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Unread 25 Nov 2005, 23:25   #51
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
With opinion I did not mean opinions that state facts but stuff like: "The holocaust was pretty cool." Which might actually be a legal thing to say(except it already qualifies as hate speech).
I think there might be a translation problem with 'opinion' here.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 00:21   #52
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
So if you publish false "facts", you can get sued.
I should bloody well hope not. Obviously if said "facts" are slanderous/libellous/whatever then that's a different matter (under the current legal system) but if I publish a book saying the world is flat, the moon is made of cheese and that all tree's are made of plastic then I cannot be sued (afaik) and neither would it be desirable to have a system where you could.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 01:01   #53
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I should bloody well hope not. Obviously if said "facts" are slanderous/libellous/whatever then that's a different matter (under the current legal system) but if I publish a book saying the world is flat, the moon is made of cheese and that all tree's are made of plastic then I cannot be sued (afaik) and neither would it be desirable to have a system where you could.
Yeah, I didn´t explicitly state that, of course to get sued you need someone to sue you and a court that will accept the case, so it applies only to acts of a certain importance(e.g. slander etc as you said).
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 01:26   #54
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I should bloody well hope not. Obviously if said "facts" are slanderous/libellous/whatever then that's a different matter (under the current legal system) but if I publish a book saying the world is flat, the moon is made of cheese and that all tree's are made of plastic then I cannot be sued (afaik) and neither would it be desirable to have a system where you could.
as far as i know you can only celebrities can sue newspapers about 'false facts'. Anyone remember that whole schröder-dyeing-his-hair incident? those kind of things.
Other than that you can write whatever you want in a scientific book for example.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 01:39   #55
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
as far as i know you can only celebrities can sue newspapers about 'false facts'. Anyone remember that whole schröder-dyeing-his-hair incident? those kind of things.
Other than that you can write whatever you want in a scientific book for example.
You can not write "whatever you want" in a scientific book because the freedom of science doesnt unbind you from "der Treue zum Staat" (im too lazy to lookup the exact phrase now)
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 01:45   #56
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
With opinion I did not mean opinions that state facts but stuff like: "The holocaust was pretty cool." Which might actually be a legal thing to say(except if it already qualifies as hate speech).
There is also a law in germany making it illegal to praise the nazi regime and saying something like your example may well be constructed as praising the nazi regime :O

Again excuse me that im too tired to lookup the exact law - if it is of interest to the general public, i will post about it tomorrow. It is actually a very interesting law - very carefully worded.

ps: actually your example may also fall under another law too

pps: and what exactly does a neg rep saying "one post will do" for this posting mean?

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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 01:51   #57
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

god, im bored, i actually looked that up, is that Artikel 5(3) and 18 GG you are talking about? I can live with that, doesnt sound too bad.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 02:12   #58
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Allowing nazis to spread they're message of hate, violence and massmurder is as wise as employing peados at kindergartens.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 03:07   #59
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I have never missed your point. However, I have always felt it kinder not to refer to the shape of your head.
Forgive my momentary malice, that post of yours I quoted before was nonsensical condescending crap that idiots like my father spew to sound authoritative on something seemingly important, but it's just unintellectual drivel. It's really not like you to talk in silly absolutes.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 03:27   #60
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Forgive my momentary malice, that post of yours I quoted before was nonsensical condescending crap that idiots like my father spew to sound authoritative on something seemingly important, but it's just unintellectual drivel. It's really not like you to talk in silly absolutes.
well

let's review.

he said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Speech is never free. There are always consequences. There are always costs
I do not see how that is "authoritative". I do not see how that is "unintellectual drivel".

I can not for the life of me comprehend that saying what he said was talking in absolutes.

I do not understand your reply post (which i appear to have quoted). Not a word of your post makes sense to me.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 03:43   #61
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I do not understand your reply post (which i appear to have quoted). Not a word of your post makes sense to me.
I know that saying you're 'confused' or 'that you don't understand something' is code for something else. You would never admit being confused about anything you'd judge worthwhile, because as you have such a high opinion of yourself (on the surface), and that what you are really saying is something else. Forgive me if I don't understand what that something is, because your code confuses me.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 03:46   #62
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Speech is never free. There are always consequences. There are always costs.
Q.F.T.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 10:37   #63
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I do not see how that is "unintellectual drivel".
Mainly because it sounds like something you'd get in a fortune cookie. It's true, yet doesn't actually make much of a contribution to the general question 'should there be a criminal punishment for those who deny the holocaust'.

