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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:07   #1
eJohn
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When did we stop siding with the people?

The Ferocious Mr Fix-It

Entertaining? No doubt. I've enjoyed watching him kick some fanny.

But theres something deeper thats pissing me off a little. These people... what have they actually done wrong?

(The first episode features a hairdressers whose staff are a bit lazy)

They look at their mobile phones when their bored - they swear to each other (not in front of customers) about fussy and annoying customers - they make the odd comment about being paid poorly (in the staff room) or other salons looking better.

So the beeb and the owner (no, not the manager - the owner) sets up hidden cameras and they send this tough bastard in to ruin their shit.

Has everyone forgotten how horrible working is? 40 hours a week for shit pay, fighting boredom, fighting difficulties, fighting rude members of the public, fighting your human desires to be doing things that dont suck. You do what you CAN to get yourself through the day, and unless you're a professional titty taster, this is always the ****ing case.

Ive no idea why theres a sudden apparent (to me) switch to feeling empathy for the owners of the means of production, the owners, the managers, the bosses. The owner of this salon owns more than ONE salon - her concerns are undoubtably profit related (though theres been no suggestion the salon is going out of business or that shes in financial bother) - why on earth should we be feeling any form of empathy with her?

Obviously as you can tell, i would consider myself decidedly left wing. But im not going to apologise or compromise for that.

Another couple of things that have irritated me recently.

Rentokill cancelling their pension fund and then their share price going up.

Unbelievable over emphasis on "poor consumer spending" over the Christmas period as if we're meant to feel sorry for Next / TopShop etc. I love how spiralling debt and the accumulation of wealth by a minority arent taken into consideration :| Never mind poor value, poor wages, etc etc.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4583236.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4149903.stm

These two articles about Unpaid overtime which talk about it being almost a good thing.

"We need the support of the employee to not put their palm out for every penny for every moment they work," he said.

I think this quote pretty much sums up what im saying. "Employees shouldnt expect to be paid for every hour they work" - is no one else quite as disgusted as me?
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:14   #2
Kurashima
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Ive got to say, this concept for a TV show says "Absoloute shite and appealing to middle class England" all over it.

"Oh look what the plebs are doing dear. Do we have any of those people working in our office?"

"No Jeffrey, theyre all doing lengthy sentences for covering up your sharedealing scam"

"Thats nice. Can i have some more peas now please".
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:26   #3
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

"We need the support of the employee to not put their palm out for every penny for every moment they work,"

Now that is the most obscene thing I've heard in quite a while.
Basically it means 'employees should work to make me richer for nothing'.

I agree about this recent trend to sympathise and emphathise with the business owners rather than the exploited masses. What the hell is driving it though? Is it just the fact that the middle classes are possibly getting a bit richer? That they have decided to illict the general publics sympathy over the fact that they can't go skiing 4 times a year, it'll have to be 3, cause the child minder is demanding more than minimum wage. And how selfish that is, after all they have S-Class Merc payments to make each month too.

If the trend continues, in a few years business leaders will be able to do whatever they like without fear.

At the moment here in Ireland, they are pulling shit like keeping staff all as 'temporary', and just before the 6 month review deadline comes up, firing them. Then rehiring them a week later on a new contract. Means they dont have to pay bank holidays, sick leave, medical insurance, proper wages etc.
Ships are registering in the bahamas just so they can pay Phillipino staff €1 an hour to work the ferries from Ireland to the UK.

And so far...I'm scared of the apathy about it here.
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:39   #4
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncubusGod
"We need the support of the employee to not put their palm out for every penny for every moment they work,"

Now that is the most obscene thing I've heard in quite a while.
Basically it means 'employees should work to make me richer for nothing'.

I agree about this recent trend to sympathise and emphathise with the business owners rather than the exploited masses. What the hell is driving it though? Is it just the fact that the middle classes are possibly getting a bit richer? That they have decided to illict the general publics sympathy over the fact that they can't go skiing 4 times a year, it'll have to be 3, cause the child minder is demanding more than minimum wage. And how selfish that is, after all they have S-Class Merc payments to make each month too.

If the trend continues, in a few years business leaders will be able to do whatever they like without fear.

At the moment here in Ireland, they are pulling shit like keeping staff all as 'temporary', and just before the 6 month review deadline comes up, firing them. Then rehiring them a week later on a new contract. Means they dont have to pay bank holidays, sick leave, medical insurance, proper wages etc.
Ships are registering in the bahamas just so they can pay Phillipino staff €1 an hour to work the ferries from Ireland to the UK.

