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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 16:01   #1
Hude
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XP, part two

Ok, I was playing for value this round. At least up to the point where I got pissed at xp whores who bragged about "owning" top value planets. When I resetted my planet that had been top 10 value all round people thought that I'm crazy. I wanted to prove a point about xp. Here it goes, check out the planet history:

http://sandmans.co.uk/?p=viewplanet&...ry=all#history

BS research completed Wed 07/03/2007 and I started attacking.

I rest my case.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 16:03   #2
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Re: XP, part two

If this isn't proof of a problem, I don't know what is.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 16:20   #3
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Re: XP, part two

From top1000 to top30 in 2 weeks.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 16:27   #4
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Re: XP, part two

well it isnt the xp formulae that is broken its the stats that sucks
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 16:28   #5
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Re: XP, part two

Well done, unfortunately . I guess i should have switched tactic aswell rather than trying to keeping value and a usefull fleet around for me and others, selfishness ftw!
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 16:40   #6
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well it isnt the xp formulae that is broken its the stats that sucks
Heh, get a clue! The current XP and stats formula are both causing the problem, you can't blame just one of them for it. The formula decides how much value is worth sacrificing for roids when hitting a certain target and the stats decide how easy it is to hit bigger targets. With ships having only one class to shoot at and the obvious weaknesses in ships for each race that result from the initiative difference (combined with damage, but that isn't to important, initiative is the key factor here), XP whores will always be a "problem" if the formula allows them to sacrifice large amounts of value and still gain score. Thus the amount of XP that can be gained should be reduced to make it less worth while to lose alot of (flak) ships for roids, obviously the best thing to do would be to go into the direction of what Heartless suggested, but a shortterm solution would be to reduce the amount of XP gained (or have XP gained based on score only like Rikard suggested).
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 20:10   #7
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Re: XP, part two

no im right and you are wrong all that bla bla bla you just typed cant help the fact that its the pods armour that make a round xp or value. not to mention the bs pods that had tycoons as flak that targeted most anti bs an allie can send <-shit stats got nothing to do with the xp formula

i rule o/
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 20:16   #8
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Re: XP, part two

i agree with robban on this one :/
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 20:25   #9
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
no im right and you are wrong all that bla bla bla you just typed cant help the fact that its the pods armour that make a round xp or value. not to mention the bs pods that had tycoons as flak that targeted most anti bs an allie can send <-shit stats got nothing to do with the xp formula

i rule o/
Ah ofc.... that is why there are also a lot of Xan, Terran, Cathaar and Zikonian XP players, their pods were also heavily armoured right, and they all had BS pods and Tycoons aswell. Yes, you are right, i'm sorry, i must have looked at the wrong game statistics .

P.S. the Etd race just had it easier to collect XP due to their heavily armoured & more expensive pods, but this doesn't change anything about the fact that all races faired well playing XP style due to the formula used.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 21:25   #10
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Re: XP, part two

well seems like you havent checked "Top 100 XP Planets" ingame latly m8
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 21:39   #11
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Re: XP, part two

Thank you for the brilliant shipstats Paisley!


and edit. Could appocomaster maybe for once stop tweaking the XP form?
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 21:43   #12
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Re: XP, part two

robban1 is 100% spot on about the stats.

I think the only thing that sucks more is cluster 4 this round
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 21:49   #13
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Re: XP, part two

Luckely one list of some statistics doesn't show the entire picture now does it. I could explain to you how the combat engine works and how Etd has the most benefit from it due to the cost difference between their pods and flak and to lesser extent their higher arm/cost ratio (which isn't that off scale). And i could probably try to explain to you how much score you can gain from roiding decent sized planet over twice your value (and lose alot of value in the process while still gaining score) and that the race picked doesn't really matter a whole lot in that sense, but i just have a feeling it is pointless with the tunneled vision you have.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 22:19   #14
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Re: XP, part two

Well the first thing you look at is that round 19 was perfectly fine and an excellent, balanced round but round 20 wasn't so. The main difference is the stats. Last round Asc in the main made a conscious decision to play for value, because the stats encouraged us to do so.

Quote:
how much score you can gain from roiding decent sized planet over twice your value (and lose alot of value in the process while still gaining score) and that the race picked doesn't really matter a whole lot in that sense, but i just have a feeling it is pointless with the tunneled vision you have.
The question here is context. When I roided people like Caj this round i lost probably a 1/4 of my fleet for massive gains, but I felt I rightly earned it because I roided a top target. Roiding big and difficult targets successfully involves losses and xp gives people encouragement to actually land attacks and makes the top planets more vulnerable. If you are talking about excessive losses, then you'll have to point out what is excessive.

