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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 14:02   #1
Kargool
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Why aren't wars between alliances as profitable as before?

We've seen some endless rants as to the argument, not enough action going on, and its become a game where roidswap and resource hoarding is the only level of play.

Allthough I mostly disagree and find the current game still quite exciting, I do remember the times when if you lose your ships, it took you a while to rebuild. Whereas im sure that this keeps more players playing, I also feel that the easy to replace lost ships is dulling the game somewhat.

A couple of arguments:

First off, roidoutput on each planet is significally higher than before. This is good in one way, because there are more ships around, but also not good in regards of the whole picture, as it isnt really making a dent in anyone anymore if they lose their ships. They can just shrug it off and rebuild a lot quicker than before.

Hitting alliances does no longer require much skill, as the bc's can just add a few targets on a hitlist and then people can send and attack, one of the reasons for this becoming less fun is that it takes less skill to actually identify a planet as 1 certain alliance. The reasons for this is not only that there has started to become a few public places where you can find alliance intel, but also the fact that everyone knows everyone, and the small size of the community makes it a more transperant and easy access community where you can get pretty much every bit of intel if you do some work for it. This used to be harder than it is atm.

How can alliance wars become abit more enticing? should value be kept out of the equation when summing up between alliances?

how about a scoresystem (for alliances) that is more focused on war efforts rather than endless stockpiling and a bit of xp now and then? Any ideas?
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 14:16   #2
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

The fact that rounds are only 7 weeks these days is probably playing a big role. Not really in the mood for making a long post, so you'll have to think of the why and how for yourself.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 14:24   #3
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Personally I consider "wars not paying off" as one of the biggest myths this game has ever seen. I do agree that wars are less profitable than in the past due to shorter rounds, but XP and the higher roid output you mentioned is actually helping to somewhat balance out the shorter rounds.

Why the higher roid output is actually in favour of a war? Simple, if you can take a significant amount of asteroids from your enemy and as such get a roid lead over him you are automatically gaining a lot more resources from him.

The main issue from my observations is quite simply that the alliances themselves are unwilled to actually act properly in order to wage a war. This might be related to an increasing amount of demotivated people which keep on playing the game for whatever reason, but certainly not for anyones and their own entertainment (seriously, how sad must someone be that gets excited by simply seeing his planet grow but never lose anything?). Add in that todays "top alliances" prefer to harbour a huge amount of planet-nappers it becomes also quite hard to perform an efficient strike against your enemy.

I am still convinced that if one alliance would put their mind on winning a round by beating their opposition in a war then they would win by a large lead over the rest of the universe. Yet I can see that there might have to be a reason for motivating alliances to go to war, and yes, I do even agree that it might be achievable by using something different than accumulated planet scores as the overall alliance score.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 14:57   #4
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Personally I consider "wars not paying off" as one of the biggest myths this game has ever seen.
QFT


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
The main issue from my observations is quite simply that the alliances themselves are unwilled to actually act properly in order to wage a war. This might be related to an increasing amount of demotivated people which keep on playing the game for whatever reason, but certainly not for anyones and their own entertainment (seriously, how sad must someone be that gets excited by simply seeing his planet grow but never lose anything?). Add in that todays "top alliances" prefer to harbour a huge amount of planet-nappers it becomes also quite hard to perform an efficient strike against your enemy.

I am still convinced that if one alliance would put their mind on winning a round by beating their opposition in a war then they would win by a large lead over the rest of the universe. Yet I can see that there might have to be a reason for motivating alliances to go to war, and yes, I do even agree that it might be achievable by using something different than accumulated planet scores as the overall alliance score.
tbh it's not the lack of wars between the top 2/3 alliances thats the 'problem' so to speak. It's the feeling amongst the other top 10 alliances that they don't have to get involved in the wars. It's far more beneficial for them to avoid as much incoming as possible and secure themselves the best possible rank. This has been made more apparent in the last few rounds by the smaller difference in skill levels between alliances, as alliances who have spent a significant proportion of the round activly targetting each other find themselves in a much worse position compared to those who have avoided incoming the best. The focus has shifted from activly trying to get rid of the competition to hoping they leave you alone for as long as possible.

