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Unread 6 Jul 2006, 23:37   #1
s|k
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'Bunks for Drunks'

Finally a place where JBG can live in peace.


Quote:
Rodney Littlebear was a homeless drunk who for 15 years ran up the public tab with trips to jail, homeless shelters and emergency rooms.

He now has a brand-new, government-financed apartment where he can drink as much as he wants.
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Unread 6 Jul 2006, 23:40   #2
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

your dad was a drunk.
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Unread 6 Jul 2006, 23:41   #3
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
your dad was a drunk.
And your dad doesn't like homosexuals.
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Unread 6 Jul 2006, 23:49   #4
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

There may be a reason that they are the "unsympathetic homeless."
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 00:08   #5
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

"Bunks for Drunks" who the f**k makes up these nauseating rhymes? whats wrong with "stink of piss dirty twats get free shit for being off their faces and not giving a sh*t?"
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 00:49   #6
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

what I don't understand is why people like this are rewarded, what kind of an incentive is it to live an upstanding life when these people can live better than some off the state by being costly to society?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 01:07   #7
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
what I don't understand is why people like this are rewarded, what kind of an incentive is it to live an upstanding life when these people can live better than some off the state by being costly to society?
Well if you read it, it says that it's not for them, it's to save costs. It's cheaper to put these people in this house than to throw them in jail or clean up after them on the streets.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 01:38   #8
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
Ms. King said the alcohol intake of the residents was shockingly high at first, but many residents say they now drink less, at least by their standards.

"I cut down," Mr. Littlebear said. "I've got to save my liver."
These bums are now drinking less to extend their lives. This needs to be factored into the cost analysis, it might be more costy to house them if they are going to live a lot longer. Especially when you factor in the additional healthcare costs mentioned earlier in the article.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 02:05   #9
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

the ability of people given plenty to hate with such fervour those given less is a genuinely amazing feature of Western civilisation. Congratulations guys!
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 02:13   #10
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

I don't see why you have to get all emotional on us phang. It's purely an ecomonic decision; How best to deal with the casualties of our civilisation in a cost-effective manner.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 05:29   #11
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
These bums are now drinking less to extend their lives. This needs to be factored into the cost analysis, it might be more costy to house them if they are going to live a lot longer.
It really depends on what you're comparing to what for any economic analysis to make sense. I mean if we're saying that we can either let them sit on the welfare benefits system versus sending them to prison then the former is dramatically less expensive (in the UK at least, I doubt it's too different elsewhere). If the third option is to abandon these people entirely then that tends to push up crime levels (which other studies have shown far more expensive than even prison). So what exactly is being weighed up?
Quote:
I don't see why you have to get all emotional on us phang. It's purely an ecomonic decision; How best to deal with the casualties of our civilisation in a cost-effective manner.
Well, if we're ignoring morality entirely then I suspect mass execution will always tend to work out cheaper on a per capita basis.

It costs £35k per year for an adult UK prison sentence, I suspect once you got into the swing of things you could probably get executions down to a few hundred pounds per victim. We might be able to lower costs further by mass burials or the use of gas. In the longer term mass sterilisation of those at risk groups (e.g. poor people, certain ethnic groups) as a preventative measure might be cheaper still.

The point is if we're just looking at this in terms of economic costs, how far do we wish to take this?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 05:42   #12
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

