r29 shipstats

[isildurx]

I cant say I really understand the point either. Except if the statsmaker(s) basically assume that noone is going to go cat co this round(as CR\BS is so awesome) and thus wants to make xan FI more viable?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Onim

a) almost impossible, or you would want to cripple ur attackfleet by spending so much on mantis

Assuming you want to cause a certain amount of value damage per roid you own, the change from FI/CO -> CO/FI is fine.

With FI/CO, 1,000 mantis cause 9.5k value damage to xand FI or 4.7k to cath CO. With CO/FI, the mantis cause 5.6k dmg to FI or 7.8k to the CO.

Eg, if you want to cause 250 value damage per roid you own. With FI/CO targeting the 1,000 mantis would be enough to defend about 19 roids (4.7k dmg to cath CO). With CO/FI targeting your 1,000 mantis are enough to defend 22 roids.

With the new targeting you need less mantis per roid you own than you did before!



You're right about b).

If I picked cath there's no way I could see myself going CO with these stats. CR is so superior that it's not even funny. CO caths have to buy a ton of beetle/viper and they're still awful at anti FR (100-110% efficiency EMP heh). With the loss of the mantis anti-FR deterrent, things are even worse. I can't see CO caths doing very well tbh.

[Achilles]

In addition to Gate's point, it should also be remembered that Mantis is 0 loss. Not only is this significant in terms of the actual combat but it's also a huge factor in target selection. Come TP (from Hulls 3 to mid game) Fi/Co attack fleets won't even look at Cat because to do so means you accept a value loss before you even launch. There is no reason for the target to move their Mantis and indeed they get free salvage, with that nice little bonus, if they don't. I think it was stated already in the thread, but the threat of Mantis is as good as the Mantis themselves.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Gate

Assuming you want to cause a certain amount of value damage per roid you own, the change from FI/CO -> CO/FI is fine.

With FI/CO, 1,000 mantis cause 9.5k value damage to xand FI or 4.7k to cath CO. With CO/FI, the mantis cause 5.6k dmg to FI or 7.8k to the CO.

Eg, if you want to cause 250 value damage per roid you own. With FI/CO targeting the 1,000 mantis would be enough to defend about 19 roids (4.7k dmg to cath CO). With CO/FI targeting your 1,000 mantis are enough to defend 22 roids.

With the new targeting you need less mantis per roid you own than you did before!

While the new targetting of the Mantis has indeed increased its strength against Cathaar corvettes, I don't expect more than a handful of players taking that route. This makes the Mantis primarily a counter against Xandathrii fighters. The change in targetting weakens the Mantis considerably against that fleet, while it also solidifies the dominance of cruiser+Mantis over corvette+Mantis.

That said, I believe Achi is right. The mere possibility of self-covering Mantis (especially with eternal production queues) will protect against Xandathrii fighter and Cathaar corvette fleets.

[Gate]

Anyway, I think cath CO need some kind of boost. An anti FR/DE killship or swapping viper targeting to FR/DE (or roach to DE/FR) might be a way around it.

[Gary]

Every race seems playable - I don't see a stand out race. Good job to the stats makers, they feel really balanced

[Nestorn]

Any chance to get a deadline for when stats are going to be final? Cause id love to know when i should bother to watch which race to pick

[MrLobster]

The stats will be final 1 minute before the first tick :P

[eltsin]

Originally Posted by MrLobster

The stats will be final 1 minute before the first tick :P

You mean PT72+Time_to_travel?

[[B5]Londo]

Originally Posted by Gate

Anyway, I think cath CO need some kind of boost. An anti FR/DE killship or swapping viper targeting to FR/DE (or roach to DE/FR) might be a way around it.

Presumably switching vips targeting would make xan, rather than the current terr, the main target of a cath co. I think that the terr bs, etd fr and zik de who already statistically find it relatively easy to attack xan fr should be enough without adding to their their woes.

The bold cat co can already go through the etd fr because they fire simultaneously, obviously there is trouble with ingal cutters, but no more so than there would be with ingal clippers/pegs if the targeting was switched.

I have no particular reason for opposing an fr/de killship except then it would be theoretically possible (if rather stupid) to be cat with largely kill shippies which is not what cat is about.

[Colt]

Originally Posted by [B5]Londo

Presumably switching vips targeting would make xan, rather than the current terr, the main target of a cath co. I think that the terr bs, etd fr and zik de who already statistically find it relatively easy to attack xan fr should be enough without adding to their their woes.