Like you said, the main point is that their is no real motivation for alliances not competing for #1 to engage in wars, which due to a combination of factors puts them at a distinct advantage over alliances that do.

What we need is a good block war

As for how to improve this, i'd quite like for alliance rankings to be based round the interaction between allainces themselves, rather than who can get the most score intag.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 15:24   #5
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
It's the feeling amongst the other top 10 alliances that they don't have to get involved in the wars.
Exactly. What the hell do they have to gain from it?
Next time you want us to help YOU get to no.1, make sure you've helped us to get there first (ideally multiple times), or f**k off and earn it yourself.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 15:30   #6
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Exactly. What the hell do they have to gain from it?
Next time you want us to help YOU get to no.1, make sure you've helped us to get there first (ideally multiple times), or f**k off and earn it yourself.
pretty much my point

the required effort involved means that you need a tangible reason, more so than just for shits and giggles.

Edit: not to go too offtopic but their is a pretty good arguement for alliances to get involved in conflicts that don't directly involve them, as the 2(?) allainces would concentrate on each other allowing you to pick up easy roids, tho this would certainly discourage alliances to take the plunge in the first place.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 17:37   #7
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Ok I have a suggestion as to how to make wars more enticing. You create a page in the alliance page which allows the HC to decide what its position is towards each other alliance in the game. At the start of the round it will be set to neutral with all the alliances and from then on it can declare war on any alliance by using that page. However there are some restrictions:

1) You could only be at war with say three other alliances
2) You cannot change your status towards alliances until 72 ticks after the last change.

So what does is mean if your at war with another ally. The alliance score system would be changed so that the alliance score is the sum of the members score + 60*alliance xp. The alliance would get the xp that any planet in its alliance gains when attacking a planet in a designated enemy alliance as well as the attacking planet also gaining that xp.

This possibly should be in suggestions but i thought it was relevant to this thread
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 23:58   #8
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Suggested before, dismissed as an overtly restrictive measure with few true benefits, search the forums to find threads on the issue.


On topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
One of the main reasons that the alliance rankings are so tight these days is because rounds are so short. There isn't time to recover from a full-on war (the type that 1up and eXilition used to have) for the winner or the loser, so instead we see a roid race where alliances target galaxies for most of the round.

Sure, there's planet targetting on and off between the main alliances, but it's evident that there's just not enough time for wars to be profitable. You win a two week war, your reserves are sapped but you're ready to start fighting your way back up the rankings having taken down your main competitor.....and suddenly the round's over. Damn, we finished 2nd while a fence-sitting alliance took 1st.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...03#post3117003
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Unread 1 Aug 2007, 11:28   #9
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Hitting alliances does no longer require much skill, as the bc's can just add a few targets on a hitlist and then people can send and attack, one of the reasons for this becoming less fun is that it takes less skill to actually identify a planet as 1 certain alliance. The reasons for this is not only that there has started to become a few public places where you can find alliance intel, but also the fact that everyone knows everyone, and the small size of the community makes it a more transperant and easy access community where you can get pretty much every bit of intel if you do some work for it. This used to be harder than it is atm.
I don't think availability of targetting information makes alliance wars more or less profitable, at least in real terms.

Maybe it means that better informed alliances no longer have the ability to dominate and flatten less well informed alliances, or possibly reduces the feeling of satisfaction intel staff get, but it doesn't seem like something that should reduce war damage.
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Unread 1 Aug 2007, 20:15   #10
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

The main reason wars aren't 'profitable' is because alliances these days don't choose to play in that style or can't find the members to do so.
Personal gain and short term profit is in the way here.
Which is the main motivation for top players, as far as I've seen it progress throughout the rounds.
If you manage to carefully pick members who just do what they're told, have high stamina and morale, wars are profitable. (Like 1up r11/12, eXi r13/15, etc.)
This however is a pain in the ass because most of the players these days won't bother to put in the effort or are just plain selfish.

