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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 23:57   #1
Sebos
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One man Bands

When i went to join my alliance i quickly scrolled the list of alliances. On doing this i noted once more several prehaps one man alliances or joke alliances.

Not that this is a bad thing the more alliances the better but i have to wonder if some of them are being created:

A) just to do the quest
B) because the players creating them believe that no alliance will take them
C) because people are actually trying to start a new alliance

What i propose is that in order to create an alliance you need at certain number of people to be submitted as commanders. Sort of like an alliance charter, this will hopefully stop the 1 man alliances and encourage more newer players who are prehaps affraid of applying to an alliance that is already there.

This is just an idea that might provoke more new members of the game to get involved with the already existing communities. Which imho is one of the biggest reasons why people will return to the game.

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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 00:04   #2
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Re: One man Bands

If you do this, then that would be the downfall of the Peniz-Allianz as that has a maximum membership of 1 person.

Also, alliances like Asc that dont have commanders might think it amusing.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 00:39   #3
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Re: One man Bands

I actually like this idea. Kinda like channel supporters on netgamers, would be a good system.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 01:07   #4
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Re: One man Bands

So, you want to fix the problem (people creating 1 man alliances to finish a quest) by making it more difficult to form an alliance?

Why not just fix the thing which causes this? Change the damn quest!
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 01:53   #5
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Re: One man Bands

This doesn't have all that much to do with the quest, there were loads of 1 member alliances before the quest system.
Granted the quest probably didn't help, but this has existed for ages.

Question is though, why should we limit this, if ppl want to be in an alliance of their own, why should be deny them, they aren't hurting anyone, nor are they doing anything wrong.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 02:05   #6
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Re: One man Bands

They are hurting themselves though, if they wish to leave their alliance to join a (more functional) alliance. Or was that addressed?

The Powers That Be frequently stop people from making self-harm decisions, like suicide and stuff.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 08:06   #7
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Re: One man Bands

Perhaps people like the challenge of not playing in a meaningful alliance?
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 08:17   #8
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Re: One man Bands

Utterly retarded. Why do you want to stop people from creating 1 man alliances? Are they wrecking your game? Are they in some way abusing a loop hole? Is there in fact any merit to this suggestion?
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 08:28   #9
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Re: One man Bands

When i was in Support, every now and again people would come by and ask that the 72 tick waiting period for them be removed so that they could join some alliance immediately.

When they were told that it wasnt going to be done as they shouldnt have joined an alliance on their own in the first place, this usually resulted in customer dissatisfaction.

I vaguely recall that at some point if they were leaving a 1 man alliance then they didnt have to wait for the 72 ticks, but i dont recall if that was actually the case, or whether it was a hardcoded change, or whether the admins would act on their behalf if that was their circumstance.

Irresepctive, if there is a quest that makes people join an alliance, then this kind of thing is going to become alot more common. Thus, for customer satisfaction, having some limit to it might actually be of benefit.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 09:05   #10
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Utterly retarded. Why do you want to stop people from creating 1 man alliances? Are they wrecking your game? Are they in some way abusing a loop hole? Is there in fact any merit to this suggestion?
Damn right to be honest. It looks like someone is just complaining because they've seen something thats been annoying them. They're doing nothing wrong. If it makes them feel big to have a 1 man alliance or if they're playing the game why not jkust let them continue?