We can all talk in slightly bland aphorisms if you like, but then we might be mistaken for Nietzsche and Nodrog would try to have sex with us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
Yeah, I didn´t explicitly state that, of course to get sued you need someone to sue you and a court that will accept the case, so it applies only to acts of a certain importance(e.g. slander etc as you said).
Acts of certain importance? Can you define that? The evolution vs intelligent design is an incredibly important debate to some, should you be able to sue someone who publishes something "untrue" there too?

And besides, this doesn't seem to be an instance of civil action, these are nations where you can be imprisoned for ten years over the issue.

Or what about denial of other massacres? Quite a few (e.g. Diana Johnstone) have 'denied' the scale/scope of the massacres at Srebrenica, for instance. Should they be subject to criminal punishment?
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 12:32   #64
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Can you define that?
Not really, sorry. Guess I got dragged a little too far into a discussion where I´m not too firm with the actual law.
The only point I actually wanted to make was that there are other laws in Germany, that are IMO much more important restrictions to freedom of speech than the one about the holocaust.

Maybe wu_trax or Ramihyn are able to provide more detailed answers.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 12:42   #65
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

no, sorry, i only pretend to know what im talking about
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 15:39   #66
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Disclaimer: this is about german law, where possible i try to do appropriate translations

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
god, im bored, i actually looked that up, is that Artikel 5(3) and 18 GG you are talking about? I can live with that, doesnt sound too bad.
GG 5 (3) is what i refered to regarding limitations of freedom of science

§18 has been used in some cases against NeoNazi and also quite a few radical left parties.

The "other law" i meant regarding the example Opi used is StgB §189 which translates to "disparaging of the dead" which has more or less been crafted to combat certain Nazi propaganda which tries to avoid §130.

StgB §86a covers prohibited insignia, symbols and speech (like greetings), §130 covers "incitement of the people"/sedition.

For german readers this is a good (but not complete AFAIK) summary: http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/...rty=source.pdf
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 16:08   #67
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Mainly because it sounds like something you'd get in a fortune cookie. It's true, yet doesn't actually make much of a contribution to the general question 'should there be a criminal punishment for those who deny the holocaust'.
Is it so hard to understand that words and actions are not always seperated? That there might be a link between the two? And that there are consequences of words and propaganda in terms of action (violence)?
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 16:14   #68
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Is it so hard to understand that words and actions are not always seperated? That there might be a link between the two? And that there are consequences of words and propaganda in terms of action (violence)?
Of course. But empowering the bourgeois state to take away people's freedoms is not something I am comfortable with.

There are much better ways of fighting fascists than having laws against denying historical events.

And also,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
§18 has been used in some cases against NeoNazi and also quite a few radical left parties.
Comrade Zhukov, do you think they (the state) will stop at just fighting nazi's? Read the Weekly Worker article I posted earlier in this thread, it gives a decent Marxist analysis of all of this.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 16:41   #69
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

The State will attack us regardless of what laws it makes, it is not restricted to follow its own laws.
The state or state sponsored units will attack us when they feel like we are a force who hinders them, and who might even threathen them in one way or another.

Denying nazis the propaganda tool isnt bad, but it doesnt stop them alone, but it places a hinder for they're growth. By norwegian law it's illegal to publicly advocate racism. It's acutally in the same paragraph that makes it illegal to spread insulting lies about people.

WWII-history is a hinder for nazi growth. That is why they want to re-write it, so they are not portrayed as the people they are. People like David Irving might be far more dangerous than the local group of nazi thugs standing on the corner. And yes, we have a few "intelectuals" who tries to help the nazis here too, for instance a history professory who thinks Irving is amazing and some kind of sociologist who advocates that nazis and anti-nazis are just gangs, who should be treated the same by police.
They might not wear bomber jackets and army boots, but they help the nazis anyway.

If Ramihyn would post the paragraph 18 text, and state what "radical left parties" it have been used on.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 17:26   #70
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

The Nazi's arent 'growing', and nazism isnt making a comeback outside the minds of deluded leftwing lunatics who imagine themselves as being in perpetual conflict with nonexistent fascist bogeymen. Europe does tend to have a rather strange attitude towards immigrants, but to equate this with a resurge in nazism seems a tad farfetched.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:02   #71
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Mainly because it sounds like something you'd get in a fortune cookie. It's true, yet doesn't actually make much of a contribution to the general question 'should there be a criminal punishment for those who deny the holocaust'.
I hadn't taken such a narrow and insular view of the question.

