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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:37   #51
Zeyi
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
There's plenty of successful real time games with more than 500 players.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
is this an assumption too?

*sigh*

EDIT: you replied before i had to chance to edit in the 2nd quote.

Why are still discussing assumptions, I know what one is clearly you do not. Either that or you're under the ignorant impression that everything you say is fact.
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:38   #52
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Re: Nighttime protection

surely that wasn't my "assumption"

edit.
you do understand that editing posts after people have already replied to them is rude, especially if you don't mention you've edited them?
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:42   #53
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Re: Nighttime protection

The fact you replied within seconds is the issue here, this isn't IRC calm down.

And I did mentioned i edited it, the mere fact I edited it and it doesn't say "edited by" at the bottom means i did it before the forum even decided it was necessary to tell you that I had done so!
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:42   #54
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Why are still discussing assumptions, I know what one is clearly you do not. Either that or you're under the ignorant impression that everything you say is fact.

you're still failing to present me with the assumption i made that's blown of water by your assumption
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:47   #55
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Re: Nighttime protection

*double sigh*

You ignore the majority of my posts. Or atleast don't reply to the parts that you have no comeback for.

Then you say that :

Quote:
There's plenty of successful real time games with more than 500 players.
is an assumption.

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...8&postcount=49

Proves it is not as I was aware of said successful game (and more) before posting.

I'm just going to leave this here, I can only conclude you have NFI what you are talking about.
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:49   #56
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
*double sigh*

You ignore the majority of my posts. Or atleast don't reply to the parts that you have no comeback for.

Then you say that :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi
There's plenty of successful real time games with more than 500 players.

is an assumption.

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...8&postcount=49

Proves it is not as I was aware of said successful game (and more) before posting.

I'm just going to leave this here, I can only conclude you have NFI what you are talking about.
what you claim I said. you said it yourself. now come on.
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:50   #57
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Re: Nighttime protection

Read the post thoroughly, I did not.
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:53   #58
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Read the post thoroughly, I did not.
you're still insisting on misquoting me
i never claimed that was an assumption
can you possibly be more lost in your own drivel than you already are?
you're still dodging around your absurd statement of this and that blowing this and that
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:57   #59
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Re: Nighttime protection

You're massively wrong, and nothing I can say now can fix that. I'm perfectly clear on where we are, what has been said and what needs to be said.

You however are lost and resorting to retorting with insults and meaningless tacts that have deferred us from the original discussion.

I am finished with this debate on the premise that I'm talking to a brick wall. :/
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 18:58   #60
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Re: Nighttime protection

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I am finished with this debate on the premise that I'm talking to a brick wall. :/
rein, raus, rein, raus, rein, raus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
If it is too difficult for you to understand how this is not an assumption then I yield. It then becomes impossible to discuss this subject with you since I'd just be hammering my head on a brick wall and frankly I like my head.
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 19:17   #61
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Re: Nighttime protection

I guess expecting intelligent discussion was a mistake
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 22:34   #62
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Re: Nighttime protection

As an australian and most of uni being from european areas...sleep mode will reduce the number of targets i can hit from 1000 to like 300? which would then make me launch at my night time just so i can hit the few planets still "awake" which is basically just reversing the "night time" raids from middle of the day to night for me.
this solves nothing as you already get a "sleep period" between like 12:00 and21:00 game time
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Unread 20 Jul 2011, 23:23   #63
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
As an australian and most of uni being from european areas...sleep mode will reduce the number of targets i can hit from 1000 to like 300? which would then make me launch at my night time just so i can hit the few planets still "awake" which is basically just reversing the "night time" raids from middle of the day to night for me.
this solves nothing as you already get a "sleep period" between like 12:00 and21:00 game time
The 'reduction in number of targets' is a consequence of a tiny playerbase. If your numbers were 10,000 to 3,000 it wouldn't be as dire. An increase in the amount of players could help reduce this issue. Alternatively, you'd simply need to launch before euros go sleep. Say, eight to nine hours ahead of the typical game time that'd mean probably late morning hours for you (assuming euros go sleep at midnight). For Americans, this issue is lesser, since it'd simply be late noon/early evening to them.

The sleep period happens to be during the time when the majority of the current (and historical) playerbase have their daily chores on. School, work, and so forth. Few can spend that time actually 'sleeping'. This is kind of an issue.

ps. if a moderator happens to pass by, anything from #38 to #61 can probably be gated to abyss. we had a tiny dickwat incident here which caused a slight mess. that series' got no value in an otherwise reasonable discussion.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 20 Jul 2011 at 23:33.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 00:04   #64
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Re: Nighttime protection

Hmm just because you dismiss my suggestions and input doesn't mean they should be removed. Now you're really proving your arrogance.

I agree from #46 onwards can be removed as that became totally offtopic as you had some kind of trouble understanding your own posts. Either way, who's discussing metagame now? Hypocrite.

