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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:15   #1
berten
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Drastically lower alliance tag limit

I don't see why pa-team didn't do this change this round allready.

The community obviously decided the current tags were to big/unmanageable/not fun and choose to play with smaller tags.

We have 7 'BG's with 20-40 members, 4 alliances that are struggling to fill up 2/3 rd of their tag and 2 alliances that managed to recruit to 90 members.

I think if pa team had reacted upon the obvious hints given by the community that there would be a lot of smaller tags playing, we currently wouldn't have this "Hey, you and me gonna fight for 3rd spot" attitude that is shared by everyone except those in Asc and xVx.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:26   #2
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

I am loving the vindication here. Loving it.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:39   #3
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

hey maybe you should get some more friends i'm just saying what everyone's thinking man...
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:45   #4
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

The community hasnt spoken.

and whats wrong with fighting for the #3rd spot? Its still fighting after all..
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 18:38   #5
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

has been lots of argueing over this.. as light said the community hasnt spoken yet then i will just say what i would like.. 40 man tags ftw, all counting towards tag score
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 18:46   #6
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

This round will be the third in a line where we've had high amount of players in a tag. It obviously have not worked. I think that it is time to try smaller tags for next round. Tags around 40 planets should suffice.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 18:51   #7
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

drop the limit to 60.. atleast for summer duration, we all know summer is the most lazy rounds ever aka least amount of players, always have been always will be.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 18:56   #8
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

There's more of the community in xvx and ascendancy than there is in all those smaller bgs put together you ****ing moron. Jesus ****ing christ can people not even add
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 19:06   #9
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

The fact that most smaller large allies tag up early has been going on for years, it happens like this every round.

I still wanted lower alliance limits, yet enough people seemed inclined to not want this because they want to "play" with thier friends. I only know about 15 people directly (prob even less), most of those in rock (and some now in xvx).

Next round I'm thinking about looking at a BG, but with current alliance sizes, it will be hard for all but the dedicated of them.

DLR did a great job last round, but only faulted at the last minute. This was partly due to most of the universe taking them out (which did hand 12:5 the gal win thanks muchly).

So please reduce the size for next round, 50 max.

In all fairness I would prefer playing in an 100% active group, and would love to play with an ally of 20-30 dedicated players.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 19:12   #10
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

This thread is pretty useless.

Its come when the round has only just started, using this round as the basis for lowering the alliance limit.. When we all knew going into the round Asc would dominate weither the alliance limit was 120, 90, or 60.

If you feel the same way, you should make this thread when the round is drawing to a close and we can see the results of this round. Do the smaller BG's/alliances have enough power and members to hit the top players and galaxys? what happends at the end of the round when galaxys get huge and a skill-gap appears in planet rankings, and most importantly.. will these smaller BG's be more inclined to go to war? or will afew of them fencesit while the others war? etc.

Its also important to note, that just bcus the PA Team hard-code alliance limits into the game.. Does not mean that alliances will abide by them. Im pretty sure Asc wouldnt split its community just bcus Appocomaster says so.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 19:17   #11
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Gals won't get huge, there's no disband function. You're looking at a max of 16/17 planets I'd guess. Also this thread is 30% shorter so you're talking 30% less time for a value gap to develop.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 20:34   #12
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

I've said on many occasions that i'd like to see ally limits halved - in general the only people that dont want it halved are people in allys that can field the maximum amount.

The dynamic of PA should continue to change, its been rather stagnant in the past few rounds with only minor changes to the stats and ally size/rules staying fairly similar. Anyway i've always wanted to see if the peripheral asc groupies can beat the core in a roid race, id love to see an asc c team vs asc a team!
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 21:10   #13
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Thing is, there won't be an Asc A vs. Asc B team. It might just mean that more people in Ascendancy will take a laid back approach and play support planets for the tag that will form. Well, either that, or multiple tags blocking. And personally I think that an alliance ranking consisting of top 3 or top 5 tags all being asc is far worse than the current situation.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 21:20   #14
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

The playerbase in pa is way to small for alliance limits around 80-100.

