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4 Aug 2010, 23:03
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#51
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You've Seen The Light
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,152
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Re: Hi from a Jagex fansite
Quote:
Originally Posted by neroon
err wtf Light.. we were arguing that removing PL will reward the more active ppl (read: the ppl that CAN b around during nights, weather they are ppl from timezones allowing em to do it easily or euros that keep emselves awake for the time needed is not important here atm).. activity in this case, by me, was measured in the ability to b around during euro night to launch live attacks around 3-4 gmt.. and yes it should b rewarded imo.. the case that i want to make here now.. is that THE ATTACKS SHOULD b more spread out when we remove PL, due to not everyone (and yes i know theres a big portion of euro ppl that are not willing to get up around 03:00 game time) being able to attack together during night time.. so more TPs and such are being made, making em launch either earlier than later..
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Why is being around during the nights rewarding activity? Activity is time online, someone from europe who spends 12hours playing PA during the day should not be rewarded? but if someone america spends 12hours playing PA during the day should be rewarded? Lets face reality here, you're not rewarding activity, you're rewarded the time zone certain people live in.
Yes the attacks will be more spread out but the decent alliances will still be launching at the most efficient time while everyone else has to pander to what they can get. Where you will be making the 'skill' gap even bigger between players.
Removing prelaunch wont suddenly make daytime attacks successful, as thats when theres most defence available.
PA should be trying to make itself less dependant on what time you play but rather on how much you play.
Quote:
also why should less hardcore alliances launch earlier now Light? they could also launch later, after hardcore alliances have already launched, therefore also making the hardcore alliance`s def pools smaller (i know the def pool of ASS and Apprime cant b compared; and NO DISRISPECT for mentioning those 2 alliances please)
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as night time is generally the most efficient time to launch, you launch as late as possible. If you launch your attacks at 9am, you get involved with people waking up to go to work etc. At the moment most attacks i see at 9am are covered instantly and thats with the everyone launching at 5am routine.
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i know removing PL is a huge step either forward or backwards and is most prolly not gonna happen, however i liked the idea someone pointed out earlier, about making it maybe +2 or +3 for PL the most.. as Shev told, why should someone just prelaunch an att to someone that jgps himself/herself and stays up late or wakes up earlier in the morning to organize def as he/she cares about the rankings and the outcome of the round?
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I dont know the solution but you shouldnt be rewarded for the timezone you live in. PA should reward for your activity, regardless of when that time is in a particular timezone.
Someone who is online 12hours a day should be rewarded more than someone who is online 2hour a day.. the only difference being one lives in europe the other in say australia where by the 2 hour person living in australia is at a huge advantage.
I see myself as Active, im online everyday and for at least 3-6 hours maybe more. Yet, due to me not being able to stay up late, i cant play PA properly and have to be a 'support' planet every round. No game should force its users to wake up at 4am every night in order to play it. People keep making suggestions to make PA better but they keep avoiding that huge elephant in the room, you will struggle to find a substancial increase in new players when you constantly enforce this time requirement on them. Sure, you can reward activity but you must reward activity and not time of activity.
Most online games grasp this concept now, from Astro-Empires to Farmville.. they all reward activity in there own ways but they allow you to pick how active and what hours you want to be active. Weither its a 10minutes a day or 12hours.
__________________
First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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4 Aug 2010, 23:10
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Light, you put it more eloquantly and with more understanding that I ever could, I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts there
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4 Aug 2010, 23:28
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#53
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ToF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 607
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
i think there is a flip side to this. why should activity be rewarded? just cos you can be online alot does not necessarily mean you have any ability to play this game well.
example, last round i was online for obscene amounts of time. like 10 hours would be a quiet day and yet my planet sucked massively. my huge amount of online hours did not convert to a good planet.
so, my point is, reward skill not activity.
