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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:42   #101
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
Im saying i do see why people choose frigate fleets... simply because fi seem to have **** all chance of doing any good in the game.
So literally all round last round all you did was roid Terran's all round?

Xan FI enmasse WILL still force through most ETD's/Cath's, stop being so stupid as to think that it wouldn't.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:50   #102
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
Fi need to be given a break, back when there were 3 killing fi ships xans were a damn good race imo now they just look shite not being able to realisticly self cover much.
And while were at it, lets expand on this blatant lie as well shall we...

They can't self cover as much as compared to when? The only thing that Xan realistically will struggle to self cover against is BS.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:57   #103
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
Fi need to be given a break, back when there were 3 killing fi ships xans were a damn good race imo now they just look shite not being able to realisticly self cover much. If you choose to play with fi you can build shadow, but it then forces you to produce other fr flak for them to be useful. This then wastes resources which would be used on banshee lowering your chance of swamping out the emp.
With the suggested stats, a Xan may put 60 % of his resources into nightmares, and divide the rest evenly on banshees, wraiths, bombers and shadows.

Voila! You will not get incoming fighters, corvettes, frigs, destroyers or cruisers unless you get really fat. Most people launch to get free roids, and they basically won't get them from you with anything but BS.

60 % value in nightmares should also be enough to get free roids from three races all round, when Etd and Zik no longer accumulates those nasty tycoons which were eating xan-frigs.

Stop the whining about xan-weakness please.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:18   #104
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
So literally all round last round all you did was roid Terran's all round?

Xan FI enmasse WILL still force through most ETD's/Cath's, stop being so stupid as to think that it wouldn't.

You can rip in to what i said as much as you want, put simply you are saying why choose fi when fr work good as defence/attack ships. The simple answer being fi is a roiding attack fleet so why should you be forced to choose the other? Also i stated the phantom as a killing ship has become pointless to build if all you are trying to do is beat emp (which is now the only worthwhile target). The cheaper banshee will be easy to produce in mass and quicker, giving you those extra ships as a buffer for ingal emp defence.

The way i played last round i did produce a heavy banshee fleet with around 2mill banshee and 300k phantom. The phantom really had **** all use in my attacks for their cost. I was able to hit ter,caths and etds with just banshee. Now that pegasus init has been changed for me ter are not a worthwhile target and my paper fi are not worth playing chicken with (since eventually they will have to overcome an emp target). A good target race has been taken away from the fi player and i know for a fact that later on in the round when my value had built up, trying to hit the top cath/etd's (for good score) was simply not happening as they were keeping roids easier and could outproduce pretty much most fi attacks with little help from ally/gal.

We shall see how the 60% value theory works out delver, but tbh unless you spend 80% of your resources on producing fi... they will never overcome the emp targets that we have been left with.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:35   #105
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
You can rip in to what i said as much as you want,
I will continue to rip into your comments while you continue to make such idiotic comments without any actual backup.

Quote:
put simply you are saying why choose fi when fr work good as defence/attack ships.
No, put simply I am saying that FI attack WILL still work, just that it doesnt have THREE zero loss targets anymore.


Quote:
The simple answer being fi is a roiding attack fleet so why should you be forced to choose the other? Also i stated the phantom as a killing ship has become pointless to build if all you are trying to do is beat emp (which is now the only worthwhile target). The cheaper banshee will be easy to produce in mass and quicker, giving you those extra ships as a buffer for ingal emp defence.
So you never had Wraiths defending against you then?

FI is a roiding fleet you are right, and no you aren't being forced off it, it's still got an FI pod hasn't it?

Quote:
The way i played last round i did produce a heavy banshee fleet with around 2mill banshee and 300k phantom. The phantom really had **** all use in my attacks for their cost. I was able to hit ter,caths and etds with just banshee. Now that pegasus init has been changed for me ter are not a worthwhile target and my paper fi are not worth playing chicken with (since eventually they will have to overcome an emp target). A good target race has been taken away from the fi player and i know for a fact that later on in the round when my value had built up, trying to hit the top cath/etd's (for good score) was simply not happening as they were keeping roids easier and could outproduce pretty much most fi attacks with little help from ally/gal.
What a boring round you must have had, just launching banshee/phants to the same targets each round. If you want to focus your game play into a corner, its up to you to ADAPT your game play (i.e. find the targets with weak anti FI), and not up to the game to allow you to have a easy ride because you want to play the mass FI way.

Quote:
We shall see how the 60% value theory works out delver, but tbh unless you spend 80% of your resources on producing fi... they will never overcome the emp targets that we have been left with.
The beetle/voyager efficiency has hardly changed, so you are basically saying you never overcame the ETD/Cath targets last round too? Seems strange as you said earlier you were bumming Ter/ETD/Cath all round.