Also
Quote:
The 'reduction in number of targets' is a consequence of a tiny playerbase. If your numbers were 10,000 to 3,000 it wouldn't be as dire. An increase in the amount of players could help reduce this issue.
Wrong. The ratio is exactly the same, so how is that better?
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 05:22   #65
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. Are you proposing a system in which people in certain time zones cap less than people in others?
Sorry, I didn't quote Killeah. It was meant to be a semi-reply to him.

I was just saying that rather than have a time where i couldn't attack at all I wouldn't mind a reduced roid cap during "sleep" time instead if it meant the player base could grow.

Honestly the way attacks happen right now I only have to wake up to check my attacks. I haven't had any incs this round that weren't either morning (after I'm normally awake) or evening for me.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 05:45   #66
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Hmm just because you dismiss my suggestions and input doesn't mean they should be removed. Now you're really proving your arrogance.
That entire series of posts was pedantic, needlessly confrontational and honestly? just plain shit. Not just yours, but Keiz' too. There was nothing in there worth reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Wrong. The ratio is exactly the same, so how is that better?
You're right, if the number of attackers goes up in proportion to the number of targets, then nothing changes.

However, in the last 30 rounds, that has not been the case. The number of active hardcore players hasn't gone down nearly as much as the number of random newbie targets. I have data on this, if you want it.

Sleep mode would do the same, except in reverse: it doesn't help hardcore players that much, they can already handle the game without help. It would help newbies and casual players. It seems a reasonable assumption to me that features that help casual players but not hardcore players help improve the ratio between them.

(Not that sleep mode alone would turn PA in a 100k player game, but it's a start.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
are we now decided that you can push a '6-hour-sleep-mode' button on demand which will deny anyone launching attacks on you. during this sleep mode your planet will continue inbound development, but any outbound activities cannot be committed (this includes prelaunches for attacks and launching defenses). this mode cannot be cancelled on it's duration. edit. i mean, you cannot launch attacks or defenses of any sort while your planet is on sleep mode. prelaunched attacks on you fail. attacking fleets launched on you cannot be done.
I'm not sure if I agree that sleep mode should be elective. It would allow active players who don't really need sleep mode, to 'save it' until such a time they know they're getting serious incomings, and only then use it. Basically like a short vacation mode, without any down sides.

Mandatory 6 hour downtime every day would make this impossible. Note, though: you should still be able to choose when your planet enters sleep mode, of course. More on that below.

[edit]Oh wow, an unclosed italic tag in a quote will make text outside of the quote italic too. Painful.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
(i'd prefer if prelaunch was mostly abolished on attack fleets anyways. or shortened dramatically to 1-3 hours. this kind of change would partially defeat the original purpose of the feature). however, if you're already under attack when you activate the mode, this will not be interrupted.
Agreed. I'd probably prefer to remove it altogether, but I'd be alright with a severe reduction.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
to take into accoung anyincomings you might be target of before you want to sleep, defensive fleets can be launched towards a planet on sleep mode (again, i think the negative metagame implications of ie. 'hiding fleets' are not relevant).
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
i am in full understanding that a cooldown of 23 (arbitrary. possibly 22) hours can cause 'abuse'. i don't believe it's a relevant problem).
What do you refer to here? I can't think of anything.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 10:41   #67
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Wrong. The ratio is exactly the same, so how is that better?
I'm fully aware the ratio is the same. The fact that mathematical relationships doesn't change will not ensure however that human psychology also won't. Generally, people have been whining about how little targets there are because of the small amount of planets. Take comfort here. A larger amount of planets won't change anything because the ration stays the same, you mean? How come, through the history, people have considered 'more planets, better', even though one CAN assume that 'most ratios remain same'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxtplk
That entire series of posts was pedantic, needlessly confrontational and honestly? just plain shit. Not just yours, but Keiz' too. There was nothing in there worth reading.
I did, very early, however, state that I've given up even attempting a discussion that starts on a very incorrect argument of an 'opinion' or 'appreciation of values' being an 'assumption' (ie. "I believe reducing income for sleep periods is a punishment since it punishes people for having the biological need to sleep, and in order to increase the playerbase we need to accomondate for people's biological rhytms more"). So the bitch yanked, and I simply trolled. I am in a full understanding I did it, and I did say I'd do it. Which is why I asked for the bit to be removed in sake of keeping things cleaner.

I am frankly quite surprised I was bothered to discuss this ratio issue with such extent. Cheap shots that are thrown in without even considering the larger picture (e.g. other benefits that active players could reap from such mode) are just not really that constructive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxtplk
However, in the last 30 rounds, that has not been the case. The number of active hardcore players hasn't gone down nearly as much as the number of random newbie targets. I have data on this, if you want it.
However, as we've witnessed with the Chicago school explaining ketchup economics is pointless to a freshwater economist. We're aware that a pound of ketchup costs half the amount of what two pounds cost, then markets are perfect. Under this presumtion, also, capitol asset pricing model is perfect. We all know none of these are, the premise falls first on the fact that the argument excludes all other factors that might affect the situation.