The problems are not the game or it's conditions, but the players themselves.
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Unread 1 Aug 2007, 21:58   #11
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
The problems are not the game or it's conditions, but the players themselves.
Well, in terms of score it isn't a big secret that as a player you don't have to do alot to get a reasonable score. The fact alliance scores are made up from individual players their scores, means the "easiest" way of getting a good rank, is by supplying the members the easiest way of accumulating score. Really outscoring all your potential enemies for a win requires alot of work, considering the high possibilty of a uninvolved alliance outroiding/scoring you through galaxy raids (since prelaunch and single targetting basicly allow anyone who puts in a little effort to grow decent value). Full out war currently is simply to risky since its to easy for other, less active/skilled/willing players to accumulate similar or higher scores and values in the same time, and there is little point in beating one enemy down if 1 or more outgrow/catch up. Although i do agree that there seem to be quite few players out there more interested in getting a big planet themselves, rather than supplying their planet as a tool for the alliance to reach its goals .
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Unread 1 Aug 2007, 22:06   #12
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Essentially the influence of "battle groups" has become increased. Battle groups were always full of players who were solely concerned about how many roids they had. They were extremely selfish and just ****ed up their alliance's chance in a war (by saving defence for each other and attacking the best targets), while always demanding defence from that alliance. Essentially alliances have become what battle groups were. Some may agree/disagree, but for an external observer with a touch of hindsight, 1up turned gradually from an alliance to a battlegroup. Meanwhile Exilition came as an alliance, a unit and it's why they kept winning.

So I agree with Stoom; it is the player's fault.(And it's fantastic to see him too, it has been some time :)) It still pays to be very aggressive, Ascendancy's outstanding growth when we did so last round is testament to it.
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Unread 1 Aug 2007, 22:21   #13
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

I also think that alliance loyalty is lower in the set of alliances we have now than we had 10 rounds ago. A lot of people have been with various alliances and have never really grown into one, im not saying that its because they are disloyal, its just too many players not putting their alliance's needs first.. That saddens me a lot, but alas, thats how the game has developed and its less and less fun having to deal with people who does not understand why they should prioritize their alliance in front of their own planet.
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Unread 2 Aug 2007, 09:41   #14
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
So I agree with Stoom; it is the player's fault.
I will jump into this bandwagon. It comes down to the distinctive characteristics the players nowadays have. There's been talk about mercenaries, alliance loyalties (which Kargool just mentioned), and such. Being a nomad myself, I've been to both edges of the sword. I've spent hours and hours putting up an alliance, and working it out, and on the other hand, I've spent time under the mercenary tag too. The thing is, even if alliances (as factions dictated by their leaders' interests) would be interested in waging wars, and hammering their enemies, it's not necessarily plausible. A large chunk of an alliance's memberbase today (especially applies to the top) consists of various mercenaries. It's the core of the problem.

These mercenaries are mainly interested in things that involve directly benefiting their planet. They're around in the alliance to get served, not to serve - and old Fury recruitment pamphlet, possibly Wrath rules or something, used to say that the alliance is no charity. It's quite the contrary today. The greatest sorrows for alliance members are often related to the services the alliance provides. If there's no scanner, there's going to be cringe - instead of people stepping up for their alliance and mounting their planets as scanners. If there's no defence commander online, there's going to be cringe - the mercs want to wake up for five minutes, launch their fleets, and go back to sleep - that is, if they want to wake up at all. If there's no fat enough targets, there's going to be cringe. There are fewer people who are willing to put their planets in line, and work (in terms of real life hours, instead of idle hands) for the alliance. The blunt facts are, waging wars requires dedicated hard-working people. Few alliances can mustle up the necessary components. It's not of the alliances themselves to blame. There just is no material.

