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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 14:14   #1
eJohn
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Multicultural societies

Do they work?

Thats the question im asking (before we get bogged down in ****ing semantics and pedantry as usual).

I would consider myself a tolerant universalist, and would like to think that they do. But there seems to be so much evidence to the contrary - hatred between races, religions - peoples of some cultures just seem unable to live together - not just in places like palestine or kashmir, but in birmingham, in the deep south of america, in belgium etc.

Of course, its the extremist minorities that hold the intolerant views - but these views and subsequent actions cause tensions between whole communities who realistically have no reason to be in conflict.

When i say "do they work?" i guess you can also consider what "work" means - you could interpret this to mean are they essential/positive in the creation of a strong civic nation?

I'm not convinced either way, and was hoping we could possibly get some constructive discussion on the subject.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 14:37   #2
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Re: Multicultural societies

no, they don't work.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 14:41   #3
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Re: Multicultural societies

Unfortunately I think this is mainly going to be a thread about the meaning of words, despite your best efforts.

I think all you can reasonably debate is "To what extent". All societies have troubles and obviously "multicultural" societies are no different in that regard. But perhaps it's arguable that very visible distinctions in culture/etc may worsen or antagonise problems. I don't really know about that.

But the reason why I put "multicultural" in speech marks isn't because I'm going to be a pedant, but because every society is multicultural (ok, I am little bit). I can't tell the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu or a Sunni and a Shi'ite, but that doesn't mean they're part of the same culture. Similarly, once upon a time being Irish in Britain was a big deal, there was a level of antagonism between English and Irish, and some instances of violence. Now the distinction has been eroded a bit and people tend to be relatively blind to the distinction, perhaps because there's so many more "visibly" different people in large British cities. Perhaps that's a permanent assimilation, but perhaps not.

Let's imagine that the BNP won some landlside victory and "repatrioted" all non-white people (which I think was one of their campaign pledges at one point, I can't recall exactly). Would that mean Britain was monocultural? Well, of course not - what about the Paddies, the Slavs, etc? OK, so let's wave our magic wand and deport all them somehow to some magical mystery place. So you've just got the Brits left. But then what about those of Welsh descent? And so on.

People seem to like dividing themselves up, to an extent. It's debatable that even if you got down to "White middle class people from the South East of England of English descent" you'd have a monoculture. What about punks vs indie kids (or whatever).

I realise this hasn't answered your question. It's probably true to say that :
- certain kinds of distinctions between people are harder to ignore than others (there's a quote from a black writer in the 50's that his children will be 'less British' than the children of a German luftwaffe pilot who settled in Britan at the same time. He had a point.)

- cultures of a certain level of "difference" (not sure how you'd define this) probably have harder times getting on than others.

- different dynamics exist depending on the scale & history of these different cultures. Do they share any history at all? Is it a 50/50 split, or is a 95/5? Is one group outgrowing the other? Is there a history of antagonism? What are the balance of neighbouring states? Etc.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 14:44   #4
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Re: Multicultural societies

i'd have thought it'd depend on the social/cultural model that you wanted to employ.

capitolism, or whatever you want to call the system currently in use would seem to encourage selfishness (be it by the individual or by groups) and therefore increase the risk of tension between different social groups. however (and this is a totally uninformed guess) i'd imagine that some would suggest a more equitable system would make a multi cultural society more feasable.

that said, your post kindof implies that multicultural means multi racial/religous. do lower/upper/middle class type things count as multicultural?
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 14:46   #5
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Re: Multicultural societies

everything dante said, plus a slight ad hominem too: anyone who says that having a multicultural society causes unrest is just looking for a scapegoat so they don't have to question their own nationalism/petty racism/whatever.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 14:51   #6
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
everything dante said, plus a slight ad hominem too: anyone who says that having a multicultural society causes unrest is just looking for a scapegoat so they don't have to question their own nationalism/petty racism/whatever.
or recognising that it exists in themselves and their peers?
ofc, it's not the fault of the society, but cause and fault arn't neccessarily the same thing, imo
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 16:56   #7
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Re: Multicultural societies

America is fairly multicultural as these things go, and it seems to be working ok.