I think and hope that a reducement in alliance limits would make Planetarion a more dynamic and exciting to play. Its actually hard to find alot of arguments against lower alliance limits.

You could always say that;

There will always be some form elite alliance, ruling everyone else.
Yeah, ofc there will be, but it would be far easier to take down such a alliance with more alliances around. Gangbangs etc.
But then again, blocks might form. But thats just politics.
Still be easier to take down number one alliances compared to rounds like this with few very good huge alliances.

But there is not enough good leadership around to make these alliances work.
In this case im pretty sure other people will show themselfs worthy of running a alliance. And with less people it should be easier to control aswell, and a better community inside the alliance. Thus making the quality of the members inside a alliance higher.

The main issue as I see it is the alliance tools inside the game. This is utterly crap, and completely useless. When people cant use these tools properly they tend to look elsewhere. Like outside alliances pages, defbots, attackbots, etc.
The resource usage for small alliances would not be worthwhile putting up. Atleast I would think twice about getting something up becouse of all the hassle around it.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 21:37   #15
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

The reasons for not lowering the alliance limit to far are:
1. Alliances dont have to abide by it, can keep all there members and just use multiple tags.
2. Not enough command staff, each alliance would need DC's, BC's, HC's and Planetarion community doesnt have enough.
3. lower-tiered players will be forced into lower ranking alliances and will get less defence due to it. The top small alliances wont accept anyone below par..
4. Scanners? where are all these new alliances going to find dedicated scanners? you'll have multiple alliances without scan coverage.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 22:04   #16
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
1. Alliances dont have to abide by it, can keep all there members and just use multiple tags.
Like Napping that we have currently, but more of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
2. Not enough command staff, each alliance would need DC's, BC's, HC's and Planetarion community doesnt have enough.
"Great leaders are made, not born"...

I feel that because alliance limits are so large, players dont feel the need to step up and create an alliance from the base up. Creating smaller alliances also creates a smaller easier structure to control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
3. lower-tiered players will be forced into lower ranking alliances and will get less defence due to it. The top small alliances wont accept anyone below par..
Most alliance have a policy system of "Do Not Defend", meaning that people who defend more get higher priority for defence themselves. This then places players into seperate entities with in the alliance.

So your idea also means that all we need is 1 Alliance, because no one wants to be 2nd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
4. Scanners? where are all these new alliances going to find dedicated scanners? you'll have multiple alliances without scan coverage.
Since the time scanning changed from Random chance (Amps % Dists) to fixed value (Amps > Dists), problems for anyone wanting to play the game has increased. I do feel that removing Amps+Dists will balance this out again. Why should scanning be left to the few who have to dedicate their round to it.

I mean look at the fact that we have a dedicated scanning room on irc, not always active, but its their. So surely there is an issue with scanning.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 22:06   #17
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

No one is stopping you from creating small alliances. Go wild. Also, listen to Light.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 22:12   #18
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

1. They could, but. Would you really like to be a part of a support alliance round after round? Anyone keen and good enough would want to be a part of a winning alliance. You might get tons of players playing for planet in those support tags however.
2. If you are able to involve members more some might just take the step up and be your missing dc/bc/hc or whatever. Besides, in small alliances the need for dc/bc/hcs is less than in huge ones.
3. Well, ofcourse. Top alliances aint made by shit players? I wouldnt recruit a player that I didnt think have potential. Cant really expect to start at the top right away?
4. Agree, this would be a huge issue.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 22:13   #19
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Alliance win != tag win.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 22:16   #20
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Yeah, :/
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 23:31   #21
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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2. Not enough command staff, each alliance would need DC's, BC's, HC's and Planetarion community doesnt have enough.
When the lower limits were used this is the kind of argument we kept seeing from the top tier alliances members and command staff. However as MrLobster alluded Leadership isn't usually something that the best leaders go out and look for, its not about the prestige its simply something they get the chance to experience and do so for the benefit of others and ultimately end up being good at it and get better the more they learn from doing it.