The material prefers to sleep, fencesit, and score the "easy" and "boring" way.
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Unread 2 Aug 2007, 10:11   #15
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
It's not of the alliances themselves to blame. There just is no material.
I agree with everything except the line that I quoted, for the simple reason that an alliance itself could ensure they won't recruit mercenaries, i.e. they just kick them if necessary.
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Unread 2 Aug 2007, 10:47   #16
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Yeah. That's possible, true, for most cases, it'd mean quite a little bit of dirt tossing. Besides, what would the poor mercs do then?
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Unread 2 Aug 2007, 10:53   #17
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yeah. That's possible, true, for most cases, it'd mean quite a little bit of dirt tossing. Besides, what would the poor mercs do then?
Apply for the next alliance But really, I would not mind that too much, because my alliance just gets stronger that way - the mercenary will come begging for a planet nap sooner or later.
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Unread 2 Aug 2007, 23:17   #18
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
The blunt facts are, waging wars requires dedicated hard-working people.
It needs a dedicated hard working BC and maybe a few diplomats. The execution of the attack itself only requires discipline. ND however terrible people think they were, always punched above their weight simply because they had one thing over several other alliances; they had people who were disciplined and gave themselves to the cause. If they had better players, who understood the concept and importance of holding value, they might have won a round.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 00:28   #19
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
We've seen some endless rants as to the argument, not enough action going on, and its become a game where roidswap and resource hoarding is the only level of play.

Allthough I mostly disagree and find the current game still quite exciting, I do remember the times when if you lose your ships, it took you a while to rebuild. Whereas im sure that this keeps more players playing, I also feel that the easy to replace lost ships is dulling the game somewhat.
Wasn't this the whole idea of the “new” PA ? No one could really get a slap because losing ships made people upset. You let the casual care bears dictate the rules and consequently ended up with a game of sim planet which didn’t require the same kind of skill, dedication and organisation to succeed at.

Wars between alliances were never profitable when the two sides were evenly matched. It was far more profitable to farm low ranked galaxies and then beat up on easy target alliances. The difference between now and then seems to be that in earlier rounds the competing spheres of influence genuinely disliked one another so the chance to ruin 3 months of someone’s life by trashing their planet was always too good to pass up.

Not just that with ND Lokken, they had a core of people who as well as understanding what it was to be committed to an alliance had very good political connections mostly through being genuinely good guys to talk to, they could have been quite the alliance It is true about one hard working BC though, one man usually can run a war although he won't ever want to play again afterwards
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 21:30   #20
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Not just that with ND Lokken, they had a core of people who as well as understanding what it was to be committed to an alliance had very good political connections mostly through being genuinely good guys to talk to, they could have been quite the alliance It is true about one hard working BC though, one man usually can run a war although he won't ever want to play again afterwards
The politics in one sense were outstanding because they got what wasn't good in terms of playing the game further than they should have. On the other hand they were poor because they lacked the confidence to behave like a round winning alliance. ND's fundamental problem has always been crashing fleets and holding value rather than a BC. I think Barrow is a very capable BC and they have always had good people to tick over.

But yes, ND are good people. And that's why they are one of the best alliances in the game to play for for quite some time, and still are today.
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 21:52   #21
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

I also think that some alliances have become good for a few but lousy for most. It would seem that some alliances offer a select group of their members the choice targets for attacking and the most fleets for defense. These players benefit greatly from the alliance and usually end up in the top 50 each round.

Other players in the alliance get scraps for targets and nothing for defense. They may be good players but with only limited alliance support they are unable to reach their full potential.

I also think that alliance wars should be mono a mono. One alliance pitted against another. Today it seems like there are 4-5 alliances targetting one alliance which is not very profitable if the one alliance is lower on roids than most of the 4-5 alliances targeting that alliance. Sid posted a suggestion several round back about an alliance war system that would allow 2 alliances to go head to head without outside distraction. Maybe we should revisit that idea.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 10:38   #22
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Why ...(take 2 alliances at war)

beacuse once you've taken a planet it becomes a less viable target but is still an enemy and has to be kept busy unless you have done it to death and its without ships.

targetting this planet again and again gives less and less growth ...

multiply this over the planets in the alliance, your alliance stops growing so fast ...

the 2 alliances at war end up in stagnation, once 1 alliance stops targetting the other alliance is free for revenge and the process repeats itself.

this leaves room for another alliance whom was just doing good targets with good growth facilities to jump or stay above the 2 warring ones.

the only people that win in a 2 alliance war are those not involved in it..