__________________
[19:10] <coffee-> dont worry about Reincarnate he is an angry man
R1 - 9 none | R10.5 - 13 [ToF] | R14 [Reunion] | R15-17 [Subh] | R18 - 36 PA vacation | R37 [Evo] | R38 [NFI] | R39 & 40 [ToF] | R41 [Omega] | R42 - 47 [ToF][HC]
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4 Aug 2010, 23:33
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
but Light, thats what we would like to see.. ppl gettin rewarded for their activity.. if someone is around 12hs a day and the attacks (together with that the defence ofc as well) are spread out.. game has new dynamics, more attacks and raids happening on other times that we have em today (hopefully.. as this is just a prediction, cant know for sure until it actually takes place)
euro ppl that are actually mostly online during "day" time have more to offer, more things to do, more fun to join in.. activity will b awarded, either ure an US player or euro
PS: im gettin a bit too drunk for this atm, sry.. will chat with u in IRC
__________________
VISION FTW
THIS IS ULTORES
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4 Aug 2010, 23:35
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Rein, what skill are we talking about if ur not acitve enough to claim the actual skill ?
skill comes with activness.. thats nothing new..
train hard (read: be active) and u become good!
__________________
VISION FTW
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4 Aug 2010, 23:35
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
reincarnate is right. rewarding activity is what havoc is for... see ya in #horde at the end of round 38! reincarnate.... if we can steal all of some1s ships and then sign him up to horde again so we can all rip him to his face i will be pleasantly amused. hi carjay if ur reading this |
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4 Aug 2010, 23:36
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
PS: no idea why u ended in low ranks even if u were very active.. im sorry but i just dont know what happened with u and ure gal last round :S (could understand if ure gal was under attack over each day or sth. ofc)
__________________
VISION FTW
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4 Aug 2010, 23:37
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
DarkHeart im sorry, no offence, but ure last post was very very ridiculos.. either ure also gettin too drunk or what?
__________________
VISION FTW
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4 Aug 2010, 23:39
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#59
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
paisley the time anomalies would apply to both offense and defense. Just a way of speeding up the game during the hours people are awake to increase enjoyment. I like the idea couple with redirect missions so you could switch targs in the same gal if u have defence at a 1 tick penaly, to aid a battle which might be covered that you can swing in favour of the attack, but also then allowing the defence a tick to switch it up and try to recover the calc on the new target.
As to the removal of the tech trees for scanning.. i never found a problem with the old way of buying your scans in quantities and using them at your own disposal.. dunno why they ever changed that maybe som1 could advise me... the current system just increases the need for scan planets and detracts from the number of 'active' players.
p.s. where in Paisley? I lived in the Swan hotel opposite Ibrox for 3 months. That was an experience
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Personally I am not for this idea
Just to be crystal on the mechanics of your idea... For example
Say you launch a de fleet at co-ords 1:2:1 eta 9 at base / goes red at eta 8 (full eta tech been done) you can switch to say 1:2:2 between eta 5-8 and that then renders the ally def useless to 1:2:1 (as if the attack recalled on 1:2:1 from a jgp scan point of view)
If you switch at eta 5 from 1:2:1 it then becomes eta 6 at 1:2:2 ?
Means that 1:2:2 can muster ingal defense only with the current game mechanics.
If the attack is switched at eta 1-3 from 1:2:1 to 1:2:2 it means that 1:2:2 can't muster any defense.
Also is the switch a one off or can it be done x number of times.
Just wondering if you could elaborate a bit more detail please if it isn't the case. Also provide a working example.
I was orginally from foxbar but now stay in the west end.
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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4 Aug 2010, 23:40
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
nah was jsut taking the piss neroon, had a fun havoc with reincarnate end of the round just gone, was an in joke
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4 Aug 2010, 23:41
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#61
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ToF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 607
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
neroon my point is rewarding activity just for the sake of it is a terribad idea. just because someone has nothing to do but be online on PA does not mean they should be rewarded.
skill combined with activity should be rewarded.
__________________
[19:10] <coffee-> dont worry about Reincarnate he is an angry man
R1 - 9 none | R10.5 - 13 [ToF] | R14 [Reunion] | R15-17 [Subh] | R18 - 36 PA vacation | R37 [Evo] | R38 [NFI] | R39 & 40 [ToF] | R41 [Omega] | R42 - 47 [ToF][HC]
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4 Aug 2010, 23:49
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Paisley i was considering it from a gal raid persepctive, so if 6 waves are launched, so for example if an attack on 1:2:1 is eta 3 and covered the attack could redirect to join the attack on 1:2:2 and join it at eta 4. You are correct the in gal defence is irrelevant coz no1 can reach eta 4 launching a new fleet.