I dont think that multiculturalism is necessarily a good thing though, but it depends precisely what you mean by the term. If being multicultural just involves having people of different racial origins living together in harmony, then of course its something to strive towards. But it means being 'tolerant' and non-judgemental towards all the beliefs of others, no matter how irrational and wrong they are (eg Islam, Intelligent Design, etc), then it isnt a very good idea. For example, if you have a society which to some degree has a notion of individual rights built into its legal system, and an ethnic minority which believes for some reason that homosexuals and adulterous women should be stoned to death, then obviously youre going to have conflict somewhere along the line. But if all groups subscribe to a similar rights-based political philosophy, then it doesnt really matter if they eat elephant for dinner, listen to tribal drum music, and practice polygamy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
everything dante said, plus a slight ad hominem too: anyone who says that having a multicultural society causes unrest is just looking for a scapegoat so they don't have to question their own nationalism/petty racism/whatever.
I think that 'unintegrated' racial minorities have correlated with crime in most Western countries throughout the 20th century. Noticing this isnt a sign of racism.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Dec 2005 at 17:10.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 17:04   #8
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
capitolism, or whatever you want to call the system currently in use would seem to encourage selfishness (be it by the individual or by groups) and therefore increase the risk of tension between different social groups.
Encouraging selfishness would surely decrease tension between different groups, since it would cause people to make themselves their #1 priority rather than others (including those of the same race) . It also seemsto be in contradiction to the claim people often make that capitalism/modern life has the effect of dissolving social/group ties and causing alienation.

Quote:
however (and this is a totally uninformed guess) i'd imagine that some would suggest a more equitable system would make a multi cultural society more feasable.
Note that the most racist societies in the world have generally been highly authoritarian (Nazi Germany, most middle eastern countries, etc). While I'm sure that Jesse Jackson would loudly disagree, I think America is probably one of the least racist countries in the world today.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 17:14   #9
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
While I'm sure that Jesse Jackson would loudly disagree, I think America is probably one of the least racist countries in the world today.
I frequently get the impression that every one of your views is derived from assumptions based on your own experiences. You don't believe people can be unable to find work, or can struggle on the poverty line, because you never have, you've never spent time with anyone who has, and thus attribute it to laziness. You assume in this case that racism isn't a problem in America because - whether down to where you've been or just who you've spoken to - you're stereotyping the whole of America based on the liberal North-East. LA, for example, has crippling racial issues which are in the main either perpetrated or encouraged by significant white groups, often in authority positions - and let's not even start on the Bible Belt.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 17:29   #10
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Encouraging selfishness would surely decrease tension between different groups
"Selfishness" is a misused term as people often use it to refer to people who prioritise their family / clan / kin above others. But it's quite a multi-layered argument in regards to how social bonds on a number of levels are affected by different economic systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i'd imagine that some would suggest a more equitable system would make a multi cultural society more feasable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Note that the most racist societies in the world have generally been highly authoritarian (Nazi Germany, most middle eastern countries, etc).
Nazi Germany and the Middle East weren't/aren't particularly equitable afaik. In fact, quite the opposite.

But anyway, I'd say it's quite difficult to measure racism in a more/less sense. There probably aren't many instances of racism in North Korea against black people because, well, there aren't any. You can start imagining hypothetical levels of racism, but that's stretching things a bit.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 18:35   #11
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Re: Multicultural societies

I'm not even going to touch this thread, I'll be here all day.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 19:46   #12
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
america sux
I never said that racism doesnt exist in America, I said that it was one of the least racist countries in the world today.

Name a society which you think is multiracial to a similar extent as America yet has less racism.

