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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 02:17   #1
Makhil
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ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

With 10% of players chosing ETD (counting those who did it just to benefit from the 5% trade tax prior to tick start) comes the question: what can be done ?
I now think that whatever ability combination you give them (emp+cloak, emp + steal, steal + cloak) and unless you overpower them, people will choose the real thing. If they like EMP they'll go cath, if they enjoy cloak, they'll go xan...

- Could ETD become a salvage race with cargo ships or a subvert race as discussed some time ago (or any new concept) ?

- Should ETD just be terminated ?

- Should we just keep them for the sake of having a 5th race ?
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 02:33   #2
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I always liked the idea of subversion (i might have even come up with it back in the day, calling is Psi-EMP: no credit from PA Team ofc ), however the way it was implmeneted back in the day was terrible. The whole indestructibility of stunned ships was terrible, red defence and green attackers (lol) was a major problem and would require additional thought.

However, if some of ETDs ships were changed from normal EMP to Subversion, i think that would make them distinct enough to enjoy some more life, as it would be somewhere between a Zik and a Cath, but with cloaked ships for extra comedy value thrown in. How could someone say no? .
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 04:53   #3
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I've never been a great fan of Etd, nor of the idea of a fifth race in general. PA won't be a worse game without one.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 05:58   #4
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Tbh, i see more choice and more variablility as a good thing. Questions of balance are problematic, sure, but they arent insurmountable. Often, getting balance "almost" right is quite sufficient, which seems to be the case that we've been having recently. Sure, they arent perfectly balanced, but they arent far off it.

More races, suited to more varied playing styles is a good thing, imo. The only other format that i would tentatively support is the concept of no races, and using research (and construction) to select ships from a pool of common ships. However, this has its own balance problems due to the high probability of the "best of both worlds" outcome, where there is only one clear set of choices that is superior to all others. That's bad, as its only 1 good choice with many bad choices, and only the informed and well connected will know what that choice is, whereas now you can still get lucky with a 20% chance of getting it right with current races.

I suppose the point is, keep ETD but make it different to what it is now. I think it will have more "brand loyalty" if the race can be better reflect a certain playing style better than the other races. How to do that, however, i'm not sure about.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 08:30   #5
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I like the idea of turning etd into a subversion race.

As it is, I just dont see the point with them.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 11:24   #6
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

They're like the old science part of the tech tree from r5 or whatever it was at the minute. That said I'm pro bringing back subversion as well, even if it did prove difficult enough to balance I reckon the variety and change of pace would be worthwhile enough to justify it.

Edit: I haven't signed up yet, is makhil referring to the total number of people going etd so far this round with the 10% figure?
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 11:32   #7
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Nor have i, but i think so.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 11:38   #8
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

if the balance of the stats takes into account all the races then 1 less race will mean a more balanced stats? correct me if i'm wrong.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 11:39   #9
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Terran 181(21%)
Cathaar 173(20%)
Xandathrii 207(24%)
Zikonian 188(22%)
Eitraides 87(10%)

as it has been said already, subversion might create enough differentiation for a fifth race, otherwise etd is just useless and there for the sake of it
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 11:47   #10
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
as it has been said already, subversion might create enough differentiation for a fifth race, otherwise etd is just useless and there for the sake of it
why not wait till the signup week is complete before showing race percentages? after all a lot of people could sign up in 3 days
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 12:01   #11
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
why not wait till the signup week is complete before showing race percentages? after all a lot of people could sign up in 3 days
I'd doubt the difference would be dramatic.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 12:28   #12
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

and many go etd at start. old habit
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 12:30   #13
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Plus most people won't be sticking with that race as it can be changed. So 10% of terrans might actually be going another race when then round starts and so on and so forth.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:21   #14
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
and many go etd at start. old habit
I don't get this. Why would you stay etd? Surely you just switch to etd just to trade resources initially? I'd understand if you went cath for a research boost or ter for cons but what.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:28   #15
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Etd needs a unique style instead of being a poor combination of two races.

All the other classes have a style which people can easily related to. Terran with high armour, Cathaar with low init EMP, Xan with low init but weak armour, Zik for stealing. How would you even describe Etd?

It would be nice to come up with something new, or reuse an old idea to make them unique enough compared to the other races. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas from the many years of the suggestions forum to give them a new twist. I think half of the problem is they've gained a bit of a crap reputation, dump the name and start with something new and players might have a different opinion of it.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:40   #16
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

It's the science path. Science predated races.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:45   #17
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
Etd needs a unique style instead of being a poor combination of two races.

All the other classes have a style which people can easily related to. Terran with high armour, Cathaar with low init EMP, Xan with low init but weak armour, Zik for stealing.

[...] I think half of the problem is they've gained a bit of a crap reputation, dump the name and start with something new and players might have a different opinion of it.
I agree with GReaper: you could say "the mix = a unique feature", but I would rather see a real unique feature for ETD, whatever it may be.

