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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 16:40   #1
Kargool
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No new alliances?

I am very suprised that I havent heard or seen anything about any new alliances this round. In my eyes this only shows that the alliance limits are to high, and that people find it difficult to create a new alliance. Does anyone have a view on this?
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 16:41   #2
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Re: No new alliances?

At least one old one is coming back though. And I've not heard of any alliances disbanding. No free members = no new alliances.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 16:41   #3
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Re: No new alliances?

would only having, say 5-10 ally members in an alliance really dissuade people from creating one?
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 16:42   #4
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
At least one old one is coming back though. And I've not heard of any alliances disbanding. No free members = no new alliances.
Free game = more players.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 17:42   #5
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Re: No new alliances?

its summer.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 18:00   #6
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksero
its summer.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 18:49   #7
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksero
its summer.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 19:00   #8
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksero
its summer.
All the free rounds we've had of late have been in the summer period. All the free rounds we've had have had more people than the round before and the round after. What part of more people play the free round dont you get?
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 19:03   #9
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Free game = more players.
Regardless, the number of seasoned players remains about equal every round, and it's these people that man alliances.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 19:05   #10
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Regardless, the number of seasoned players remains about equal every round, and it's these people that man alliances.
While I might accept your reasoning, the actual fact is that the free round usually brings a few new alliances to the table, that have atleast been the presedence, i.e WP.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 19:09   #11
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Re: No new alliances?

You name one alliance that formed during a free round. I can name five that didn't. The question of whether the round is free or paid is largely irrelevant to both forming and existing alliances.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 19:18   #12
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Re: No new alliances?

vision are coming back for this rd too
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 19:49   #13
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Re: No new alliances?

WP didnt come back during the free round.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 21:24   #14
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
WP didnt come back during the free round.
F-crew was made during a free round
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 21:33   #15
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Re: No new alliances?

dont get technical on me boyo.


Free rounds may bring in more 'casual' players, but as mz said above, the people who run allainces and whatnot generally stays at an even'ish level, maybe even less during summer which is why theirs not going to be any surge of new allainces.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 21:36   #16
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
dont get technical on me boyo.


Free rounds may bring in more 'casual' players, but as mz said above, the people who run allainces and whatnot generally stays at an even'ish level, maybe even less during summer which is why theirs not going to be any surge of new allainces.
i agree but lets face it, free rounds bring first time players to the fold, and most will be hesitant to start an alliance on their first round. I'd probably think you'll find 2-3 smallish allies forming in 2 rounds or so after the new influx of players who decide to stay try their hand at it

maybe...
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 22:01   #17
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
While I might accept your reasoning, the actual fact is that the free round usually brings a few new alliances to the table, that have atleast been the presedence, i.e WP.
It has more to do with people just can't be arsed anymore.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 22:36   #18
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You name one alliance that formed during a free round. I can name five that didn't. The question of whether the round is free or paid is largely irrelevant to both forming and existing alliances.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 23:30   #19
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
In my eyes this only shows that the alliance limits are to high, and that people find it difficult to create a new alliance.
Your hypothesis is that lower limits = more allies. Rounds with lower limits have not led to more allies: seen here

Even if there were more allies, we've not been generating DCs/BCs/HCs. They'd have to come from the current pool, decreasing the average quality of alliances.

Even in the days we had more alliances, we had only a few clear sides. FLTV/XeTa/FoS for example - compared to ND/Den/Asc and previously ND/CT/Urwins.

Finally, players lose out. Cutting limits forces allies to reject and kick players. A cut to 60 members would mean we'd have to generate at least 2 alliances to take in the members who were housed last round. Even if we did this why should these players have to leave their ally and play somewhere they don't want to? Where do new players go?

Besides which, we seem to be an alliance up this round.


In summary, you need to explain the concept of limits being 'too high', why and how this is a bad thing. And your evidence (no 'new' alliances) is circumstantial and shaky; your hypothesis isn't supported by any observed data we've seen so far.
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 01:18   #20
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Re: No new alliances?