Quote:
You don't believe people can be unable to find work, or can struggle on the poverty line, because you never have, you've never spent time with anyone who has, and thus attribute it to laziness
Ive never said that people cant struggle to find work, I've said that I dont care. Its irrelevant from the point of view of politics because the government doesnt exist to ensure that everyone has a brilliant life full of happyness and puppies.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 19:48   #13
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I never said that racism doesnt exist in America, I said that it was one of the least racist countries in the world today.

Name a society which you think is multiracial to a similar extent as America yet has less racism.
how about the UK or canada, for a couple of obvious points?
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 19:50   #14
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
how about the UK
haha, no. Even if this were true it wouldnt be a counter arguement because my point was that capitalist countries tend to be less racist, and the UK is probably one of the most capitalist countries in the world after America.

Quote:
or canada
I dont know enough about it really, but I dont think it has the same racial mix as America. It doesnt have a large hispanic/black population afaik like the US does.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 19:56   #15
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
haha, no. Even if this were true it wouldnt be a counter arguement because my point was that capitalist countries tend to be less racist, and the UK is probably one of the most capitalist countries in the world after America.
1)The US is spectacularly racist in large chunks of it, and the UK isn't. Oh, and I'm not saying America sucks, I'm saying you have no idea what you are talking about.

2)I'm interested in the capitalism scale, and also how you'd explain away pre-civil rights America, which certainly was a festering bed of capitalism and was certainly overtly racist in a way few other places were at the time. Also, Australia.



edit: as for Canada, it has strict immigration rules regarding everywhere meaning immigrant populations have been less able to settle over the last 50 years or so, but for a country its size it has a fairly large non-white population with little tension.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 20:09   #16
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
1)The US is spectacularly racist in large chunks of it, and the UK isn't.
I think this is wrong. The UK perhaps has less incidents of out and out racial violence than some places in southern America (although even this is debateable - see asian asylum seekers in Glasgow council estates for instance), but it shows its true colours as soon as you get into discussions about immigrants and else which could potentially threaten the 'British way of life'. America, as a whole, doesnt have the same negative attitude towards immigrants and anything which threatens cultural homogenity, because it is essentially a nation of immigrants. You wouldnt ever have an American election where one of the major parties ran on a platform of cutting down on asylum seekers for instance.

Anyway, racism isnt a big problem in most UK cities simply because most UK cities dont have a large non-white populations. But in the ones that do, such as Birmingham and London, it is an issue. Are there any UK cities where different races live in relative harmony like they do in some (non-South) US cities? Probably not.

Quote:
2)I'm interested in the capitalism scale, and also how you'd explain away pre-civil rights America, which certainly was a festering bed of capitalism and was certainly overtly racist in a way few other places were at the time.
I'm not talking about 50 years ago, I'm talking about now. I'm not denying that America has a long and distinguished history of racism, from the trail of tears down to WW2 concentration camps for Japanese people.

Quote:
Also, Australia.
You cant be serious. Afaik Austalia has more racial problems than most Western countries due to the Aborginee situation.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 20:12   #17
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Re: Multicultural societies

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
and the UK is probably one of the most capitalist countries in the world after America.
Quoted for posterity.

I thought Britain was a socialist hell-hole because of the NHS, etc?
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 21:00   #18
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You cant be serious. Afaik Austalia has more racial problems than most Western countries due to the Aborginee situation.
i meant it was an example of capitalist racism which you seemed to dispute the prevalence of.

also, this morning i watched a thing on BBC news about the 50,000 armed volunteers who guard the mexican border looking for filthy wetbacks thinking they can take our jobs. america hates immigrants far more than we do, it's just that the North doesn't have very many (and also that people in the North arent ****ing racist hicks but thats beside the point).
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 21:17   #19
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Re: Multicultural societies

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Originally Posted by mist
i'd have thought it'd depend on the social/cultural model that you wanted to employ.

capitolism, or whatever you want to call the system currently in use would seem to encourage selfishness


that said, your post kindof implies that multicultural means multi racial/religous. do lower/upper/middle class type things count as multicultural?
As nod says, im not sure fundamentalism is particularly "universal". Nor was really existing socialism.