I don't believe it's a question of value and xp ultimately to fix planetarion, jester's thread on how he'd change planetarion is a far more helpful spotlight on how we might change the game for the better.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 22:46   #15
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I think the only thing that sucks more is cluster 4 this round
This is the thanks I get.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 23:16   #16
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
This is the thanks I get.
My galaxy is very different to my cluster, you guys defending me were heroes
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 23:21   #17
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
My galaxy is very different to my cluster, you guys defending me were heroes

well c4 didnt like me somehow :/
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 23:25   #18
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Re: XP, part two

heh, i gained like 3mill score in the last 5 days :\
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 23:43   #19
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
heh, i gained like 3mill score in the last 5 days :\
i noticed, at one point i asked for ur co-ords so i could attack u (as a practical joke ofc.) but u were too small blows uh huh.
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Unread 17 Mar 2007, 15:33   #20
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Re: XP, part two

All i can say is:

How rude of Hude!
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 11:22   #21
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Re: XP, part two

I think its not the XP that made this possible, Hude just is so good! :P
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 15:27   #22
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
~
Yup, you are correct that previous rounds were balanced better to reduce the effect of XP play (or the ease to do well with it) and this round will hopefully remain as an isolated case. But in the whole picture i do not think stats are the only deciding factor. Like you said it is all in context of what gains are worth which losses (and i honestly can't give a number I would say is fair, its more of a 'feeling' thing), but the 'mindless' crashing shouldn't be rewarded as greatly as it is atm. The stats (and round length) will inevitably make out which play will most likely pay off most in the end, but the amount of XP that is gained atm per roid when you hit planets over twice your value is just encouraging the crashing of fleets as i'd like to call it.

You can probably call me old fashioned for leaning towards value play (in terms of trying to get a decent fleet to help me and others grow and protect our gains), hence my personal dislike of players who crash fleets for score with generally no tactical sense apart from the bcalc telling them they will gain score despite losing their fleet. This specially counts in the last few days of the round where losing your fleet for huge gains in score is actually greatly rewarded and actually has very little to do with "domination the universe" (as this game apparantly is supposed to encourage).

XP should encourage 'smart' play vs bigger planets, not the pure attack fleet planets we are seeing atm (although in a way that is smart of course). I simply do not believe that rewarding players for having planets with pure attack fleets is good for the game as a whole, hence my reasoning that both the XP formula and stats are responsible for the whole XP whore 'problem'. And therefor me hoping that a system along the lines of what Heartless posted about will be implemented to stop the whole idea if crashing fleets being worth it.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 15:42   #23
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
XP should encourage 'smart' play vs bigger planets, not the pure attack fleet planets we are seeing atm (although in a way that is smart of course).
How on earth would you differentiate? This is why I think XP for landing attacks needs to go. It is impossible to differentiate between the two.
Quote:
And therefor me hoping that a system along the lines of what Heartless posted about will be implemented to stop the whole idea if crashing fleets being worth it.
As a small aside, don't misunderstand the system Heartless proposed (let's call it the permanent value scoring system, PVSS). It does encourage crashing fleets for roids, but not in as broad cases as XP for attacks. If you can rely on defense, and are able to rebuild at least a partial attacking fleet, then landing an attack that kills large amounts of value on both sides will not impact own score negatively, but will provide a large amount future score. That is, team players could be rewarded by the system for "betraying" their team, or landing a personally suicidal attack that kills a lot of enemy ships.

I understand what I meant by your statement, but I realized there were situations with the new system that provided incentives to crash and thought I'd share them. (No doubt others have had the same thoughts.)

I'd go so far as to say that the current XP formula does not encourage crashing, because one is continually pressured to step up the target difficulty in a way that wasn't done before score became a part of the XP formula. That is, one could suicide value to increase the value factor of the bravery, but finding viable targets with both higher value and score becomes more difficult.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 16:14   #24
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
As a small aside, don't misunderstand the system Heartless proposed (let's call it the permanent value scoring system, PVSS). It does encourage crashing fleets for roids, but not in as broad cases as XP for attacks. If you can rely on defense, and are able to rebuild at least a partial attacking fleet, then landing an attack that kills large amounts of value on both sides will not impact own score negatively, but will provide a large amount future score. That is, team players could be rewarded by the system for "betraying" their team, or landing a personally suicidal attack that kills a lot of enemy ships.
This, however, is fully intended, even though I'd not see it as an incentive for crash landings. When coming up with the idea I had in mind how much fun big battles with huge losses on both sides are, so this would for example be more reason to perform fleetcatches which might make your side lose ships, too, but overall might be benefitial in a war for roids because you crippled or destroyed an important part of your enemy's fleet. Thus I'd rather describe it as an incentive to wage devastating battles (which is almost the same thing but sounds a lot nicer ).
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 16:34   #25
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Re: XP, part two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
How on earth would you differentiate? This is why I think XP for landing attacks needs to go. It is impossible to differentiate between the two.
Yup, this is exaclty the problem. There will always be cases that justify losing fleet and cases that are just stupid and the difference is impossible to tell, unless ofcourse an extreme wide case processing was built in that checks each landing for different values involved (values lost/gained on both sides, timing, war relations, use of stats etc) and alters score gain accordingly, but that is to complex to be worth implementing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
As a small aside, don't misunderstand the system Heartless proposed (let's call it the permanent value scoring system, PVSS). It does encourage crashing fleets for roids, but not in as broad cases as XP for attacks. If you can rely on defense, and are able to rebuild at least a partial attacking fleet, then landing an attack that kills large amounts of value on both sides will not impact own score negatively, but will provide a large amount future score. That is, team players could be rewarded by the system for "betraying" their team, or landing a personally suicidal attack that kills a lot of enemy ships.
I am aware of that, but it would be generally harder to get back up as larger planets (fleet wise) will be able to pick up more score than you while you are down and thus outscore you in end (still leaving the "crash on last day for lots of score"-option though). Otherwise if you crash and can keep the roids thanks to your team and grow back up rather fast i tend to call that a strategy, which isn't really seen atm due to the amount of attacks landing. And there is much more to the suggestion Heartless made than just landing attacks, hence i think that the scoring system there is more likely to balance crashing in a fair way.