And so far...I'm scared of the apathy about it here.
The contract thing (hire / fire / renew) has been around for ages. The best variant ive seen of it is when a manufacturing company creates a new employment agency. Its only contract is with that manufacturing company, and therefore they have no workforce, just temps. These temps are hired on 6 month contracts (thats improved, they used to be able to get away with 3 month contracts) and released on completion. Then a week later, they get a call offering them another contract.

No pension fund to worry about.
Minimal NI contributions
Most likely some form of tax break
etc etc.

*paging Dante to thread 2980109 to explain the evils of Capitalism*
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:39   #5
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

The disgusting swing to the right everywhere is going unopposed and even undebated. So long as its gradual and theres no-one voicing any serious opposition, this is the society we're creating.

60 million nodrogs, doing whatever keeps each other down. How unbearably depressing.
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:43   #6
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

They feed on the rest of us, like mosquitos, and we let them live.
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:47   #7
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
The disgusting swing to the right everywhere is going unopposed and even undebated. So long as its gradual and theres no-one voicing any serious opposition, this is the society we're creating.

60 million nodrogs, doing whatever keeps each other down. How unbearably depressing.
Whats most depressing is that our political system allows it to happen, and has now developed to the point where on the ground most working class people care about, its not about which party will screw you, its about which one will screw you the least.

Its depressingly similar to America in its lack of a defining issue between them that people actually want to fight for.

Europe? Who gives a shit.
The NHS? The current mob arent funding it, the others want us to go private.
Outsourcing? Hey , its good for corporation profits.

Etc Etc.
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:56   #8
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

The possible move of the Liberal Democrats to the right is the final nail in the coffin for me, if it happens. Not that they have a chance of power, or even opposition, but deserting the Social liberal stance for the economic liberal stance will mean there is a huge percentage of us that will not even be ROUGHLY represented in parliament.

I'd always thought that the liberals could either stay in the center ground (which no longer exists) or try and outflank labour.

Moving rightward.. i dare not think
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 23:57   #9
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
The NHS? The current mob arent funding it, the others want us to go private.
One of the first things Cameron did was to dounounce an insurance based health system.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:05   #10
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

I agree with a lot of what ejohn says. However, companies are restructuring their pension fund, simply because if they didn't, they'd hit a wall in years to come. I don't see why people have a problem with companies simply doing what essentially is a bit of housekeeping. I am thoroughly against any kind of employer expecting its employees to do unpaid work, because slavery was allegedly abolished years ago.

However, when the jobsworth idiots that run unions are given the scope to run riot, what do you expect apart from a march to the right?
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:16   #11
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
However, when the jobsworth idiots that run unions are given the scope to run riot, what do you expect apart from a march to the right?
Elaborate (genuinly interested).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
However, companies are restructuring their pension fund, simply because if they didn't, they'd hit a wall in years to come. I don't see why people have a problem with companies simply doing what essentially is a bit of housekeeping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
I think the problem is that their "housekeeping", involves doing whatever it takes to improve share prices, irrespective of how it affects their workers or us
Exactly. Improving share prices and stabilising the company takes priority over the people, apparently.

What really gets me as well, is that removing / modifying pension funds is something that (if it has to be done) should be done LONG AFTER something like - say ... restructuring the pyramidical wage structure of the companies?
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:21   #12
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
One of the first things Cameron did was to dounounce an insurance based health system.
And one of the first things he will do once hes in power is attempt to make it law.

The belief that any conservative leader would promote such a theory to do anything other than win votes before going back on it once hes in office is staggeringly naive.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:24   #13
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
And one of the first things he will do once hes in power is attempt to make it law.

The belief that any conservative leader would promote such a theory to do anything other than win votes before going back on it once hes in office is staggeringly naive.
The Tories are more than adequate at pushing through stupid and unpopular ideas.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:26   #14
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

And Lokken's pretty much on the ball regarding the unions. The best example of which ATM is Sunshine Bob and his Crowe-nies.

There are some genuinely good unions, but the following argument put off a host of people where I work from joining

"How much is Union Membership"
"£12 per month"
"So thats £144 a year"
"Yes"
"My salary is £14,000 a year. How much of a payrise did you negotiate for me last year"
"2.5%"
"The cost of living index shows prices went up by 3.2%. So you not only failed to gain me a salary I can live on, but in real terms, you cost me £98 , plus your £144 membership. Meantime the company I work for announced record profits and moved half its workforce to India. Exactly why do I want to sign up for another year?"
"We have these shiny free pens"
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:29   #15
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
Elaborate (genuinly interested).

