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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 16:48   #1
Patrikc
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Covops

Is it me, or have Covert Ops been especially annoying so far this round? I for one know someone lost all (5+) dists while sleeping.

I've never cared much for Covops, I've used Ship Sabotage a few times, sure, but I wouldn't really mind it if it was deleted.

This isn't a plea to get it deleted, apparently quite a few people enjoy cov-opping, I'm just looking to find some "balance" between both playing styles without having to spend 600k of each resource on Guards. :/
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 16:50   #2
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Re: Covops

There's your balance, if you think its worth spending 600k res on guards.. Then spend it
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 16:52   #3
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Re: Covops

Depends how you define balance. It's not like cov-opping is gonna get you a good rank or anything.

But while we're on the subject it would be nice if the history page kept track of the results of your cov ops (ie. how much you stole, what you destroyed, etc). Also, it would be nice if the guard killing and ship destroying cov ops could get a small boost!

Also, it would be nice if the cov op ranking somehow took into account the impact your covops have, instead of just the amount of cov ops you do. Obviously you can easily do a bunch of 5 agent cov ops, but it wont have the same impact as a 60 agent havoc!
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Last edited by Linkie; 30 Apr 2009 at 16:58.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 16:55   #4
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
There's your balance, if you think its worth spending 600k res on guards.. Then spend it
It's not worth spending THAT much, but what choice does one have?
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 17:53   #5
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Re: Covops

in all honesty, it is extremely easy to be immune to covert ops - which was not always the case. the effectiveness and number of targets really falls off around tick 300 or so. then it becomes too much trouble to find decent targets and people are basically left to op new sign ups just to keep their ranking up.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 17:54   #6
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Re: Covops

HI LINKIE, HI PATRIKC.

I miss my 5 dists, my 1 amp and 10 of my roids.

It has to be say I hate cov ops, I can't get my head around having to pay around 500K of each res for just 2.5k guards, which brings my alert to a somewhat decent level now, but later - well once I have 2x roids - I'll need more. So if the initial cost isn't a killer I have to then spend 5000 of each resource per tick, every tick for the rest of the round. That will quickly become way more damaging (in my opinion) than any cov op missions would do, the problem is, covops come in a short damaging burst so you do NEED sec guards every now and then, however firing them is a total waste of resources, keeping them is, oh, a total waste of resources.

You just can't win, it's utterly ****ing awful and I hate it. At least I don't have to wait for 8 ticks any more while I lose all my constructions from protection (just a bummer if you're asleep when the 1st one hits).

I'm not saying I know how to fix it - but ships don't require maintenance. Why must I pay wages, sure it might get easy to get immune but who cares, cov ops is evil. EVIL. Just give scanners a better thing to do during the round, or better yet, remove the need for scanners by introducing one of the many suggested replacement systems.

(I probably made a few mistakes, and took no consideration for the other side of the debate, but I needed to vent some rage )

I just noticed resource statistics, you should add cov op wages to that so a few people like me can go emo on the last tick of the round when 10% of there value is in a space void.
Code:
	Covert Guards Metal	500,000	
	Covert Guards Crystal	500,000	
	Covert Guards Eonium	500,000
^^ADD WAGES :D
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 18:28   #7
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Re: Covops

Go dictatorship and just toggle population as needed into security. Has worked for me the last two rounds. I've stopped about 80% of all hacks that way (and I got hacked a lot because it looked like I had no defense against covert ops). You loose out on a small mining bonus over feud but the saved resources from not having to build sec center or guards makes up for it.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 18:33   #8
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Re: Covops

Dictatorship has indeed become a lot more appealing, though the -10% Research really stings the first x00 ticks... And after the "huge" salvage nerf it might even be better than Feud.

Last round I needed about 14k Guards for ~3k roids, with 50% on population (though with only 3-4% sec centres). That's 2.8m of each res + 28k of each resource per tick, for about 2-3 weeks.

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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 19:06   #9
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Re: Covops

Having 3 times your roids in guards, plus 40% pop is all that's needed for good alert. People won't bother if 60-70% of their cov ops fail, it's simply not worth it. 40% pop and 21% SCs also works, though I wouldn't recommend it for late round, having 32 SCs is takes up too much construction space, let alone the cost. Early on, when pop is needed for research, having 3 times your roids in guards and 20% SCs is a very viable strategy.