I generally find taking the view that simplifying questions to a yes or no proposition is an act of intellectual vandalism designed only to comfort the weak minded.

I think it's pretty clear that dda didn't take your view on this debate.

Perhaps your 'method' would be better served by a poll.

Though I personally won't bother to vote.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:11   #72
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Some things really just are simple black and white issues though. This is one of them. Claiming that everything in the world is complex and multifaceted does not make it so.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:14   #73
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Some things really just are simple black and white issues though. This is one of them. Claiming that everything in the world is complex and multifaceted does not make it so.
Yes.

It is such a black and white issue that all 25 EU member states deal with the question in exactly the same way.

go troll someone else.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:30   #74
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I hadn't taken such a narrow and insular view of the question.

I generally find taking the view that simplifying questions to a yes or no proposition is an act of intellectual vandalism designed only to comfort the weak minded.
It's not a matter of whether it's yes or no / agreement or disagreement. My point was how does :

"Speech is never free. There are always consequences. There are always costs."

Contribute anything to the discussion at hand? I am not only interested in whether people agree with the law or not - and thus a poll would be of little interest to me. I am interested in the philosophical justification people have for their views, where they see this issue fitting into wider issues of freedom, etc. How people approach this question probably gives considerable insight into how they approach other (similar) questions in politics.

Vague stoner-esque pronouncements on the matter are of considerably less interest.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:36   #75
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
My point was how does :
"Speech is never free. There are always consequences. There are always costs."
Contribute anything to the discussion at hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I am interested in the philosophical justification people have for their views, where they see this issue fitting into wider issues of freedom, etc. How people approach this question probably gives considerable insight into how they approach other (similar) questions in politics.
Somebody bothers to give you their philosophical justification and you dismiss it out of hand. Pretending (rather childishly in my opinion) that their philosophical justification is 'silly' or 'the product of drugs' just because you happen to disagree with it.

I am not so much surprised as disapointed.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:39   #76
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Yes.

It is such a black and white issue that all 25 EU member states deal with the question in exactly the same way.
Different countries deal differently with the issue of stoning promiscuous women to death, yet this does not prevent it from being black and white. The fact that people disagree about something doesnt automatically mean that its a particularly difficult and complex topic (lol creationism).

Austria is wrong, and is hence shit.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:50   #77
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Somebody bothers to give you their philosophical justification and you dismiss it out of hand.
Philosophical justification for what exactly?

What does "speech is never free" actually mean? It's so vague to be worthless which is where the objection(s) have stemmed from.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 18:56   #78
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Philosophical justification for what exactly?

What does "speech is never free" actually mean? It's so vague to be worthless which is where the objection(s) have stemmed from.
I imagine it means that: "There are always consequences. There are always costs."

how is it vague?

I have to say that if you genuinely want to be told the "philosophical justification people have for their views" then this is a very strange way to encourage them to take the effort to tell you
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 19:20   #79
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Well, to deal with the specific before the General, this particular law is currently in the news because it is being invoked against Holocaust-Denier and all around evil bastard David Irving. I was at the LSE and attended his libel trial at the royal courts of justice in 1999-2000, and I could not be happier to hear that he faces 20 years in prison for being so stupid as to head into Austria to speak at a far-right rally when the country already had an outstanding warrant out for his arrest.

Even if he should not be locked up forever for holocaust denial, he should be locked up for being that stupid.

Anyway, in general terms, I have no real problem with European countries banning Nazi regalia, symbols and esposing Nazist propaganda or philosophy. Part of the traum to Europe of the whole Nazi period is obviously the second world war and the holocaust, but another part of the traume is the realisation that nobody really did very much to stop the far right/ Nazi parties for a long time, and that most European countries, even eventual allies, had a well attended and popular pro-Nazi or pro-Facisti party.