Exactly. Improving share prices and stabilising the company takes priority over the people, apparently.

What really gets me as well, is that removing / modifying pension funds is something that (if it has to be done) should be done LONG AFTER something like - say ... restructuring the pyramidical wage structure of the companies?
Well, you only need to hear an interview with a union leader to know that they think they can pedant their way to extra rights and bleat about workers rights when they haven't got the first clue. Most of them seem to be more concerned with power trips rather than actually doing anything particularly constructive.

Well, as directors owe a duty to the company which is essentially property of its shareholders (who employ them to run the company), what do you expect. Companies need to keep running to keep people in jobs and in my opinion, the pensions issue is potentially fatal to a lot of businesses, rather than penny pinching and being plain mean for not paying employees what's rightfully owed to them for the hours they work. If there is one thing at my current part time employment that gripes me, it's that I don't get paid for the 10 minutes it takes to close the shop - but then again, they don't have to give me any kind of staff benefits, so it's give and take.

And in what way is a final salary representative of the time as a whole worked at a company anyway? Surely basing it on the average of wages earned over that time seems far more fair.

As for pyramadical wage structure, what's wrong with a meritocracy exactly? Or are you simply suggesting that people at the top should be paid less?
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:37   #16
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

considering what a company is, and that the shareholders delegate to the directors who delegate and so on and so on, if you disagree with the way a company pays, then you disagree with the very idea of a company.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:39   #17
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
heh
remember though, that outsourcing to india is probably the reason the union has such little bargaining power in the first place.
Yes, this is very, very true.

However, the best one ive seen so far was Lloyds TSB Union.

Now, being a British Company, with a British name, and nowhere near the international presence of HSBC , LTSB contacted a consultancy to look at the prospect of moving certain processes to India.

Immediately the union was on the case. There were pamphlets everywhere outlining their proposal, how they had promised this wouldnt happen beyond a set number of bodies, how they were outsourcing everything and how YOUR job was in jeopardy if you didnt sign up.

Thing is, they printed stats from their previous negotiations. In 2004. Where they had agreed to a trial run of 500 jobs in India as long as no redundancies were made. The jobs they listed as "Under Threat" were already being done in India.

In short, a lot of unions now are scaremongering to get members because theyre basically shit at what they do. All the union reps who actually could negotiate got new jobs in the company with bigger salaries and a job that meant they had no time to do union stuff, so they resigned their posts.

The only unions thriving now are those whos workforce cant be moved overseas.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 00:55   #18
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

i think the main problem with these arguments is that people blur the line between 'neccessary corporate ethics' and 'basic human decency' - somehow the first is needed and the second isnt. Does a company NEED to give its workers a pension scheme, or provide long-term contracts? No. If someone spends 40 years working for your benefit, is it unreasonable to suggest you don't deliberately **** them over at every opportunity? No.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 01:07   #19
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

well of course it has duties to other entities and for things like health and safety, but you can sum up that the overwhelming duty is that to the company itself.

The shareholders own the company, they appoint the directors to run it.

Directors are responsible for the whole company.

They then delegate that responsibility because they couldn't possibly deal with it themselves, but the buck still stops with them.

Hence why there's a pyramidic pay structure.

The reason why companies are so protected is simply because they're a great way of generating cash into the economy, and providing jobs. And without jobs there's no such thing as worker's rights.

To me the very idea of company promotes a pyramid wage structure. That's not to say however that everyone in the pyramid shouldn't be treated equally as well or equally as fairly in that they're paid for the time they work at the going rate for the work they do rather than being expected to do overtime for free as a matter of course. What we're talking about in this thread is what's fair and reasonable, rather than how companies make some people more wealthy than others, because that's what I believe is inherent to them.

If you paid a worker for the hours he worked at the going rate, with reasonable pension scheme and worker benefits, what's unfair in that?
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 01:18   #20
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Obviously we'd need to define our terms here, but I don't believe there has been a fundamental shift to the right in any real sense. Views on immigration, crime & punishment, the right to protest, access to contraception, etc - all of these views have become progressively more liberal certainly over the last ten or twenty years.

The media, is of course, more right wing on most economic issues than it's readers. This is unsurprising. The people who write for the newspapers, the people who own them and the people who pay much of the costs (i.e. advertisers) are wealthier than the readership. It's pretty naive to presume the readership is going to dictate the line. Which is why on every strike the papers will tend to oppose it, irrespective of how their readership feel.