I fail to see how zik DE can "easily" attack xan fr seeing as the shadow fires before the clipper, unless the ziks are prepared to take big losses 1st, which i highly doubt as most ziks are value players....

[[B5]Londo]

if we assumed everyone attacked ppl who they hit first terr would be in trouble

though u r right i was looking at the spirits initiative; my mistake

[Gate]

Originally Posted by [B5]Londo

Presumably switching vips targeting would make xan, rather than the current terr, the main target of a cath co.

EMP efficiencies can be changed relatively easily... Peg & min E/R could be cut down so pure CO vs terran DE is similar to what it is now - keeping terran as a target. Similarly, cutter & spirit E/R could be played around with.

The effect vs cath/etd would be effectively zero and ter/xan/zik is fixable. I think this is a viable way of doing it.

I found this problem last round and ended up pinning all E/R targetting priorities together because I couldn't find a way around it (eg ALL EMP ships hit FI/CO rather than a mix of FI/CO and CO/FI).

I have no particular reason for opposing an fr/de killship except then it would be theoretically possible (if rather stupid) to be cat with largely kill shippies which is not what cat is about.

As long as it's kept to a defensive ship, I don't see the problem. FR/DE or BS seems most sensible.

My preference for cath has always been killships in defence, EMP in attack... this guarantees they will spend a significant proportion on EMP, keeping in 'style', & I think it's the best way we've found to minimise EMP's broken-ness.

[[B5]Londo]

presumably U could do the same by bringing down xan frigs e/r and not switching the targeting; whichever U do that too u make much more vulnerable to cat cr too, and this is about co. Why change the e/r of all fr/de when u could give the vip another gun

[Gate]

Originally Posted by [B5]Londo

presumably U could do the same by bringing down xan frigs e/r and not switching the targeting; whichever U do that too u make much more vulnerable to cat cr too, and this is about co. Why change the e/r of all fr/de when u could give the vip another gun

That sounds plausible. It would mean that vipers would work out phenominal at stunning spectres, gryphons and the like. Not sure if that's a problem or not.

Either way, I really do think cath CO need an improvement!


I think the mantis makes it very difficult for cath CO to look as good as CR. If you go for CR, you can spend a tiny amount of your resources on mantis and be immune to FI/CO and spend the rest on anti FR-thru-BS EMP ships. As a CO attacker you will end up investing significantly more resources in anti FI/CO and therefore be far weaker against FR-BS.

[Makhil]

Question about Cath CR:
do you think it's ok to build only Roach and Tara (discarding the scarabs) ?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Makhil

Question about Cath CR:
do you think it's ok to build only Roach and Tara (discarding the scarabs) ?

Scarabs stun broads directly, so you can hit etd CR/BS, they're a 'direct' route to stunning spectres (roach have to stun through xand FR first) and they're much better at stunning CR.

I think caths should really be building locust or scarab, but I haven't played around with a calc enough to form my opinion yet. I suspect that no loc or scarab will make you horribly vulnerable to CR, scarabs will be good in attack and scorps in defence. Hopefully someone's thought about it a lil more



In all honesty, I think the sheer number of cloaked anti CR could make caths struggle this round, because cath CR sucks at stunning spectre. A cut to its E/R might be in order!

[isildurx]

Is Roach strictly necessary? Is it not possible to build purely Tara,Scarab and Mantis or will this make you too open to FR?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Gate

In all honesty, I think the sheer number of cloaked anti CR could make caths struggle this round, because cath CR sucks at stunning spectre. A cut to its E/R might be in order!

I suggested this to appoco a few days ago actually but I haven't heard anything from him recently

To be honest I think most caths should, and will, use all of their cr ships. You'll end up prodding different ones to self-cover a lot of the time anyways.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Is Roach strictly necessary? Is it not possible to build purely Tara,Scarab and Mantis or will this make you too open to FR?

Scarab vs FR is laughable (less than 50% efficienT!) so you'd get raped by frigs as well as DE all round long (unless the mantis gets its t3=FR back)

IMO roach is the must have CR.



After some thinking, I'd seriously consider locust, roach, scarab & mantis. Defensively it should be better than pure CR/mantis, except vs etd BS.

Missing out the tarantula isn't necessarily that bad; the only BS->CR killship is the dragon, and you're better off avoiding terrans anyway. More scarabs and a ton of locust make you better at stopping incoming CR fleets, and give you more anti FR/DE stunning power too.