dante, you must admit it doesn't seem "fair" that these people are felons, but they get treated better than some upstanding, and taxpaying, members of western culture. Why work, when the government will give you a house if you're a lazy bum, who does nothing but drink all day. I know the motivation is to save money, but it still pisses me off, money shouldn't be the motivation in all things, did anyone stop and think that this may not be the best way to treat these people?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 05:59   #13
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
dante, you must admit it doesn't seem "fair" that these people are felons, but they get treated better than some upstanding, and taxpaying, members of western culture. Why work, when the government will give you a house if you're a lazy bum, who does nothing but drink all day. I know the motivation is to save money, but it still pisses me off, money shouldn't be the motivation in all things, did anyone stop and think that this may not be the best way to treat these people?
Alcoholism is a disease that nobody wants. It ruins your life, it's a shitty life. These people are sick. They have an illness, they're not just letting anyone into these homes, just the very sick.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 06:01   #14
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
dante, you must admit it doesn't seem "fair"
Well, the above post of mine was simply meant to play out the logic of what was being suggested. I am not saying we can ignore the morality of the situation, but others are, and I am saying if we follow that idea through we reach some interesting conclusions.
Quote:
these people are felons
Are they? I don't really understand the division, but doesn't felony refer to only certain types of crimes? But that's not really important, they've almost certainly comitted crimes of one sort or another.
Quote:
but they get treated better than some upstanding, and taxpaying, members of western culture. Why work, when the government will give you a house if you're a lazy bum, who does nothing but drink all day.
Well, I don't know enough about this specific example, but generally speaking in the UK you won't get given a house if you've got substance abuse problems (or even a history of one) - you'll end up getting what is normally a "hard to let" property. In the housing association I work for this translates into a bedsit on one of our worst estates. There are obviously exceptions, but 60% of our bedsits and one bedroom properties are let to people with these sorts of problems (and mental health issues) and they tend to lean toward the worst our stock. So I'm not sure they're being treated better than most taxpaying citizens - while I certainly wouldn't object to a rent free accomodation, I wouldn't swap homes with most people in that situation.

But I know what you mean. It can seem wrong that people are getting free stuff simply because they've perhaps made some unwise choices (this is hardly the full story of course). But what do you suggest? I think we will always have people who will fall down into these sorts of personal problems for one reason or another. As a society we can ignore them, or punish them or we can offer a hand. The problem is that the first two tend to be expensive, in the long run. Of course, you can make the argument that this is a bad example, that people will be encouraged towards sloth and drunkeness by this generous support. And that could be true, but if we look at societies where there is much less of a safety net we see no absence of social problems of this sort.

More generally, the levels of support given out in most countries (even where there is a welfare benefits system) is not high enough to make work seem unattractive for most. There are of course marginal cases (e.g. single mothers can sometimes face a net income loss if they commence work) but that's usually due to perversity in the benefits system and chronically low wages.
Quote:
I know the motivation is to save money, but it still pisses me off, money shouldn't be the motivation in all things, did anyone stop and think that this may not be the best way to treat these people?
I agree money shouldn't be the (sole) motivator here, but what do you suggest we do? I think we should always try to help people, and I am of course willing to bear the cost. The actual tactics we use is going to vary, and this is why we have experts in rehabilitation, support workers, etc. But I certainly won't begrudge people getting stuff for "free" in this context, and I doubt getting angry at people facing these issues is unlikely to help. These people are among the most wretched and deserve our sympathy and assistance, not our rage.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 07:15   #15
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Exclamation Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Alcoholism is a disease that nobody wants. It ruins your life, it's a shitty life. These people are sick. They have an illness, they're not just letting anyone into these homes, just the very sick.
Their illness is not being treated though.

I guess what bothers me about this particular program is that there's no requirement to undergo any sort of treatment. Usually shelter is offered as a carrot to entice homeless alcoholics to enter rehab but this program is aimed at those who apparently refuse to enter treatment. It might be cheaper for the state to warehouse these people but it doesn't strike me as being particularly humane. Instead of drinking their lives away out on the streets we give them a place to drink that costs us less money overall and takes them off the streets and out of public view. Is this for their benefit or ours?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 07:33   #16
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
but doesn't felony refer to only certain types of crimes?
not in England. We have no distinction between crimes in the way that America does.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 09:10   #17
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjn
"Bunks for Drunks" who the f**k makes up these nauseating rhymes? whats wrong with "stink of piss dirty twats get free shit for being off their faces and not giving a sh*t?"
If I had done this thread I would have had many an opposition.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 09:28   #18
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
not in England. We have no distinction between crimes in the way that America does.
In America, once having comitted a felony, you are a felon for the rest of your life. I don't know the specifics, but basically you can no longer leave the country, own a gun, and vote. You become a second class citizen, even though you've paid your debt to society. In some states, if you have comitted three felonies, you go to jail for the rest of your life. It's called the 'three strikes law.'