It is a sommer round, people tend to enjoy the sun instead creating new allies.
Try it, you might like the sun
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 02:10   #21
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Re: No new alliances?

Kargool just join hidden agenda
you will only benefit from workin under our command team
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 12:30   #22
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I am very suprised that I havent heard or seen anything about any new alliances this round. In my eyes this only shows that the alliance limits are to high, and that people find it difficult to create a new alliance. Does anyone have a view on this?
There aren't enough capable leaders to lead the alliances that exist currently, much less to lead any new alliances. A realistic estimate of the number of well led alliances that could be put together with the current memberbase is somewhere between 0 and 3...
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 14:53   #23
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
There aren't enough capable leaders to lead the alliances that exist currently, much less to lead any new alliances. A realistic estimate of the number of well led alliances that could be put together with the current memberbase is somewhere between 0 and 3...
new alliances dont necessarily have to be well led do they?
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 15:23   #24
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Re: No new alliances?

If your goal is to make new players extrapolate the experiences they had with these incompetent HCs to HCs of other alliances, giving them a convincing reason to quit, then no, they don't.
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 03:34   #25
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Re: No new alliances?

Denial wouldn't have played r26 had we known it was going to be a 75 limit when we decided to play. 60 was a reachable target for us as a brand new alliance, we thought 75 would be too much. Luckily we were wrong (thanks mostly to Rock not playing). But I think the higher limit does persuade potentially new HC's not to bother trying. And comments on the competency of our HC will be ignored, so don't bother flaming me, im simply trying to partake in a decent discussion as a HC of a recently new alliance.
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 07:27   #26
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Re: No new alliances?

so where are all these new casual players? this is one of the worst players counts ive ever seen in pa... its proper dead now
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 09:30   #27
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Re: No new alliances?

if i remember correctly, sandmans said the total signups last round was 1500, considering we're at 1444 as of now id imagine it'll go a fair few hundred over that.
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 10:38   #28
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
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if i remember correctly, sandmans said the total signups last round was 1500, considering we're at 1444 as of now id imagine it'll go a fair few hundred over that.
not enough :/
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 12:26   #29
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Re: No new alliances?

By increasing the memberlimit, there is a marginal cost in terms of officer time eg 20 more members may require 1 extra DC. But this cost is very small compared to the initial outlay eg you need 10-15 officers/HC to provide infrastructure, regardless of whether you have 20 or 100 members.

With a memberlimit of 30, that means there are 15 slots for non-officer members. With a limit of 90, there are 75 slots. Tripling the memberlimit quintuples the number of slots for non-officer players.

Of course, the alternative is that alliances get by on less officers, decreasing alliance quality so that members of most alliances have a worse time. Either way, given that active officers are a finite resource, I'm still convinced that lower memberlimits are a bad thing for the game. If you have the officers to generate new alliances (only anecdotal evidence supports this), you end up with poorer quality alliances or with less slots for players who can't commit to DCing/BCing.
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 14:18   #30
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
It has more to do with people just can't be arsed anymore.
Aye.. I was contacted about Ministry participating this round. I replied somewhere along the lines of "uhh..if its free ill sign up an account and logon once a day to set prelaunch suicide on whoever u please."
Then I didnt bother to go on IRC since, and ofc did not sign up an acc, nor have I been contacted anymore about it on msn.. So I guess they couldnt be bothered either?

PA has been dying a long time, free rounds or not. Sooner or later the loyal 1,5k that keeps it running will also quit. Like I did a few rounds back..
(it could of still been big if P2P never was introduced in the first place though)
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 18:35   #31
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesla
(it could of still been big if P2P never was introduced in the first place though)
nah i don't think so, sure the P2P rubbish accelerated the downfall but i don't think it would have remained huge even if it'd been kept free
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 18:58   #32
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Re: No new alliances?

p2p kills text games, it happened in ogame so they then just added a couple of very very minor bonuses to paid accounts. unlike pa.. where most the good shit is there if u pay. I know a round has been won by a free account blah blah.. but its shit as **** still
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 20:31   #33
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lenore
nah i don't think so, sure the P2P rubbish accelerated the downfall but i don't think it would have remained huge even if it'd been kept free
Eventually, of course.
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 22:05   #34
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Re: No new alliances?

