Races this round

[Gate]

How does everyone feel they are going to perform?

I'm not paying all that much attention, but a quick perusal of sandmans makes for some interesting reading. For example, zikonians have already outperformed cathaar (a traditionally excellent starter) in value. As far as I remember with regards to last round, this is very early in the round for this to occur.

Xands are lagging behind a bit, with few t100 planets, lower averages etc, but I genuinely feel this is going to improve. FI are excellent, and as caths fall behind one by one, there will be a lot of fat targets for the xands to abuse. They are also excellent defensively; A well built xand fleet should theoretically only be roidable by cath CO (easily sorted, and unlikely to be many caths who can keep up) and DE (easily sorted if you have a few big ingal ziks or terrans who are willing to defend you).

I still stick to my original judgement; I reckon xands and ziks will be the big winners this round, and caths the losers.

[jt25man]

What are your thoughts on Terran?

[Kargool]

I dont really agree to the FI is excellent statement.

Xan FI can hit Terrans and Caths with their CO fleet out, but that's about it. Ziks have very good defence with their brigands. (they fire at the same time as Xan fi) Terrans can retal roid Xans because of the pegs hitting before the pulsar and Xan's anti BS anti FR is weak. And Anti CR is also not very good.


Terrans have a very good fleet in their DE fleet, their BS fleet is also quite okay. But it's always the consideration they need to do about trying to lose as little ship as possible when they attack. It prolly makes terrans abit more defensive than they should be.

Zik's are quite good but prolly needs to be abit lucky with their steals.

Cat's are actually quite well this round since there is a low quanta of anti CO.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by jt25man

What are your thoughts on Terran?

Whilst playable, I decided to go zik due vunerabilities they had

[K-W]

Originally Posted by Kargool

I dont really agree to the FI is excellent statement.

Xan FI can hit Terrans and Beets with their CO fleet out, but that's about it. Ziks have very good defence with their brigands. (they fire at the same time as Xan fi) Terrans can retal roid Xans because of the pegs hitting before the pulsar and Xan's anti BS anti FR is weak. And Anti CR is also not very good.

Good point about fighters, but as for defence Im not sure what you are talking about. Vsh and Wraiths, while overwhelmable, are very good BS and FR defense ships. And xan are only vulnerable to cruisers until they can build spectres

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Kargool

I dont really agree to the FI is excellent statement.

Xan FI can hit Terrans and Caths with their CO fleet out, but that's about it. Ziks have very good defence with their brigands. (they fire at the same time as Xan fi) Terrans can retal roid Xans because of the pegs hitting before the pulsar and Xan's anti BS anti FR is weak. And Anti CR is also not very good.

I still feel xand FI are pretty awesome.

As the round goes on, and cath are forced to split their income into more than just their CO fleet, the % invested by a cath in their CO will decrease. This leads to less beetles (especially if they've fallen into the trap of buying vipers), meaning that, like in every single round I can ever remember, xand attack fleets will soon overpower cath EMP fleets and caths will be good xand targets, whether their CO are at home or not. As caths are brought down one by one, they get ever more vulnerable to the larger xands.

This should provide a significant income boost for xands, provided that terrans do not pick them off with DE (or even ziks with BS) first. This is why I feel cath will decline: those who build a large CO fleet and can't afford much anti BS will be attractive prospects to ziks, whilst

This was the exact same argument used last round. In fact, I was insulted in pms and negrepped on here because I said xand FI would be able to roid caths. As usual I ignored them and ended up being right

Additionally, a lot of ziks like stealships (thief) and will be. Checking through some scans, I've found a large number of ziks with insignificant numbers of brigands. In fact, out of about 15 zik targets, only 1 had over 100 brigs.

Defence wise, big xands should be almost bulletproof to CR and even to BS (though zik BS is a very scary prospect)

Cat's are actually quite well this round since there is a low quanta of anti CO.

I feel caths are going to seriously struggle. Spider and Corsair are pure defships, it's insane to try and stun through terran attack ship armour (the peg), and even then, pegs/syrens/cutters are available ingal. Additionally, their primary targets (other caths and xands) are very easily defended. Mass xand FI flak corsairs wonderfully, and spiders open up cath attackers for slaughter via phantom or corsair.

Meanwhile, CR will struggle later in the round. Unlike last round where the tarantula was EMPing xandathrii armour (of about 40:cost?), it is now trying to EMP terran armour (of 60:cost), and this terran vessel should be far more regularly available for defence than the ghost was last round (with it being an attack ship and all). Additionally, the roach is now targetting a flakked primary attack ship (the rogue), instead of the buccaneer which had no flak and was not built in as large numbers as your typical attack ship. Additionally, spectres can be a serious problem and though you can play the chicken route, if you send tarantulas, it's suddenly a much larger risk as spectres kill them with 100% efficiency.