The laws are there as a bandage on that particular trauma, to remind people that certain views are simply NOT acceptable to preach.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 21:45   #80
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

so here we are, 83 posts into the thread, and a number of people have come out and said that they think free speech is good.

but not a single person has even tried to explain why we are better off allowing people to deny the holocaust, which would seem the relevant thing to do for a free speecher.

and i consider myself one of the free speech crowd. so my question is, do free speechers in general not know why we favor it, or is it like atheists where we aren't required to justify our beliefs, just anyone that disagrees?
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 21:53   #81
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

and 5 years for beeing a shit "historian", Vermillion.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 22:02   #82
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
but not a single person has even tried to explain why we are better off allowing people to deny the holocaust, which would seem the relevant thing to do for a free speecher.
The beauty of dealing in principles is that theres no need to get bogged down in the details of specific cases. I'll argue for free-speech in general, but I'm not going to get sidetracked into the whys and why nots of allowing holocaust denial, because theyre largely irrelevant. Its similar to how I can argue for drug legislation on moral grounds without needing to know or care about the effect that DXM has on the human body.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 22:04   #83
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The beauty of dealing in principles is that theres no need to get bogged down in the details of specific cases.
as soon as your principles are wrong in a single case, your principles are wrong, yes?
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 22:04   #84
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
but not a single person has even tried to explain why we are better off allowing people to deny the holocaust, which would seem the relevant thing to do for a free speecher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But empowering the bourgeois state to take away people's freedoms is not something I am comfortable with.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 22:06   #85
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
as soon as your principles are wrong in a single case, your principles are wrong, yes?
Sure, but it depends what you mean by principles being 'wrong'. Having effects which you personally dont like is not automatically a flaw.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 22:08   #86
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
as soon as your principles are wrong in a single case, your principles are wrong, yes?
What exactly do you mean by "wrong"?
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 23:30   #87
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
as soon as your principles are wrong in a single case, your principles are wrong, yes?
As mentioned, it depends on what you mean here. In this context, a principle is a general rule. The general rule (or default position if you prefer) is that we should have freedom of expression. This is usually termed 'a right'

The fact there are exceptions to this general rule does not it is wrong as such, and it isn't particularly problematic unless the exceptions are arbritrary or baseless.

So it's OK to say "killing people is wrong" despite the fact we know there are ocassions where killing people can be a good thing. We are not designing ethics for robots here, but discussing the way rational conscious human beings approach real-life problems.

As for "the benefits" to allowing people to deny the holocaust - this (in my opinion) is the wrong way of approaching the question. The use of the law ultimately is the use of force (or violence). The burden of proof is on those who wish to initiate the use of force in any political context. Cue the quote from Chomsky :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noam Chomsky
That is what I have always understood to be the essence of anarchism: the conviction that the burden of proof has to be placed on authority, and that it should be dismantled if that burden cannot be met. Sometimes the burden can be met. If I'm taking a walk with my grandchildren and they dart out into a busy street, I will use not only authority but also physical coercion to stop them. The act should be challenged, but I think it can readily meet the challenge.
However, having said all of that, there are numerous advantages to freedom of speech (on this question):
1) This type of legislation acts as a type of precedent. As I've stated, if it's OK to imprison people for lengthy periods for denying the European holocaust, then why not other large scale massacres? Why not other issues?
2) Legislation could potentially be used to suppress legitimate debate on this topic. From the quoted articles it seems illegal to not only deny the holocaust but also to downplay it's scale. Estimates (even now) seem to vary widely in how many people were killed in the holocaust - at what point do we invoke the law? If I say a million die, am I imprisoned? Two million?

Yes, Irving is a shit-head both politically and personally. But if we're going to imprison everyone whose views we don't happen to like then boy, we better start building some more prisons.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 23:43   #88
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
However, having said all of that, there are numerous advantages to freedom of speech (on this question):
1) This type of legislation acts as a type of precedent. As I've stated, if it's OK to imprison people for lengthy periods for denying the European holocaust, then why not other large scale massacres? Why not other issues?
.
as i've said i agree with you. however, i think it was mentioned that we don't allow pedophiles to teach in public schools. so why not prevent darkies from teaching our kids too?

it's a 'slippery slope' argument isn't it? "i'm against 'A' even though it's a good thing, because I think it could lead to 'B' which is bad."