The reason for the seemingly lack of leaders isn't that there arent people out there with the potential, its that they are never called on to show the potential they have. When there's no need to step up often the only people who do are those who are after the 'glory' BUT when there's a pressing need the right people will step up. Just going on F-Crew alone we have seen hundreds of people with real leadership potential pass our door and most we took advantage of but many of these when they did join someone else were never needed to have these skills utilised so never stepped up. The leadership is there and if the balance is got right between not spreading it too too thinly (As any alliance needs team of these people with potential who will stick through what may initially be hard times) and not having all the potential leaders stuck in the same few alliances where they don't need to step up the depth of alliances is just waiting to grow.

Quite frankly there was a period before the 'we need a higher limit' group put us on the limit rollarcoaster of the last 10+ rounds where the depth in alliances was really growing but a single drastic rise undid the rounds of good work and the constant changes have never let it gain a foothold again
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 23:41   #22
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Centronic
They could, but. Would you really like to be a part of a support alliance round after round? Anyone keen and good enough would want to be a part of a winning alliance. You might get tons of players playing for planet in those support tags however.
To me the alliance is what wins the round. Being intag just means you had the greatest score giving potential. Hell it doesn't even mean that anymore, it means that for the top 60 members and the other 30 guys are the best potential replacements/support planets for those 60.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 04:11   #23
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

if dropping the limit were ever to work, support planet rule would have to be reimplemented and made way more strict so it wasnt abuseable by asc,
and if that happened i guess pa would loose some asc players.
though personally im all for smaller allies as then asc might be knocked of their big white horse.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 04:24   #24
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Dropping alliance limits isnt the solution to Asc.

What needs to be, is to make War more enjoyable and less harsh. The game needs to be changed to encourage War and make being hit less of a problem, this can also be solved by making noob bashing/fence sitting less viable .
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 07:48   #25
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Dropping alliance limits isnt the solution to Asc.

What needs to be, is to make War more enjoyable and less harsh. The game needs to be changed to encourage War and make being hit less of a problem, this can also be solved by making noob bashing/fence sitting less viable .
Give us atleast 2-3h staying defence fleets.. and you get war, no-one wants to frigging DC 5-6h's every morning your galaxy has incoming because of the shitty system what's nothing close to player friendly.

War less harsh... so long as rounds are short.. war is bad for bussiness. And you can't anyways fight wars with the current system in place.. I mean 20% roids per tick or was it 25%.. lost and you get 5-6 waves of 3-4 people minimium on you in war in each wave..No1 but unemployed people or students can manage that, and tbh most of us do work these days the old guard of pa isn't anymore 15 or so, we'r like 25.. and those who are older are even older than 25..

What do you think are the odd's keeping those roids when facing thatkind of onslaught for 2-3 days in a non top50 planet.. I can only imagine that your basically packing your stuff and preparing to go inactive/support planet role at that point when you know it's going to take 2-3 weeks to get roids back.

About tag limits.. Alliances size of 60 or even less.. who cares, we would anyways split out, and reduce gal size to 12 at max... Everyone would like to be part of small group what can roid atleast 2 galaxies a night in organised raids and with current system 2-3 waves on each planet.. that's your alliance size related to galaxy size issue.