However if the attack that was originally eta3 and switched to eta 4 was originally wave1, it would then become landing on wave 3 (due tot he 1 tick penalty for switching). Though the gal cant launch fresh fleets at eta 4 (coz obviously the min in gal time is eta5) the various alliance and galaxy fleets that were initially covering wave 1 at eta3 could switch up and adjust to cover wave 3 at eta 4
edit - purely a suggestiona imed at giving people more stuff to do during the day. people better than me can argue whtehr that would lead to more roid swapping or not and whether that is a good or bad thing
Last edited by DarkHeart; 4 Aug 2010 at 23:55.
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4 Aug 2010, 23:56
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
yes rein skill and activity should b awarded together.. however my point was that skill comes with activity.. as clearly if ure not active enough u wouldnt have the skill that is needed aight ?
ps: im fairly sure that a BIG portion of ure online time also went into keeping evolution going after emos quited, which also says alot to ppl that are aware of the time that is needed to run an alliance
over and out, bed time!
__________________
VISION FTW
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5 Aug 2010, 00:12
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
a working example as requested. the red planets are evil (the attackers) the blue planets are the various in gal and alliance defenders who have already launched
the black lines are the original travel vectors of the enemy
the blue lines are the orgiinal travel vectors of the friends
the ref line are the redirected travel vectors of the enemy
the gold lines are the redirected travel vectors of the friends
http://img20.imageshack.us/f/thepret...rsofmymin.jpg/
clearly, and undeniably, with this example you cna see that the travel limitation of alliance defence and gal defense is irrelevant, it is a reassignment of fleets already flying that will determine the various outcomes
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and to clarify neroon. yes i have been drinking
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5 Aug 2010, 00:21
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#65
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Or you mean alliance eta -1 and cluster eta -1 are cumulative?
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I dunno, didn't really think about that. Maybe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
Or would the impetus in attacking at night remain and force the ppl who cant attack at night away from the game.
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No. A game can't force you to do anything, and the same applies to people. You can choose to attack at night, if that's what you want to do, but it's always a choice you and you alone can make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate
i think there is a flip side to this. why should activity be rewarded? just cos you can be online alot does not necessarily mean you have any ability to play this game well.
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Activity is not rewarded that much. Your level of activity can be seen as an upper ceiling to how well you can do. If you're around once a day, it's impossible to do well: you have a very low ceiling, no matter how skilled you are. On the other hand, if you're around 12 hours a day, you have a high ceiling. You can do very well, but you can also suck magnificently. I'm a good example of such a player: I'm around a lot, but that does not usually translate into a good rank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Yes the attacks will be more spread out but the decent alliances will still be launching at the most efficient time while everyone else has to pander to what they can get. Where you will be making the 'skill' gap even bigger between players.
Removing prelaunch wont suddenly make daytime attacks successful, as thats when theres most defence available.
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To quote myself, seeing as you didn't counter my line of reasoning:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Is it that there's about 50-100 people would attack at night even without prelaunch? That's nothing new, they already attack at night. The only difference is that they wouldn't get flakked by hundreds of less hardcore players who only attack at night because they can prelaunch. The amount of available nighttime defence wouldn't change if we removed prelaunch (it might even increase a little), but the amount of fleets launched would reduce. If they launched out of sync with the rest of the player base, these 50-100 people would actually have a lower chance of capping roids than they do now.
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__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Aug 2010 at 00:34.
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5 Aug 2010, 00:32
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
i agree to an extent mz, we all have personal choice. but.. often a personal choice / decision is required a sa consequence of the deciisions / actions of others
if you remove pl, and the alliances enfoce the late late ticks routine. Then whilst you could choose to not run with those alliances, does it make sense to stay in the game? or go to a different game which suits your needs
As a comparison imagine going to Pizza hut and asking for a 12 inch meat feast. If the cashier said im sorry sir, we dont sell pizza anymore, just pigeon pies' would you order the pigeon pie, or go get a dominoes?