Finally, my opinion in terrans is a bit iffy... BS is always difficult to stop, but with caths immune (roach), and xands able to get that way, with the wraith a -2 eta pure defship with decent init and power, it could struggle more than it has done previously. DE look lovely, but I just wonder if ingal pillagers combined with the sheer number of ziks and terrans (therefore harpies/pills/wyvs) will begin to negate them somewhat. Terrans look great on paper, but feel they'll suffer as the round goes on. DE can't hit ziks or terrans, and there aren't many caths/xands. I also feel that caths will diminish as the round goes on, so the easiest roids will no longer be available.

I think they're better than cath, but perhaps not as good as zik or xand.

[lokken]

I think the Cathaar plan is to build a very big value planet as quickly possible and secure a top 100 position in spite of this. The majority of cathaars who are doing well seem to be making slow steady progress and they will typically be very active alliance players who know what they are doing.

Terrans have a very powerful attack in the BS (which is extremely cumbersome) and the DE which absolutely mashes Xan but their defence ships are pretty non-existent considering FR is defunct this round. I think they are pretty much nutters only, the way to play being to make spectacular attacks and simply expecting to be roided.

Zikonians are a good option in the sense that they can have a very diverse strategy and in a round where defence appears to be scarce, I think they are having a very good time of it. Even if you lose roids, you can probably gain ships, but this is nothing new and simply stating the obvious.

Xans are powerful attackwise with their FI, but I feel they've got enough holes to make them very vulnerable.

Although I think it's pretty much a given that the planetarion planet and galaxy title has been decided, unless things change radically.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Gate

RANT

I pretty much agree. Except that I do not feel pillagers will cause trouble to xans (battleships are in two pod fleets, they're so common wraiths will be around 'en masse, and it'll be seriously hard to bounce one fleet even less two fleets of wraiths without taking huge losses). Xandathrii and zikonian are the late bloomers of the round, expect cathaar to fall first and terran to either follow or struggle for their seats; terran battleships can handle zikonians pretty decently anyways. That's, if wraiths dont appear around too widely. Maybe I'll write more tomorrow.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

I pretty much agree. Except that I do not feel pillagers will cause trouble to xans (battleships are in two pod fleets, they're so common wraiths will be around 'en masse, and it'll be seriously hard to bounce one fleet even less two fleets of wraiths without taking huge losses).

I worry that the number of xands compared to ziks may make this a little bit of an issue. Especially considering that not only are there a lot more ziks, they have, on average, a lot more roids and value.

With enough of a value advantage, any size xand will be hittable with BS, but I do agree that with sufficient wraith defence, this can be sorted out with little problem... just that xands will also need to invest quite a lot in phantoms, pulsars and/or spectres if they want to ensure good coverage across teh classes. A fair few xands will probably let wraith production take a back seat.

[Tietäjä]

I'm definately not very fuzzed about the predicted thread of battleships. Being the prime pod fleet of the round (with two strong BS fleets, even terrans will eventually want to avoid harpies, pillagers, and wyverns; or at least some terrans will; by moving on to battleships, and zikonians will definately be building them en-masse because of the ridiculously strong bounceability), it will probably create an arrowhawk effect (r13, remember; xandathrii was stronger yes, but so was zikonian; yet strongly arr'hawking xandathrii were barely in range of myself!). Widely said, anti-battleship will, towards the end of the round, be plenty. And wraith is most definately the great anti-battlehsip of the round.

Originally Posted by lokken

I think the Cathaar plan is to build a very big value planet as quickly possible and secure a top 100 position in spite of this. The majority of cathaars who are doing well seem to be making slow steady progress and they will typically be very active alliance players who know what they are doing.

Though, we're all anticipating a very fluid round where defending is a bit tougher and roids will be swapped more anxiously (partially because of the political situation; last round, and the round which BlackG won, was it 15, were the kinds of rounds were 1up was left by politics pretty much sailing - I definately doubt it'll happen this round), and the race that will be hurt most by this is definately cathaar. Without descisive zero-lossers against prime fleets (zikonian battleships here), and generally lacking those zero-lossers (scorpion, mantis) that are vital to keep cathaar afloat, I don't really think we'll witness much cathaar glory once guns start blazing. The cruiser fleet is at long run mediocre at best: there's so few frigates around comparatively, that I don't believe gryphons will cause huge trouble, but I suppose once xandathrii get spectres hoarded, pirates are common, well. Corvettes are the definate early round punch, and will fall off like flies when terrans got pegasus, xandathrii mass on fighters, zikonians build a few cutters, and well, you end up being able to attack other caths. The external balance isn't too good there, eh?

