
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Re: Words and pictures

When I think it's a whole load of things happening in my head like pictures and sounds and rather more infrequently other sensory experiences. It's like fireworks going off :)))
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 15:36   #12
Nodrog
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Re: Words and pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I see, "accompanies" is the key word there. You should mention these things in your original post.
I did, several times.

Quote:
AI research WOULD be a valid field to look into if you want to know what thoughts are, because in order to shape a "brain" or "conciousness" or something "thinking", in a computer you first need to define what a thought is.
But OK...
The AI field is largely populated with functionalists, and modelling a brain is held to be a primarilly behavioral matter. I doubt you'll find many articles related to AI which discuss what a thought is from the 'inside'.
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Unread 1 Apr 2005, 15:50   #13
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Re: Words and pictures

If you're interested on how the brain's different abilities affects people's thoughts and speach patterns you could look into dyslexia.

For example dyslexics are often see as creative, more so than non-dyslexics, due to the fact the 'pictorial' side of their brain was developed in enfancy, instead of thier 'normal academic' side, thus thier difficulties in school.

As for your example, I'd say the deaf person actually thinks in pictures. As the fact you think in sounds is only the result of the fat this is the main thinking-process you have; if it wasn't their you'd just replace it with another process, and this would affect how you'd think. As methodologies affect results.
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