With the weakness of anti DE EMP, terrans and ziks are going to have a field day with you. I'd suggest that cutting the E/R of the ALL the DE->CR ships might be a good idea! (or swapping viper to FR/DE and weakening all DE E/Rs)


Right now I'm not sure which race I'd pick. I'd probably avoid cath (CO=bad, CR=too weak vs DE) and maybe etd (they've grown on me, but still have massive holes).

IMO the races (from strongest) are zik, xan, ter, cath/etd. I expect terran may perform slightly worse in rankings than one of the EMP races as there is a core of skilled players & defsinks who pick EMP. That is, unless terran BS attracts a load of new players!

[Buddah]

i really disagree with your strongest races, ranking xan as #2?
sure they got cloak, but their pretty fked exept for faking this round. Mantis and Cutter owns their fi/co. and their fr/de fleet is to vulnerable due to shitty spectre initiative imo. if one of their fleet was actually good roiding with id go xan anytime, but as xan this round youd have to hit easy targs/teamup alot, to get roids, and that leaves you with less roids and less xp

[isildurx]

Originally Posted by Gate

Scarab vs FR is laughable (less than 50% efficienT!) so you'd get raped by frigs as well as DE all round long (unless the mantis gets its t3=FR back)

My bad I had totally forgotten that Mantis had lost its T3 = FR :

[isildurx]

Care to elaborate on why Xan is stronger than terran Gate?

I was thinking of going Terran and focusing on DE but having a smaller(lets say 20% of my value) in BS so that I have the ability to fake. This means only having two classes of ships and that all my value is in attackclass.

[Cochese]

I'm thinking about doing the opposite isil

[isildurx]

And thus get wtfrapedinthe*** by fi\co?

[Cochese]

I don't foresee a shortage of anti-fi/co in the universe/galaxy/bp...rather than build mostly De with a little Bs, I'm thinking mostly Bs with some Pegs and a few De pods.

Covers Fi/Co, and gives a small secondary attack option.

[isildurx]

How does it stop cath co\xan fi teamups and large ziks with stolen fi\co?

[Cochese]

How does a De fleet stop Terran Bs, Cath Cr, or Xan Fr?

[isildurx]

How can someone get through that much flack? And if you do, it doesnt tend to be to hard to find some random fr\de flack ingal such as spectres.

Im usually top 50 value or higher all through the round, if almost all that value is in one shipclass and that shipclass targets everything its not gonna be easy to roid me.

[Colt]

Your going to be vulnerable to something whichever class and race u choose

[Cochese]

I'm certainly not questioning your skill as a player...I've known you too long for that.

My point was more that I think the mostly Bs plus Pegs/few De pods combo seems more appealing to me, personally. That could certainly change after ticks start, once we get a better look at race distributions and general fleet "trends".

I'm just not particularly impressed with the overall efficiencies of a pure Destroyer fleet...sure, it covers all classes--but does it do it particularly well? I'm sure I need to look at the stat martrices again, but in my limited experiments during the beta I wasn't especially impressed.

In all reality, I'll probably split things fairly evenly between De and Bs fleets, though putting more resources into Pegs than either Gryphons or Drakes.

[isildurx]

Well if i was possible to focus on BS as a ter i would do that

But unless there is close to no cath co fleets in the uni your going to have a VERY hard time surviving if all you build DE wise is pegs.

[RaZeR]

isil, if you're going mainly BS, you shouldnt really be building pegs as well cos they're useless for ally def...

Anyhoo, having not read quite all the posts in this thread, i have some suggestions to make xan slightly better...

Firstly the background justification for my tweaks:
Xan will be getting raped hard by BS/CR, due to the spectre's averageness. This means that to stop BS/CR you'll sensibly need about 40-50% of your fleetscore in spectres, OR an emp-heavy BP. Going with the spectres then, this means that you can only put half your fleetscore into a fighter attack fleet.
A pure fighter attack fleet allows you to hit:
Terran BS with few pegs
ETD with relatively few recluse
Cath CR with few mantis
Zik CR with few cutter (and not too many stolen beetles...)

So on the face of it that's not too bad. Most of those fleet choices are reasonably likely, although ETDs will probably have too many recluse. But then you look at how easy it would be to cover those attacks:
Terran has pegs, shooting same time as banshee and doing a LOT of damage...
Cath, mantis ofc. Even without that, beetles are very effective against xan fi, especially with phantom EMP-res 9 :/
Zik, cutters are even worse than pegs, but hopefully there wont be too many of them. Cutlass will be popular though, and phantoms are only just cost effective. Any emp in defence and the cutlass start to edge it, and the zik has salvage bonus as well.
ETD, well, IMO there are likely to be a LOT of recluse flying around, with ~170% efficiency vs xan fi.