Terrans have a very powerful attack in the BS (which is extremely cumbersome) and the DE which absolutely mashes Xan but their defence ships are pretty non-existent considering FR is defunct this round. I think they are pretty much nutters only, the way to play being to make spectacular attacks and simply expecting to be roided.

Admitted, destroyers punch holes to cathaars (hi again) and xandathrii alike. The latter has some form of semi-defence around, but really, vipers are far worse a poverty trap than pulsars. And you don't want to get too heated up by the initiative 8 recluse. There's already lots of harpies around, they're being accompanied by pillagers, followed by wyverns. This all should provide an incentive for plenty of terrans to move on to battleships to be able to grind zikonians (as there should be "plenty high value zikonians") and terrans folly enough not to build enough dragons. Roaches won't present too much trouble on the long span, especially on the high end of the tables; cathaar will fall.

Yes, terrans are about mad roidswapping (like myself last round). How far will that carry on the current XP formulae, then, will be seen. Possibly some terrans can remain very high in galaxy/alliance fortresses.

Zikonians are a good option in the sense that they can have a very diverse strategy and in a round where defence appears to be scarce, I think they are having a very good time of it. Even if you lose roids, you can probably gain ships, but this is nothing new and simply stating the obvious.

The huge ability to bounce with the battleship fleet combined with a solid antifighter and a zero-loss anti-corvette... Well, pretty good off. The only real holes appear to be other zikonian battleships, terran battleships, roach heavy (won't be around) cathaars, vsharrak loaded xandathriis, xandathrii frigates... Right, definately "not bulletproof", but the attack ability of the battleship fleet is just awesome. The only solid ways of stopping the bulks are dragons (which you will want to steal fake trapping some defence commander's cruisers), and wraiths. Buccaneers will just end up wrestling, and roaches and rogues get consumed. Possibly overpowered? R13, when I said buccaneer far outweighted thief, they only argued zikonian overpower was because of thief's ability to steal ships of it's own kind. Rant off.

Xans are powerful attackwise with their FI, but I feel they've got enough holes to make them very vulnerable.

Okay. Xandathrii have tough time dealing with destroyers. The other holes are..?
Terran have tough time dealing with fighters and cruisers.
Cathaar have tough time dealing with zikonian battleships, terran destroyers, cathaar cruisers, xandathrii fighters (already I see xandathriis with just a mass of fighters able to punch through EMPs).
Zikonian have tough time dealing with terran battleships, xandathrii frigates, and massed up xandathrii fighters.

To sum up, yeah, xandathrii got enough holes defensively. Yet they have the least holes when you relate it to the peers. The fighter fleet is fast moving, there's no zero-loss, and the safe real cure to it appears to be the arrowhead. While zikonians are busy fiddling with their buccaneers, pirates, and pillagers, they definately don't have the focus to build enough brigands to take the throne off from vsharrak. Besides, it's piss fast. If fighters ended up tossing off the some ranking people last round, this round will definately see some fighters.

Although I think it's pretty much a given that the planetarion planet and galaxy title has been decided, unless things change radically.

I wouldn't decide it yet, but if the alliance a allows a certain planet of the alliance b to have a planet of theirs take off with easy round victory because it has a certain person from the alliance a in his gal, then yeah, it's decided all the way through. I hope-doubt this won't happen, and possibly there are other factions (Omen, SubH, the highly - beyond Omen and SubH - rated Escape) might have their words to say. When the anticipated war starts, there probably won't be too much excess resources to spare into shielding one planet.

Perhaps we'll see another thriller with a runner up galaxy (or even planet!) trying to arrange attacks on their fellow alliance members again this round? The setup is definately possible, and there's some same names to be involved in it too!

[lokken]

I'm predicting a pretty crap round where people sit there accumulate value and go on raids, wait for the biggest block to form, then take out the opposition in hmm, maybe a week. Fluidity seems a myth of big alliances so people don't think they need to kick off, when actually they very much do. If big alliances are trying not to go to war yet it's because they don't want to and thus you should go to war with them (but this is offtopic)

I think Zikonian and Cathaar are probably the best races this round, simply because I think they are the best races for holding roids and thus accumulating enough value to see them safely top 100 barring a fleetcatch later on.

As for Frigates, they look rubbish and i don't think people are building them, or look even vaguely interested in doing so.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by lokken

Lokkens post.

Pretty much on the nose there.

When the beta testing was on I did say these stats arent my favourite as there are for "ally wars" and are quite individually boring to play this round in my opinion.