The joke of the matter is that it's so incredibly arbitrary. Some guy steals a bike, and because it was from walmart and cost $50 it's a misdameanor (not a felony), another person steals a bike that looks almost exactly the the same, but instead it's a K2 with Shimano parts and cost well over $4,000. One person spends 30 days in jail, the other person has to live as a second class citizen the rest of their lifes. Go go US legal system! It's doing such a great job for humanity. Thanks! I feel safe and protected knowing I exist in such a ****ed up bullshit kangaroo legal system where I feel that if I look at a cop wrong I may end up with a destroyed life.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 10:00   #19
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

The thing I don´t understand about US law is that they look only at the crime itself, not by who or why it was committed.
The best example I saw was a guy doing life in Ohio, because he first stole a slice of pizza, then after a while a bottle of milk, and the thing he got life for was stealing a Mars bar. All crimes comitted, because the poor black mofo was HUNGRY for God´s sake. The governor´s commentary: ¨That´s how Ohio works, it´s like baseball. Three strikes and you´re out.´

I prefer Germany where they still have the ´MundRaub´ principle baked into their law system. It allows you to steal food if you are hungry, but no more than what you can put in your mouth... It goes all the way back to medieval law. Nice isn´t it.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 10:55   #20
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quick question: when did alcoholism become a desease and not just people who don't have the willpower to stop putting what is effectively a poison into their bodies.
As far as I know alcohol isn't actually physically addictive (like heroin?) or chemically addictive (like tobacco), so surely there's no excuse for addiction to it beyond your own shitness?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 11:58   #21
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Because alcoholism 9 of 10 times is a SYMPTOM of bigger problems. And willpower is a laugh. I could not open a pack of crisps on willpower alone. That word is used in vain by a lot of people.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:06   #22
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
As far as I know alcohol isn't actually physically addictive (like heroin?) or chemically addictive (like tobacco), so surely there's no excuse for addiction to it beyond your own shitness?
All addictions are on some level psychological, so I'm not sure there's any real division here. Sure, if you've got a substance to take for your body to not collapse then OK, but psychological addictions seem to be just as powerful as the physical pain you might face with other addictions.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:10   #23
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Originally Posted by xtrasyn
Because alcoholism 9 of 10 times is a SYMPTOM of bigger problems. And willpower is a laugh. I could not open a pack of crisps on willpower alone. That word is used in vain by a lot of people.
In a fashion, though, alcoholism is a self-inflicted disease. The fact that today's society always bases everything on "the guy is alcoholic because he had a bad youth" or "he does heroine because he's depressed" has lead to "it's okay he murdered her, because he was depressed and had every right to be after her ditching him" -attitude, has lead to a discussion which here is refered to as the "professional understanders".

"Experts" of ackward calibre that work their way around to understanding just about everything. If we deduct it to a ridiculous extent, any issue one might have (killing his sister, eating his neighbour's dog, alcoholism) is just a symptom of bigger/other problems not caused by the person himself, so he's not really responsible for it, right?

Yeah, they are "sick", but it's by far self-inflicted. Excess quantities of alcohol is a choice inevitably; you can either try to deal with your problems in different ways, or take the bottle. I intimately know a person that has had some problems in his life that you'd say, should he be alcoholic, his alcoholism would be a symptom of these bigger problems. Probably had he killed someone it would just have been a symptom too, not a choice.

So it's funny games thinking about *why* some people with similar problems don't come up with a symptom like alcoholism, and some do. A matter of personal preferences (oh yeah, which are greatly designed by enviroment too, so we're kinda prisoners of our past if we go the skeptic disgustingly pedant psychological route).
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:18   #24
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Well, being raised by an alcoholic and seeing from closeby the effect and path of alcoholism, an experience I sincerely hope you lack, I have to say you are wrong.

People don´t wake up and think ´Let´s start drinking today´. Ofcourse there are some people that slide into drinking because they simply have nothing better to do, but most of em just can´t hack life, and take to the bottle because it numbs them or gives them that little bit of relaxation that will get them to the next day.