I hate slippery slope arguments. I think they are shit. Probably sometimes they are right though.
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Unread 26 Nov 2005, 23:55   #89
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by acropolis
as i've said i agree with you. however, i think it was mentioned that we don't allow pedophiles to teach in public schools. so why not prevent darkies from teaching our kids too?
As I say, some exceptions are abritrary, some aren't. There's a reason why we don't allow child molestors to teach in schools, that reason wouldn't apply to black people. Having a rule that said something like "It's wrong to kill people unless it's via reasonable self-defence" would be OK, having a rule "It's wrong to kill people unless they're called Trevor" wouldn't be so cool.
Quote:
it's a 'slippery slope' argument isn't it? "i'm against 'A' even though it's a good thing, because I think it could lead to 'B' which is bad."
I don't want to live in a world where people can't deny the holocaust. Having the freedom to deny the holocaust is a good thing in and of itself. So not exactly, no.

Slippery slope arguments often miss the point. This is bad because it's bad and because it could lead to other bad stuff happening. But it's not so much of a slope, it's more giving the local bully (the state) an extra bat to hit people with. And that's not a very good idea in most circumstances.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 00:15   #90
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As I say, some exceptions are abritrary, some aren't. There's a reason why we don't allow child molestors to teach in schools, that reason wouldn't apply to black people. Having a rule that said something like "It's wrong to kill people unless it's via reasonable self-defence" would be OK, having a rule "It's wrong to kill people unless they're called Trevor" wouldn't be so cool.

I don't want to live in a world where people can't deny the holocaust. Having the freedom to deny the holocaust is a good thing in and of itself. So not exactly, no.

Slippery slope arguments often miss the point. This is bad because it's bad and because it could lead to other bad stuff happening.
so it's bad because it's bad. the fact that you'd rather not live in a world with it makes sense, given that it's bad.

but what if it's good?

then if you are right, there should be some contradiction. i assume you believe the reason it's bad stems from the 'arbitrary' you put up there. but how is it arbitrary? 'people aren't allowed to say the kind of things that lead to the worst event in human history' doesn't seem too arbitrary to me.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 00:18   #91
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As I say, some exceptions are abritrary, some aren't. There's a reason why we don't allow child molestors to teach in schools.
Why don't we allow child molesters to teach in schools? There is a theoritical chance they won't do it again, you know.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 00:20   #92
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Why don't we allow child molesters to teach in schools? There is a theoritical chance they won't do it again, you know.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 00:26   #93
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Why don't we allow child molesters to teach in schools? There is a theoritical chance they won't do it again, you know.
Well, I'd imagine in most cases it would depend on a risk assesment undertaken by the school. In certain circumstances it might be acceptable, but that depends on the individuals in question. Quite frankly, it's none of my business - I don't actually want to rule over other people's lives - they can make these decisions.

But your entire (hysterical) point seems rather strange. The NAZI's are not about to come back because Irving (or whomever) are writing substandard history books. They are not a threat (on a general level) and even where they are (e.g. limited acts) the banning of holocaust denial has limited importance. Britain and the United States does not have such laws on holocaust denial and NAZI'ism is not a significant force here either. In fact, the extreme Nationalists are not a (significant) threat in the UK because quite frankly, they lost control of the streets. If they seriously marched in London they would have the ****ing shit beaten out of them.

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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 00:32   #94
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
1) This type of legislation acts as a type of precedent. As I've stated, if it's OK to imprison people for lengthy periods for denying the European holocaust, then why not other large scale massacres? Why not other issues?
Actually some people want to extend it on other massacres too. Right on/after 9/11 there where a few occasions where people where taken into arrest saying stuff like "it was their own fault" about the people who died in the twin towers in NY. But AFAIK those few cases where it happened (and the media talked about them) where released later and not convicted.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 00:35   #95
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by acropolis
but how is it arbitrary? 'people aren't allowed to say the kind of things that lead to the worst event in human history' doesn't seem too arbitrary to me.
Sorry, I was unclear : Some bad rules are bad not because they're arbritrary but because their supporting argument/reasoning is insufficient.

The argument seems to (essentially) be : If we don't have holocaust denial laws in place then we might have another holocaust.

This seems to be entirely unsupported by any sort of evidence. We are living in a totally different Europe today, with different dynamics, different demographics, different economies...to that of the 1930's and 40's. I am not saying fascism is not a possible theoretical danger (ironically the biggest danger comes from Russia at the moment - the country which lost most to the NAZI's) but it's a rather weak argument anyway.

Besides, I'm skeptical these laws actually work. As T&F said, to ban something adds a certain level of credence to it. There were plenty of banned films in the UK which people were always trying to get hold of (despite being generally terrible) because they were banned. If you knew there were 3/4 banned books in your country wouldn't you be curious to read them? I remember when Spycatcher was banned in the UK my mum asked for an American friend to send a copy over just to see what the fuss was about.