By multiculturalism i mean different ethnic nations under the banner of one civic nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
everything dante said, plus a slight ad hominem too: anyone who says that having a multicultural society causes unrest is just looking for a scapegoat so they don't have to question their own nationalism/petty racism/whatever.
What about those who dislike nationalism/racism etc but realise that nationalists patriots and racists etc make up a huge percentage of every nation and therefore "Multiculturalism" is always going to be a thorn in the side?


In summary of the other points;

If we are to hold America up as the example of a multicultural country which is "going ok", then why do so many black americans feel alienated etc? Ill post more when i get back from the pub
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 21:44   #20
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
i meant it was an example of capitalist racism which you seemed to dispute the prevalence of.

also, this morning i watched a thing on BBC news about the 50,000 armed volunteers who guard the mexican border looking for filthy wetbacks thinking they can take our jobs. america hates immigrants far more than we do, it's just that the North doesn't have very many (and also that people in the North arent ****ing racist hicks but thats beside the point).
There is a system as to how to migrate to the US. And crossing the US border illegally is not one of them. You'd probably blow up a Frenchman's brains away in a heartbeat if you see him canoeing through the English Channel just to seek "haven" in Britain.

Although there are some southern states where racism is still existing, most states are very diversed, and actually, a lot of the major cities in the US that drive and determine the nation's economical success are very multi-cultural. Los Angeles and New York, for example, have a huge Hispanic, Black and Asian population. The City of LA Mayor is Mexican. Even the US capital is predominantly Black.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 21:46   #21
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
You'd probably blow up a Frenchman's brains away in a heartbeat if you see him canoeing through the English Channel just to seek "haven" in Britain.
As a citizen of France he'd have a legal right to reside (and work) in the United Kingdom.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 21:46   #22
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Re: Multicultural societies

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Originally Posted by eJohn
Of course, its the extremist minorities that hold the intolerant views
Your quite wrong about that one
Quote:
When i say "do they work?" i guess you can also consider what "work" means - you could interpret this to mean are they essential/positive in the creation of a strong civic nation?
tbh, Im not sure if multiculturalism actually adds anything useful to society
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 21:47   #23
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As a citizen of France he'd have a legal right to reside (and work) in the United Kingdom.
Assuming France doesn't have it like that with Britain - just using those 2 countries randomly based on their geography..
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 22:03   #24
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
Los Angeles and New York, for example, have a huge Hispanic, Black and Asian population. The City of LA Mayor is Mexican.
New York works very well, thus Nod's perception. LA has the race riots.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 23:38   #25
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Re: Multicultural societies

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Encouraging selfishness would surely decrease tension between different groups, since it would cause people to make themselves their #1 priority rather than others (including those of the same race) .
my history isn't exactly first rate, but i seem to remember some distinct overtones of "damned jews, living better than we are, it's all their fault" at some point. selfishness, imo, leads to coverting what others have, and therefore possibly to resentment.

hmm, not sure if i explained that very well, but still.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 00:32   #26
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
Your quite wrong about that one

tbh, Im not sure if multiculturalism actually adds anything useful to society
Would you care to explain where im quite wrong?

For example, in birmingham, it is a minority of blacks and asians that are fighting, rioting, causing hassle etc (unless you are prepared to say "all/most blacks and asians are trouble making rioters). But the actions of the minority cause problems between the majority communities as a whole
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 00:48   #27
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
New York works very well, thus Nod's perception. LA has the race riots.
The last major race-related riot in Los Angeles was 14 years ago regarding Rodney King and LAPD.

