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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 03:21   #1
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Free Speech In Europe

DISCLAIMER: First of all this is not a America vs Europe thread. This is a thread about free speech. In no way am I trying to say that the USA is better than anywhere else. Yes we have our problems. Anyhow, please don't bite when idiots troll.

Anyhow, being in America so long I think I've taken free speech for granted and assumed that Europe was pretty free as well. I knew that Swatska's are illegal in Germany, but that never really bothered me. This bothers me:

Quote:
denying the Holocaust [is] a crime [in Austria]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...436992,00.html

Denying the holocaust is ignorant, but to send someone to jail for something they say or want to believe? That's terrible in my humble opinion. Do you guys agree? What is free speech like in the rest of Europe?
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 03:23   #2
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Well, as long as you don't deny the truth, its not a problem.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 03:27   #3
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Well, as long as you don't deny the truth, its not a problem.
I don't like creationists, but I don't think they should go to jail for denying evolution.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 04:04   #4
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

i agree with you, i think that holocaust denial, while disgusting, should not be a crime

not much more to say really :/
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 09:02   #5
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Such policies are obviously born out of fear that NAZI'ism will somehow take root (except in Israel where they have their own issues). Such policies are obviously a disgrace imo, and an admission of the weakness of mainstream politics if they have to rest to banning their "enemies".

There is also a practical issue; such laws on "unacceptable views" could easily be twisted to suit any agenda you wish. There is an article in the most recent Weekly Worker on the issue : http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/602/irving.htm

No doubt wu_trax will show up shortly and tell us all that it's ridiculous that we care about freedom of expression at all, and freedom is overrated and similar truths. After all, if the a law doesn't oppress you directly, why care about it?
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 09:49   #6
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Making holocaust denial illegal is clearly absurd, but since it's only the crazy Germanic countries that do so I hardly think it's fair to comment on "Free Speech In Europe" on that basis.
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 09:53   #7
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

I think Austria needs such a law with all those nazi's that live their.
So that they learn from the mistakes that were made in the past, which won't happen if they deny it.
This would mean they wouldnt have to abolish naziism and ideologies near it,
which would more or less supress alot more people's political standpoints
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Last edited by Alessio; 25 Nov 2005 at 10:05.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 10:10   #8
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
it's only the crazy Germanic countries that do
And France, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania, Romania, the Czech Republic and Slovakia (afaik).
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 10:17   #9
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Speaking as an anarchist and someone who would not necessarily be against violent pulbic uprising I am aware that had I been living in the United States in the 50s and 60s I could have been in big trouble.
This is a good point. Isn't it / wasn't it illegal to publically declare support for the violent overthrow of the United States government at one point?

I remember reading that if you were a foriegn national in the US and you admitted to customs / immigration control that you were an anarchist you would be deported, although that might be untrue.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 10:48   #10
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And France, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania, Romania, the Czech Republic and Slovakia (afaik).


Anyway, how is such a law compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, which I assume all of these countries have signed up to?
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 10:58   #11
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus


Anyway, how is such a law compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, which I assume all of these countries have signed up to?
I highlighted the bit that caused my most recent bout of hysterical laughter.

Quote:
Article 10 – Freedom of expression1

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 13:01   #12
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

The notion that free speech has always been and will always be unlimited is a fairy tale.

Keep in mind that the Holocaust is somthing of particular significance in Austria. Perhaps it is deeply ingrained in their social consciousness, they may well be particularly sensitive about it.

Last edited by Cooling; 25 Nov 2005 at 13:06.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 14:01   #13
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

In England I have the freedom to say that anyone who refers to 'Europe' as though it were a united entity rather than just being the name for a continent is mentally retarded.

P.S. Freedom of Speech has always been a qualified rather than an absolute right for reasons which really should be obvious.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 14:13   #14
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

didnt we argue about this topic like 50,000 times before? freedom in general is overrated anyway.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:08   #15
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Free speech isnt legal in the UK either; if you started saying words like 'n*gger' in public then youd get arrested for hate speech or breach of the peace or some shit like that.

edit: lol word censor.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:35   #16
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No doubt wu_trax will show up shortly and tell us all that it's ridiculous that we care about freedom of expression at all, and freedom is overrated and similar truths. After all, if the a law doesn't oppress you directly, why care about it?
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didnt we argue about this topic like 50,000 times before? freedom in general is overrated anyway.
ho ho ho
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:44   #17
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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SANTA?!?! :xmas:
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:47   #18
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
SANTA?!?! :xmas:
I thought I'd already explained this.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:50   #19
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
I thought I'd already explained this.
Yeah but i ignore a random 42.34 percentage of all your posts because I keep reading 'york cathedral' in your signature and being annoyed because ITS A MINSTER DAMNIT and then my brain dies a little inside.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:52   #20
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Have you ever noticed how Santa is Satan minus the n?

This is not a coincidence. Think on it.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 15:54   #21
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Have you ever noticed how Santa is Satan minus the n?