(maybe goes off topic - apologies)

I have felt for a while that possibly the recently "new" alliances have only been created because one or more previously established alliance chose not to play a round. Basically an alliance says "we aint playing next round" and ZAP a new alliance is announced. The new alliances I have seen recently don't seem to be getting created because of an influx or excess of people.

I have to say I am not suprised more players don't stick with the game, let alone lead others and teach new players. Few days back I told a few mates who i thought would be interested that a new round was starting so sign up coz its free. and tbh OMG what an absolute F**K ON it has been to bring new players to this game. Being a player who has been playing for more rounds than he cares to remember i never realised what it actually takes to go from zero knowledge about this game to anywhere near a working knowledge. I am talking about the stuff you just take for granted.

I mean you gotta explain

How to set your government, WHEN to set your government, how many roids to init, what ships to build, which race to be, how to set production, what the gal fund does, which alliances there are, what to research, what to construct, what quests are.

THEN Dear Lord you have to introduce IRC! *faints... Where to get it from, How to work IRC, how to reg a nick, how to join a channel, register a channel, configure IRC.

Yeah, you have got the manual, yeah netgamers help, yeah the ship stats, yeah the forums, and all these different start up guides, but its not cohesive. There is no single point of entry to PA that leads the players into the game. I had to point all this stuff out and collate all this info into a kinda manageable guide for them It felt like work Which is probably why more officers and leaders don't come forward. Look at the amount of work involved.

PA needs to be more acccesible, but i suppose without being boring. New features won't bring new players to the game it will just keep existing players, which is only half the story. People have mentioned integrating PA with Facebook and tbh its never going to happen. Take a look at the games in Facebook you can pick them up in 5 minutes and be reasonably up to speed with them. That's why they attract a bazzilion players a day.

I never thought PA was all that complicated and was quite easy to learn. But if you "find" this game, bit like adding an app in facebook, you think "ooo that looks cool think i'll try it." I give them 5 minutes :/ If like me now you meet a new player who says "So how do i play this then" You just inwardly groan and feel its gonna take far to long to explain!

i don't like being a detractor from PA but there you are...

Think i'll go lie down now
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 23:37   #35
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Re: No new alliances?

I completely agree, having had several newbies land in my gal in each of the last few rounds it has been a real trial to get them up to speed and understanding everything, and frankly I am getting quite sick of doing it round after round, I dont see how the learning alliances like ASS and F-crew can stick with it!

I can see why many experienced players treat newbies with disdain, effectively demanding they work out a large amount of the game before the experienced players will help (by demanding IRC activity)

on the alliance issue I agree that there does not seem to be too many more ppl than in the previous few rounds... and I certainly dont think there are more experienced players playing, and presumably there is a higher proportion of those who are playing are playing an easy round in which they dont what to be a HC or an officer for an alliance... in such circumstances I dont really see how new alliances could be formed.

moreover with no change in the limits and meny alliances having not been full last round there is not really a need for new alliances this round, should simply mean more full tags. Afterall if there were more new players for a free round this would not mean that the experienced player base would be any more helpful or willing to put the time in to teach them than it is.

ps I note there is a very large number of players in C200 (245) while I have never before paid attention to how many are in C200 so dont have a point of comparison I suspect it balances out with the slightly higher than usual number of accounts for the stage of the round we are at... has anyone paid closer attention to C200 at this stage of the round than I have who wishes to say whether I am correct or wrong?
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Unread 10 Jun 2008, 13:07   #36
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
All the free rounds we've had of late have been in the summer period. All the free rounds we've had have had more people than the round before and the round after. What part of more people play the free round dont you get?
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 12:49   #37
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
By increasing the memberlimit, there is a marginal cost in terms of officer time eg 20 more members may require 1 extra DC. But this cost is very small compared to the initial outlay eg you need 10-15 officers/HC to provide infrastructure, regardless of whether you have 20 or 100 members.
...
Of course, the alternative is that alliances get by on less officers, decreasing alliance quality so that members of most alliances have a worse time.
This idea that alliances can't function or are totally shit without sufficient officers (quality + quantity) is actually starting to get a little e-annoying. It's just not ****ing true. People who say it's true, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, are deluding themselves and, by posting such thoughts here, are continuing to participate in the mass delusion that is "elitism" in Planetarion.