If you cannot see that in those cases it is the symptom of a greater problem I do not know how to explain it to you.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:19   #25
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

people who have never suffered any kind of dependency or mental illness always seem to assume that because some people can kick themselves out of it, everyone can. This is not the case. A few years ago, I had that lovely old suicidal depression thing going on (which I know I've mentioned to a few people on here); I mostly worked myself out of it because I was a little too self-aware to think that the cycle of theft, truancy and self-harm I'd let myself fall into was a good thing. It took about nine months, maybe a year, between my realising that it had to stop and that actually happening - not because of my own 'shitness', but because I was in such a bad way that I kept slipping into old patterns. Actually, this forum was a major help in that because even though my posting was pretty much of the standard you'd expect from a mentally ill 15-year-old, it gave me something constructive and safe to do.

One of my good friends told me a few months ago, while very emotional, loose-tongued and drunk, that on the back of particularly unpleasant relationship issues they'd attempted suicide about a year before. They've been on heavy anti-depressants since then and have had monthly therapy sessions for the last few months. It's helping, but it's unlikely it would have started had their parents not found them unconscious on the floor of the bathroom.

I know a girl who has been perpetually ****ed on booze and weed since the age of 15. After being top of her class - on course for 12 A*s at GCSE and quite possibly an Oxbridge education - up to this point, she dropped out at 16 with 6 GCSEs. Her parents are rich and disinterested, so they haven't intervened and she hasn't needed to get a job. When her friends have tried to intervene, it's been to no success. She doesn't listen, and she gets angry at the suggestion that she has any kind of problem at all. She doesn't get invited to that many parties, just because people don't want to make it too easy for her to get at booze. When she does go to those parties, she's not a happy drunk. She cries, she mourns her life, she falls asleep huddled in the corner of the room. The next day she wakes up, goes home, and starts drinking.

You don't need chemicals to **** yourself up almost irretrievably. For the drunks in the bunks, their lives are being made better. They have shelter, food, and something to do other than drink. They aren't being pressured to stop drinking, bcause if they were they'd just leave and go back on the streets, although help is made available for those who are able to take it. Don't you dare judge these people for the position they're in - if they've failed rehab six times, can we perhaps, just perhaps, assume that control is out of their hands?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:21   #26
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
"Experts" of ackward calibre that work their way around to understanding just about everything. If we deduct it to a ridiculous extent, any issue one might have (killing his sister, eating his neighbour's dog, alcoholism) is just a symptom of bigger/other problems not caused by the person himself, so he's not really responsible for it, right?
They are two separate issues I think. We need to understand why someone committed a crime so (if nothing else) we can try to avoid similar things happening again. That's not always easy but clearly certain developments will reduce crime in the long term.

However, all of this "understanding" issue is completely separate from the idea whether someone should be held responsible for their crimes. If someone kills ten people, and we find out they had some sort of mental defect which contributed to their behaviour, it's not like we would set the person free, would we? That line of reasoning would mean the only people who were put in prison would be people who committed crimes for no reason.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:27   #27
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That line of reasoning would mean the only people who were put in prison would be people who committed crimes for no reason.
That's a bit of a "no conventional reason" more than a "no reason". All things happen for a reason. Maybe you're just a raging sociopath.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:30   #28
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

If only for a statistical reason. There´s always a number of ´fails´, be it in production figures, human beings or internet availability.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:35   #29
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
people who have never suffered any kind of dependency or mental illness always seem to assume that because some people can kick themselves out of it, everyone can.
No, I don't assume people can kick it out of themselves. There *most of the time* is a choice of how to deal with it, though; alcohol and other intoxicants are a way of handling your problems, and in my experience it's a bit of a choice which involves personal preferences.


Quote:
Actually, this forum was a major help in that because even though my posting was pretty much of the standard you'd expect from a mentally ill 15-year-old, it gave me something constructive and safe to do.
(Generally, getting "on" to routines helps; striving to find a routine also points your preferences: some people prefer to try alcohol, party, and weed to improve their quality, others do sport, find a spiritual side, some might post on forums. (I find these forums often tad hostile to new people though, as a side remark).