This is not a coincidence. Think on it.
Yeah, it is a bit like Satan without the 'n', only with the 'n'.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:00   #22
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
Yeah but i ignore a random 42.34 percentage of all your posts because I keep reading 'york cathedral' in your signature and being annoyed because ITS A MINSTER DAMNIT and then my brain dies a little inside.
Better?
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:08   #23
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Better?
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:25   #24
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

Something makes me suspect that York Minster as it now is did not exist in 1186, when the Gothic style was only really kicking off.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:27   #25
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Something makes me suspect that York Minster as it now is did not exist in 1186, when the Gothic style was only really kicking off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.tourist-information-uk.com/yorkminster.htm
York Minster was built between the 12th and the 15th Century and is the largest
Gothic church in England. It is 524 feet (160m) long and 249 feet (76m) wide ...
edit
Quote:
The church was damaged in 1069, but the first Norman archbishop, arriving in 1070, organised repairs. The Danes destroyed the church in 1075, but it was again rebuilt from 1080. Built in the Norman style, it was 365 feet long and rendered in white and red lines. The new structure was damaged by fire in 1137 but was soon repaired. The choir and crypt were remodelled in 1154, and a new chapel was built, all in the Norman style.

Gothic style in cathedrals had arrived in the mid 12th century. Walter de Gray was made archbishop in 1215 and ordered the construction of a Gothic structure to compare to Canterbury; building began in 1220.
from wikipedia

oops, i missed the last sentance. only 40 years out. :/
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:28   #26
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

The Cathedral & Metropolitcal Church of St. Peter in York is popularly known as 'York Minster' from its original foundation as a missionary church or monaterium. It is the seat of the Archbishop of York and, as such, is, not surprisingly, the most dramatic of churches in Northern England. It is simply vast - the largest medieval cathedral in Northern Europe - and displays some of the best examples of the medieval craftsman's work to be found anywhere. Particularly of note are the fine carvings in the chapter house (c.1275) and the fantastic array of medieval glass dating back to the 12th century.

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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:29   #27
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

There are many limitations to free speech all around the world.

Even the most avid defenders of freedom of speech or freedom of expression usually admit at some point that free spreading of child pornography should be restricted.

There are many many restrictions to "free speech" and they are actually beeing extended all the time. In germany for example right after saying that there is no censoring done, it limits free speech/publication for "protection of youth" (which can be equally shady defined as the term "morale" in EU law). For example the new german coalition which formed the government have once again an increase of law to protect the youth in their agenda - concretely they want to forbid "killer" games again (their production, selling, owning etc.) - beeing defined as a game (RL or video) where the only solution to a problem is violence.

In Germany its not only presentation of swastika or the famous "Hitlergruß" which is forbidden, its all kind of "memorablia" of the Nazi regime like certain insignia. It is a bit silly because it results in NeoNazis in germany simply using a closed fist instead of a open hand for the "Hitlergruß" and probably means it ties the group closer together as the state "opresses" them.

Common limits to free speech are also stuff like standing up in a crowded cinema and yelling "Fire Fire" or most recently in the US making bomb jokes on a airport (not sure if its actually forbidden or can just give you a lot trouble of security ppl).

However all of those restrictions are coming from the government and therefore usually (often) have some kind of democratic legitimation. A new trend is with the wide expansion of intellectual property law that companies can define what you cant talk about and even work on - stuff like the "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" can enforce.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:30   #28
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
In 1137 York Cathedral was damaged by fire.
Quote:
It was in 1220 that construction of the Minster as we know it began.
http://www.yorkminster.org/

Manson wins yo.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:31   #29
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
yeah i just found that info and edited my post :/
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 16:41   #30
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Even the most avid defenders of freedom of speech or freedom of expression usually admit at some point that free spreading of child pornography should be restricted.
I can see you've never met dante.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 17:24   #31
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I don't even think the sedition act was ever repealed in the USA, although they'd be screwed if they tried to invoke it now (um I guess)

Obviously there is stuff like COINTELPRO and blowing up Al Jazeera.

There are the famous immigration questions of "Are you a homsexual?" "Are you a communist?", whether these ever existed I would have to defer to google at some stage.
When I joined the Marines in 1995 they just stopped asking those questions. I remember my recruiter began to ask the communist one and then looked down and scratched the questions out from the form and said: 'oh, we can't ask this anymore.'

Threatening the president's life and speaking for the violent overthrow of the government is illegal in the US.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 17:53   #32
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

btw, I hope that the Austrians send Iriving to a camp and gas him so that I can write a book saying it never happened.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:01   #33
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The Cathedral & Metropolitcal Church of St. Peter in York is popularly known as 'York Minster' from its original foundation as a missionary church or monaterium. It is the seat of the Archbishop of York and, as such, is, not surprisingly, the most dramatic of churches in Northern England. It is simply vast - the largest medieval cathedral in Northern Europe - and displays some of the best examples of the medieval craftsman's work to be found anywhere. Particularly of note are the fine carvings in the chapter house (c.1275) and the fantastic array of medieval glass dating back to the 12th century.

TAKE THE VIRTUAL TOUR!!

DISCLAIMER: Enby has suffered recent tragedy and can be forgiven for not bothering to google!!