[lokken]

I think you can have fun with terran, you just need to 3 fleet constantly and be able to put up with daily incoming (although as a terran, this is starting to get boring). I actually think the stats are OK, it's just that play as it stands is just letting Zikonian and Cathaar pick up roids and ships and hammer their respective advantages. This is not in the interest of any xandathrii or terran player.

The dullness lies in the fact that politics as they stand result in people pussyfooting around each other.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by lokken

The dullness lies in the fact that politics as they stand result in people pussyfooting around each other.

I'm not sure how up to date you are, but for what I've heard there are things happening. And very early wars aren't really that great an idea in general, planetary targetting just sucks in the first third/half of the round.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Paisley

Pretty much on the nose there.

When the beta testing was on I did say these stats arent my favourite as there are for "ally wars" and are quite individually boring to play this round in my opinion.

You said this last round

But if you have any ideas to prevent this, I'd love to hear it. The way my mindset is, I struggle to see teh ability to create an interesting and balanced set of statistics which do not require you to have alliance (or at least strong galaxy...) involvement.

Attempts I've made for 'interesting' solo play almost invariably lead to huge advantages as soon as certain planets or groups of planets get big.

[robban1]

well my personal opinion on the stats is that they are kinda crap this round i still want the ships to be "bling" as in a keyship per race now its just um, um

o well its the same to everyone

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Gate

You said this last round

But if you have any ideas to prevent this, I'd love to hear it. The way my mindset is, I struggle to see teh ability to create an interesting and balanced set of statistics which do not require you to have alliance (or at least strong galaxy...) involvement.

Attempts I've made for 'interesting' solo play almost invariably lead to huge advantages as soon as certain planets or groups of planets get big.

R14 with a few adjustments.
Would be my choice for stats.

That had scope for a bit of individual flair.

[K-W]

Complaints of stagnent politics at pt 330 are premature to say the least.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by K-W

Predictions of stagnent politics at pt 330 are premature to say the least.

hey thats about the same time im about to stop playing as its too much foul playing atm

[lokken]

Originally Posted by K-W

Complaints of stagnent politics at pt 330 are premature to say the least.

This is a request to bring this discussion to AD if you want to, I think it warrants one and is clearly offtopic here.

[jerome]

this is the second round in a row where i feel the stats are really, really boring though i find it really hard to describe why i feel as such but does anyone else vaguely understand what i mean?

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by jerome

this is the second round in a row where i feel the stats are really, really boring though i find it really hard to describe why i feel as such but does anyone else vaguely understand what i mean?

I FEEL WITH YOU JER!

[Gate]

Originally Posted by jerome

this is the second round in a row where i feel the stats are really, really boring though i find it really hard to describe why i feel as such but does anyone else vaguely understand what i mean?

You can't see an overpowered race to pick, and then spend your time watching everyone else complain about another race being overpowered, and then have an easy round?

I know what you mean

[jerome]

i meant more along the lines of the stagnated "feel"

(also the stats i enjoyed the most so far were r11 and they had no overpowered race at all. and for those of you believe it was xand you're actually probably just an idiot)

[Benneh]

Urgh i totally agree with the stats being boring. They just are, theres not much fun..

Best stats i think were rd14.

[lokken]

Playing cathaar and just sitting there nutting targets was no fun, Benneh. :|

[Gate]

What was it that the round 14 stats had that made it so much more fun? Was it the stealship for each race? Or was it just the balance?

Otherwise, I'm struggling to understand how. It looks like a similar setup to the stats we have currently.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by Gate

What was it that the round 14 stats had that made it so much more fun? Was it the stealship for each race? Or was it just the balance?

Otherwise, I'm struggling to understand how. It looks like a similar setup to the stats we have currently.

well i think i whined enough on the stats last round but it good that you try to figure out why last and present stats are crap

you look at it in the wrong way, perfect balance isnt the key to success

but i was xan r14 and that was prolly fun to be cath that round but xan was terrible

[lokken]

having been #1 for quite a time in r14 (although I finished something like 48th after 1up came and thrashed me), I have to say playing wth cathaar was positively the most dull experience i've had to cope with in PA.

Round 12 were the stats i enjoyed the most, as with zikonian and xandathrii the fleet catches and killing were excellent.

[Benneh]

Round 12 stats made me cry, the hostile"friendlys" got me roided so many times it hurt. although i did enjoy having alot of xan fi.

I liked the all race stealing possible in rd14 it was fun, and about being cath in rd14 lokken, wasnt that DLRS fault to go a non killing race. You made me round hell at points tho. *shakes fist at the killer viper*

[jerome]

r14 was more of a case of the idea being nice (steal ships for each race) but the implementations very lacking, than anything. r12 i remember being similar to r14 in terms of the feel, but without the steal ships heh.

by the way a word to describe why i feel these stats and others are boring is that they are very limited.