Quote:
You don't need chemicals to **** yourself up almost irretrievably. For the drunks in the bunks, their lives are being made better. They have shelter, food, and something to do other than drink. They aren't being pressured to stop drinking, bcause if they were they'd just leave and go back on the streets, although help is made available for those who are able to take it. Don't you dare judge these people for the position they're in - if they've failed rehab six times, can we perhaps, just perhaps, assume that control is out of their hands?
Yes, the drunks in the bunks is a good solution, on economical and welfare aspect of it. Yet it doesn't change the fact that the people who become alcoholics contribute their fair shares to the illness, and rehab is another point where you just need to find the strength to work on yourself (there are people who succeed at rehab, and those who fail; I think it would help the girl you mentioned if she found herself something constructive to do; now I am sorry if I come up offensive using you as a sample, but you made it out of it, she didn't - it's often a lot up to yourself realizing your problems and working to get yourself out of them, or succumbing deeper into self-pity and so on).


And yes, I do have personal experience of "problems", not alcoholism, though, as I didn't pick alcohol as the solution for my problems (which would have made alcoholism a "symptom" probably).

edit - forgot this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteHicks
They are two separate issues I think. We need to understand why someone committed a crime so (if nothing else) we can try to avoid similar things happening again. That's not always easy but clearly certain developments will reduce crime in the long term.

However, all of this "understanding" issue is completely separate from the idea whether someone should be held responsible for their crimes. If someone kills ten people, and we find out they had some sort of mental defect which contributed to their behaviour, it's not like we would set the person free, would we? That line of reasoning would mean the only people who were put in prison would be people who committed crimes for no reason.
We need to carefully assess the nature of the mental defect. What I am trying to say, is, that the debate in my homeland has been going to a direction where, whatever anyone does, people appear who explain the deesd through "excuses" or "reasoning", depending how you take it. An alcoholic has contributed to his own alcoholism by consuming alcohol; everyone who gets depressed doesn't end up alcoholic or junkie, and in my opinion it's wrong to say it's not his fault he is an alcoholic, it's his harsh childhood.

Which brings me to a famous (or notorious) Finnish band of three brothers that were in the media labeled as the Eura (a town) Daltons due to their excessive criminal record and repeative crimes. Later on (if I remember correct, during their trials), a movie was made of the "Dalton brothers", after which a horde of "professional understanders" appeared to show their support to the poor kids who had obviously been wronged badly because they had ended up mugging people, attempting to rob banks, and trying to pull out gas station automats with a car. Yeah, it's not their fault they're criminals, the society made them! (the same applies to some cases of alcoholics and drunks here; it's not the poor guy's fault he's addicted to drugs or booze, the society caused him to feel bad).

There was this person, Sanna Sillanpää, who opened fire at fellow hobbyists in a firing range, wounding and killing people. She was found to have had a troubled childhood and these mental defections. She spent a few months in locked up therapy, and was then released to "normal" life with therapy.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:47   #30
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteHicks
It really depends on what you're comparing to what for any economic analysis to make sense.... So what exactly is being weighed up?
When dealing with people with such chronic personal problems who refuse any offers of treatment I believe it is the responsibility of the state to sensibly manage the financial burden so created. It must be remembered that, ultimately, these people have chosen this lifestyle and have slapped away the hand that tried to lift them back up. My point was that while I agree with the approach of allowing these people to drink themselves into oblivion in the privacy of a dedicated building (as opposed to on the streets) the monies set aside should not exceed the amount required to ignore the problem in the traditional way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
It might be cheaper for the state to warehouse these people but it doesn't strike me as being particularly humane. Instead of drinking their lives away out on the streets we give them a place to drink that costs us less money overall and takes them off the streets and out of public view. Is this for their benefit or ours?
Clearly it's for our benefit and I don't see why this should be a problem. These people have choices, they are not being railroaded or abused by the system in any way. They choose to drink the amount they do. In this case they have all chosen to refuse treatment on many occasions. I believe in their freedom of choice even while it kills them and I believe this option is preferable to an approach of criminalisation and expensive, pointless punishment.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:51   #31
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
WThey choose to drink the amount they do. In this case they have all chosen to refuse treatment on many occasions.
no.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:53   #32
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Indeed not. With Phang here.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:54   #33
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
no.
Unless they're being compelled to drink alcohol I entirely disagree. They may be drinking under false beliefs but alcoholics aren't mentally incompetent.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 12:58   #34
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