So yah, if you removed pl, it all depends on how the alliances react with regard to launch ticks, which though there is arguements that they would shift to more suitable hours, history suggests they wouldnt, i still havent found a valid arguement as to why prelaunch was introduced if it wasnt for the need to faciliate a way for more players needing an easier way to launch at night since thats the way the game dynamic shifted (the dynamic being having to launch late at night)
:/
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5 Aug 2010, 00:35
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#67
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Where are these magical alliances you speak of that could survive while their members refuse to attack at night? I don't believe any exist any more.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Aug 2010, 00:46
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Maybe you are right. maybe pl is a defunct tool of a bygone age, and the problem no longer exists that it was created to solve. Personally i hope you are right, because if pl was removed and the game did not shift to become active during the daytime then i would stop playing. Which is why this came about, a simple question asking me (as i narcissistically assume to be me as a representative of those who arent so addicted they play every round regardless) wht would keep me playing.
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5 Aug 2010, 00:50
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#69
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ToF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 607
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
people would still launch at the same time. and those alliances able to get a group of people together willing to launch 3am gametime would jsut totally dominate.
but this is all moot anyway as pl will be with us foreva.
__________________
[19:10] <coffee-> dont worry about Reincarnate he is an angry man
R1 - 9 none | R10.5 - 13 [ToF] | R14 [Reunion] | R15-17 [Subh] | R18 - 36 PA vacation | R37 [Evo] | R38 [NFI] | R39 & 40 [ToF] | R41 [Omega] | R42 - 47 [ToF][HC]
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5 Aug 2010, 00:57
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#70
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The BOFH
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 463
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
It should be tested for a round. I'm curious as to what would actually happen with it - we can all guess what players will possibly do, but testing it to see the consequences would be useful.
Part of me says that whilst everyone is arguing about prelaunching at nighttime activity, it might be more useful to provide more game features to encourage people to do stuff during the daytime. Something other than covert operations, which is something which not everyone particularly likes and a path which not all planets go for.
The game needs to evolve to deal with the players of today. You can't expect regular players to sacrifice their sleep to deal with attacking or defence. It would be like a modern MMORPG trying to force players to go through a massive grindfest - most (sane) players would just reject it today.
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5 Aug 2010, 01:13
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 673
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
no thx, I'd like to keep PL, most players can't be that active anymore nowadays, taking PL away would see even more people quit the game.
__________________
At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."
If life hands you lemons, drink more tequila
After the game is over the king and the pawn end up in the same box
HA - asc -rdm-asc-VR- #ODDR - APP
Finally retired
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5 Aug 2010, 07:31
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#72
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You've Seen The Light
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,152
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Is it that there's about 50-100 people would attack at night even without prelaunch? That's nothing new, they already attack at night. The only difference is that they wouldn't get flakked by hundreds of less hardcore players who only attack at night because they can prelaunch. The amount of available nighttime defence wouldn't change if we removed prelaunch (it might even increase a little), but the amount of fleets launched would reduce. If they launched out of sync with the rest of the player base, these 50-100 people would actually have a lower chance of capping roids than they do now.
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but the amount of daytime defence would remain the same.. The most efficient time to launch will always be in the middle of the night, due to that being when the def pool is the most likely to be the smallest. So the fact remains, that launching at the middle of the night would be an advantage over those alliances which choose to launch at different times.
__________________
First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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5 Aug 2010, 08:29
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#73
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LDK
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 2,220
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
but the amount of daytime defence would remain the same.. The most efficient time to launch will always be in the middle of the night, due to that being when the def pool is the most likely to be the smallest. So the fact remains, that launching at the middle of the night would be an advantage over those alliances which choose to launch at different times.
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ofc not. people have idle fleets cause they didnt get up in the middle of the night to defend. If people dont have PL, they will launch attacks earlier which will probably lead to less idle fleets during the day cause people who go to bed at 01-02:xx can now send defence BEFORE going to bed.
For regular galraids I spose it will be more effective with late launches, but if you hit an alliance, it wont matter at all. Also, u need to take into consideration that an alliance which sends middle of the night, will fail badly if only a couple actually bother to get up and send.
Incs would start at 23:00 and go on till late morning. = more fun
__________________
[Omen]
Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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5 Aug 2010, 08:31
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#74
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LDK
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 2,220
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I dunno, didn't really think about that. Maybe?
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Just make fighters eta 7 for alliance / cluster defence. Co eta 8, fr/de eta 9and cr/bs eta 10.
No fi pods. like good ol days!