(this also serves as a prime reason for why I am unwilling to discuss the impacts to meta, unless confronted by a person who actually has a clue. this one doesn't. discussing ketchup economics gets nobody nowhere).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I'm not sure if I agree that sleep mode should be elective. It would allow active players who don't really need sleep mode, to 'save it' until such a time they know they're getting serious incomings, and only then use it. Basically like a short vacation mode, without any down sides.
A six hour downtime each day would be slightly uncomfortable for people living off time zones. However, if you're willing to send them off with it, then your case is better. I wasn't willing to be so time-zoneist.

See, we're already rewarding activity aren't we! How is this, whoever was the jerk that was moaning about it. Yes, on the ball. I'm aware of this, and it does call for 'abuse' too. However, since it'd be possible to scan them for it, you'd still be able to know if they have the option available at any given point. Maybe you'd be able to scam them to it? Maybe not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
What do you refer to here? I can't think of anything.
I think it needs to be less than 24 hours to allow people slight changes, e.g. 'this night I need to go sleep a bit earlier than the other'. However, of course, you can come up with the "mom he spams this mode" -argument, ie. abuse of it. I dismissed it before it happened by calling it not very relevant or dangerous.

Allowing a 'hard' sleep mode is of course relatively rough an approach. But it would probably cover a larger sphere of things people find uncomfortable Alternatively, you could expand the social side, by allowing an 'alliance/galaxy defense fleet slot' and assigning fleet to it, and then a minister/alliance officer could freely designate defensive missions to these fleets. This'd be slightly unorthodox since it'd essentially be OH DEAR GOD ACCOUNT SHARING IS IT, but it'd do something. It's, however, a different subject altogether.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 11:27   #68
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
A six hour downtime each day would be slightly uncomfortable for people living off time zones. However, if you're willing to send them off with it, then your case is better. I wasn't willing to be so time-zoneist.
People in off-zones have to sleep too.

They would benefit less from a sleep mode, of course, since they don't sleep at peak hours, but that's not a problem, in my opinion. It just counters a historic advantage they've always had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
However, since it'd be possible to scan them for it, you'd still be able to know if they have the option available at any given point. Maybe you'd be able to scam them to it? Maybe not.
True enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I think it needs to be less than 24 hours to allow people slight changes, e.g. 'this night I need to go sleep a bit earlier than the other'. However, of course, you can come up with the "mom he spams this mode" -argument, ie. abuse of it. I dismissed it before it happened by calling it not very relevant or dangerous.
...Oh. Wow. Yeah, I can see why you would dismiss that argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Allowing a 'hard' sleep mode is of course relatively rough an approach. But it would probably cover a larger sphere of things people find uncomfortable Alternatively, you could expand the social side, by allowing an 'alliance/galaxy defense fleet slot' and assigning fleet to it, and then a minister/alliance officer could freely designate defensive missions to these fleets. This'd be slightly unorthodox since it'd essentially be OH DEAR GOD ACCOUNT SHARING IS IT, but it'd do something. It's, however, a different subject altogether.
A mandatory sleep mode, without other consessions, would probably encourage zoneism: being the only American in a European galaxy would be rough, because your sleep mode timing would be off, making it much harder for you to get galaxy defence. Dangerously meta, this, though.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 12:26   #69
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Re: Nighttime protection

My apologies for being pedantic but people who assume too much in their arguments, gah. Then to claim it was trolling, oh my.. just please I've already asked why did you start the hostilities?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
People in off-zones have to sleep too.
A mandatory sleep mode, without other consessions, would probably encourage zoneism: being the only American in a European galaxy would be rough, because your sleep mode timing would be off, making it much harder for you to get galaxy defence. Dangerously meta, this, though.
I already brought this up but apparently it is too meta. Of course he's then willing to discuss the impact of a larger amount of players in the game. I'm shouldn't have to mention the fact that metagames are often considered when changing/developing a game and alpha/beta testing are methods we can use to understand it before full release.

Again with the arrogance above though. I have to ask why the ego Tietäjä? You clearly value your own opinion above and beyond everyone else's no matter what they say.

Quote:
I'm fully aware the ratio is the same. The fact that mathematical relationships doesn't change will not ensure however that human psychology also won't. Generally, people have been whining about how little targets there are because of the small amount of planets. Take comfort here. A larger amount of planets won't change anything because the ration stays the same, you mean? How come, through the history, people have considered 'more planets, better', even though one CAN assume that 'most ratios remain same'.
At least Mzyxptlk offered data to support his reply, all you do is get on your high horse and come up with BS like that ^.