For me anyways it was mainly the ´In this case they have all chosen to refuse treatment on many occasions. ´ part I disagreed with.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 13:01   #35
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Each had been a street drunk for several years and had failed at least six efforts at sobriety.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 13:20   #36
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Unless they're being compelled to drink alcohol I entirely disagree. They may be drinking under false beliefs but alcoholics aren't mentally incompetent.
I'm not saying they're mentally incompetent, I'm saying they're mentally ill. They have an enormous psychological dependency which rehab schemes have plainly been unable to cure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiet
Yes, the drunks in the bunks is a good solution, on economical and welfare aspect of it. Yet it doesn't change the fact that the people who become alcoholics contribute their fair shares to the illness, and rehab is another point where you just need to find the strength to work on yourself (there are people who succeed at rehab, and those who fail; I think it would help the girl you mentioned if she found herself something constructive to do; now I am sorry if I come up offensive using you as a sample, but you made it out of it, she didn't - it's often a lot up to yourself realizing your problems and working to get yourself out of them, or succumbing deeper into self-pity and so on).
You don't understand. I didn't get over it because I realised my problems - most people do that. I got over it because when I realised my problems, and was struck with immense self-loathing for the pitiful piece of shit I was/saw myself as, I was able to persevere. I don't have an addictive personality, and I didn't have an addiction. The external factors that had ****ed me up so badly had mostly gone away, and out of some parts luck to some parts god-given willpower I was able to, with a large amount of time, battle through. Mostly.

Dependency is not something where person A's success reflects badly on person B's failure. Hell, it's not something where person B's failure reflects badly on person B's failure. Some people recover from cancer, some people don't - we don't castigate the latter group for not having a hardy enough immune system, or for not being god enough at chemotherapy or whatever the hell else.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 13:39   #37
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
I'm not saying they're mentally incompetent, I'm saying they're mentally ill. They have an enormous psychological dependency which rehab schemes have plainly been unable to cure.
Let's assume for just one second that your ridiculously sweeping statement about the mental health of people you've never even met is true. What do you suggest we should do a society? Kidnap these people from their cardboard boxes and force them into drink asylums where they'll leave cured or not at all? Since we're bagging their civil rights and ramming them up their collective asses we may aswell go the whole hog and use a bit of the old electro-shock or some other aversion therapy. We have the medical capability to make them retch at the slightest smell of alcohol, may aswell throw that in, right?

Or we could decide to accept that not everyone will 'make it' in society. Some will choose a different, more destructive path. If these people don't want certain types of help that is their right and their choice.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 14:02   #38
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

what the **** are you talking about


i've been advocating the "bunks for drunks" throughout the whole ****ing thread

it's been my entire point

because these people can't be helped through rehab, so we should at least give them food and shelter, like we give to all the other people shat on by society


are you some kind of idiot
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 14:04   #39
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Seeing as I drink enough to be considered an alcoholic and answer 27 out of 30 of those AA questions in the affirmative can I get a free apartment please?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 14:06   #40
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Can I move into your cardboard box then? I happen to be the other group of people shat on by society but I was evicted for budget reasons.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 14:07   #41
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

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Originally Posted by xtrasyn
Can I move into your cardboard box then? I happen to be the other group of people shat on by society but I was evicted for budget reasons.
You can't like "own" a cardboard box man.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 14:15   #42
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Oh well I´ll lease it with option to buy, or property turnover after 25 consecutive paid terms, then.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 14:52   #43
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
what the **** are you talking about

i've been advocating the "bunks for drunks" throughout the whole ****ing thread

it's been my entire point
No it has not and acting like an abusive, foul-mouthed child will not make it so. I'm aware that we agree on "bunks for drunks" being a positive thing.

However, my point was solely that your statement remarking on the mental health of these people was shit. Firstly, psychological dependance does not equate to mental illness. You seem to want to remove the factor of choice from their lives and with it any responsibility these people should shoulder for their choices so made.

Secondly, society owes these people NOTHING. The focus of societal policy should always be to care primarily for people interested in self help and self improvement. By saying that these people are incapable, as a result of mental illness, to make these decisions for themselves you are removing their right to live as they so choose. My point was that if you are going to do that why not just go the whole hog and forcibly cure them? It's equivalent to treatment other people suffering from mental illnesses receive after all.