In short, no, cov ops is not overpowered.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 08:57   #10
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
In short, no, cov ops is not overpowered.
If anything, it's underpowered.
It just annoys me that people who have no intention of playing the game seriously (and to be clear, playing seriously imo means building fleet and roiding etc), can fk someone up for no real reason other than that they can, forcing you to spend resources that you'd otherwise spend to "play seriously".
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Unread 1 May 2009, 09:57   #11
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Re: Covops

Getting "****ed up" is part of the game, I'm not sure why you're angry. As for "playing seriously", who are you to tell me how to play the game?
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Unread 1 May 2009, 12:19   #12
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Getting "****ed up" is part of the game, I'm not sure why you're angry. As for "playing seriously", who are you to tell me how to play the game?
He is Patrikc, and HE is an above average player.



No but seriously, cov ops suck.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 14:04   #13
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Re: Covops

Would changing cov-ops to "time to target" based instead of instant be worth it?
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Unread 1 May 2009, 14:27   #14
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Re: Covops

I don't see what it'd add.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 15:57   #15
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Re: Covops

Hmm I thought about what Mr Lobster said, was about to post something then had some spring to mind.

Why don't you just limit covert operations. You can't attack someone below your bash limit and you can only steal 25% of their roids, so would it be wrong to make cov ops similar to this:

a) You can't hit a certain person twice in xx tick period.
b) You can only destroy xx% of their constructions/asteroids per day.

I've put no thought into making this fair so feel free to elaborate on it or dismiss it at your own free will.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 16:04   #16
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Hmm I thought about what Mr Lobster said, was about to post something then had some spring to mind.

Why don't you just limit covert operations. You can't attack someone below your bash limit and you can only steal 25% of their roids, so would it be wrong to make cov ops similar to this:

a) You can't hit a certain person twice in xx tick period.
b) You can only destroy xx% of their constructions/asteroids per day.

I've put no thought into making this fair so feel free to elaborate on it or dismiss it at your own free will.
But you can attack people twice in a day, the only thing stopping more is ETA, I'll take your suggestion and expand it slightly if thats ok.

How about not limiting the number of times you can hit someone but having a recharge time on the covert ops. so takes 4 ticks to recharge a covert op etc...just a thought.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 18:02   #17
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Re: Covops

You can't compare cov ops to attacking, simply because you can become immune to all cov ops.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 18:53   #18
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
If anything, it's underpowered.
It just annoys me that people who have no intention of playing the game seriously (and to be clear, playing seriously imo means building fleet and roiding etc), can fk someone up for no real reason other than that they can, forcing you to spend resources that you'd otherwise spend to "play seriously".
and people who build mass sk's do it for the reason that they can. should those be removed too? or better yet, can we have a slider button and guards that make us immune from them?
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Unread 1 May 2009, 19:43   #19
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
You can't compare cov ops to attacking, simply because you can become immune to all cov ops.
Agreed, also just because you create a rule that says one person can only covert op you every so often doesn't stop team ups etc. Honestly the current system works pretty well, anyone that wants to avoid being covert opped can, it just costs resources to do so. This also creates a way that smaller players can attack bigger players who they could never hit with ships and thereby get their "revenge" also it helps balance the game in my opinion.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 20:22   #20
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
and people who build mass sk's do it for the reason that they can. should those be removed too? or better yet, can we have a slider button and guards that make us immune from them?
In all honesty though, SKs can be defended against.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 20:28   #21
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Re: Covops

Ive been cov-op'd afew times.

It annoyed me enough, that i spent the resources and construction time on highering my alert. Cov-op's isnt a major problem, especially if the majority of the time people are cov-op'ing the active's/top players.

If its a case of cov-oping newbies/inactives, then i'd agree something needs to change.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 20:39   #22
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
If its a case of cov-oping newbies/inactives, then i'd agree something needs to change.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 21:31   #23
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
In all honesty though, SKs can be defended against.
I'm glad you find that important, because so can cov ops.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 21:53   #24
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Re: Covops

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I'm glad you find that important, because so can cov ops.
You don't get the 8+ ticks warning though

Granted, you can be immune, but Xan @ Unification it's damn expensive.