Just because the military hierarchy model has been victorious in the past does not mean it is the sole effective model. Why do people keep insisting the world is flat and that only people who believe in a flat Planet(arion) can go to heaven? Alternative strategy may be heresy but at least it isn't blind ignorance.
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 13:08   #38
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Just because the military hierarchy model has been victorious in the past does not mean it is the sole effective model. Why do people keep insisting the world is flat and that only people who believe in a flat Planet(arion) can go to heaven? Alternative strategy may be heresy but at least it isn't blind ignorance.
Heirarchy has been extensively tested; when these alliances lack DC/BC coverage, they get hammered.

The 'Ascendancy' model hasn't been extensively tested; Ascendancy probably have the most skilled memberbase, a number of whom can BC/DC*. We don't know how an alliance would perform if it took the Ascendancy approach and didn't have a core of brilliant players. However, it would probably be the only viable model to generate alliances if we cut the member cap.


*it worked for DLR when they played out of tag too; but they're a group where every member should be finishing t100 and with no politics to worry about.
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 13:39   #39
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
However, it would probably be the only viable model to generate alliances if we cut the member cap.
I could not disagree more. This is yet another pointless, self-imposed limitation on potential teamworking ideas within PA. There are models beyond the traditional "military hierarchy" and recently successful "laissez-faire" approach of Ascendancy. I can think of several that would have an excellent chance of success but it doesn't happen because new alliances form continually from the composted waste of the old, led by the same tired faces with the same dull ideas. There is currently zero evolution, to the point of devolution in overall quality, of alliance strategy in PA. Do you contend this is a good thing? You certainly seem to be a large proponent of it...

There are ways to have fun and still be successful without either of these approaches. People need to stop worrying about the pointless limitations being imposed by PATeam and worry more about how to have fun within them, even if that means challenging them occasionally. This is supposed to be a game of war, strife and conflict but instead it's planets-by-numbers within alliances-by-numbers. People should really stop blaming PATeam, Jolt, God, whoever and start realising that they are just as responsible for stagnation in the meta game as any of the above.
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 14:11   #40
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I can think of several that would have an excellent chance of success but it doesn't happen because new alliances form continually from the composted waste of the old
I'd like to hear them, because I can't think of any off the top of my head that couldn't be at least partly classified as 'heirarchy' or 'laissez-faire'.
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 15:55   #41
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
By increasing the memberlimit, there is a marginal cost in terms of officer time eg 20 more members may require 1 extra DC. But this cost is very small compared to the initial outlay eg you need 10-15 officers/HC to provide infrastructure, regardless of whether you have 20 or 100 members.

With a memberlimit of 30, that means there are 15 slots for non-officer members. With a limit of 90, there are 75 slots. Tripling the memberlimit quintuples the number of slots for non-officer players.

Of course, the alternative is that alliances get by on less officers, decreasing alliance quality so that members of most alliances have a worse time. Either way, given that active officers are a finite resource, I'm still convinced that lower memberlimits are a bad thing for the game. If you have the officers to generate new alliances (only anecdotal evidence supports this), you end up with poorer quality alliances or with less slots for players who can't commit to DCing/BCing.
1. a memberbase of 30 would not need 15 officers/hcs..... you would 1person to fix some tools(arby/forums/attackbot) 1person to handle all the whine/meetings/members/whatever. 2BC is clearly enough for 30 ppl, 1 could possibly be enough aswell. lets say the BC's arent n00bs and DC aswell then you would need a few more dcs lets say 2 more. i count 6, yay thats leaves 24for members. there is however 1 problem with smaller memberbase though.
lets say you have 2members in gal A, 2 members in gal B. gal A and B get 5waves each. that leaves 26 ppl to cover 20 incs and we all know that ppl aint availible 24/7 regardless of what they say, so max 20ppl availible to send def. and if its big incs you wont have enough fleets:>
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 16:05   #42
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddah
i count 6, yay thats leaves 24for members.
You're assuming that the BCs will be able to BC 3-4 nights a week each plus time to organise retals/fleetcatches (and DC 6hrs/day each). You also assume the DCs will not overlap and will be able to do 6hrs/day each, every day.