Anyways tired to explain more and in more coherent language as you guys should know better and see how pa works.. you have been playing it long time... so step back.. and take a bigger look.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 08:55   #26
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
There's more of the community in xvx and ascendancy than there is in all those smaller bgs put together you ****ing moron. Jesus ****ing christ can people not even add
LoL quite constructive tbh.

and looking at tags etc i'd say the numbers are about equal (altough that is beside the point)

Quote:
Originally Posted by light
Its come when the round has only just started, using this round as the basis for lowering the alliance limit.. When we all knew going into the round Asc would dominate weither the alliance limit was 120, 90, or 60.
Agreed, i should've suggested it before this round started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Thing is, there won't be an Asc A vs. Asc B team. It might just mean that more people in Ascendancy will take a laid back approach and play support planets for the tag that will form. Well, either that, or multiple tags blocking. And personally I think that an alliance ranking consisting of top 3 or top 5 tags all being asc is far worse than the current situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
1. Alliances dont have to abide by it, can keep all there members and just use multiple tags.
This could indeed happen, but would you really play for an tag that can't win, or join an ally/bg that can fight the #1 alliance with equal power (i imagine 40 planets in a tag is doable for everyone). I think rather then those asc mid-section playing in a 2nd-3rd tag, they can be drawn out to play for another alliance. (Afaik, they haven't been Asc for their entire pa career, so why would they stay asc).

Next to that we still have the support rule that could be re-invoked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
2. Not enough command staff, each alliance would need DC's, BC's, HC's and Planetarion community doesnt have enough.
We saw 7 new alliances this round, all with their respective dc/bc/hc 's.
I'm pretty sure that theirs plenty of people willing to give it a try if giving the chance. At the moment it's just not possible to create an alliance, and be successfull. It's the swarm of small alliances that made Pa big around 2000, cause everyone could start something and see how it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
3. lower-tiered players will be forced into lower ranking alliances and will get less defence due to it. The top small alliances wont accept anyone below par..
How is this any difference then now? Planetarion isn't hard to play, it's a ridicoulously easy game, you just need to be active, if a new player can bring that up, i'd take him in any time. He'll develop the necessary skills fast enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
4. Scanners? where are all these new alliances going to find dedicated scanners? you'll have multiple alliances without scan coverage.
Agreed, but then again the scanning system has been flawed for ages.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 09:37   #27
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
I think rather then those asc mid-section playing in a 2nd-3rd tag, they can be drawn out to play for another alliance. (Afaik, they haven't been Asc for their entire pa career, so why would they stay asc).
This is exactly what (at least a lot of people in) Ascendancy are actually favouring over artificially limiting alliances: If you want people to not play for Ascendancy then go and make them want to join your alliance. It is not Ascendancy's fault that its members don't want to join elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
Next to that we still have the support rule that could be re-invoked
And the support planet rule is the biggest pile of rubbish this game has ever seen. The outcome of the game should be decided by its game mechanics, not by some arbitrary rules that inconsistently enforced.
And, with that in mind: Quite a few people in this thread did more complain about broken game mechanics than anything else, and use that as an argument for lowering alliance limits. Seriously, think again about that. I do fully agree that this game's mechanics are utterly broken, inconsistent and enforce too much one-dimensional gameplay. But I urge everyone to reconsider whether those broken mechanics are really fixed by lowering the alliance limit. In my opinion they aren't, and maybe someone can once again post the statistic for "amount of players per round linked to alliance limits" to show that it would actually do more harm than good to have lower limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
We saw 7 new alliances this round, all with their respective dc/bc/hc 's.
I count 3. In the top 15 tags. Where do you get those other 4 alliances from?
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 09:55   #28
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

I think an a natural development with lower tags will be that tag 2 will eventually want to do its own thing, a new community will emerge from any alliance that field a tag 1 and tag 2. Who wants to play in a secondary tag anyways.

Give it a shot for one round, we've tried higher limits for two rounds, and it's not really doing much for the game. Let's see what a low limit will do.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:00   #29
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

If it's a fun round for the BG's and small allies and it's a boring round for Asc members (which it will be) then I think people will naturally start drifting away eventually.