(this could be eqauted to 2 blocks as well )
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 20:25   #23
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
Why ...(take 2 alliances at war)

beacuse once you've taken a planet it becomes a less viable target but is still an enemy and has to be kept busy unless you have done it to death and its without ships.

targetting this planet again and again gives less and less growth ...

multiply this over the planets in the alliance, your alliance stops growing so fast ...

the 2 alliances at war end up in stagnation, once 1 alliance stops targetting the other alliance is free for revenge and the process repeats itself.

this leaves room for another alliance whom was just doing good targets with good growth facilities to jump or stay above the 2 warring ones.

the only people that win in a 2 alliance war are those not involved in it..

(this could be eqauted to 2 blocks as well )
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 18:41   #24
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

The planet looking, at this point, staggeringly likely to win the round has in the last 200 odd ticks launched one attack on an alliance fighting his own for the win. He recalled it the same tick. Why do you think alliances don't fight wars as hard any more?

I forgot we had a website which did this all neatly for me now. Over the last 700 ticks the current top planet has attacked one of the four other alliances with a vague chance of winning at some point once (the aforementioned) and defended them 12 times.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 18:54   #25
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I forgot we had a website which did this all neatly for me now. Over the last 700 ticks the current top planet has attacked one of the four other alliances with a vague chance of winning at some point once (the aforementioned) and defended them 12 times.
Good old elviz, what a testament to how PA players should play. Well done that man!!
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 18:55   #26
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Thats a little unfair JBG .. the owner of the planet likely to win is notorious.. and his alliance took him in knowing this.

There are alot more players are willing to fight for a cause, than there are that play to win for themselves.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 18:57   #27
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

How's it working out for those saps then?
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 19:02   #28
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
Thats a little unfair JBG .. the owner of the planet likely to win is notorious.. and his alliance took him in knowing this.
They're as bad as he is then. They took him in knowing that he would contribute nothing except score, and would be useless in any kind of war as he's planet napped half the universe
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 19:37   #29
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

it's slightly hypocritical of you two to be slagging off the current #1 planet for not risking his roids when i could probably count on one hand the amount of incs that last rounds #1 alliance recieved off a certain group of top planets.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 20:02   #30
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
it's slightly hypocritical of you two to be slagging off the current #1 planet for not risking his roids when i could probably count on one hand the amount of incs that last rounds #1 alliance recieved off a certain group of top planets.
Why is that hypocritical?

1. I didn't play last round so I can't be a hypocrite about it.
2. Was elviz in the same alliance last round as this round? He tried to join Ascendancy but got rejected, did he go skulking back to his original? Aw
3. What has last round got to do with this round?
4. What have his alliance's incs got to do with his launches (especially for two separate rounds...)
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 20:10   #31
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

heh, you sorta missed the point, but oh well

The point is that both your good self and jbg are making a big deal about the fact that elviz is napped with half the universe and does his utmost to avoid the majority of incs.

What i'm saying is that this is hardly new. Relating it to last round the #1 planet for most of the round hardly attacked the #1 alliance at all as well, when his own alliance finished #2. It may not have been as official as elviz likes to keep things, but it was certainly their.

It's hypercritical to make a big deal out of it this round when members of your own alliance (i like to group people) did a pretty similar thing last round, tho obviously not to the same extent.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 20:22   #32
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Don't be a retard. Ascendancy never had a real shot to win last round, I don't think we were ever within 30 million of wolfpack. If ND managed to finish second this round somehow I certainly wouldn't blame their members for not hitting whoever wins. I know that kileman took targets in any of the attacks on other alliances we did. And as the next highest ranked planet I can say that I did so as well specifically every time we hit another alliance, including the one time we did hit wolfpack which resulted in me launch/fake/recalling on mista, a good friend of mine, for most of the night. Personally that round, nor in any round, did I have a single planet-NAP.

My point isn't that the number one planet isn't hitting other alliances. My point is that the top planet in an alliance going for the win isn't doing everything he can to support his team.

And no offence but you can go **** yourself next time you question my ****ing willingness to hit anyone.