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That is, one could suicide value to increase the value factor of the bravery, but finding viable targets with both higher value and score becomes more difficult.
True, but at the same time it isn't really needed to continuesly max out the XP per roid to both value and score. Max is currently 30 XP per roid, and hitting planet above twice your value and around your score still gets you a very decent 20 XP per roid which is high considering the amount of attacks that land in this swap the roid game. Hence i still think that crashing atm isn't nearly as damaging as it should be, but that last thing is largely due to the stats this round making it very easy to find targets above twice your value.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 17:06   #26
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Re: XP, part two

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Originally Posted by Wandows
True, but at the same time it isn't really needed to continuesly max out the XP per roid to both value and score. Max is currently 30 XP per roid, and hitting planet above twice your value and around your score still gets you a very decent 20 XP per roid which is high considering the amount of attacks that land in this swap the roid game. Hence i still think that crashing atm isn't nearly as damaging as it should be, but that last thing is largely due to the stats this round making it very easy to find targets above twice your value.
Unfortunately "I still think attacking isn't nearly as damaging as it should be" is a completely meaningless statement in the context of any constructive discussion. It's the intellectual equivalent of "But I want it!" While it shows that you value something, it doesn't show any of the reasoning, and therefore doesn't provide any grounds to others for moving their position.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 17:32   #27
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Re: XP, part two

How is that so? I explained my thoughts around the score gains that make losing value a reasonable option and my conclusion there is that it isn't damaging enough to crash fleets. I figured the other stuff i posted above it would make it clear enough that currently (both due to stats and XP) it is to easy to get a high score with a play that involves hardly any risk or challange at all. It can be continued even with heavy fleet losses without really damaging the planet apart from slowing the growth for a few days.

The "I want" argument is completely pointless as everyone bases their reasoning on what they ultimately see as best for the game, which is undoubtedly influenced by the way they enjoy playing it most.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 17:40   #28
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Re: XP, part two

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Originally Posted by Wandows
How is that so? I explained my thoughts around the score gains that make losing value a reasonable option and my conclusion there is that it isn't damaging enough to crash fleets. I figured the other stuff i posted above it would make it clear enough that currently (both due to stats and XP) it is to easy to get a high score with a play that involves hardly any risk or challange at all. It can be continued even with heavy fleet losses without really damaging the planet apart from slowing the growth for a few days.

The "I want" argument is completely pointless as everyone bases their reasoning on what they ultimately see as best for the game, which is undoubtedly influenced by the way they enjoy playing it most.
What would, in your eyes, be considered as damaging enough then?
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 20:44   #29
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Re: XP, part two

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Originally Posted by Heartless
What would, in your eyes, be considered as damaging enough then?
Well, like i said i can't honestly answer that question in hard numbers as currently reducing the effect of the XP formula (given there is a balanced set of stats) means you'll most likely go back to value play. It stretches much further than just the simple lost_value vs gained_roids comparison as has been pointed out in several other threads/posts. With XP for attacking there are simply to many things influencing the decision of it being a worthwhile landing than just the roids/score gain. As pointed out in war it can be worth losing value/score for little gains if you manage to damage a severe part of the opposing force. While in peace time (with your target not being a direct hostile treat) it seems foolish to lose alot of your fleet for some fixed score gain, even if you hurt the target planet alot.

Just like currently the only way to get (decent) XP is through attacking, while in order to offer more different playing styles to do well (i do not see XP whoring and value whoring as different playing styles in that sense as they both have to do with attacking, its just the targetting and score gains that are different) there should be other aspects of the game that should be rewarded just like attacking is. There is for example little to no reward in playing defence, just like covert opping and scanning will never get you a top/decent planet while these play styles are a must for any alliance to have really.

XP in its current form will simply never be balanced nor fair, as there are always cases that make no sense, specially with the last day/week of the round crashing that can get low value planets a lot of extra score the value players are unable to compete with (unless you count unspent resources as a last day bonus). Jesters last post about the spending or mining of resources making up score seems to be a very good alternative for the current ranking , as losing your fleet for roids there will be punished in you being somewhat defenceless and thus less able to keep (a lot of) roids for decent score gain. Another solution could be to have two different rankings, one that rewards the biggest value player and another that rewards the most active/effective player who got the most XP.
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Unread 21 Mar 2007, 22:09   #30
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Re: XP, part two

Did we really need a xp part two? Or did hude just want to show off!
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Unread 22 Mar 2007, 11:47   #31
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Re: XP, part two

I'm glad you were able to deduce that from the thread.
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