Mz, if your stats are true, which I don't doubt they are, you are suggesting that player increase == target increase but not an increase in attackers. This was essentially I think what Tietäjä was arguing with the above. Now to me this says one thing, and that is bashing. If the ratio stays the same but there are now more targets, there is unquestionably just an increase in in-actives to bash. If you like to bash then fair game but I don't see how this helps the playerbase in the longterm, as "bashees" just quit and bashers just complain there isn't enough off people to bash.


If my older posts are getting deleted for the record I want my original point here too:

If being in sleep mode means max benefit from the game (IE rewarded like an active players is rewarded except while asleep) then what motivates players to stay up and defend the players in their gal/alliance with incomings from the the aussies/americans. In turn why are they being rewarded for sleep mode? VAC mode has been in the game years and is essentially the same thing but for a far longer period, you don't get anything.


Quote:
Allowing a 'hard' sleep mode is of course relatively rough an approach. But it would probably cover a larger sphere of things people find uncomfortable Alternatively, you could expand the social side, by allowing an 'alliance/galaxy defense fleet slot' and assigning fleet to it, and then a minister/alliance officer could freely designate defensive missions to these fleets. This'd be slightly unorthodox since it'd essentially be OH DEAR GOD ACCOUNT SHARING IS IT, but it'd do something. It's, however, a different subject altogether.
Did you even read the post where I suggested something like this?
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 12:27   #70
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Re: Nighttime protection

Yes, this game is demanding when it comes to activity to achieve top ranks. But then again, so is every other game i play (where rankings are based on the sum of points achieved). The difference between this game and the other games i play is that this game is continuous, whereas i can 'choose' at which time i want to play the other games.

What you are effectively suggesting with this 'nighttime protection' is a game you can play at your own times/pace. Something that completely goes against the design of the continuous gameplay of PA. So effectively you are asking for a completely different game.

Another feature of the current gamedesign is that in order to get an award for activity(stealing roids), you punish someone else(losing roids). The 'easiest' way to award yourself for activity, is to 'punish' the ones who are less active than you are. As a result of this design, most action happens when the least people are active ('nighttime'). During the development of PA features (Queueing of con/res, prelaunch, run&hide) have been added to stop the 'punishment' of less active players.

You can argue these features haven't done enough to change the balance of the game, and suggest new features to help the balance of the game. However, before suggesting things like that you need to stop and think how it will affect the rest of the gamedesign. Imho, adding nighttime protection as suggested here (full lockdown of the interactions you can perform on a planet in nighttime protection) punishes those who are active too much (actives will be less able to get 'awards'(steal roids)).
'

IMO, nighttime protections should be found in ways that stop the 'punishment' of the less active. My suggestions to this would be:

Allow a player to set a timespan of 6-8 ticks a day where he 'insures' his roidloss
- Attacker still gains normal amount of roids (keeping the award for activity);
- Insurance pays back a certain amount of roids (limiting the 'punishment' for being inactive);
- Insurances can only be set once every 72-144 ticks (to allow for 'changing' biorhytms);
- Insurances cannot be set while one has incs (to prevent 'triggering' insurance at the sign of incs);
- Planetscans show 'insured' ticks (to allow wars between alliances where 'hurting' someones economy is a valid tactic);
- Later on in it's lifecycle it can be developed into other branches of the game to allow for more tactics with it (ie. race bonusses, resource cost to enable a 'contract', res/con).

Abolish XP as a scoring mechanism, and make it reward mechanism
- Allowing players to get bonusses (like roids/resources/respoints/conpoints) from their XP.
- Redesigning the xp system, to an 'activity' system. based more around achievements and activity bonusses, rather than attack success and bravery.

Redesigned/added ranking system with 'historic' data (with the introduction of our unified logon this can finally be done!)
- Average number of roids stolen per attack
- Average braveryfactor per stolen roid
- Average number of lands per round/month/week
- total kills/deaths/k-d-ratio
- etc


Anyhow i am sure a lot more great suggestions can be made to achieve a less 'punishing' environment. I am completely opposed to the mandatory sleepmode for everyone tho. You should look into ways to make it easier and more rewarding for the average joe to play, while not overly damaging the active playerbase that kept this game here.


well, that's just my 2 cents into the bag.

Greetings,
Influence


P.S. I think discussing a suggestion ignoring whatever effect it has on the metagame is just stupid (tunnelvision much?). The concerns raised by Zeyi are valid concerns imo, one-sided maybe, but still valid.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 12:36   #71
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
see i'd be surprised if a hardcore player didn't come up with the 'activity should be rewarded because there are people willing to break their lives for a game and i am one of them reward me please' -argument.
If the forums had "like" button, i wouldn't have to take all the extra effort of quoting this just to add a QTF
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 12:41   #72
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Allow a player to set a timespan of 6-8 ticks a day where he 'insures' his roidloss
This is a very good idea, for one simple reason.. asteroids. Less players obviously decreases the total # of roids in the game, with the current scenario people don't like to init roids to often as you get bashed one night you're quite likely to get bashed the next by another ally.