So, all of these problems arent insurmountable, except for the fact that you need to suck up so much of your fleetscore with spectres. Of course you could try going without spectres, hoping for only small incs due to your lack of cover, then getting ingal def etc. But that's not really a reliable strategy for holding onto your roids. So your limited fighter fleet is likely going to be too small to hit players of a decent size, limiting your roidcap and xp.

Which brings me to the point - strengthen the xan fighter fleet slightly to allow it to hold it's own. Now the main problem for the fighter fleet is EMP. Beetles and Recluse own xan fi, terran and zik difficulties are overcomeable. Simply increasing the pitifully small emp resistance of the phantom to, say, 15, immediately makes a big difference to the viability of the fleet. I would also recommend increasing the armour of the spectre to 22 from 20. Xan ships are supposed to have low armour but shoot early, but the spectre shoots after a lof of other DE class ships, hell after a lot of bs/cr class ships, so it deserves slightly higher armour (note, still MUCH lower than the armour on other DE class ships)

So to summarise:
Phantom EMP res increase from 9 to 15
Spectre armour increase from 20 to 22

Thanks for reading!

BTW, for those who insist that the advantage xan gets from faking is enough to outweigh it's weaknesses, consider that faking only works if you have something scary to fake. In other words, who's going to be scared of a bark if you have no bite?

RaZeR

[isildurx]

Im not building ally def ships

[[B5]Londo]

Originally Posted by RaZeR

ETD, well, IMO there are likely to be a LOT of recluse flying around, with ~170% efficiency vs xan fi.

BTW, for those who insist that the advantage xan gets from faking is enough to outweigh it's weaknesses, consider that faking only works if you have something scary to fake. In other words, who's going to be scared of a bark if you have no bite?

RaZeR

each etd might have alot of recluse but, how often do we see a whole load of etd's? usually they r only 15% of the universe.
As for the beetle a 151% efficiency against the phant is good but hardly exceptional, have u not considered u fight the beet with the rev not the phant, using your banshees to absorb the emp?

As to faking, anything is scary enough in big enough numbers, U see lots of teams of xan fakes. Since the virtue of faking is it allows you to send 3 fleets that look like your full attack fleet even if U spend 50% of your income on specs you can still send out what looks like 150% of your value in attack, far more than anyone else, ofc as u can only sensibly hit someone half your size or so (without a team) the profits are lower than they used to be but it still seems a hefty advantage to me!

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Im not building ally def ships

Well there's a shocker for you.

[isildurx]

If thats not a shock then what is

[booji]

Originally Posted by RaZeR

I would also recommend increasing the armour of the spectre to 22 from 20. Xan ships are supposed to have low armour but shoot early, but the spectre shoots after a lof of other DE class ships, hell after a lot of bs/cr class ships, so it deserves slightly higher armour (note, still MUCH lower than the armour on other DE class ships)

I will admit that I have not been paying too much attention to the stats for next round so far, but so far I would not say that the spectre is underpowered, its armor/cost and damage cost is pretty good (better than any other xan ship to compensate for it firing later). I also think that due to it being a de ship it will be very effective, only the broadsword and the wyvern in terms of cr/bs ships target de as their primary target, all the others are therefore shooting at something else first and will be firing at lower efficiancies - how often do you get cat cr firing at the xan's primary anti bs ship at 70/73% efficiency?
even though spectres are 2nd target hitting cat cr they are hitting at an effectiveness only slightly lower I cant see cat cr doing very well after the initial few weeks in such a situation unless they have a terran bs partner as it will take very few spectres to stop them.
In short while the spectre may not be great against wyverns (note the wyvern has a very low damage cost so is not really massively effective) the spectre is very good against other races... as I guess it should be.

[RaZeR]

Originally Posted by [B5]Londo

each etd might have alot of recluse but, how often do we see a whole load of etd's? usually they r only 15% of the universe.

Yes, not too worried about ingal def from ETD, but not being able to hit them just further reduces your target availability...

Originally Posted by [B5]Londo

As for the beetle a 151% efficiency against the phant is good but hardly exceptional, have u not considered u fight the beet with the rev not the phant, using your banshees to absorb the emp?