EDIT: I am also pleased to see that GD has managed to make something interesting out of a silly thread. Go team!!
Been around a couple of times - I get free access as a student.
It's quite pretty. I got a nice t-shirt from there (ironically with a celtic knot on it).
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:02   #34
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Been around a couple of times - I get free access as a student.
It's quite pretty. I got a nice t-shirt from there (ironically with a celtic knot on it).
Oh my.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:04   #35
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Oh my.
"I've been around York Minster more than once in the (semi) recent past"

better? :-)
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:05   #36
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

Nevermind hun.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:05   #37
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Been around a couple of times - I get free access as a student.
It's quite pretty. I got a nice t-shirt from there (ironically with a celtic knot on it).
At least SOMEBODY noticed that I solved the great cathedral/minster debate much earlier, far better and with clever use of virtual technology!!!

all this 'manson wins' rubbish makes me sick ...
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:11   #38
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Talking Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
At least SOMEBODY noticed that I solved the great cathedral/minster debate much earlier, far better and with clever use of virtual technology!!!

all this 'manson wins' rubbish makes me sick ...
I thought it was hypothermia that was making you sick ?
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:11   #39
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

Who needs a virtual tour when I can hop on the bus and view it whenever I want?

Perhaps Buckingshamshire yokel stable boys who Stephen is so fond of need these kinds of 'aids' to appreicate great architecture, but we do not.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:15   #40
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Who needs a virtual tour when I can hop on the bus and view it whenever I want?

Perhaps Buckingshamshire yokel stable boys who Stephen is so fond of need these kinds of 'aids' to appreicate great architecture, but we do not.
pure post envy.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:21   #41
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Exclamation Re: Free Speech In Europe

Oh, get over yourself, dear!
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:48   #42
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
There are many limitations to free speech all around the world.
Yes, and this is usually a bad thing.

Quote:
Even the most avid defenders of freedom of speech or freedom of expression usually admit at some point that free spreading of child pornography should be restricted.
AS JBG has said, not me.

Yes, there are cases where restrictions on freedom of speech are justified. The usual examples are 'commercial speech' / or shouting fire in a crowded theatre or things like this. However, this does not mean that 'freedom of expression' is not a general right. The exceptions are also not arbritrary - they follow a set rationale.

After all, it's possible to construct scenario's justifying torture or child abuse but even so these things are still, by default, wrong.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 25 Nov 2005 at 19:00. Reason: horrible phrasing
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 18:58   #43
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

There's something utterly fabulous about an internet forum where people are praised for constructing scenarios in which child abuse is justified.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 20:25   #44
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Free speech isnt legal in the UK either; if you started saying words like 'n*gger' in public then youd get arrested for hate speech or breach of the peace or some shit like that.

edit: lol word censor.
i thought free speech in the uk was limited to that one soap box in that one park in london? can you say niggr niggr niggr there at least?

i have to say, it's certainly arguable that germany's (austria's i guess) anti-free speech policy is superior to japan's policy of atrocity denial. being wrong by personal choice vs. being right by force of law? hmm. i'd rather be wrong, but barely.

it's hard to favor free speech; it almost always 'makes the world a worse place.' hence the predominant opposition.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 22:22   #45
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Speech is never free. There are always consequences. There are always costs.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 22:52   #46
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Freedom of speech in Germany only applies to opinions, not facts. So if you publish false "facts", you can get sued. Of course, it is often hard to draw a line here, but in the case of the holocaust courts ruled that it did indeed happen and denying it can be persecuted.

I donīt really mind this law, but there is also a law concerning "hate speech" and of course the already mentioned dodgy regulations to "protect the youth". The former stems from a post-war fear of allowing something like the Weimarer Republik again and most people seem to be OK with it, but the latter just causes kids to download unaltered versions of films/games.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 22:57   #47
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Speech is never free. There are always consequences. There are always costs.
And the missing-the-point-award for most general useless statement of the day goes to...dda!
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 22:59   #48
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
Freedom of speech in Germany only applies to opinions, not facts. So if you publish false "facts", you can get sued. Of course, it is often hard to draw a line here, but in the case of the holocaust courts ruled that it did indeed happen and denying it can be persecuted.

I donīt really mind this law, but there is also a law concerning "hate speech" and of course the already mentioned dodgy regulations to "protect the youth". The former stems from a post-war fear of allowing something like the Weimarer Republik again and most people seem to be OK with it, but the latter just causes kids to download unaltered versions of films/games.
What if I am of the opinion that established facts about the holocaust are fabricated lies?
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 23:01   #49
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And the missing-the-point-award for most general useless statement of the day goes to...dda!
I have never missed your point. However, I have always felt it kinder not to refer to the shape of your head.
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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 23:21   #50
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
What if I am of the opinion that established facts about the holocaust are fabricated lies?
With opinion I did not mean opinions that state facts but stuff like: "The holocaust was pretty cool." Which might actually be a legal thing to say(except if it already qualifies as hate speech).

Last edited by Opi; 26 Nov 2005 at 00:10.
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