If you start restricting everything to the big alliances people are gonna get annoyed. OI would'nt be surprised if these "hundreds" stopped playing, because lets face it, if this suggestion happened you'd be targetting them individually.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 09:08   #11
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Re: One man Bands

iirc the quest is to apply for an alliance. you can pick a random ally, put in an application, and then withdraw it. we shouldn't be putting in more safeguards for stupid people playing PA imo.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 09:16   #12
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Re: One man Bands

You know what I hate about quotes? It's that italics are overridden.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 09:20   #13
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Re: One man Bands

why do we have a thread like this ?
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 09:34   #14
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US
why do we have a thread like this ?
because people are allowed to make suggestions, but need to be prepared to be burnt down by everyone opposing it ...those playing Devils advocate so to speak
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 11:00   #15
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
because people are allowed to make suggestions, but need to be prepared to be burnt down by everyone opposing it ...those playing Devils advocate so to speak
Oh you clever bastard. By saying we're playing devil's advocate, you're implying we actually think it's a good suggestion, but are arguing against it for the sake of the process. This is not the case. I genuinely think this is a waste of coding time, and I've seen zero arguments to change my mind. Come up with some and we can have a discussion. Otherwise, /thread.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 11:08   #16
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Oh you clever bastard. By saying we're playing devil's advocate, you're implying we actually think it's a good suggestion, but are arguing against it for the sake of the process. .
No you misunderstood my meaning, i didn't say anyone agreed with anything. Though it can be misinterpreted as arguing for the sake of argument, it simply means that people who disagree will often point out the worst in an idea. If the person whose idea it was can get past these negativitys and perhaps make their idea better based on input then all of the criticism wasn't for nothing.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 11:09   #17
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Re: One man Bands

mz: you forgot to make "not" bold

On topic: Sebos forgot to add a fourth option:
* People enjoy playing in a one man alliance

I see no harm done. If the standard alliances wish to take someone in: do your recruitment job!
So, I understand the irritation, but I don't think it is an issue.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 11:59   #18
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
No you misunderstood my meaning, i didn't say anyone agreed with anything. Though it can be misinterpreted as arguing for the sake of argument, it simply means that people who disagree will often point out the worst in an idea. If the person whose idea it was can get past these negativitys and perhaps make their idea better based on input then all of the criticism wasn't for nothing.
The definition for playing the devil's advocate is "debating from a view which one does not actually hold, usually to determine its validity, or simply for the sake of argument" (paraphrased from Wiktionary). I didn't misinterpret your post, you took the term to mean something it didn't. That you didn't realise its real meaning is too bad, because it's a nice debating technique.*

However, I didn't really point out any bad sides to this suggestion per se. All I said is that there are no positive effects (something that appears to be supported by the lack of argument against that particular allegation), so putting effort into coding this is a waste of time. That's not looking at the worst of the idea, it's simply listing pros and cons.



* I just noticed you're actually agreeing with me, so it'd be silly to use this technique against me, but the principle stands
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 12:07   #19
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I didn't misinterpret your post, you took the term to mean something it didn't
well when you define the context and the site you got your definition then it can mean anything you want it to.

Wikipedia : In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position for the sake of argument

Idioms : One who argues against a cause or position either for the sake of argument or to help determine its validity.

Yourdictionary.com : a person who upholds what is regarded as the wrong side or an indefensible cause, perversely or for argument's sake

yes there are many definitions and many uses for a devils advocate. yes you found one and it wasn't what i meant.

Congratulations, you can argue for the sake of arguing, or maybe just feel the need to not have misinterpreted what i said. Either way, i wasn't wrong. Your simply clinging to the first google hit you got and arguing it to death. Feel free to continue and prove my point.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 13:57   #20
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Re: One man Bands

anyone still discussing about the original suggestion ?
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 14:06   #21
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US
anyone still discussing about the original suggestion ?
lol what was it again? :P
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 14:59   #22
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
well when you define the context and the site you got your definition then it can mean anything you want it to.

Wikipedia : In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position for the sake of argument

Idioms : One who argues against a cause or position either for the sake of argument or to help determine its validity.

Yourdictionary.com : a person who upholds what is regarded as the wrong side or an indefensible cause, perversely or for argument's sake

yes there are many definitions and many uses for a devils advocate. yes you found one and it wasn't what i meant.