Any other little skirmish riots you may hear about in some high schools in LA are all gang-related. Even if these gangs "represent" certain ethnic groups, most of gang-related riots are caused by things that happen within their "circuits" and "businesses" and most of the time, are not race-related. Even some LA gangs are rivals with other gangs that are of the same ethnic groups, like Chivas Regal (Mexican) against Brown Pride Surenos (Mexican) or even 18th Street (Hispanics and Blacks), Pinoy Real (Filipino) against Temple Street (Orientals and Southeast Asians), at some point, Bloods and Crips (Blacks), etc.

And even with the existence of these gangs, gang-related crime here in Los Angeles has been going down in the last 8 years now.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 01:01   #28
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
tbh, Im not sure if multiculturalism actually adds anything useful to society
What it adds is a diversity that prevents a culture from stagnating too much. If it weren't for immigration (or rather, stealing the best and the brightest from other cultures), Britain would never have achieved its empire, as just one example.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 01:22   #29
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Re: Multicultural societies

Nor would we have enough dentists etc just now. The question i was pondering was whether the benefits outweigh the costs however. Whether you interpret the question from a humanitarian or a realist viewpoint is your choice, but i was only musing.

In my experience, different ethnic nations have their own communities and show no interest in integrating themselves - ie, the indian/pakistani communities. As such, im dubious as to whether they can take the "victim" mentality as to complaining that they dont feel "British" "English" "Scottish" etc - because they show no interest in becoming "English" or "Scottish". Your own culture is your own culture, but to a certain extent there has to be some assimilation going on. My dad always says if he was to move to france, he feels the onus would and SHOULD be on him to in a way, "become" french - adopt the french lifestyle (while of course, retaining who you are)
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 02:12   #30
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Re: Multicultural societies

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Originally Posted by eJohn
Nor would we have enough dentists etc just now. The question i was pondering was whether the benefits outweigh the costs however. Whether you interpret the question from a humanitarian or a realist viewpoint is your choice, but i was only musing.

In my experience, different ethnic nations have their own communities and show no interest in integrating themselves - ie, the indian/pakistani communities.
Yeah, but they're all paying taxes which is additional income for your government. Or you could get rid of all of them, and pay more taxes to cover your nation's losses?
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 02:42   #31
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
Your own culture is your own culture, but to a certain extent there has to be some assimilation going on. My dad always says if he was to move to france, he feels the onus would and SHOULD be on him to in a way, "become" french - adopt the french lifestyle (while of course, retaining who you are)
In my opinion, your father is right. If you choose to immigrate to a country (for whatever reason), you should make an effort to fit in with that country, weather it be by speaking the language correctly, following the sporting events or integrating yourself in the social circles of your peers, otherwise all you will do is create a smaller version of the country you left behind (which one would assume you left for a reason).
Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
Yeah, but they're all paying taxes which is additional income for your government. Or you could get rid of all of them, and pay more taxes to cover your nation's losses?
Nobody said that it was necessary to get rid of these people, its just a shame that they are not doing their bit to fit in with the society of their host nation, which, In my opinion, is an essential part of immigration.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 04:07   #32
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Re: Multicultural societies

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Originally Posted by demiGOD
Yeah, but they're all paying taxes which is additional income for your government. Or you could get rid of all of them, and pay more taxes to cover your nation's losses?
Concepts like that are a bit misleading. Sure, if you deported a whole bunch of people there would be economic chaos, but that doesn't really prove anything apart from large scale instability = generally bad for the economy.

"Immigrants" (and their descendents) of course do pay taxes. However, they also use services (i.e. incur costs) so it's not clear cut. If our population reduced by 25% then of course we'd have less 25% taxes but we'd also have less costs. Of course, you wouldn't have exactly 25% less costs because certain costs are fixed. If the population of an area drops by a quarter it's not like the maintenance costs for the school or hospital are going to be reduced by much (and so on).