Couple of problems with this; firstly building revenants means you have fewer fi, so you're definitely not going to roid, and also the mantis targets revenants first so you're going to lose quite a lot. It is an option, however, as it would be good against terran DE as well, but it's just another shiptype you have to build, and the main problem is it brings the mantis into the game even more...

Originally Posted by [B5]Londo

As to faking, anything is scary enough in big enough numbers, U see lots of teams of xan fakes. Since the virtue of faking is it allows you to send 3 fleets that look like your full attack fleet even if U spend 50% of your income on specs you can still send out what looks like 150% of your value in attack, far more than anyone else, ofc as u can only sensibly hit someone half your size or so (without a team) the profits are lower than they used to be but it still seems a hefty advantage to me!

Generally I would have thought that most people wont be sending 3 fleets to attack, as they'll keep one back for ally def, which means you have a pretty similar attacking strength as other races, in terms of fleetscore. However, your fleetscore happens to be pretty easy to stop, unfortunately But yeah, generally you're right. You cant hit big planets without teamup, which means you cap less and get less XP, even though your entire fleetscore is in 1 class...

[RaZeR]

Originally Posted by booji

In short while the spectre may not be great against wyverns (note the wyvern has a very low damage cost so is not really massively effective) the spectre is very good against other races... as I guess it should be.

Unfortunately the wyvern still has a 70% cost effectiveness against spectres, which means you need AT LEAST the same fleetscore in spectres as they have in wyverns to start achieving anything, as they wyverns shoot first. Coupled with the ter BS emp-res, it means that even with emp def it's STILL pretty hard to stop them with spectres...

The spectre is pretty good against Cath, yes, although generally i think there will be quite a lot of scarabs/roach around, which make it harder. Plus if they teamup, which cath usually do, then you're not going to have enough spectres to get through the EMP AND the ships shooting first...

I do admit that cath will have a bit of a hard time, simply due to the obscene number of spectres that xan players will need to build, however increasing the armour of the spectre actually helps cath here, as it makes no difference to them, but might mean xan players build fewer, because they live a bit longer!

[booji]

no race has the capability to 1, stop all the other races and 2, stop teamups... you generally have to count on getting some defence.

xans have almost always had to build huge amounts of their anti cr/bs defence, often as much as you are likely to need to this round, in round 26 the problem was that cat's froze enormous numbers of bombers, this round it is the wyvern firing before spectres... other races have similar flaws, we will just have to live with it

[RaZeR]

Acknowledged, but the problem this time is that you have a huge, glaring defensive weakness, AND your attack fleet is crap :P
Rather than completely fix one of these problems, i'm suggesting partial, minor fixes to both, overall making xan more competitive...

[booji]

it partially depends how many ppl make use of their huge defensive weakness, I thought that last round xan had an potentially immense problem with de, however as so few cats and terrans went de, and the sheer mass of banshees flying around in defence it turned out not too be too much of a problem for them. This round the wyvern is likely to be a problem, but any terran who goes for a bs fleet is as open to your xan fi/co as you are too his wyverns so you are likely to be swapping roids (what pa seems to be about) so I dont see and real problem!!

[[B5]Londo]

Originally Posted by RaZeR

Couple of problems with this; firstly building revenants means you have fewer fi, so you're definitely not going to roid, and also the mantis targets revenants first so you're going to lose quite a lot. It is an option, however, as it would be good against terran DE as well, but it's just another shiptype you have to build, and the main problem is it brings the mantis into the game even more...

fi/co is a common and perfectly acceptable teamup, particularly as one of ur speculative targets is terran with few pegs, revs will be the terror of pegs cos they kill em first, which far outweighs the reduced number of fi u have total in that instance, if u are worring about the fact u have fewer fi in an attack fleet because u have say 25% of it in co then Im wondering how u play because the implication is that because u have 25% fewer fi u wont get through - R U expecting to land unless ur opponent kills 75% of ur fi fleet?
Mantis are a problem, which nothing can be done about, if U R thinking of landing on mantises u have already accepted a certain amount of losses. If U R hitting a cat cr with NO beets u wont need a huge amount of fi anyway leave the co at home and the difference is then marginal, the mantis kill the same however many u send, send a billion the mantis will still be there and kill some, if the guy has beets then the revs are positively helpful in scaring away those beets, i dont see the problem here.