That said, if as Asc says they don't adhere to the ally limits anyway, why don't we just stick em down to 40 and let Asc just have 60 more people than they should, rather than 10?
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:01   #30
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
This could indeed happen, but would you really play for an tag that can't win, or join an ally/bg that can fight the #1 alliance with equal power (i imagine 40 planets in a tag is doable for everyone). I think rather then those asc mid-section playing in a 2nd-3rd tag, they can be drawn out to play for another alliance. (Afaik, they haven't been Asc for their entire pa career, so why would they stay asc).
Where is this deluded notion that smaller tag limits results in more competition for #1 coming from? It's not true at all, and I'll point you towards round 16 once again. There were loads of alliances with 60 members, yet it was only 1up and ND fighting for the #1 rank before Asc tagged up. It clearly doesn't increase competition. The rounds we've had most competition for #1 rank are 15 and 30, with 4 alliances in it until close to the end. I can't remember the ally limits in round 15, but they were 100 last round.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:02   #31
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
This is exactly what (at least a lot of people in) Ascendancy are actually favouring over artificially limiting alliances: If you want people to not play for Ascendancy then go and make them want to join your alliance. It is not Ascendancy's fault that its members don't want to join elsewhere.



And the support planet rule is the biggest pile of rubbish this game has ever seen. The outcome of the game should be decided by its game mechanics, not by some arbitrary rules that inconsistently enforced.
And, with that in mind: Quite a few people in this thread did more complain about broken game mechanics than anything else, and use that as an argument for lowering alliance limits. Seriously, think again about that. I do fully agree that this game's mechanics are utterly broken, inconsistent and enforce too much one-dimensional gameplay. But I urge everyone to reconsider whether those broken mechanics are really fixed by lowering the alliance limit. In my opinion they aren't, and maybe someone can once again post the statistic for "amount of players per round linked to alliance limits" to show that it would actually do more harm than good to have lower limits.



I count 3. In the top 15 tags. Where do you get those other 4 alliances from?

Sorry, i took dlr as a new ally also (they were new last rnd)

Tof/spooooon/evolution/wafhh/insomnia/ec are bg's i'm aware off
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:20   #32
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
Where is this deluded notion that smaller tag limits results in more competition for #1 coming from? It's not true at all, and I'll point you towards round 16 once again. There were loads of alliances with 60 members, yet it was only 1up and ND fighting for the #1 rank before Asc tagged up. It clearly doesn't increase competition. The rounds we've had most competition for #1 rank are 15 and 30, with 4 alliances in it until close to the end. I can't remember the ally limits in round 15, but they were 100 last round.

Well first, by drastically lowering i'd bring'm down further then 60. 40-50 seems more to what i'd aim for.

And idd, not all alliances will be up to the standard to aim for #1 rank. But there will be more then 1.

Planetarion just does not have enough players to play with 90+ member alliances. Last round asc was the only one that finished with 100 members.

Look i'm not saying it's asc's fault that they are the only alliance that can fill up their tag. They are the best and have earned that. But it's a sad given no other ally will be able to put up a fight vs those 100 ASC.

maybe if limits are lower, some alliances would actually put in the effort to at least try
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:28   #33
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Crowly View Post
If it's a fun round for the BG's and small allies and it's a boring round for Asc members (which it will be) then I think people will naturally start drifting away eventually.

That said, if as Asc says they don't adhere to the ally limits anyway, why don't we just stick em down to 40 and let Asc just have 60 more people than they should, rather than 10?
Where did you get that illusion from that Asc people will be bored if they have to split over several tags? You are underestimating us. Ascendancy, even in the rounds where we did not play for the #1 tag rank, always managed to drag some fun out of this game one way or another. Even if it was just to bash some top ranked planet out of a possible planet ranking win.

Next question: Why should the game try to please "bg's" and "small allies" instead of all people equally? There's a fundamental misconception to think that any changes in the current game should actually be in favour of any subset of the current playerbase. If the game finally gets some important changes done, then those changes should open up the game to a bigger market (f.e. the casual players which don't want to have to get up at night to save their ships).