For the last part of his post: changing the name would do wonders (if in combo with a real unique feature), it is like when Asc turned into STOOM...
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:47   #18
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's the science path. Science predated races.
Saying "the science path" doesn't exactly tell a new player what they're playing! I'm sure I speak for many other people that saying a race is more scientific doesn't really describe what a race is.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:55   #19
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I don't get this. Why would you stay etd? Surely you just switch to etd just to trade resources initially? I'd understand if you went cath for a research boost or ter for cons but what.
They gave u a cons bonus ( compared to zik ), and u could trade for 5% for the first 5 ticks.
But yes, normally I d be etd-trade, then change to cath for bonus -> etd to trade once a tick, then swap back to zik at pt 5.
Understandable that they removed that "feature"
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 13:59   #20
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

You have to much time on your hands
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 14:05   #21
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

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You have to much time on your hands
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 14:36   #22
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
They gave u a cons bonus ( compared to zik ), and u could trade for 5% for the first 5 ticks.
But yes, normally I d be etd-trade, then change to cath for bonus -> etd to trade once a tick, then swap back to zik at pt 5.
Understandable that they removed that "feature"
I was the one who reminded/told cin about that "feature" last round and got him to remove it. I remember when I saw your post on strategy and kept quiet so you'd get dicked. I was laughing for a good fifteen minutes straight when you ended having to go etd.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 14:44   #23
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

2008-03-28 11:22:57 <@JBG> http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...3&postcount=11
2008-03-28 11:23:01 <@JBG> NOBODY ****ING TELL HIM
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 15:05   #24
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I m glad it got someone in a good mood.

Your evil though

but I m a fan of learning the hard way, so I spose I should thank you. but I wont.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 15:27   #25
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
why not wait till the signup week is complete before showing race percentages? after all a lot of people could sign up in 3 days
cause people asked if it was the current situation referred to with the 10% figure :/

and it still won't drastically change

and its the third round in a row (?) with such figures
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 15:38   #26
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I've never been a fan of ETD.
Don't see any need for a 5th race that's just a combination of other races tbh.
Before ETD statsmakers allready had a hard time balancing 4 races and i can imagine a 5th race has only made it worse.
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 18:16   #27
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I am one of the 87 Etd as I haven't decided yet which race to go for and which roids to init. I probably won't remain Etd till tickstart. I would have expected more Ziks and Etd and fewer Xans and Caths. Etd doesn't look that bad to me.
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Unread 8 Jun 2008, 20:11   #28
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

I like Etd and play them every round tho making them more diverse would kick ass
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 21:48   #29
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

i think we should remove all races and do somthing totally different
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 02:26   #30
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Has anyone found a way to make subversion work with little coding work?

Previously it had low init, low dmg. Low dmg combined with the way subversion works means that it is piss poor at defence; kind of like EMP, only much worse. Also, there's the whole attack-with-subversion-defend-with-killships thing which was blatantly overpowered (or def with sub, attack with kill). In its previous form, subversion was broken. Does anyone have an idea that might make it work?

EDIT: Assassin: I've been playing with a branching tech tree set of stats. If you'd be interested in taking a look, let me know.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 09:21   #31
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Has anyone found a way to make subversion work with little coding work?

Previously it had low init, low dmg. Low dmg combined with the way subversion works means that it is piss poor at defence; kind of like EMP, only much worse. Also, there's the whole attack-with-subversion-defend-with-killships thing which was blatantly overpowered (or def with sub, attack with kill). In its previous form, subversion was broken. Does anyone have an idea that might make it work?
Well, tbh i think the major failing was that subverted ships were indestructible. Remove that and sure, you might cause mayhem in either attack or defence, but you'll still loose the ships at the end of the day. That makes it less profitable to attack with green fleets.

Imo, it would be easier to sort it in an environment with different armours for Conventional, EMP and Steal - Subversion would be an EMP weapon that fires on Steal armour, for example. You can lower the firepower, but have the initiative more mixed - they all fire after normal EMP, with different races being able to fire before it (especially Xan - high firepower ships easily subverted is a bad idea).

Also, have the race (eg, etd) backed up with moderate kill ships that are primarily suited to defence, and it should be OK.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 12:50   #32
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, tbh i think the major failing was that subverted ships were indestructible. Remove that and sure, you might cause mayhem in either attack or defence, but you'll still loose the ships at the end of the day. That makes it less profitable to attack with green fleets.
Are you saying that subverted ships should be killable, or that they should die after subversion? Even if you make them killable, it's still wide open to abuse; it was very rare I would have killed the defending xand stuff I was subverting anyway.

Quote:
Also, have the race (eg, etd) backed up with moderate kill ships that are primarily suited to defence, and it should be OK.
Could work, but I still think we'd struggle unless we went heavy on the killships. Look at how hard to balance cath are for example.

Also, how would steal be affected by subversion? Do you keep stolen ships, or do both stealing and stolen ship die?


On the whole I have to say I don't like what I know about subversion.

If you attacked with BS and they defended with anything that wasn't a BS itself, subversion's just poor efficiency EMP because subverted stuff didn't shoot anything. Multiple targetting may improve that though.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 12:59   #33
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Re: ETD: just a bad cold or terminal cancer ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Are you saying that subverted ships should be killable, or that they should die after subversion? Even if you make them killable, it's still wide open to abuse; it was very rare I would have killed the defending xand stuff I was subverting anyway.
This may be the case, but less pronounced with multiple targeting. It really depends entirely on the stats of the day, and obviously statbuilders would have to keep this in mind.

Quote:
Also, how would steal be affected by subversion? Do you keep stolen ships, or do both stealing and stolen ship die?
Well, that depends on what you are talking about exactly. If you subvert a steal ship, and that steal ship fires on its own side and "steals", then you should really keep those stolen ships.

However, i think i like your idea of a "killing EMP" that you said pretty much in the first line: all subverted ships at the end of battle, but you keep the original (subverting) ships. That could potentially work, and it would be balanced through having poor firepower relative to normal EMP. Plus, ships with high Steal resistance could be used to counter said fleet in universal defence, for example.

Quote:
On the whole I have to say I don't like what I know about subversion.
Its complex, which could be fun. I think it would probably be worth working it out.
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