In short your mealy-mouth, self involved diatribe about why we should be interfering in the choices of others is repulsive to me. As an example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
I know a girl who has been perpetually ****ed on booze and weed since the age of 15. After being top of her class - on course for 12 A*s at GCSE and quite possibly an Oxbridge education - up to this point, she dropped out at 16 with 6 GCSEs. Her parents are rich and disinterested, so they haven't intervened and she hasn't needed to get a job. When her friends have tried to intervene, it's been to no success. She doesn't listen, and she gets angry at the suggestion that she has any kind of problem at all. She doesn't get invited to that many parties, just because people don't want to make it too easy for her to get at booze. When she does go to those parties, she's not a happy drunk. She cries, she mourns her life, she falls asleep huddled in the corner of the room. The next day she wakes up, goes home, and starts drinking.
So what? It's her life. And who are you to comment on her family situation? What gives you the right to judge the validity of this girl's chosen lifestyle? In all seriousness, **** you and your prejudiced, self-important opinions on the choices of others.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:06   #44
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What gives you the right to judge the validity of this girl's chosen lifestyle? In all seriousness, **** you and your prejudiced, self-important opinions on the choices of others.
We all have the right to judge man, it's fairly self-evident in any vaguely free society. You may not appreciate the judgement but that's a different matter.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:15   #45
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
your prejudiced, self-important opinions on the choices of others.
prejudiced? yes, of course. I don't regard excellent academic attainment and a dazzling white-collar career is the ideal all should strive for, but I think perpetual apathy and misery is a pretty amazing definition of "how someone wants to live". i'm fairly sure it wouldn't be her "choice".

self-important? crawl the **** out of yourself.


Quote:
By saying that these people are incapable, as a result of mental illness, to make these decisions for themselves you are removing their right to live as they so choose.
No, I'm not. I'm saying "I don't think this is what they want, so we should offer them whatever help they're prepared to take" - food and shelter, for instance.
Quote:
My point was that if you are going to do that why not just go the whole hog and forcibly cure them? It's equivalent to treatment other people suffering from mental illnesses receive after all.

In short your mealy-mouth, self involved diatribe about why we should be interfering in the choices of others is repulsive to me.
you put words in my mouth - ones I vehemently disagree with - and then tear into me for expressing them? ****ing christ.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:22   #46
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

You called?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:23   #47
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
but I think perpetual apathy and misery is a pretty amazing definition of "how someone wants to live".
Who cares, it'll all end in tears anyways
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:35   #48
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
We all have the right to judge man, it's fairly self-evident in any vaguely free society. You may not appreciate the judgement but that's a different matter.
You are entirely correct, in my haste I overstated my argument. However I would consider it equivalent to judging someone because they are, for example, a crossdresser. Or because they choose a life of prostitution. It is the general culture of fearing or hating the different choices of others that I was objecting to. Essentially, this need for people to impose their own way of life on others because it is somehow more valid.
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:38   #49
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You are entirely correct, in my haste I overstated my argument. However I would consider it equivalent to judging someone because they are, for example, a crossdresser. Or because they choose a life of prostitution. It is the general culture of fearing or hating the different choices of others that I was objecting to. Essentially, this need for people to impose their own way of life on others because it is somehow more valid.
do you think people about to jump off a bridge should be talked out of it, or should we respect their choices?
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Unread 7 Jul 2006, 15:45   #50
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Re: 'Bunks for Drunks'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
i'm fairly sure it wouoldn't be her "choice".
Dude. It IS her choice. And just because it is probably the wrong choice does not mean you can take it away from her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
you put words in my mouth - ones I vehemently disagree with - and then tear into me for expressing them?
I wrote as I did to demonstrate the logical conclusion of your arguments. I disagree with your reasons for helping these specific people and I believe that if that thinking were to go unchallenged in society it would lead us more quickly down the road of nanny-statism upon which we have already embarked. Freedom of choice is being eliminated in the name of protecting us from ourselves and it is wrong, no matter how good the intentions.
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