__________________
[Omen]
Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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5 Aug 2010, 09:17
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#75
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
but the amount of daytime defence would remain the same.. The most efficient time to launch will always be in the middle of the night, due to that being when the def pool is the most likely to be the smallest. So the fact remains, that launching at the middle of the night would be an advantage over those alliances which choose to launch at different times.
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You still didn't get my argument, so here's a summary: fewer attacking fleets + same number of def fleets = lower chance of landing.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Aug 2010, 11:25
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#76
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You've Seen The Light
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,152
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You still didn't get my argument, so here's a summary: fewer attacking fleets + same number of def fleets = lower chance of landing.
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I understand that..well i dont really... Why would there be the same number of def fleets if theres less night time attacking going on? If only 2 allys are launching at night still, why would every who bothers to wake up now, still wake up to launch def at night?
but lets fly with it..
Attacking at night = fewer attacking fleets + same number of def fleets = lower chance of landing.
Attacking during the day = more attacking fleets + same number of def fleets now = lower chance of landing during the day as if you were to attack at night.
So attacking at night still has the huge advantage, People dont attack at night as thats when other alliances do... in that case, we could of just all agree'd to hit each other at a more respectable hour. We attack then, as thats when its most efficient and it will still be most efficient to do it then with no prelaunch option.
__________________
First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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5 Aug 2010, 11:32
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeimdallR
no thx, I'd like to keep PL, most players can't be that active anymore nowadays, taking PL away would see even more people quit the game.
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dude, whats the matter with u?
IF THEY REMOVE PL THEN U ADAPT YOUR ALLIANCE TO THE NEW RULES WITH EITHER MAKING ALLIANCE RAIDS EARLIER OR LATER OR ON DIFFERENT TIMES FOR DIFFERENT GROUPS
what activeness are u talking about :P ? if ure members are not active during 3-5 game time and come around 6-7 game time then u make raids that time aight?
THIS removed feature might actually even lead to less idle players imo, as atm its like if someone cant launch during night or CBA to b around enough time for the TP then they just have their 3 fleets at base and this combined with a little less activeness than hardcore players means theres no fleet movements at all that day most prolly..
*PL gets removed
*alliances adapt to the abilities of their members (check the suitable launch times and act accordingly)
*the launches happen when most of the alliance is around = more fleets get launched
*game overall goes around the clock (at least a tad more)
also i dont get it.. so what if ure gonna have a bit harder time to defend against the ppl that launch during euro night? i mean, the games that ive been checking out, that have been somewhat realtime games, all have the same thing going on.. u go to bed, set ure fleets or whatever to hide and when u login in the morning u see uve been battered.. i just think that pa-ppl are spoiled and start to work against anything that seems to make things a bit harder for emselves (or maybe not even harder but diffrent).. ure talking about game changes, but u dont even wanna give a try for such a smallish change :P
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5 Aug 2010, 11:38
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
I understand that..well i dont really... Why would there be the same number of def fleets if theres less night time attacking going on? If only 2 allys are launching at night still, why would every who bothers to wake up now, still wake up to launch def at night?
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the ones bothering to wake up now will wake up when PL is moved as well, since they clearly care enought to wake up during the night to launch their attack fleet.. and with that they can send out the defence as well, as theyve done so far..
however the ppl that do not bother to wake up atm and just set prelaunch attack fleet, will not wake up in the middle of the night to offer defence (AS THEY HAVENT DONE IT SO FAR EITHER THEN THIS IS NOT A LOSS REALLY).. however they now most probably will have a chance to offer their ships for the morning raids (if their alliance is doing such things) and hopefully even get a few more fleets flying than there has been before :!
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VISION FTW
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5 Aug 2010, 12:30
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#79
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
I understand that..well i dont really... Why would there be the same number of def fleets if theres less night time attacking going on? If only 2 allys are launching at night still, why would every who bothers to wake up now, still wake up to launch def at night?
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I don't think you actually understand what you're saying. Let me reply with a question: why would fewer people be around to launch defence at night if prelaunch attacks were removed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Attacking during the day = more attacking fleets + same number of def fleets now = lower chance of landing during the day as if you were to attack at night.
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There are two mechanisms that allow people to land attacks:
1) draining all defence fleets
2) attacking at such a time that there is no one around to defend
When you attack during the (European) night, mechanism 2 is the dominant one. It's not that alliances like ODDR or ASS don't have ships home to cover incomings at 3:00, it's just that there's no one around to send them.