Edit: I edited the title of this thread as I just couldn't take it anymore. Hope you don't mind kargool!
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 21:11   #33
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Don't be a retard.
i do try!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ascendancy never had a real shot to win last round. I don't think we were ever within 30 million of wolfpack. If ND managed to finish second this round somehow I certainly wouldn't blame their members for not hitting whoever wins.
Considering the number of high ranked planets you had it's more than possible that had you put in the effort then it would have been a lot closer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I know that kileman took targets in any of the attacks on other alliances we did. And as the next highest ranked planet I can say that I did so as well specifically every time we hit another alliance, including the one time we did hit wolfpack which resulted in me launch/fake/recalling on mista, a good friend of mine, for most of the night. Personally that round, nor in any round, did I have a single planet-NAP.
You said it yourself, towards the end of the round wp was the fattest alliance about, and ranked above you, yet you only hit them once?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My point isn't that the number one planet isn't hitting other alliances. My point is that the top planet in an alliance going for the win isn't doing everything he can to support his team.
i can agree with you on this, but then i also think that if alliances are presented with the smallest possibility of winning then thoughts of their planet ranks shouldn't dissuade them from doing so.



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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
And no offence but you can go **** yourself next time you question my ****ing willingness to hit anyone.
try to be civil.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 21:28   #34
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Considering the number of high ranked planets you had it's more than possible that had you put in the effort then it would have been a lot closer.
Closer for who? Certainly not ascendancy. Personally I would have far preferred the round to have gone on for a few weeks longer so we could have gone to war with wolfpack but hay nonny ho.

Quote:
You said it yourself, towards the end of the round wp was the fattest alliance about, and ranked above you, yet you only hit them once?
You're missing the point by such a staggering distance I can't believe you actually read my post. Firstly ascendancy were the fattest alliance. Secondly we did a grand total of maybe six nights of targetting. Two for ct, two for tgv, one for vision and one for wolfpack. Bar the wolfpack one every single one of those was a response to what we considered a high level of targetting. We only hit them once because at that point we couldn't win and it was more just for our own entertainment than anything. Keep in mind the aforementioned point that for most of the round we were much further behind them. I don't even think we made it into second until the last five days of the round or so. Do you really think we hit someone once, and only once therefore increasing the likelihood we'd be hit back and not taking any measures to avoid doing so, because we were concerned about planet ranks.


Quote:
i can agree with you on this, but then i also think that if alliances are presented with the smallest possibility of winning then thoughts of their planet ranks shouldn't dissuade them from doing so.
You think i was dissuaded from going to war with wolfpack because of my own planet rank? In r19 I donated away my chances of a top 20 spot to someone in my galaxy so my galaxy would win because that round that was our goal. I don't expect you to be aware of my personal planet history or even vaguely give a shit but you could at least not open your mouth on issues like this unless you do know a bit.


Quote:
try to be civil.
I hope you can understand my reaction when you read my post and realise how badly you appear to have misunderstood the situation.


I'm going to try and make the contrast clearer. Number one planet in an alliance which spent most of the round within five million score of first place, and often in first place but now lagging behind, spends more time defending planets in competing alliances than hitting them. Top planets in alliance which spent most of the round gradually climbing up to second place and never made it within 20 million of first place rarely hit the number one alliance.

I doubt I could make it clearer without the use of diagrams.

Even if you are right that's actually even further proof for my theory that fencesitting pays off.

Edit: sorry for mucking up your thread a bit as well as changing the title kargool!
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 21:52   #35
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
it's slightly hypocritical of you two to be slagging off the current #1 planet for not risking his roids when i could probably count on one hand the amount of incs that last rounds #1 alliance recieved off a certain group of top planets.


The current #1 is a known cheater and is probably most known for getting closed for cheating, than times he has won a round.

If anything he shows what a big joke the planet ranking is when someone with his cheating repertoire manage to win round after round and that alliances actually let him play for their alliance is a big mystery too me. I guess some people care more about score than actually playing the game by the rules.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 00:28   #36
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Re: Why aren't wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Well said Kargool.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 01:44   #37
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
How's it working out for those saps then?
Defense? What defense? What are you talking about?

Even I have more XP than elvis. Until he got reemed last night I had lost more roids this round than he did. Shame that CT is most likely gonna lose the round though.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 05:41   #38
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Shame that CT is most likely gonna lose the round though.
yeah b/c they're planet targeting the people that hit Elviz instead of going after #1 and #2.
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 08:35   #39
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
You said it yourself, towards the end of the round wp was the fattest alliance about, and ranked above you, yet you only hit them once?
This (and your other points) seem to be directed at me 'as the #1 asc planet for most of the round', so I thought I should commecnt.