Originally Posted by RaZeR

Generally I would have thought that most people wont be sending 3 fleets to attack, as they'll keep one back for ally def, which means you have a pretty similar attacking strength as other races, in terms of fleetscore. However, your fleetscore happens to be pretty easy to stop, unfortunately But yeah, generally you're right. You cant hit big planets without teamup, which means you cap less and get less XP, even though your entire fleetscore is in 1 class...

complain about sending a feet in defence all U want cos all that does is reduce you to 100% where everyone else sends a fleet that reduces them further the end result is pretty much the same. The fact that your fleetscore is pretty easy to stop I have already addressed with the teamup, you cap less and get less xp, well send 2 or 3, thats the virtue of the fake as i said before. This round is kind of unusual in having so many races able to concetrate so much on their attack force, its is perfectly normal to attack with 50% of your fleetscore, I did that all last round.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Care to elaborate on why Xan is stronger than terran Gate?

I'm not sure whether I think they are or not now.

Pure DE is nice, but does very little damage to some fleets, ghosts/xan cloaked def could be annoying & it's hard to get targets. Terran/zik is very nice, if you can persuade a zik to build DE.

BS is hot but opens you to FI/CO, though there shouldn't be too many of them around anyway.

I'm starting to think xands are weaker than I assumed, mainly because of the banshee and lack of a good way to nullify wyvern with def (widows are nice but how many are we likely to see?). Every xand that goes FR needs banshees, they'll always be available for defence, and they're best against xand FR.



I suspect the cloak of xan and their strength against various other fleets will see them through, guaranteeing plenty of big xands. A lot depends on race composition; if the good players go terran then we'll have lots of BS and little anti BS in the uni. If lots go xan then we'll have lots of anti BS and little BS. In a terran-heavy uni, terrans should dominate, in xand-heavy, I expect xands will dominate.

[isildurx]

Yeah thats how it always is though, and atm it would seem we will have some of both.
FR xans main enemies are obviously etd FR and Terran BS. The threat of Terran BS can probably be reduced quite a bit by having a high proportion(40% atleast) of your fleet as spectre as i assume many xans will do. In addition to this there is likely to be quite a bit of FR\DE class anti BS around so unless a high propertion of the unis Terrans focus on BS then xans should manage.
The etd FR will probably have more of a easy ride, but its EMP and finding fi\co flack does not tend to be the hardest thing in the game if your active.

As for Terrans focusing on BS, this is in my opinion a very risky strategy. There is bound to be alot of xans having a substantial FI\CO fleet, and i assume there will also be some cath co and zik co fleets around as usual even if cath cr\bs is so awesome.

[Makhil]

If the Spectre is considered a good anti BS despite its bad init, then surely the Harpy is as good (if not better) as an anti Fi-Co.
If Xans are to build loads of Revs and Spectre, the Harpy will have to face fewer Fi (and it's not targeted by Revs).

[Onim]

you forget that the wyvern has one of the worst damage/cost efficiencys while spectre has one of the best (its the most effective conventional killship, and 3rd in rank if u take corsairs and cutlass' into consideration)
whereas the harpy , even with its nice armour, compared to above 2 ships, is less effective when put against wraiths (not to mention phantoms) than the spectre is when its put against wyverns, taking into consideration the init advantage.

and i almost forget another important thing: spectre has eta advantage over its targets, while harpy is same eta as its target, and we all know how important an extra hour is when u need def from your alliance.

[Makhil]

When i do bcalcs, for the same fleet values:
- for a 300k value loss in harpy, the phant losses are 900k
- for a 500k value loss in spectre, the wyvern losses are 500k

Xans going FI, they need revs and they need spectre... now you're saying they'll have to build wraith too. That's Xan's weakness this round, they can't concentrate on a few ships.
A Ter building Wyvern-Dragon-Harpy will be able to build more of each and be stronger vs a Xan who has to spread its res over more ships types and classes.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Makhil

When i do bcalcs, for the same fleet values:
- for a 300k value loss in harpy, the phant losses are 900k
- for a 500k value loss in spectre, the wyvern losses are 500k

Xans going FI, they need revs and they need spectre... now you're saying they'll have to build wraith too. That's Xan's weakness this round, they can't concentrate on a few ships.
A Ter building Wyvern-Dragon-Harpy will be able to build more of each and be stronger vs a Xan who has to spread its res over more ships types and classes.

Also note that the spectre is cloaked, has 2 ticks to be gathered & is useful against 4 attack fleets (especially CR), the harpy is only useful against 2 attack fleets, which are quite easy to stop ingal.

The harpy may well be better against xand FI than the wyvern is against spectre, but that's not the only variable.