When you attack during the day, mechanism 1 becomes much more important, because most people will be around to defend.
According to an earlier post of yours, you wanted to reduce the impact time zones have. By removing prelaunch, you reduce the importance of time zones by making sure that there's always a perfect balance between number of attackers and number of defenders. People will only get roided if the attackers are actually stronger than the defenders, and not just because the defenders were asleep.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Aug 2010, 13:21
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#80
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Excuse me for jumping in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I don't think you actually understand what you're saying. Let me reply with a question: why would fewer people be around to launch defence at night if prelaunch attacks were removed?
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This may be slightly provocative, but I'd dare to venture that removing prelaunch would result in more people to launch defense at night since there is a part of the population that would log in to launch if prelaunch wasn't available.
Whether this is a desireable effect or not is a different a story.
Quote:
People will only get roided if the attackers are actually stronger than the defenders, and not just because the defenders were asleep.
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Isn't this... Good? Is it? Do we actually want to game to put a lot of weight on to the time part of the function? How could we add more weight to the strategy part of the mechanism which seems irrelevant?
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5 Aug 2010, 14:36
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#81
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
This may be slightly provocative, but I'd dare to venture that removing prelaunch would result in more people to launch defense at night since there is a part of the population that would log in to launch if prelaunch wasn't available.
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I hinted at this in earlier posts (though it got snowed under a bit) and I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Isn't this... Good? Is it? Do we actually want to game to put a lot of weight on to the time part of the function? How could we add more weight to the strategy part of the mechanism which seems irrelevant?
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At the very least I don't think it's bad. Also, I don't think it puts any undue requirements on players that aren't already there. In fact, it removes at least one: you would not longer have to get up at ungodly hours to defend your planet against the fleets of people who are asleep.
As for strategy... PA has never been a game in which you could just tell your members to launch at will and expect to succeed. Instead of sending a few fleets at a time, you coordinate with your allies and launch everything you have at the same time in the hope that they will run out of defence before you run out of attackers. I don't think prelaunch has a lot of impact on that mechanic. Removing it will just shift the time at which you can use fleets most efficiently from 03:00 to 23:00.
It'll be harder to gain roids at 23:00 without prelaunch than it is to gain them at 03:00 with prelaunch, but it'll be easier to hold onto them, too. If that's undisireable (it might be, I don't know), there are other mechanisms to compensate for that (say, the stats).
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Aug 2010 at 14:47.
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5 Aug 2010, 16:18
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#82
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Moo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 143
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
I can appreciate the arguments for removing PL. Currently, the system is set up so that the fewest number of people are playing when the attacks go, which leaves people who enjoy their sleep out of the action. But, 1 or 2 hours of PL would still allow some night raiding, and make it easier to launch fighters and get a full night of sleep before they land. It also allows you to wake up once and launch several waves instead of waking up every hour, if you're setting an alarm.
Let's face it, PA is an adult's game. I'm 24 and I often find I'm nearly the youngest person on IRC. So there needs to be some accommodation for those with jobs, kids, angry wives etc. who just can't schedule their lives around PA.
Last edited by Cowch; 5 Aug 2010 at 19:28.
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5 Aug 2010, 17:48
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
uve hit the nail on the head there Cowch. if they removed pl and attacks did shift to 23:00 GMT, i'd have to leave the pub before closing time to live launch. and this is also unacceptable!
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5 Aug 2010, 18:24
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
im wondering.. why do u guys think the attacks will b shifted to earlier side of the night? my logic says it should be the opposite tbh.. launching later due to hoping for a smaller defpool due to the tgt alliances already having their fleets out attacking and defending
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VISION FTW
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5 Aug 2010, 18:26
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#85
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Because would you wake up for PA?
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Aug 2010, 18:50
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 383
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
neroon im not sure what a tgt alliance is but what makes u think they would already be out and attacking overnight given that uve already identified there might be a smaller defpool come the morning wouldnt they also identify that and wait to attack till morning?
hey at this rate no1 is gonna launch waiting for every1 else to launch!