But anyway, it's difficult to analyse the impact immigration has had as you're essentially constructing elaborate what if scenarios. I think economically it's generally agreed that first generation immigrants (and the upkeep of their children, presuming they have some) are a slight net drain on the economy somehow (these are all stats from memory, so stay with me here) but the second generation are a big net contributor once they've grown up (as they're generally doing better jobs than their parents). But I'm dubious about how meaningful those kind of stats are.

I think overall all you can really say is that if Britain had had no colonial immigration after WW2 we would have had a labour shortage for a while and thus our economy would have grown significantly slower. But then, perhaps that would have adjusted itself somehow (since we reached unemployment of 4 million or so at one point, one assumes the shortage would not have lasted forever). But perhaps we'd have less (say) housing shortages in the South East now. Who knows.

Overall I'm glad since my mother was an immigrant so Britain would have lost out on my aceness and then who knows where we'd be.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 09:07   #33
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Exclamation Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
also, this morning i watched a thing on BBC news about the 50,000 armed volunteers who guard the mexican border looking for filthy wetbacks thinking they can take our jobs.
Say what? If you're referring to the Minuteman Project (the largest and best organized group, by far), they've got maybe 500 volunteers.
Quote:
america hates immigrants far more than we do, it's just that the North doesn't have very many (and also that people in the North arent ****ing racist hicks but thats beside the point).
If we don't have many immigrants here in the north then why is my daughter's elementary school full of Hmong and Somali kids? Where did all these second-generation vietnamese, russian and hispanics come from? Why is my state full of towns with scandinavian names?

The US has a much higher immigration rate than the UK (3.3 migrants per 1000 vs. 2.2), and of course that's only counting the legal immigrants. For a country that supposedly hates immigrants so much we seem to be letting a lot of them in (referring to the legal immigrants).


Personally, I have no problem with immigrants so long as they're not expecting me to support them. I don't care if they want to learn English or 'our customs'.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 10:54   #34
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Quoted for posterity.

I thought Britain was a socialist hell-hole because of the NHS, etc?
It is, but theres not much competition. If we were to make some 'capitalism scale' where Soviet Russia was 0% and utopia was 100%, then America is probably around 65 and Britain 50 ish.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 13:47   #35
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Re: Multicultural societies

I'm not really convinced the question you asked actually means anything. I don't think you can make those sorts of judgements about how all societies will react to immigration. Most of the worst problems societies end up confronting are those that arise when we try and make grandiose utopian plans and suborn the individual to the state.

It's very difficult to look at just one society and conclude that immigration is a good or bad idea for that one society. A lot of it depends on circumstances. For example due to the way the medical system has evolved in Ireland huge numbers of doctors and nurses who graduate from Irish universities leave for more profitable shores. This shortfall is made up by doctors and nurses emigrating (from India and the Phillipines respectively if those statistics I saw a while ago are still true). This is almost unquestionably a good thing as citizens find their lives prolonged due to this fact. That said if doctors were paid more or emigration banned we'd have the necessary number of doctors without requiring immigration. However this brings along it's own unique set of problems.

Many of the problems we face which are blamed on the clash of cultures are really problems with far more to do with poverty, both lack of wealth and lack of knowledge. To draw a bit of a silly comparison it's not the top 100 richest black people and the top 100 richest white people in the UK out fighting each other on the streets of Birmingham. Having not much to lose and being given plenty of seemingly sound reasons to lose it is a rather dangerous combination.

Quote:
are they [multicultural societies] essential/positive in the creation of a strong civic nation?
I seriously doubt that this question has any meaning at all. The concept of a strong civic nation is confused on many levels. Certainly in modern times unless you're proposing some sort of bizzare closing of all electronic borders the question of a "nation" is a tad off the point. The word "creation" is misleading as well, you're not creating anything, you are changing something which already exists. I am slightly bemused as to what "strong civic" means. Respect for the the rule of law? Respect for other people? It depends on what other forms your nation takes. At most I could give the question of "should we allow people of skill x from country y into country z?" some credit. It would still be best to consider things on an individual basis though.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 16:23   #36
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
America, as a whole, doesnt have the same negative attitude towards immigrants
What? Have I been living my life believing complete lies about America? I was under the impression that they're insanely strict about who they'll let into their country...? Unless you're talking literally the whole of America, as opposed to the whole of the US, and in that case I don't think what you're saying about it all being so much more capitalist than Britain is quite right.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 16:26   #37
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
Would you care to explain where im quite wrong?