However "free" roids so to speak means despite the constant movement of roids, roided planets accumulate more asteroids allowing the entire uni to grow in size. This can really only be a benefit as the available income/value ingame is constantly raising.

If the player base returned to 100k over night, i'd say no as then there would be an abundance of roids perhaps, but such a situation is unlikely even with these changes going above 2000-3000 players is still a long-shot.


Quote:
P.S. I think discussing a suggestion ignoring whatever effect it has on the metagame is just stupid (tunnelvision much?). The concerns raised by Zeyi are valid concerns imo, one-sided maybe, but still valid.
Appreciate the comment. Although isn't everyone's opinion one-sided? Mine are in defence of the current active playerbase, a group of players that I'd imagine are quite important to the future of PA.



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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
If the forums had "like" button, i wouldn't have to take all the extra effort of quoting this just to add a QTF
The quote you are liking is absurd because every game I've ever played rewards and activity and nothing else. Maybe you're all playing these new wave facebook games where you click about 3 times a day and it posts something to your friends telling them how you got a new duck on your farm.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 13:10   #73
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Appreciate the comment. Although isn't everyone's opinion one-sided? Mine are in defence of the current active playerbase, a group of players that I'd imagine are quite important to the future of PA.
Generally speaking yes, as the goal of a discussion is to win over the other side into your camp. However, in order to do so, you have to succesfully dispose of their arguments, or incorporate their argument into your 'solution'. The problem with many ppl is the fact they can't deal with strong opposing arguments and have to resort to ridiculing, flaming and trolling, in order to hold their ground, like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
see i'd be surprised if a hardcore player didn't come up with the 'activity should be rewarded because there are people willing to break their lives for a game and i am one of them reward me please' -argument.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 13:47   #74
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
My apologies for being pedantic but people who assume too much in their arguments, gah. Then to claim it was trolling, oh my.. just please I've already asked why did you start the hostilities?
I did tell you that if you cannot understand it wasn't an assumption then I'll quit discussing it with you. Which I did, quoting myself on it to ensure you'd understand. Obviously, you did not.

Quote:
I already brought this up but apparently it is too meta. Of course he's then willing to discuss the impact of a larger amount of players in the game.
As the poster you quoted himself said, it's dangerously meta. Discussing metagame with ketchup economics arguments is not really interesting, sorry. I am willing to participate in such a discussion if it involves actual discussing, not throwing around cheap shots on how an increase in the price of the smaller bottle will also force the bigger bottle up, ceteris paribus. I'd prefer if we actually considered what we argue or at least acknowledged the caveats.

See below for a cheap shot argument with a big caveat.


Quote:
Now to me this says one thing, and that is bashing. If the ratio stays the same but there are now more targets, there is unquestionably just an increase in in-actives to bash.
I'm not sure if you played when the game had what you claim '200k players'. Bashing was fairly common back then, and it was reinforced by perverted cluster rules that in fact made it appear more like legit farming. However, it's perceived as the golden age of the game.


Quote:
If being in sleep mode means max benefit from the game (IE rewarded like an active players is rewarded except while asleep) then what motivates players to stay up and defend the players in their gal/alliance with incomings from the the aussies/americans. In turn why are they being rewarded for sleep mode? VAC mode has been in the game years and is essentially the same thing but for a far longer period, you don't get anything.
What you are ignoring here though is that if people hit sleep mode their attacks won't happen. If everyone but aussies and USA are (I am aware this is a very strict definition but I'm making it with the purpose of clearing a point) asleep and on sleep mode, they're not attacking the aussies and americans. This is what I mean with blowing ketchup arguments: creating a problem just for the sake of it without understanding that it might, at least partially, be self-resolving.

edit. mzyxptlk already pointed out a possibility of the sleep mode rewarding active players too, albeit in a less obvious fashion.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 13:54   #75
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
The quote you are liking is absurd because every game I've ever played rewards and activity and nothing else. Maybe you're all playing these new wave facebook games where you click about 3 times a day and it posts something to your friends telling them how you got a new duck on your farm.
Actually, these are the games i used to play (offline as well as online):

-Poker
-Settlers of Catan
-Starcraft

None of them reward activity for the sake of being active. They do reward, shockingly, people who use their brain. Agreed, they are not games that are played continuously and the social factor is almost non-existent.

Also, as for some of the points that have been brought up on this thread, my answers:

No player should be punished for not being able to stay awake 20 hrs a day for a period of 60 days. Nor should any player be overly rewarded for being able to do so.

A fixed 6 - 8 hrs nighttime protection against incomings would of course have the effect of less landings with the current game stats / mechanics. But the stats and mechanics can be changed as well.

Night time protection would have negative effects on non euro players, but the effect has much less impact on a non-euro when 80% of his alliance is awake at the time a raid gets launched at him.