I didnt have a planet nap with anyone, as its a pussy way to play.

i did however often favour other targets over WP ones as
1) no one else was hitting WP so the chances of getting through were low (as they had 60 planets ready and waiting to defend)
2) WP were the only alliance that could knock me out if they really wanted to. Attacking them every night would have only drawn attention to myself and wouldnt have gained me any roids.
3) WP were not actively attacking ASC, whereas other alliances were. Of course those actively being hostile willl always be first on the hit list.

kthnxbye
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 10:57   #40
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
If anything he shows what a big joke the planet ranking is when someone with his cheating repertoire manage to win round after round and that alliances actually let him play for their alliance is a big mystery too me. I guess some people care more about score than actually playing the game by the rules.
I do recall you asking a 2:4 galaxy member if they would ask elviz to leave CT and come and join TGV?
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 11:11   #41
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
I do recall you asking a 2:4 galaxy member if they would ask elviz to leave CT and come and join TGV?
Gee how scandalous everything may sound when taken out of context, when that said TGV member was complaining for the zillionth time that TGV was hitting Elviz, I said that the only way to make us stop attacking him was if he joined us or any other ally who was friendly.


That said TGV member also later got booted for defending Elviz and sacrificing all the fleet she got in an attempt to give salvage to elviz so he could cheat his way to another victory.

Luckly it didnt work.

He also had pnaps with VGN and Jenova so VGN and Jenova mostly avoided him the entire round, except when Jenova couldnt hold their own members in check and fast_ and some other Jenova players attacked him.

Btw, I know that the Rinoa thread is closed, but I had to mention it somewhere, you lying about Rinoa not being in the tgv private channels was somewhat amusing too.
Rinoa was one of the members whom had highest defpoint ratio according to days been in the alliance.

I dont get where you get your shit from, but please spread it somewhere else.
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 11:40   #42
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Re: Why aren't wars between alliances as profitable as before?

You sure it wasn't the kajillionth time you told him?
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 11:48   #43
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
...and that alliances actually let him play for their alliance is a big mystery too me. I guess some people care more about score than actually playing the game by the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
...said that the only way to make us stop attacking him was if he joined us or any other ally who was friendly.



Edit: You're a hypocrite.
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 11:52   #44
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
That said TGV member also later got booted for defending Elviz and sacrificing all the fleet she got in an attempt to give salvage to elviz so he could cheat his way to another victory.
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 12:12   #45
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05



Edit: You're a hypocrite.
No. Did you really think I had any intentions in letting him in TGV?

Just because I said that was the only way he would avoid TGV incs didnt mean he would get accepted into the alliance.
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 12:44   #46
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
No. Did you really think I had any intentions in letting him in TGV?

Just because I said that was the only way he would avoid TGV incs didnt mean he would get accepted into the alliance.
Oh please, its fine saying that now. Its like asking a ugly chick out and then when she says no..

"hahaha.. i was only kidding, as if id ever be seen with someone like you"

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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 13:54   #47
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
You said it yourself, towards the end of the round wp was the fattest alliance about, and ranked above you, yet you only hit them once?
Its a bit of a late reply but i have to quote this as it did make me smile, i was one of the top planets, infact i even had a planet nap with wolfpack, i then decided to break this nap about 1 day later, and I hit wolfpack alot, and they returned fire, infact just before round end they took about 4500 roids from me in one night it was great. I was actually the only terran in the top100 that round which i have to thank my awesome gal for, but i can safely say i had 0 naps bar that 1 day one, and i hit whoever i wanted, and as my gal can testify I always hit big fat targets, which they got pretty pissed about because i would always cap roids and make our gal a target again for that night.

There are alot of ways you can play a top planet, the one being questioned i have to say doesnt seem appealing at all, wheres the challenge? whats the point?
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 14:02   #48
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
Oh please, its fine saying that now. Its like asking a ugly chick out and then when she says no..

"hahaha.. i was only kidding, as if id ever be seen with someone like you"

Just proves yet again how little you know of me and how TGV works. But feel free to continue to live in complete ignorance, it makes me laugh a little each day.