For example, in birmingham, it is a minority of blacks and asians that are fighting, rioting, causing hassle etc (unless you are prepared to say "all/most blacks and asians are trouble making rioters). But the actions of the minority cause problems between the majority communities as a whole
Well you said "its the extremist minorities that hold the intolerant views "
I just think you underestimate the amount of intolerance in the world,
In alot of parts in the world its normal to be intolerant towards other cultures and it aint just minorities that hold such views.

Zimbabwe Iran Nigeria and Palastina are the most extreme examples.
Racism against chinese in Indonesia, and not the mention the general intollerence from muslims against people from other religions.
I don't know if you;ve ever been in North-East Italy, but nazism still lives their and people are used to looking down on black people.

So in alot of society's it would proberbly be unthinkable to get it to work in the foreseeable future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
What it adds is a diversity that prevents a culture from stagnating too much. If it weren't for immigration (or rather, stealing the best and the brightest from other cultures), Britain would never have achieved its empire, as just one example.
Allowing immigration is not the same thing as a multicultural society.
Ofcourse it's good for a country to be able to evolve and adept to what happends in the world.
Its also good if your culture actually evolves, maybe even with features of other cultures.

But a Multicultural society has several destinct cultures in one society,
and try to preserve those differences while living in peacefull coexistance.
I personally don't think its in our nature to accept other people in such a way
people will always favor their own kind more, and feel odd around 'strangers'. I seriously doubt a society runs better when people have different value's, culture and behaviour.
I favor a society in which people are actually equal, and have the same value's.
To me assimilation or a melting pod aproach seems vastly superior to Multiculturalism.
At the moment we see tensions raising in many parts of Western Europe as the multiculturalistic approach towards immigrants starts to fail and it will proberbly lead to a more USA like meltingpot aproach in the future, where people are given the same oppertunity's.
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 16:37   #38
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
What? Have I been living my life believing complete lies about America? I was under the impression that they're insanely strict about who they'll let into their country...?
Strict compared to where? I was under the impression that the US let in more immigrants per head of population than most Western countries, and I would assume that a higher % of their society is first/second generation immigrants than pretty much anywhere else (except Israel lol).
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Unread 24 Dec 2005, 19:20   #39
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Exclamation Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Strict compared to where? I was under the impression that the US let in more immigrants per head of population than most Western countries, and I would assume that a higher % of their society is first/second generation immigrants than pretty much anywhere else (except Israel lol).
Canada (5.9 migrants per 1000 population) and Australia (3.9) both have higher legal* immigration rates than the US (3.3), but we're all immigrant countries. I don't think it's too surprising that countries which were more recently founded by immigrants tend to have more liberal immigation policies.



*The US probably leads if illegal immigrants are counted, but of course they're much harder to count.
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Unread 25 Dec 2005, 00:14   #40
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Re: Multicultural societies

It seems to me that its not actually important how many immigrants per 1000 a country has, it matters more what happens once they are there, for example hundreds of thousands of people could migrate to Scotland, but if they were all tortured once they got there it would appear to be a very insular and monocultural society.

(Just using Scotland as an example, I doubt this is likely to happen any time soon).
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Unread 25 Dec 2005, 11:22   #41
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Re: Multicultural societies

Yeah, like 1 American every 1 million Iraqis can migrate to Iraq and get his head chopped off.
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Unread 25 Dec 2005, 11:46   #42
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Re: Multicultural societies

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
it would appear to be a very insular and monocultural society.
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