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5 Aug 2010, 19:05
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
erm.. ok 1 final try
u remove prelaunch
ppl that are willing to wake up for pa to launch at night and ppl in those timezones still launch around 03 game time
ppl that aint in such timezones and cba to wake up at night launch in the morning to morning raids for instance
so yea, id say there would b attacks later instead of earlier to the 03:00 game time, which ive taken as the usual launching time in planetarion today
that was my point.. ppl launching 00:00 instead of doing so in the morning should suffer a bit in launching into bigger defpools than they would while launching in the morning around 05:00 game time for instance..
dont know if it makes any sense, sorry if it dosent mates :s
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VISION FTW
THIS IS ULTORES
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5 Aug 2010, 22:01
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#88
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Well, I for one am glad that no one is actually responding to my points. That sure is helpful.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Aug 2010, 22:09
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#89
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LDK
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 2,220
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Well, I for one am glad that no one is actually responding to my points. That sure is helpful.
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I will wake up for PA or probably still be awake when its the best time to launch.
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[Omen]
Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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5 Aug 2010, 22:17
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 734
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
mz i will prolly wake up for launching an attack during night from time to time, however id deffo have a great deal of my launches in the morning as well if i know i have a hard day coming and cant ruin my sleep
__________________
VISION FTW
THIS IS ULTORES
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6 Aug 2010, 02:50
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#91
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 30
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Give a max eta of say... 10 hours. So fi/co can have a bigger prelaunch and cr/bs can have none, but it means people with fi/co can actually sleep a full nights sleep instead of needing to get up early or crash :P Thats my bigger concern if we removed it.
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6 Aug 2010, 05:04
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#92
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Moo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 143
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
I get that mz is saying alliances would completely shift to launching during day time. That would be positive. But without at least some PL, I'm not sure how I would play.
I can launch before I go to bed, but I won't be able to set an alarm to wake up anymore. I can launch when I wake up, but I can't check the land while I'm at work. I could launch when I get home from work, but I'll be asleep around land time. I don't need 5 hours of PL, but 1 or 2 would make life easier.
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6 Aug 2010, 08:05
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#93
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idle
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 968
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
prelaunching seperates the men from the boys
anything rewarding activity has been removed, so i dont wonder about that there is still prelaunches
my biggest contra pl is that 80% of the universe is launching at times when 80% of the universe is sleeping, so 20% have to arrange the defence, have to wake up everyone else
also whats worse ? to wake up at 3 am to launch a fleet, or to get called/smséd 3-5 times from 3 am to 6 am
i regard the second thing worse, i am sick of recieving phonecalls through all night, stating that my fleet is allready out
yes there is tools to see which fleets are at base and which doesnt, but those tools dont autodetect where your fleets are, you have to parse your mission page somewhere or leave a note with a bot and yet prolly still get called, cause dc´s are too lazy to check, or dont trust the setting to be up to date
so instead of allowing someone a nights sleep which prelaunching intended to do, you dissallow it and make it mandatory to be awake at odd times in order to survive
remove attack prelaunch as we know it (allow 1-2 ticks at max)
keep prelaunch for defence though
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m0rph3us formerly known as Bugz
"It´s not about how hard u hit, its about how hard u can get hit and still keep moving forward! How much u can take and still move forward!"
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6 Aug 2010, 10:31
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#94
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You've Seen The Light
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,152
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US
prelaunching seperates the men from the boys
anything rewarding activity has been removed, so i dont wonder about that there is still prelaunches
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again, being online for 5minutes at 4am is hardly rewarding activity. You're rewarding the timezone someone lives in or there personal situation which may or may not allow them to be awake at that time.
Rewarding activity, would be rewarding people who are online the most, regardless of weither its day or night time in the UK.
__________________
First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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6 Aug 2010, 11:00
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#95
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Retired
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 61
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
I think that prelaunch (atleast in it's current form) gives too much edge to the attacks. I'd remove it OR make the JGP show launch/landing ETA. Lots of thought has been already mentioned, but to the point Morph3us stated, did someone mention somewhere about ability for alliance HC's to be able to see members fleets/mission info?
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6 Aug 2010, 13:07
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#96
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Fightin-irish for life
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: guinness brewery
Posts: 2,177
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US
prelaunching seperates the men from the boys
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No ,
It separates the smart from the stupid , getting up at stupid oclock in the middle of the night to click some buttons in spreadsheet wars is not smart when you could have prelaunched before you went to bed , new players are needed in the game and removing prelaunch will not encourage them to stay
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Ascendancy, now with added Irish
"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it."