Congratulations, you can argue for the sake of arguing, or maybe just feel the need to not have misinterpreted what i said. Either way, i wasn't wrong. Your simply clinging to the first google hit you got and arguing it to death. Feel free to continue and prove my point.
All those definitions specifically say that the person playing devil's advocate knows the position he's defending is the wrong one, or at least that he doesn't take it because he knows it's right. If that's what you're accusing us of, you're wrong. If it's not, then your use of the term "devil's advocate" is wrong. It's really that simple.

As for your last point, if you think I don't know what "devil's advocate" means, you're (again) wrong; I googled it to educate you as to its meaning (you might notice I didn't bother to do so for my first post on the subject, because at that time it was not clear to me you did in fact not know what it meant). You appear unwilling or unable to grasp this, which tells us more about you than it does about me.


P.S. Nice selective quoting, by the way.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 15:09   #23
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dryph
A) just to do the quest
B) because the players creating them believe that no alliance will take them
C) because people are actually trying to start a new alliance
presumably if it is either of the first two then its partially due to a lack of information. would it not be best to have some way of showing what alliances are recruiting and what their requirements are on the alliance page. this would mean that anyone creating an alliance because they believe no alliance will take them will have their attention directed towards those alliances that may well take them.

similarly if it is just to do the quest then showing what alliances would take almost anyone would help solve this. Or else there could be an alliance thats there made by the pa crew just for ppl to apply to for the porpose of fulfilling the quest.

and if they are acctually starting a new alliance they will almost certainly have your 'supporters' already anyway, if they dont then its not a very serious attempt to create an alliance and they should obviously go and find someone else to help them 1st... and refer to earlier (perhaps it should also show what small or other 1 man alliances are willing to merge to create a larger alliance and are looking for help in creating their alliance).

However I see nothing in principle wrong with single player alliances, why should ppl not be allowed to choose? however if its simply a lack of information thats causing it then its a bad thing.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 15:22   #24
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
All those definitions specifically say that the person playing devil's advocate knows the position he's defending is the wrong one, or at least that he doesn't take it because he knows it's right.
God you truly are an idiot. It looks as if you've forgoten the point i was making to begin with. It doesn't say the person knows its the wrong one, just that they argue against others.

I'm not accusing you of anything. if you read up you'll find out we agree on the same thing. Its just our explanation of how we agree differs. I'll explain in Laymans terms so you don't get lost in the meaning:

*He made a suggestion,
*People gave arguments for and against
*Someone asked why this thread was here
*I said :
Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW
Entropy]because people are allowed to make suggestions, but need to be prepared to be burnt down by everyone opposing it ...those playing Devils advocate so to speak
to be honest i'll stop there, because arguing against something IS determining its validity, even if only a small amount. Therefore anybody doing so is assuming the role of Devils Advocate.

need me to go over that again?
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 15:56   #25
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Re: One man Bands

Dude, you're wrong. You misused the phrase "devils advocate" because you don't seem to fully grasp what it's use implies. It really is that simple.

Dryph, why do you want to ban 1 man alliances? You don't say what exactly it will accomplish in your OP. Please tell us what unspeakable horror this will save us from?

Last edited by Achilles; 4 Jun 2008 at 16:02.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 18:59   #26
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Re: One man Bands

And what happens to the new people who tries to apply one of these 1 man alliances?

Add a section to portal to advertise alliances. That way they atleast know which of the tags are proper alliances... as they give no info about themselfs.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 20:23   #27
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave
Add a section to portal to advertise alliances. That way they atleast know which of the tags are proper alliances... as they give no info about themselfs.
you mean like the alliance recruitment section?
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Unread 9 Jun 2008, 02:10   #28
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Utterly retarded. Why do you want to stop people from creating 1 man alliances? Are they wrecking your game? Are they in some way abusing a loop hole? Is there in fact any merit to this suggestion?
*applaud*
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Unread 10 Jun 2008, 09:29   #29
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Re: One man Bands

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
you mean like the alliance recruitment section?
If you wana link it to portal as a own link... sure.
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