The ratio of active / casual players has not remained constant. At some point even those uberactive people who used to be online 24/7 will finish school / finish uni / get a job / habe babies / get a life and not be able to play the game as it is right now.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:01   #76
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Did you even read the post where I suggested something like this?
No, I vaguely remember something about the game automatically sending fleets (which I find silly, because, it does beat the idea of the human player), and then some rant about allowing defense fleets to do sweep missions (like ages ago when the default defense lasted six ticks). What I'm saying is quintessentially account sharing. It's a method people have used forever, and still probably use. Some have used it to greater extent (not to name any specific factions), ie. sharing a stupid amount of 'support planets'.

edit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gio2k
None of them reward activity for the sake of being active. They do reward, shockingly, people who use their brain. Agreed, they are not games that are played continuously and the social factor is almost non-existent.
People can use hours, hours, and hours, on world of warcraft too. The better players will log, play four hours, have 2400 rating or the peak raid instance on heroic cleared, laugh a bit on ventrilo, and be off. The people who want 'activity' rewarded will at this point post on forums why the encounter is so difficult or why the system is forcing them to 1200 rating.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:08   #77
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
Actually, these are the games i used to play (offline as well as online):

-Poker
-Settlers of Catan
-Starcraft

None of them reward activity for the sake of being active. They do reward, shockingly, people who use their brain. Agreed, they are not games that are played continuously and the social factor is almost non-existent.
you are saying you can win at poker without betting? or win at catan not doing anything in your turn? or do good at starcraft without producing units?
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:11   #78
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Re: Nighttime protection

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you are saying you can win at poker without betting? or win at catan not doing anything in your turn? or do good at starcraft without producing units?
you really are a ****ing retard aren't you
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:19   #79
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
you really are a ****ing retard aren't you
well done rendering yourself a useless creature on this forum by resorting to another flame.

point was, every game requires activity in it's own special way, it's part of a game's design. Like said before, PA's design is based around continuous gameplay, whether you like it or not. (read my last post for more extensive reasoning on this)
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:24   #80
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
No player should be punished for not being able to stay awake 20 hrs a day for a period of 60 days. Nor should any player be overly rewarded for being able to do so.
hmmz weird, i am not awake 20hrs a day for that period (well ok i am but not to play PA), yet still manage to hold a top 200 planet. i got roided a few times yet had nothing to do with 'being punished for not being able to stay awake'. it was due to poor politics (on my personal account even!).
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:45   #81
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
point was, every game requires activity in it's own special way, it's part of a game's design. Like said before, PA's design is based around continuous gameplay, whether you like it or not. (read my last post for more extensive reasoning on this)

see now that you edited something sensible to your post

and in this thread we've already discussed whether such design has been one of the key points that has caused the playing population deteriorate into near nothingness, and given the possibility it might have contributed significantly, we've discussed options.

see?
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:56   #82
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
see now that you edited something sensible to your post

and in this thread we've already discussed whether such design has been one of the key points that has caused the playing population deteriorate into near nothingness, and given the possibility it might have contributed significantly, we've discussed options.

see?
And if you read the post mentioned in your quote i allready expressed i am against changing the nature of the game, and am contributing with other suggestions that i feel would fit better into the nature of this game.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 14:57   #83
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Re: Nighttime protection

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And if you read the post mentioned in your quote i allready expressed i am against changing the nature of the game, and am contributing with other suggestions that i feel would fit better into the nature of this game.
all of which change the nature of the game in some fashion.

or do you argue that this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
Abolish XP as a scoring mechanism, and make it reward mechanism
- Allowing players to get bonusses (like roids/resources/respoints/conpoints) from their XP.
- Redesigning the xp system, to an 'activity' system. based more around achievements and activity bonusses, rather than attack success and bravery.
would not dramatically change the nature of the game?
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 15:28   #84
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
you are saying you can win at poker without betting? or win at catan not doing anything in your turn? or do good at starcraft without producing units?
Are you saying you just need to bet on poker if you want to win?
Or that if you just keep on building stuff everytime in Catan you can win?
Or that you just need to keep producing units and gathering resources in Starcraft if you want to win?


... See, I can also miss the point completely
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 15:52   #85
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Re: Nighttime protection

not as dramatically as nighttime protection would. tbh that isn't the most thought through suggestion, and is mostly meant to make gaining xp more rewarding. Making XP something you can actually use to improve your planet other than just some dead score.

PA is a round-the-clock tick-based game that runs in rounds of 1177 ticks. The goal of the game is to grow value. You can grow value by 'planetincome(constructions)' and mainly roids. Usually the cheapest way to get roids is to steal them from other players.