First of all, let me start by saying that you firstly dont know what discussions that went on between the hc's about elviz, nor did you know what actually transpired in the conversation that took place.

We decided to target him to make CT waste def fleets on him, and also for him to be constantly buggered so that he couldnt get much done other than defending his own planet.

Seing as nobody else were gonna hit him we knew we had to get him out.

When I told my member that he should leave CT and join another alliance I didnt mention TGV specific, but told her that that was the only chance he had not being attacked by TGV. I never intended to make him join, anyone who knows me slightly knows how many times i've reported elviz's obviously cheating and that should hold as proof enough that I never wanted him in my alliance. Just the same as when we turned down crusie when she had a friend of her asking if she could join us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by log
<Claire> even though your hitting elviz
<Kargool> well
<Kargool> easy solution to all his problems
<Kargool> get him to leave CT
<Kargool> problem solved!
Some people simply wont be accepted in TGV based on that we simply dont want a few of the more dubious profiles in Planetarion (one might argue that TGV got enough with me around ) . If Elviz actually had left CT thinking he could have joined TGV instead without even asking me himself in the first place I would have been laughing all the way to the AD forums to tell the tale.

And yet again back to my initial point, you put out claims about what was going on in TGV without even knowing ANYTHING of the inside works that was being done. So feel free to show me your "inside" sources in the hc channel on your alleged claims both including Elviz and Rinoa or stop putting false information about TGV in this discussion.
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 15:55   #49
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
-snip-

And yet again back to my initial point, you put out claims about what was going on in TGV without even knowing ANYTHING of the inside works that was being done. So feel free to show me your "inside" sources in the hc channel on your alleged claims both including Elviz and Rinoa or stop putting false information about TGV in this discussion.
Hmm, i never actually claimed to have "inside" information. I was told that Rinoa was useless and i posted about it. If you say the source isnt reliable well then my appologies to Rinoa for any grievance i may have caused him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I said that the only way to make us stop attacking him was if he joined us or any other ally who was friendly.
The claims i made about elviz was that you told a member of TGV he could join. You have again stated this in your post ive quoted above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
anyone who knows me slightly knows how many times i've reported elviz's obviously cheating and that should hold as proof enough that I never wanted him in my alliance.
Yes, its super that you have reported him so many times because he is a cheater with no morals. Funny, his account was'nt closed? You cant say multi-hunters were not doing there jobs because Achilles was closed for scanning. Clearly this proves they were if anything over reacting to slightest bit of "cheating" (if you can even call it that)?

Anyway, lets just forget this now
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Unread 19 Aug 2007, 16:08   #50
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Re: Why isnt wars between alliances as profitable as before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
Hmm, i never actually claimed to have "inside" information. I was told that Rinoa was useless and i posted about it. If you say the source isnt reliable well then my apologies to Rinoa for any grievance i may have caused him.

Yes, its super that you have reported him so many times because he is a cheater with no morals. Funny, his account wasn't closed? You cant say multi-hunters were not doing there jobs because Achilles was closed for scanning. Clearly this proves they were if anything over reacting to slightest bit of "cheating" (if you can even call it that)?
Last thing first, no, it only shows the multihunters inability to actually act on their own rules regarding new discovered cheating and their inability to punish the inventive cheaters like elviz whom obviously have many ways to cheat the multihunters haven't even discovered yet. This round they did remove the salvage from his galdef suiciding on an obviously lost wave though, so entirely helpless they're not but that would never have happened if they had acted on the numerous accounts on attempting cheating he tried before that plus the fact that i brought up in this thread: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=195059 and until the multihunters actually acknowledge the importance of closing cheaters and keeping them out of the game indefinitely .

Achi got closed because they could "prove" it and that it seems like the multihunters decided to act on the cheating they cared about based on knowledge and contacts.

To your first issue, let me just refer you to your own claim in the now closed post about rinoa:

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...63&postcount=6

Basing your "assumptions" on something someone randomly said in a conversation with you, instead of asking for more relevant confirmation from the people who actually did know anything just proves how little you checked your sources before you called out a claim like that.
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