London is a good example here. Our main newspaper (the Evening Standard) is very anti-Ken Livingstone most of the time, yet he has won two seperate elections, the first of which he didn't even have the backing of a political party. On current trends he could easily win another.

As for unions : it's a mistake to presume the beauracratic leadership in most cases want anything else but crumbs from the table for their members and decent expense accounts for themselves. There are some notable exceptions, but when they do strike they are instantly villified in the press for "greed". Despite the fact tube drivers (or firemen or whomever) earn far less than many other professions they are "greedy" for wanting to defend their status, a line gleefully repeated by our idiot press. Bob Crow wants to "ruin New Years" for Londoners apparently, despite the fact there was an offer to delay the strike made if the new rota was similarly delayed. The less thinking members of our community will parrot this line repeating silly abusive slogans or childish name calling of strike leaders. Again, this is all hardly surprising.

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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 01:21   #21
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
To me the very idea of company promotes a pyramid wage structure.
This hardly seems like a given. If it is (which I would dispute) then I am happy to imagine a future without "companies" (defining this in a peculiar way as a private body dedicated to inquality).
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 01:23   #22
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Talking of the media, the front of today's evening standard is disgusting regarding this strike, especially considering the london bombings were only 6 months ago.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 01:46   #23
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

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Originally Posted by lokken
Talking of the media, the front of today's evening standard is disgusting regarding this strike, especially considering the london bombings were only 6 months ago.
Welcome to London.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 02:10   #24
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
heh
remember though, that outsourcing to india is probably the reason the union has such little bargaining power in the first place.
So you're instead in favour of a closed shop?

Outsourcing to India has only occurred in the last 5 years. The unions' loss of bargaining power is primarily as a result of the laws Thatcher passed in the mid-1980s. And for those who hate Thatcher - just look at France's unions, where their government has folded to the unions on every occasion since.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 02:19   #25
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So you're instead in favour of a closed shop?
How on earth is what he said related to the principle of a closed shop?
Quote:
And for those who hate Thatcher - just look at France's unions, where their government has folded to the unions on every occasion since.
Even if that were true (and it isn't) then you need to supply reasons why that's actually a bad thing.

Anyway, the Unions have only themselves to blame for their decline. Yes, the law has been against them, yes there has been outsourcing, so what? At the end of the day the unions of this country could shut 90% of enterprise in this country if they (and their members) desired it. But they do not, preferring to trust that when a Labour government eventually gets into power all their prayers will be answered. Well, hopefully they've learnt their lesson (although I doubt it).
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 02:24   #26
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
Ive no idea why theres a sudden apparent (to me) switch to feeling empathy for the owners of the means of production
In response to the original post which I've just re-read, you can't honestly be serious about the above? A sudden switch....? What? The coverage of labour disputes has been biased since...well, since there's been coverage of labour disputes.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 02:33   #27
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

A closed shop is the epitome of union control, and horn was talking about his displeasure re: loss of union power. At least that was how I interpreted what he was saying.

As for France - the 35 hour working week has been heavily criticised for failing to increase job numbers, one of the few economics benefits hoped to come from it. Instead, those who have a job are worked harder and expected to be more productive. Guess who had been calling for it? The unions.

The unions in France have found how to hurt the government - by blockading the ports, which makes foreign relations rather messy. Some French unions are weak, but the key ones are strong - transportation, education, manufacturing and heavy industry. All of these are key to a nation's economy. Their power/control over this is a bad thing when it has a negative effect on the economy.


Anyway, bedtime for me, work tomorrow
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 02:35   #28
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The coverage of labour disputes has been biased since...well, since there's been coverage of labour disputes.
I agree. There's absolutly no-one impartial when it comes to labour disputes.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 03:23   #29
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
A closed shop is the epitome of union control, and horn was talking about his displeasure re: loss of union power.
you're in favour of first-trimester abortions so logically you want to kill all 4-year-olds too, is that it? IS THAT IT? HUH? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 03:25   #30
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In response to the original post which I've just re-read, you can't honestly be serious about the above? A sudden switch....? What? The coverage of labour disputes has been biased since...well, since there's been coverage of labour disputes.
Im obviously wrong, maybe its just something ive noticed recently. I'm not the only one with "little guy" mentality when it comes to "us vs the corporation", but its just recent coverage thats kicked me in the sack.