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
Sorry, i took dlr as a new ally also (they were new last rnd)

Tof/spooooon/evolution/wafhh/insomnia/ec are bg's i'm aware off
Insomnia isn't new, they just "reappeared". Same goes for ToF. So it really is "only" three new alliances appearing (OK, 4 in top 20, counting EC in). Despite the high alliance member limit, strange that, ain't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
I think an a natural development with lower tags will be that tag 2 will eventually want to do its own thing, a new community will emerge from any alliance that field a tag 1 and tag 2. Who wants to play in a secondary tag anyways.

Give it a shot for one round, we've tried higher limits for two rounds, and it's not really doing much for the game. Let's see what a low limit will do.
Or we just look at the statistics about planets per round and alliance member limit up from the past 20 rounds or so and take a look at that.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:36   #34
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

I've always said that the current players are less important than new recruits, or retaining new recruits rather.

Like... in about 50 posts.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:37   #35
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
And idd, not all alliances will be up to the standard to aim for #1 rank. But there will be more then 1.
This round is just strange because people are going for the small alliance option instead of joining big alliances as always and having multiple tags with 90 members.

Quote:
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Planetarion just does not have enough players to play with 90+ member alliances. Last round asc was the only one that finished with 100 members
Yet every ally in the top 5 had 60 members counting for score... The 100 limit is somewhat more helpful for def but score was done on the top60 so it wasn't anywhere near as uneven as people keep suggesting.
CT and Omen both had over 100 members during the round, they just couldn't retain them.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:39   #36
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Or we can compare the classical fall of a big alliance that have been dominating a few rounds with the current dominating alliance. The dominating alliance falls apart in the end due to the lack of opposition and boredom. This will probably happen faster with a reduced alliance limit.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:44   #37
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Or we can compare the classical fall of a big alliance that have been dominating a few rounds with the current dominating alliance. The dominating alliance falls apart in the end due to the lack of opposition and boredom. This will probably happen faster with a reduced alliance limit.
Err, make up your mind. First you say that it will be boredom breaking the domination of a current alliance. I am not disagreeing with that hypothesis, as it does not just sound plausible but has been shown by pa history over and over again.
However, I fail to understand how reduced alliance limits would speed that up, given that those reduced limits would be there to create more competition, thus making it more interesting and less boring for the dominating alliance again. Care to elaborate?

I mean, come on people, I am trying to bring up a healthy discussion about this here, it cannot be that easy to make you all run out of arguments again.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:45   #38
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
maybe someone can once again post the statistic for "amount of players per round linked to alliance limits" to show that it would actually do more harm than good to have lower limits.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6690/image1ddi.png

The red line is the alliance limit of each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The blue line is the average members per alliance in each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The green line is the number of alliances playing each round, using the secondary Y-axis.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:51   #39
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Err, make up your mind. First you say that it will be boredom breaking the domination of a current alliance. I am not disagreeing with that hypothesis, as it does not just sound plausible but has been shown by pa history over and over again.
However, I fail to understand how reduced alliance limits would speed that up, given that those reduced limits would be there to create more competition, thus making it more interesting and less boring for the dominating alliance again. Care to elaborate?

I mean, come on people, I am trying to bring up a healthy discussion about this here, it cannot be that easy to make you all run out of arguments again.
First of all, I would like you to look at your last post, you argue that we're running out of arguments for reducing the limits, while you turn to insults when people produce arguments. That is a rather negative way to argue, and can best be described as trolling.

Read the last line of my post one more time, and I think you will find the answers there.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:54   #40
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Err, make up your mind. First you say that it will be boredom breaking the domination of a current alliance. I am not disagreeing with that hypothesis, as it does not just sound plausible but has been shown by pa history over and over again.
However, I fail to understand how reduced alliance limits would speed that up, given that those reduced limits would be there to create more competition, thus making it more interesting and less boring for the dominating alliance again. Care to elaborate?

I mean, come on people, I am trying to bring up a healthy discussion about this here, it cannot be that easy to make you all run out of arguments again.
Surely he's referring to the fact that if the smaller allies are busy fighting each other for their own determined goals then the larger ally, being ignored, will suffer from a lack of goals faster.