Alternatively you have nights where attacks aren't prepared, or gaping holes in your defence times. Furthermore you need scanner coverage and a politics HC. Either you have 5 unbelievably active players to run the alliance, sacrificing their entire rl, or you compromise alliance quality, or you take a different approach (eg DLR went distwhore/XP whore).

At such low member limits, heirarchically-structured alliances begin to break down. A few will field full officer cadres and dominate the rankings, and we end up with a similar ranking structure to now. All you've succeeded in doing is kicking hundreds of players from their alliances.

EDIT: Actually, if I was an HC with 30 member limits, I'd have 2+ tags. I'd keep the main tag for my top players, have a scanning/support/covop tag and a recruitment tag or two. I'm not sure that's what we really want.
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 17:25   #43
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
This idea that alliances can't function or are totally shit without sufficient officers (quality + quantity) is actually starting to get a little e-annoying. It's just not ****ing true. People who say it's true, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, are deluding themselves <snip>
Would you care to share some of this "overwhelming evidence" with us?
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 17:44   #44
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Re: No new alliances?

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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 19:47   #45
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
r16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
The 'Ascendancy' model hasn't been extensively tested; Ascendancy probably have the most skilled memberbase, a number of whom can BC/DC*. We don't know how an alliance would perform if it took the Ascendancy approach and didn't have a core of brilliant players.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 09:48   #46
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Re: No new alliances?

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
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oh dear. read the thread much?
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 12:58   #47
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Re: No new alliances?

I didn't say it was a particularly good argument.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 12:59   #48
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'd like to hear them, because I can't think of any off the top of my head that couldn't be at least partly classified as 'heirarchy' or 'laissez-faire'.
As these styles are on opposite ends of the same spectrum then, of course, any new ideas would most likely fall in the middle somewhere. And you don't need me to give you ideas, you came up with one all on your own in your very next post!

That said I'd like to clarify something that I didn't make clear enough yesterday. I don't believe that established alliances should necessarily change how they work at all. Taking ND as a convenient example, you guys have a long history of employing the hierarchy style and to good effect on more than one occasion. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it as the saying goes.

My point was much more aimed at the alliances that form every couple of rounds only to dwindle away again. Insomnia is a nice example of this. They've never seemed able to master the hierarchy approach, most rounds they are lucky if they still have a tag at the end. So in this case it is broke, they should try something to fix it.

Then there is the third case of newly forming alliances tending to always follow the most obvious of structuring routes. Surely the founders of these alliances should be looking for a new way to gain an edge on the opposition rather than just following them blindly down the same path and hoping to pass them at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Would you care to share some of this "overwhelming evidence" with us?
I believe mz answered your question perfectly. If our way can win rounds then so can other ways, people just don't try them out. Or even try to imagine them up. This is strategically self limiting in my opinion, which can probably never be considered a good thing.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 07:17   #49
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Re: No new alliances?

remove any set limit.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 09:04   #50
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
By increasing the memberlimit, there is a marginal cost in terms of officer time eg 20 more members may require 1 extra DC. But this cost is very small compared to the initial outlay eg you need 10-15 officers/HC to provide infrastructure, regardless of whether you have 20 or 100 members.
Insanity. I used to help run a 250 member alliance with about 7-10 people. The marginal cost in terms of officers is not linear with members. I'd say you need about 1 command level staffer for the first 20 members and then it starts dropping geometrically (the next 40 need 1, the next 80 need 1) or something like that.

Quote:
With a memberlimit of 30, that means there are 15 slots for non-officer members. With a limit of 90, there are 75 slots. Tripling the memberlimit quintuples the number of slots for non-officer players.
Follows from the counter example above that this is wrong.