As an additional scoring mechanism XP was added in PAX. However, when you look at the rankings each round the top 100 mostly exists of top 100 value players. (currently 86 out of the top 100 are also top 100 value). To me this means that XP isn't a solid scoring mechanism.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 16:08   #86
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Re: Nighttime protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
Are you saying you just need to bet on poker if you want to win?
Or that if you just keep on building stuff everytime in Catan you can win?
Or that you just need to keep producing units and gathering resources in Starcraft if you want to win?


... See, I can also miss the point completely
so your point was exactly? ohw w8 i remember,

"a game where you need to be awake at ungodly hours is flawed"

my reply: where did you get the idea that you NEED to be awake at ungodly hours? I know of a fair few (european) ppl who put in less than an hour a day into this game, yet still hold top 200 (and even top 100 planets).
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 16:15   #87
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
not as dramatically as nighttime protection would. tbh that isn't the most thought through suggestion, and is mostly meant to make gaining xp more rewarding. Making XP something you can actually use to improve your planet other than just some dead score.

PA is a round-the-clock tick-based game that runs in rounds of 1177 ticks. The goal of the game is to grow value. You can grow value by 'planetincome(constructions)' and mainly roids. Usually the cheapest way to get roids is to steal them from other players.

As an additional scoring mechanism XP was added in PAX. However, when you look at the rankings each round the top 100 mostly exists of top 100 value players. (currently 86 out of the top 100 are also top 100 value). To me this means that XP isn't a solid scoring mechanism.
The XP suggestion was also suggested by myself a loooooong time ago: See http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198148. It never got much attention, but i always thought it would make gameplay more enjoyable. Anyways, this is not the topic of this thread, and i would not want the thread to digress into other topics.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 16:24   #88
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
so your point was exactly? ohw w8 i remember,

"a game where you need to be awake at ungodly hours is flawed"

my reply: where did you get the idea that you NEED to be awake at ungodly hours? I know of a fair few (european) ppl who put in less than an hour a day into this game, yet still hold top 200 (and even top 100 planets).
Where? Maybe from the fact that there are less and less players around? Maybe from the fact that most other people agree that you need to be active during the night if you want to be successful at this game? Maybe because for every guy you can point to me that keep a top200 planet by putting less than an hour into this game (though i would gladly call that bluff) i can point you 9 who can't.

But let's pretend that your proposition that "You can have a top 200 planet by only playing 1 hr a day" is true: If it were so, then introducing nighttime protection would surely have no effect, and i don't understand what you are against in that case.

Editted: wording
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 17:47   #89
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Re: Nighttime protection

Gio2k, Influence is actually correct I think your missing your own point.

The games you used are terrible examples you need persistent game worlds for your examples otherwise it defeats the purpose.

So for example not playing in an MMORPG for extended amounts of time per day means you wont attain high XP ranks. Take Jagex's Runescape - the top highscoring players are probably playing 16-20 hours a day easily. I imagine it's the same with WoW and any other MMORPG - Darkfall, Mortal online, etc etc.

The point is MMORPG is still a totally different genre to PA. Poker, starcraft etc you play a game for an hour or two then its over.

If you think you can compare PA to games like that you are seriously as I said earlier playing the wrong game.

EDIT: Forgot to say, and even on the games you mentioned level you have to be playing from them to be benefiting from them. When you're not playing nothing is happening!
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 18:38   #90
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Re: Nighttime protection

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I imagine it's the same with WoW and any other MMORPG
no it's not, the top scoring people play maybe 10-20 hours a week.
the people who can't play but wan't high ratings will spam infinitely and still get nowhere.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 18:40   #91
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
no it's not, the top scoring people play maybe 10-20 hours a week.
the people who can't play but wan't high ratings will spam infinitely and still get nowhere.
Your idiotic posts are getting annoying now. Stop spewing these nonsense statements you assume to be facts without providing some kind of support for them.

I'm not asking for straight fact even, just examples.

EDIT: It's not even hard, look: http://runetracker.org/index

Take any top XP gainer and it's not too difficult to see the hours they put in is ridiculous.

Also your 2nd statement is irrelevant to planetarion. Strategy games there is no grinding or "spamming" at all.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 18:46   #92
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Your idiotic posts are getting annoying now. Stop spewing these nonsense statements you assume to be facts without providing some kind of support for them.
i wasn't discussing runescape.
go post a question about time spent online on arenajunkies or so and you'll get your answer.
the best players will not always be equal to the players that spend most time.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 18:49   #93
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Re: Nighttime protection

No, i wanted you to provide evidence to your claims that it's not the same for WoW, and other MMORPGs.

Why would I want you to provide evidence for my claims? Seriously, you really don't understand much do you?
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 18:50   #94
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Re: Nighttime protection

oh yes, and the decisive difference still is that world of warcraft/insert MMORPG players can generally define the periods of time they spend in their game. you cannot in planetarion. this can be a bit of a problem in terms of attracting large numbers of players. i am aware that a college kid from preston may have all the time at his hands but, frankly, if you want to cater for a few nerds, then you're doing it well right now and nothing needs to change.

if you want more players, you might have to consider options. with more players, i'd still refer to the previous arguments on why more players in a game like planetarion is good, and probably, people would enjoy watching things happen on a busy day instead of a busy night. at least more people could at least follow it better, or participate better.