Also nobody likes people who claim victory on message boards, for all you know people could have replied initially then gone to work and intended to follow it up when they get back, it's just a bit of E-go stroking, transparent at best.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 10:56   #41
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6690/image1ddi.png

The red line is the alliance limit of each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The blue line is the average members per alliance in each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The green line is the number of alliances playing each round, using the secondary Y-axis.
I'm sorry, but your graph makes no sense.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:01   #42
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

That's an incoherent statement. It's a graphical representation of actual data, what about it should make sense? (By "primary" I mean "left", by "secondary" "right".)
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:04   #43
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That's an incoherent statement. It's a graphical representation of actual data, what about it should make sense? (By "primary" I mean "left", by "secondary" "right".)
Ok, but at best the graph is inconclusive in terms of what alliance limits are doing to the game. Not only because it fails to mention the actual alliance limits of each round, but also because it shows movement both ways.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:05   #44
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

No, it isn't (the answer is "nothing") and no, it doesn't (see the red line).
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:10   #45
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
First of all, I would like you to look at your last post, you argue that we're running out of arguments for reducing the limits, while you turn to insults when people produce arguments. That is a rather negative way to argue, and can best be described as trolling.

Read the last line of my post one more time, and I think you will find the answers there.
What I pointed out in your post is not trolling, it's called aporia. Arguably, my last lines might come close to what's called trolling, fair enough. I shall refrain from such comments. But please enlighten me how your posting about the boredom - tag-limit-size correlation you described is not a paradoxon in itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowly View Post
Surely he's referring to the fact that if the smaller allies are busy fighting each other for their own determined goals then the larger ally, being ignored, will suffer from a lack of goals faster.
But "ignoring the larger" alliance surely is unrelated to the tag limit. Alliances could do that right now, so there's no need to change the tag limit to get that result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowly View Post
Also nobody likes people who claim victory on message boards, for all you know people could have replied initially then gone to work and intended to follow it up when they get back, it's just a bit of E-go stroking, transparent at best.
I'm sorry right there, it was not supposed to be ego stroking, just a bit of disappointment in the quality of arguments brought up here by certain people. I can perfectly understand if people post, go to work and then come back. That's cool. But posting 5 lines of unholdable arguments, and then reply to counter arguments without actually backing up your initial argument or counter-counter arguments is something that disappoints me. That's what I wanted to point out, maybe in a little too witty way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6690/image1ddi.png

The red line is the alliance limit of each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The blue line is the average members per alliance in each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The green line is the number of alliances playing each round, using the secondary Y-axis.
Thanks for that. So we can see that lowering alliance member limit has no influence on the number of alliances playing, and no influence on the average members per alliance. See the development of avg members per alliance and number of alliance for the rounds where the tag limit was constant. Granted, that was not really stastitical methods applied, but if wanted, I can do that, too.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:23   #46
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
What I pointed out in your post is not trolling, it's called aporia. Arguably, my last lines might come close to what's called trolling, fair enough. I shall refrain from such comments. But please enlighten me how your posting about the boredom - tag-limit-size correlation you described is not a paradoxon in itself?


Thanks for that. So we can see that lowering alliance member limit has no influence on the number of alliances playing, and no influence on the average members per alliance. See the development of avg members per alliance and number of alliance for the rounds where the tag limit was constant. Granted, that was not really stastitical methods applied, but if wanted, I can do that, too.
Ok, I'll elaborate. I said that alliance limits lowered might cause alliance 1 to turn into alliance 1a alliance 1b alliance 1c, etc, however, they will still be independent tags, and thus cause greater friction between the split parts of the alliances. Also causing some sort of internal competition.