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The Tories are more than adequate at pushing through stupid and unpopular ideas.
I like the "I've got the power!" picture they use for David Cameron
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 03:32   #31
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

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Originally Posted by Phang
you're in favour of first-trimester abortions so logically you want to kill all 4-year-olds too, is that it? IS THAT IT? HUH? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?
Sounds entirely reasonable to me.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 09:14   #32
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I agree with a lot of what ejohn says. However, companies are restructuring their pension fund, simply because if they didn't, they'd hit a wall in years to come. I don't see why people have a problem with companies simply doing what essentially is a bit of housekeeping.
I really disagree with this. They should not have promised pension funds they weren't going to keep. People have stayed with companies for quite a while for the pension. Using my dad as an example, he could earn far more as an electrician, but he stayed with Rentokil fitting alarms for the pension scheme. They screwed him out of that, his notice was put in the day after Rentokil announced the pension etc.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 13:54   #33
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
I really disagree with this. They should not have promised pension funds they weren't going to keep. People have stayed with companies for quite a while for the pension. Using my dad as an example, he could earn far more as an electrician, but he stayed with Rentokil fitting alarms for the pension scheme. They screwed him out of that, his notice was put in the day after Rentokil announced the pension etc.

Rentokill are a bit of an exception at the moment, they are the only ones who shut their final salary pension scheme to existing members (which seems really dodgy to me). All the others who are changing their pension schemes are only shutting them to new employers so they know what they will get getting when they join the firm. Assuming everyone doesn't start doing what Rentokil did then I don't really have a problem with this.

Personally though I'm not sure I trust anyone to help with my pension, I will be planning as if I don't even get a state one.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 14:58   #34
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
Has everyone forgotten how horrible working is? 40 hours a week for shit pay, fighting boredom, fighting difficulties, fighting rude members of the public, fighting your human desires to be doing things that dont suck. You do what you CAN to get yourself through the day, and unless you're a professional titty taster, this is always the ****ing case.
Didnt you say elsewhere that you were still a student of some sort, or was that someone else?
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 15:46   #35
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

I love how Lokken talks about the "pyramid wage structure". It reminds me of Ricardo, the british economist who Marx smashed to bits over a 100 years ago...

How ironic is that those who actually produces the wealth remains at the bottom, in any way.

A norwegian social scientist just wrote something along this:
The more interesting a job is, the better paid it is, the more benefits are given and the easier it is to get further promotion. The most boring and physical demanding jobs on the other hand, is paid shit, no benefits and you can forget about promotion.

No wonder the employers are so keen at removing the "bottom" of the labour market, trough taking away unemployment benefits and redusing socialcare, so that people have to que up to get minimum wage jobs.

Still they complain. Like the owner of the shipyards in Norway, who complains that young folks dont want to become welders and so on. At the same time they have more or less stopped giving people regular full time jobs. Even if its a boom in the sector (due to high oil prices), they employ just 60% in regular full time jobs compared to a few years ago. The rest is rented in for smaller periods and alot ofcourse beeing from eastern Europe.

Not like the EU is helping ofc, but that never was the idea.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4584616.stm
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:25   #36
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

On a sidenote, I'm willing to bet that a lot (most) of the people doing unpaid overtime are office workers in decent middle class jobs (think City types) who are doing it to advance their careers, rather than working class people being 'trod into the ground'. But hey, who cares about potential facts when theres a possibility of going on an illeducated rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Unions... the law has been against them
Hardly. Being protected against being fired for striking far outweighs any legal opposition they have had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I love how Lokken talks about the "pyramid wage structure". It reminds me of Ricardo, the british economist who Marx smashed to bits over a 100 years ago...
]
Marx is fairly irrelevant within modern economics, while Ricardo's work on comparative advantage is still widely used. But hey.

Last edited by Nodrog; 10 Jan 2006 at 16:33.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:31   #37
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

And I bet half of those office workers have overtime included in they're pay. Besdies, they are sitting in a comfy chair in a warm office and not having any custumers breathing down on em.

Sometimes I just love coming from a working class family. It makes it so easy not to care for some people
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:31   #38
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm willing to bet that a lot (most) of the people doing unpaid overtime are office workers in decent middle class jobs (think City types)
If you are seriously suggesting that a majority of overtime is done by "city types" (depending on how you're defining this) then I would definitely take that bet. Office workers perhaps, but the vast majority of office workers aren't "city types"*.