Quote:
Of course, the alternative is that alliances get by on less officers, decreasing alliance quality so that members of most alliances have a worse time. Either way, given that active officers are a finite resource, I'm still convinced that lower memberlimits are a bad thing for the game. If you have the officers to generate new alliances (only anecdotal evidence supports this), you end up with poorer quality alliances or with less slots for players who can't commit to DCing/BCing.
Incidentally, the alliance that managed to get by with 7-10 active command staff won the round it played. From that I think we can safely assume that alliance quality is not necessarily decreased by decreasing the number of officers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Heirarchy has been extensively tested; when these alliances lack DC/BC coverage, they get hammered.
Hierarchy's fail rate is still much higher than any alternative model....

Quote:
The 'Ascendancy' model hasn't been extensively tested; Ascendancy probably have the most skilled memberbase, a number of whom can BC/DC*. We don't know how an alliance would perform if it took the Ascendancy approach and didn't have a core of brilliant players. However, it would probably be the only viable model to generate alliances if we cut the member cap.

*it worked for DLR when they played out of tag too; but they're a group where every member should be finishing t100 and with no politics to worry about.
Sure, a number of whom can BC/DC, but few ever do. Mostly people sort their gal's defense. If you can't sort your galaxy's defense, you're screwed anyway. A lot of the people in Ascendancy who handle incoming would crumble under the usual tasks of a proper alliance DC (ie dealing with 100 incoming waves over the course of 8 hours in the middle of the night), let alone crunch incoming. I certainly couldn't deal with that shit anymore.

Ascendancy's core of players wasn't "brilliant" in round 26. It's easy to say that Denial's model was worse than ours, but let's look at what really happened. Both side crashed lots of fleets, so let's work on the assumption that the member base quality was somewhat equivalent, in the sense that it was not the largest deciding factor.

The key difference is that Ascendancy doesn't have a formally organized command structure, relying instead on an IRC bot and an ad hoc command structure. Denial's formalized command structure made some really stupid decisions that (imho) were a larger deciding factor in the outcome of the round than the general quality of the memberbase. For more info, see JBG's end of round summary.

How does Ascendancy's model protect against this sort of decision? Ascendancy relies on a trust network rather than command hierarchy. Say a new member comes around and has an idea for an attack, people don't really know him, but ok they'll give it a shot. If he bombs, they'll be more reluctant to join his attacks, if the attack is a success, he'll have his own personal army at his beck and call whenever he needs it. In this sense we're protected against retards wasting our fleet slots day in and day out.

In the Ascendancy world, Exit simply means you don't do what that person says. In the Denial world, Exit means leaving the alliance. The cost of Denial's command being wrong is (potentially) much higher than Ascendancy's. In Denial's world, Voice means complaining to the HC, who are the final point of responsibility. If action isn't taken, members become frustrated. In Ascendancy Voice means complaining to trusted members (preferably sponsors of whoever is being a dick). This encourages using Voice to settle conflicts, making sure both sides are heard.

This isn't to say Ascendancy's model is in itself superior, it relies fully on the people who use it. Achi, mz and myself (assuming they agree with me) just happen to believe that our model is more likely to stimulate people to play and do well.

The Ascendancy model has a better success rate then the hierarchy model (2 wins out of 11 alliance-rounds played (18%), as opposed to 9 wins out of about 66 alliance-rounds played (14%, assuming 6 competing hierarchical alliances per round)). But that isn't why it's better. It's better because our player retainment rate is much higher than the hierarchical model. More people stick around and more people come back to play again with Ascendancy. I don't have specific numbers, but I can make some rough numbers for the last 7-8 rounds if any alliance cares to compare. (I could very well be wrong about this!)

I also don't think that Ascendancy plays the Ascendancy model to the best way possible. We can improve on several areas if we truly want to achieve the highest possible rank every round. A lot of our members don't want to. They like playing PA, but they don't like playing PA at a highly competitive level. That's fine. At least it's not an unpaid job.

Last edited by Banned; 13 Jun 2008 at 09:09.
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