Now, I am not claiming that alliance limits being lowered will be the 1 remedy for the game failing to attract a decent amount of players into the game. (For that I think Planetarion needs to remove itself from the way it is currently running.) However, it brings the playing field to a more competivie level, and makes the wars between the various tags more competitive and more fun for everyone.
If you want me to say that all alliances but xVx and Ascendancy are shit cause they can't fill up their tags, then sure, I can say that too. But the main fact is that the current situation only calls for abolishing alliances as a whole if we don't lower the alliance tags.

Am I saying this out of selfishness? Absolutely not. I could have played in both the "big" tags this round if I wanted to, however, I chose not to, cause I don't see any challenge at all for the players in the big tags at the moment.

Oh, and I'll also like to thank you for changing your tone to a more friendly debating way
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:29   #47
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
Am I saying this out of selfishness? Absolutely not. I could have played in both the "big" tags this round if I wanted to, however, I chose not to, cause I don't see any challenge at all for the players in the big tags at the moment.
If Asc is going to dominate this round and there be no competition? thus your argument for reducing the alliance limit..

Then surely there is a challange to be in xVx, CT, ND or even Rock to withstand the Asc pressure. Also, if enough people hadnt deemed the big tags to be ineffective this round (ineffective at fighting Asc) then we would still have a decent war.

I dont see how going into a smaller tag has made the round more challenging for you, unless your smaller tag intends to take Asc on? instead of avoid war?
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:34   #48
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

Alright, I just made another graph.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9154/image2kut.png

The red line is the total number of members in alliances in each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The blue line is the total number of active planets in each round, using the primary Y-axis.
The green line is the alliance limit of each round, using the secondary Y-axis.

The number of active players for r30 is missing, I did not have the information for that round.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:35   #49
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
If Asc is going to dominate this round and there be no competition? thus your argument for reducing the alliance limit..

Then surely there is a challange to be in xVx, CT, ND or even Rock to withstand the Asc pressure. Also, if enough people hadnt deemed the big tags to be ineffective this round (ineffective at fighting Asc) then we would still have a decent war.

I dont see how going into a smaller tag has made the round more challenging for you, unless your smaller tag intends to take Asc on? instead of avoid war?

The answer to that is simply: there is no current combination that can work to bring down Asc. For that the lack of organization between the other alliances playing are to weak. When xVx recruit players telling them that they should join xVx cause they are not going to attack Ascendancy, and with that manage to fill their tag, it should be a proof of the ultimate defeat of the other alliances.


I think that many that are in the "smaller" tags at the moment is trying to prove just that, and are also trying to establish a more competitive environment for themselves looking at Ascendancy as a nr 1, but fighting between themselves for their own amusement. Currently Ascendancy is a bit like barbarians in god mode in Civilization.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 11:49   #50
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Re: Drastically lower alliance tag limit

It's very short-sighted to attribute all the blame for lower player numbers on alliance sizes. I've played the last however many rounds in top3 alliances with full tags and realistic opportunities to win rounds but this round I've joined a "BG". I'm enjoying the freedom much more and actually enjoying a round of Planetarion again which is novel.

As for the argument of leaders, you don't specifically need a rigid structure. Sure there's 2 or 3 people who essentially housekeep but other than that there's no reason why you can't step up and set up your own raids, or organise defence for your planet. Hell chances are the "leaders" would much prefer it if you did as I don't know many that would tell you not to.

However I do think this round with the number of smaller tags created with an aim of having a more fun round is a real statement. With player's who have ran big alliances choosing to do this it really reflects the way they feel about the game. Sure Ascendancy have a full tag with goodness knows how many out of tag once again, and yeah i'll get shouted down on an internet forum for saying it, but I think this rounds over already. I cannot see where the challenge is going to come from. So well done, you've got the biggest tag, the best players and have won again, this time within a week. Whats the aim for next round? pt 72 have it settled?

Lowering the alliance limits will lead to far more fluid politics and would reduce domination from individual alliances. I understand the argument that you have your own communities in your alliances, but when that community is pissing all over the Planetarion community I wonder what's more important. StudentUniverse
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