Obviously I'm being selfish and thinking only of myself but hey I lost 50 ticks of construction!

I'm not too bothered but I still don't think you should be able to repeat covop the same planets.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 22:12   #25
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Re: Covops

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Getting "****ed up" is part of the game, I'm not sure why you're angry. As for "playing seriously", who are you to tell me how to play the game?
I'm not telling you how to play the game, I am telling how the game should be. Note the "imo"?
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Unread 1 May 2009, 22:59   #26
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Re: Covops

Even though I'm using covert ops, I have to admit they're annoying as well. To be fair though - the complaints in this thread are probably regarding someone who didn't bother to change any of their security settings.

They could do with reworking to become useful tools instead of just annoying little attacks which piss people off if they're the victim.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 23:20   #27
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Re: Covops

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I'm not telling you how to play the game, I am telling how the game should be. Note the "imo"?
Go play SimPlanet.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 May 2009, 06:42   #28
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Re: Covops

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You don't get the 8+ ticks warning though
It wouldn't be particulary "covert" if you were given 8 hours warning before it occured dude.
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Unread 2 May 2009, 06:43   #29
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Re: Covops

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It wouldn't be particulary "covert" if you were given 8 hours warning before it occured dude.
Read my posts, was I in anyway suggesting such a thing?
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Unread 2 May 2009, 08:44   #30
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Re: Covops

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If anything, it's underpowered.
The 12 succsessful science hacks against me so far beg to differ.
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Unread 2 May 2009, 09:34   #31
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Re: Covops

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The 12 succsessful science hacks against me so far beg to differ.
And what did the covopper gain by that? 200 Xp? Woohoo!

(and yes I had the same problem we could totally be bffs!!)

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Go play SimPlanet.
Link?

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Unread 2 May 2009, 10:43   #32
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Re: Covops

I think the alertness needs to be fixed. Someone can utterly rape you, then come back 2 ticks time and do it all again. Theres got to be somewhat of a balance between making covops a viable playing model, and allowing a planet not to be totally decimated by another (without repsisal!) in the matter of hours.
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Unread 2 May 2009, 10:45   #33
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
And what did the covopper gain by that? 200 Xp? Woohoo!

(and yes I had the same problem we could totally be bffs!!)



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If abused by a highly skilled tag, research hacks could prevent the remaining universe from building a fleet

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Can people please stop pretending they have no chance of winning at tick 300, you just end up looking retarded later.
^^^^ Can you blv that sh*t?
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Unread 2 May 2009, 10:47   #34
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Re: Covops

No they can't, you can't covop during protection.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 06:54   #35
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Re: Covops

and you can pause your research during the tick and resume it before the next tick causing the covert op to succeed but not affect anything.

it is way too easy to become immune to covert ops, and i laugh very hard every time i see someone on 200 roids with 2500+ guards. i'm halfway tempted to make a thread suggesting to just get rid of them if the current easy immune system is going to stick around.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 10:03   #36
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Re: Covops

I'd like it if you could do a scan that told you a planet's current Alert Level!
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Unread 15 May 2009, 10:52   #37
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Re: Covops

guys try covopping properly before making those crappy ideas
covopping never been so difficult especially with the guards initiated same tick (no training etc).
i d suggest removing security guards=P
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Unread 15 May 2009, 12:32   #38
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Re: Covops

Cov Ops have been fun this round, If anything I would make guards wages proportional to the planets value.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 12:47   #39
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Cov Ops have been fun this round, If anything I would make guards wages proportional to the planets value.
OO hey paisley, you just came back this round?

subh reformation on way?
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Unread 15 May 2009, 13:33   #40
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Re: Covops

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OO hey paisley, you just came back this round?

subh reformation on way?
#het sara sara whatever will be, will be#

I doubt it mate.... going a bit off topic

to me cov ops are something to do in between roiding if done right it can be a nice source of income (aswell as xp)
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Unread 15 May 2009, 15:20   #41
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Re: Covops