Making Irving some sort of martyr by these sorts of actions seem a waste of time.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 01:13   #96
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sorry, I was unclear : Some bad rules are bad not because they're arbritrary but because their supporting argument/reasoning is insufficient.

The argument seems to (essentially) be : If we don't have holocaust denial laws in place then we might have another holocaust.

This seems to be entirely unsupported by any sort of evidence. We are living in a totally different Europe today, with different dynamics, different demographics, different economies...to that of the 1930's and 40's. I am not saying fascism is not a possible theoretical danger (ironically the biggest danger comes from Russia at the moment - the country which lost most to the NAZI's) but it's a rather weak argument anyway.

Besides, I'm skeptical these laws actually work. As T&F said, to ban something adds a certain level of credence to it. There were plenty of banned films in the UK which people were always trying to get hold of (despite being generally terrible) because they were banned. If you knew there were 3/4 banned books in your country wouldn't you be curious to read them? I remember when Spycatcher was banned in the UK my mum asked for an American friend to send a copy over just to see what the fuss was about.

Making Irving some sort of martyr by these sorts of actions seem a waste of time.
k. what if there was evidence that neo-nazi speech could lead to another holocaust; what if it appeared that such laws would reduce such speech (assuming you aren't of the nodrog persuasion where counterfactuals are impossible because you are inherently right)? would you favor limiting it then?

i mean, right now we have lots of muslim clerics telling their followers to blow themselves up in public places, so it isn't a trivial hypothetical.

also, saying that taking away people's rights is wrong because it 'seems like a waste of time' seems incredibly weak.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 01:32   #97
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

The schools doesnt take the chance, becouse any previous experience tells us that the rate of the peados continuing to molest children is extremly high. Therefore, instead of acting like idealistic idiots, they ban them from working there.

What happends when the nazis grow from beeing small groups of young, white men who drinks and beats up anyone "non-aryan"? They start target they're opposition. In Sweden, who have a far larget nazi problem than Germany, they have attacked policestations to gain weapons, staged armed robberies (and killing police), killed a trade unionist who were involved in anti-racist work and systematicly bullies youth who attends anti-nazi rallies or is member of anti-rascist organisations.

Or to quote Adolf Hitler from memory: "If someone had understood the essence of our movement and attacked us when we were small, we wouldnt have succeeded".

So Comrade Dante, I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions from history.
Just name one place where there has been a rise of nazi acitivity, and it hasnt been followed by assualts on people with coloured skin or political opponents.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 01:42   #98
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
k. what if there was evidence that neo-nazi speech could lead to another holocaust; what if it appeared that such laws would reduce such speech
"Could"? What does that mean? Obviously it could lead to another holocaust - so could the banning of Cheese and Onion crisps, but it's to do with what's realistic / probable.

But I support free speech regardless, if that's what you mean.
Quote:
also, saying that taking away people's rights is wrong because it 'seems like a waste of time' seems incredibly weak.
No, it's wrong because it's fundamentally wrong. It also just happens to be a waste of time / counter productive. Similarly, randomly shooting Muslim youths would be incredibly evil and wrong but would also fail to reduce terror. Things can be bad for more than one reason.

Freedom is a desirable end in and of itself.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 01:45   #99
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Or to quote Adolf Hitler from memory: "If someone had understood the essence of our movement and attacked us when we were small, we wouldnt have succeeded".

So Comrade Dante, I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions from history.
Yes, we should attack the fascists. But *we* are not the state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Just name one place where there has been a rise of nazi acitivity, and it hasnt been followed by assualts on people with coloured skin or political opponents.
Zhukov, what has this got to do with the thread? We are talking about a specific legal restriction on denial of the holocaust.

Yes, nazi'ism is bad. Is that the point you wanted to make?

Yes fascism needs to be fought (often physically). But that is completely different from putting a rather pathetic academic in prison for writing some terribly written books that most of these thugs you mention have probably never read.
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Unread 27 Nov 2005, 02:04   #100
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Re: Free Speech In Europe

In re Zhukov: paedophiles are not banned from working in schools.

Dante do you think you could stop posting now? you've typed your belief in one way or another several times during this thread. there is much a thing as fanaticism ...
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