-Rommel
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6 Aug 2010, 13:15
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#97
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idle
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 968
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
No ,
It separates the smart from the stupid , getting up at stupid oclock in the middle of the night to click some buttons in spreadsheet wars is not smart when you could have prelaunched before you went to bed , new players are needed in the game and removing prelaunch will not encourage them to stay
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so your saying everyone defending his alliance at those odd times is stupid?
prelaunch forces you to be online at odd times, without prelaunch ppl wouldnt launch every night for 7 weeks at 3 am
try to see the bigger picture
if there isnt 80% of the universe launching at 3 am (due to prelaunch) there wont be the same amount of defence needed
saying prelaunch attacks is helpful for new players is just wrong, really how can you not see that !?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
again, being online for 5minutes at 4am is hardly rewarding activity. You're rewarding the timezone someone lives in or there personal situation which may or may not allow them to be awake at that time.
Rewarding activity, would be rewarding people who are online the most, regardless of weither its day or night time in the UK.
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ofc its rewarding activity if you get up at night to launch fleets (be it attack or defence), same it is for americans to get up to check their attacks if they launched early
or it once upon a time was rewarding activity to be online every 2 ticks in the start of the game, to get ahead of everyone else
other then that, my main point isnt that i want activity rewarded
my main point is
THAT THERE WONT ****ING BE 80% OF THE UNIVERSE FLEETS FLYING AT EUROPEAN NIGHTS WITHOUT PRELAUNCH
__________________
m0rph3us formerly known as Bugz
"It´s not about how hard u hit, its about how hard u can get hit and still keep moving forward! How much u can take and still move forward!"
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6 Aug 2010, 13:42
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#98
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
It's rather difficult to genuinely predict what the outcome of removing prelaunch would be. There's never been a round with prelaunching and one tick attacks. It's obvious that less people would launch in the middle of the night though.
So what would happen? First off each alliance would have to adjust its landing ticks depending on its memberbase. Should you run 2 raids a day to accomodate different timezones? Problematic considering how difficult it sometimes is to get good coverage on even one raid these days. That said I'd be fairly sure uptake would be higher in general, although quite possibly not high enough. Some alliances will adjust their launch times backwards to go at 1/2am and some will adjust theirs forwards to go at 7/8am.
The overall impact of this will be that attacking fleets will become much more spread out. There will still be an advantage to launching at 3/4am as most people will be offline but the onslaught you see sometimes where basically nobody is online to send defence won't happen anymore. I don't really see the harm in trying it for one round anyways. It'd hardly be that bad and it'd certainly present another minor challenge for alliances to adjust to in terms of overall gameplay.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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6 Aug 2010, 15:24
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#99
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You've Seen The Light
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,152
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's rather difficult to genuinely predict what the outcome of removing prelaunch would be. There's never been a round with prelaunching and one tick attacks. It's obvious that less people would launch in the middle of the night though.
So what would happen? First off each alliance would have to adjust its landing ticks depending on its memberbase. Should you run 2 raids a day to accomodate different timezones? Problematic considering how difficult it sometimes is to get good coverage on even one raid these days. That said I'd be fairly sure uptake would be higher in general, although quite possibly not high enough. Some alliances will adjust their launch times backwards to go at 1/2am and some will adjust theirs forwards to go at 7/8am.
The overall impact of this will be that attacking fleets will become much more spread out. There will still be an advantage to launching at 3/4am as most people will be offline but the onslaught you see sometimes where basically nobody is online to send defence won't happen anymore. I don't really see the harm in trying it for one round anyways. It'd hardly be that bad and it'd certainly present another minor challenge for alliances to adjust to in terms of overall gameplay.
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I'd like to see a round with +1 prelaunch for attacking (defence prelaunch remains the same as now). +1 doesnt mean you can still do the 4am attacks, as 3am is just as bad for most people who find 4am bad.. but it does mean you have a 2hour window to come online for your attack rather than 1 hour which eases the problem abit.
__________________
First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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6 Aug 2010, 16:15
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#100
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Prelaunch (split)
Yeah I'd prefer +1 at least as well!
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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