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No, i wanted you to provide evidence to your claims that it's not the same for WoW, and other MMORPGs.
I played world of warcraft at above 2,500 rating and it didn't take me more than a few hours a week since anything beyond that would've been not-very-purposeful. However, had i wanted shiny glittery titles on my character, I could've well spent hundreds of hours to it but it'd had zero impact on my ladder ranking.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 19:13   #95
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Re: Nighttime protection

You argue on the basis adding this feature will bring players to the game, and you are sadly mistook.

Planetarion lost players because browser games are dying and then because of the activity requirement. More activity has been needed since the loss of thousands of players greatly reduces inactive or rarely active targets for bashing. Now that it's so small greater activity still is needed as likely hood of being hit is so great and because their isn't large amounts of actives, large amounts of semi actives and large amounts of in actives like other more popular online games. So you cannot fit into a band of players, in PA you play against the active or you don't play. This is due to the demise of text-based browser games and lack of development.

By the way I'm not a college kid, but those college kids you speak of are the players that left for games with graphics. Those players you all miss so so much.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 20:07   #96
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
You argue on the basis adding this feature will bring players to the game, and you are sadly mistook.
Okay. So you believe attempts to make the game less reliant on constant activity can't help increase the amount of players.

You proceed to claim that I am mistaken (I am mistook? what does that even mean - more below). Based on what arguments do you make this claim?

However.

Quote:
Planetarion lost players because browser games are dying and then because of the activity requirement. More activity has been needed since the loss of thousands of players greatly reduces inactive or rarely active targets for bashing. Now that it's so small greater activity still is needed as likely hood of being hit is so great and because their isn't large amounts of actives, large amounts of semi actives and large amounts of in actives like other more popular online games. So you cannot fit into a band of players, in PA you play against the active or you don't play. This is due to the demise of text-based browser games and lack of development.
Your view also is that the activity requirements of this game are ultimately what's causing it's demise.

Interesting view.

Curious is the human mind.

Since you had an issue with my grammar in my non-native language, I'd also like to point out that it's 'likelihood'. Not 'likely hood'. You are most welcome. English is probably your native so it's better if you know it well, I can always afford to slip!
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 20:12   #97
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Okay. So you believe attempts to make the game less reliant on constant activity can't help increase the amount of players.
I've never argued this, rendered the rest of your post irrelevant.

You're getting really mad now aren't you? Hahaha.
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Unread 21 Jul 2011, 20:25   #98
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Re: Nighttime protection

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I've never argued this, rendered the rest of your post irrelevant.

You're getting really mad now aren't you? Hahaha.
No I mean, I'm just getting my tomorrow's dose or a moron on the go.
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Unread 22 Jul 2011, 07:34   #99
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Mz, if your stats are true, which I don't doubt they are, you are suggesting that player increase == target increase but not an increase in attackers. This was essentially I think what Tietäjä was arguing with the above. Now to me this says one thing, and that is bashing. If the ratio stays the same but there are now more targets, there is unquestionably just an increase in in-actives to bash. If you like to bash then fair game but I don't see how this helps the playerbase in the longterm, as "bashees" just quit and bashers just complain there isn't enough off people to bash.
The more targets there are to 'bash', the less each target gets bashed. I've said this in other places before, so I won't go into too much detail, but bashing in and of itself is not that big a problem: if you lose some roids once a week, hey, whatever. It only becomes a problem when initing 3 roids too many is enough to give you a night of incs. Like now.

So no, more targets does not mean more bashing. It means the opposite of that.

By the way, might I ask why you don't doubt my stats, but do doubt Keiz'?
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Unread 22 Jul 2011, 10:48   #100
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Re: Nighttime protection

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The more targets there are to 'bash', the less each target gets bashed. I've said this in other places before, so I won't go into too much detail, but bashing in and of itself is not that big a problem: if you lose some roids once a week, hey, whatever. It only becomes a problem when initing 3 roids too many is enough to give you a night of incs. Like now.

So no, more targets does not mean more bashing. It means the opposite of that.

By the way, might I ask why you don't doubt my stats, but do doubt Keiz'?
Some of these so called "inactives" are actually people who gave the game a try, and quit the game after one too many times after they went to sleep and got up next day to find that their roids and ships were gone. Many of these people would also enjoy the game if they could be part of an alliance. But let's be real, because of the game mechanics, every decent alliance asks you the same question in order to accept you as member: "Are you willing to come online at nights if called / sms'd?". For most normal people, the answer is "not really, no", which leaves them allianceless at the very least, and exiled around to boot. And it's the interactions with your galaxy / alliance that make this game enjoyable, not the mere roiding / getting fat.
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