People who complain about covert ops deserve to be havoc'ed repeatedly.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 16:33   #42
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Cov Ops have been fun this round, If anything I would make guards wages proportional to the planets value.
This is why I despair sometimes. Guard wages already are proportional to planets in that the more roids you have, the more guards you need.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

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Unread 15 May 2009, 21:11   #43
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Re: Covops

don t use guards heh. invest in security centres
i just laugh at the owner of 1k+ roids who waste res on 1200-3000 guards
any big guy can affod immunity in one way or another*sigh*
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Unread 16 May 2009, 15:56   #44
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is why I despair sometimes. Guard wages already are proportional to planets in that the more roids you have, the more guards you need.
What I am saying is that the formula can use some tweaking in incorporate value as well as roids depending on the type of cov op. ie bank hacks. mainly as a means of attacking stockpilers who stack up resources independent of the roid count. and the likes of blowing up roids should be proportial to roid count ie if you blow up say 1% of the roid count instead of a fixed figure as an example.
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Unread 16 May 2009, 17:12   #45
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
What I am saying is that the formula can use some tweaking in incorporate value as well as roids depending on the type of cov op. ie bank hacks.
I don't think you actually know what you're talking about. Alert is not cov op specific, nor should it be.

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
mainly as a means of attacking stockpilers who stack up resources independent of the roid count.
What does this mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
and the likes of blowing up roids should be proportial to roid count ie if you blow up say 1% of the roid count instead of a fixed figure as an example.
This is largely a matter of opinion. Personally I don't see the point in destroying roids when it is much more profitable to steal them. Generally speaking, it's an interesting proposal though.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 16 May 2009, 20:36   #46
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think you actually know what you're talking about. Alert is not cov op specific, nor should it be.
Quite simple really

the amount of resources that you steal is based apon your value and the targets/attackers value. what i am suggesting that the formula is tweaked to incorporate the percentage of that to be tweaked such in a way that if you are trying to bank hack a smaller planet for example it should be made a lower chance of success but if the target is larger then there should be a higher chance of success. wether it is agreed to or not is a matter of opinion.

same way that if you have more roids you need more guards to keep the relatively same amount of alert level.... What I am suggeting is make it more specific to blowing up roids.

if you have more ships then you should need more guards ie value... but what I am suggesting is make it more specific to blowing up ships.

although this would mean having multiple alert levels so to speak
This would mean making cov ops more interesting in terms of choosing resistances / choosing targets.

But that is my opinion though.
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Unread 16 May 2009, 22:00   #47
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Re: Covops

can you say that in English? you just said to make it specific to like 3 different things in one post. which one are you saying to do?
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Unread 16 May 2009, 22:19   #48
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Re: Covops

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
the amount of resources that you steal is based apon your value and the targets/attackers value. what i am suggesting that the formula is tweaked to incorporate the percentage of that to be tweaked such in a way that if you are trying to bank hack a smaller planet for example it should be made a lower chance of success but if the target is larger then there should be a higher chance of success. wether it is agreed to or not is a matter of opinion.
I was right, you don't know what you're talking about. Bank hacking small planets yields smaller profits already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
same way that if you have more roids you need more guards to keep the relatively same amount of alert level....
Oh yeah, I was definitely right. You already need more guards when you have more roids.

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
although this would mean having multiple alert levels so to speak
This would mean making cov ops more interesting in terms of choosing resistances / choosing targets.
Breaks KISS, adds nothing, no it wouldn't.
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Unread 16 May 2009, 22:54   #49
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Re: Covops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I was right, you don't know what you're talking about. Bank hacking small planets yields smaller profits already.
I am suggesting augmenting the yield in a cov-op MORE than it is now.
high value means more res, low value means less.

I think you are just reading what you want to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Oh yeah, I was definitely right. You already need more guards when you have more roids.
I was refering to a specific cov op operation like blowing up roids, but not for all cov ops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
adds nothing, no it wouldn't.
Pretty presumptious without looking into beta testing.
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Unread 16 May 2009, 23:23   #50
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Re: Covops

maybe what he's saying is that resource hacks should be based on target's value alone, and not the relationship between your value and your target's value?
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