* = Unless you're going to use a really stupid definition of a city type, e.g. "they work in a metropolitan area" or something like that.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:33   #39
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Hardly. Being protected against being fired for striking far outweighs any legal opposition they have had.
That's a bit of a subjective one, but since the previous posters were talking about declines (i.e. relative changes) it's safe to say that the law in the 1980's changed for the worst in terms of unions.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:35   #40
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If you are seriously suggesting that a majority of overtime is done by "city types" (depending on how you're defining this) then I would definitely take that bet. Office workers perhaps, but the vast majority of office workers aren't "city types"*.
.
I've no evidence that its office workers in decent jobs with good promotion prospects, but then noone else in this thread has given any evidence that its primarilly the 'working class' either. eJohn's initial post was pointless speculation supported by nothing whatsoever, and this trend has continued throughout the discussion.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:36   #41
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But hey, who cares about potential facts when theres a possibility of going on an illeducated rant!


Hardly. Being protected against being fired for striking far outweighs any legal opposition they have had.
"Potential facts" is perhaps the best spin ive ever seen. That doesnt mean anything at all, just "i think i could be proved right". Great stuff, sport.


On the second point, i'm afraid not everyone agrees with your ridiculously authoritarian point of view.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:43   #42
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Using basic mathematics, the "average wage" of the two bbc links appears to be £12.56 an hour, which is quite high.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:46   #43
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
eJohn's initial post was pointless speculation supported by nothing whatsoever, and this trend has continued throughout the discussion.
eJohn's original post didn't say anything about "working class" people doing overtime, it just said something about employee's doing extra work based on a BBC story.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 16:48   #44
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Using basic mathematics, the "average wage" of the two bbc links appears to be £12.56 an hour, which is quite high.
I'd imagine we'd be more interested on who was doing the majority of the hours worked which is going to be skewed by any overtime done by any highly paid members of staff.

In my company, the highest paid managers often do put in very long hours and they might even represent the majority (in financial terms) of theoretical unpaid wages. But they certainly don't represent the majority of the hours done, simply by merit there are so few of them.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 17:18   #45
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
"Potential facts" is perhaps the best spin ive ever seen. That doesnt mean anything at all,
It means "the story doesnt provide enough data to allow one to form a justifiableinterpretation, hence the rational thing to do is to look for more facts rather than just making up whatever you want to be true".

Quote:
On the second point, i'm afraid not everyone agrees with your ridiculously authoritarian point of view.
Words have meanings, you dont just get to insert terms like 'authoritarian' into random sentences to make them sound good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
eJohn's original post didn't say anything about "working class" people doing overtime, it just said something about employee's doing extra work based on a BBC story.
True, but I think it was fair inference given everything else he said. He doesnt seem like the sort of person who's likely to be concerned about business executives having to work too hard.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 17:27   #46
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In my company, the highest paid managers often do put in very long hours and they might even represent the majority (in financial terms) of theoretical unpaid wages. But they certainly don't represent the majority of the hours done, simply by merit there are so few of them.
It's not really conclusive of anything, other than that it's not just "people at the top" doing it in significant numbers, given that it doesn't tell us the variance or give figures to get it - I just thought it was interesting.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 17:28   #47
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

What did i actually state apart from that i think its appalling businesses shouldnt expect people to be paid for the hours they worked?

And if thinking those who strike shouldnt be protected from being fired isnt authoritarian, im not sure what is. If i was concerned about sounding good, i wouldnt have received 20 neg reps to date for faking an IRC quote of myself in a sig.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 17:30   #48
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
What did i actually state apart from that i think its appalling businesses shouldnt expect people to be paid for the hours they worked?
You don't really know about what the circumstances are. The quote referred to people working unpaid overtime because it's good for the business, and in many cases working unpaid overtime and working is better than not working at all - especially if a significant number of the employees this refers to have some sort of internal benefit scheme. It's a quote that we don't know the context for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
And if thinking those who strike shouldnt be protected from being fired isnt authoritarian, im not sure what is.
Strawman.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 17:51   #49
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
like outsourcing the striker's job ?
on face value, strikers might have more "weighty" laws on their side but taken into context how little power they have in the first place, they still come out worse don't they ?

It's like saying Iraq could of taken on america & britain etc because russia gave them a few missles but gave us nothing.
(obviously russia was infact us but you know what i mean)
I don't think you understood nod's post very well. Read it, and the post it was replying to, again.

Saying that "outsourcing jobs" is a legal opposition is nonsensical.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 17:53   #50
eJohn
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Re: When did we stop siding with the people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Strawman.
he attacked my use of a word, so i explained the context. you're on a hiding to nothing here.
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