Basically if you are going to post in the thread, actual think outside of your own little world, and think about the implications for the game as a whole, not for your little planet.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:46   #106
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
We shall see how the 60% value theory works out delver, but tbh unless you spend 80% of your resources on producing fi... they will never overcome the emp targets that we have been left with.
The 60 % theory would give a 1m value xan roughly 100k nightmares (600k value). Those will cut through 170k corsair ( 300k value) or 120k vendor (400k value) for zero-loss roids. I can hardly see ziks or etd of same size as you putting respectively 30 % and 40 % of their values in corsairs or vendors.

An etd may have voyagers as co-flak, which means he will be able to have slightly less vendors. However, they are paper thin and will die, as before
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 14:21   #107
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I was a fairly high ranked xan last round and most of my roids came by sending my FI\CO fleet on fat ziks, I dont see why that shouldnt be possible this round also.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 15:20   #108
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delver
The 60 % theory would give a 1m value xan roughly 100k nightmares (600k value). Those will cut through 170k corsair ( 300k value) or 120k vendor (400k value) for zero-loss roids. I can hardly see ziks or etd of same size as you putting respectively 30 % and 40 % of their values in corsairs or vendors.

An etd may have voyagers as co-flak, which means he will be able to have slightly less vendors. However, they are paper thin and will die, as before
But just like last round, im sure most ETD players will have a decent amount of tycoons, putting xan FR shit outta luck
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 15:28   #109
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
But just like last round, im sure most ETD players will have a decent amount of tycoons, putting xan FR shit outta luck
In the suggested stats tycoons targets cruisers, which is why etd will be more open to frig attacks, and ziks cannot plug their frig-weakness easily.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 15:47   #110
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delver
In the suggested stats tycoons targets cruisers, which is why etd will be more open to frig attacks, and ziks cannot plug their frig-weakness easily.
Really? i dont have excel at work, so i probs shouldnt comment on them.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 19:29   #111
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Update

Changes in yellow, comments...

Reasons for changes :-

Phoenix changed to FR, to make greater possibilty of ETD attacking.

EMP Res of various DE->BS changed to help Brokers against other races.

Gun on Beetle reduced to greater balance Co/CR, Xan FI adjusted too

Last edited by Game^; 16 Aug 2007 at 19:41.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 20:51   #112
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

phoenix as fr

this has definetly opened Ter to Etd Co and made it harder for cath to hit ter with Co

it also made it harder for cath to hit ter with Cr as there are now 2 Fr in the Ter fleet so there might be more ter fr around

I see you changed the investor from steal to kill
Etd don't have a steal ship anymore
this means no Scorps and no Dragons/Wyverns (the chance to get ter bs was pretty low anyway)


Voyagers are now more efficient than beetles and that's ok since cath don't have to fear BWs
The Etd Co fleet now seems to fit perfectly on Ter and Cath migth choose Etd as the primary target and Ter as a second pick

Etd Bs still looks like the are having a hard time compaired to Ter Bs...
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:02   #113
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
this has definetly opened Ter to Etd Co and made it harder for cath to hit ter with Co

No, in fact it's now plenty smoother and easier.

Sign me up for cath.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:06   #114
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
I see you changed the investor from steal to kill
Mistake, will correct, sorry.

Couple more changes coming too

UPDATE UPDATE

Last edited by Game^; 16 Aug 2007 at 21:11.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:24   #115
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

why did u remove the ghost?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:39   #116
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by torstein.gran@g
why did u remove the ghost?
Already covered, read the thread
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:55   #117
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

i dident find it,can u post it again?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 00:11   #118
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

because it's useless
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 00:44   #119
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Just a suggestion, but would you consider making the corsair a kill ship?
The main reason is that if ziks are going to have a hard time stopping anti-fr anyways, at least don't let them become even more vulnerable by having their corsair fleet gone because of an xp-landing.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 01:05   #120
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

some xan ships seem to fire BEFORE other races, is that a mistake ?
Most races characteristics are respected except the Xan who have lost their fast init round after round. Shouldn't we go back to basics ?
If I can understand that their biggest ship the DE has an init of 10 (!), I think the xan should be at their best when it comes to FI... thus I find the init5 Banshee out of place.
The terran have a huge armour BECAUSE they fire after other ships. Giving them that big armour + a very fast init is just too much... or will you give the xan banshee a better armour to balance it ?
Besides I find it very wrong that Terran should roid Xans for free while Xans can't hit them back... war is supposed to be a fight between 2 opponents, in this case there is no fight possible.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 01:24   #121
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Regarding the Spectre's initiative, I suspect that's to give the Tycoon a fighting chance.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 01:51   #122
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Mistake, will correct, sorry.

Couple more changes coming too

UPDATE UPDATE
Can you explain why you changed the empres of the spider? I don't really see any point in it, for all i care u can make it 1 or 100, doesnt matter anyway?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 02:09   #123
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Regarding the Spectre's initiative, I suspect that's to give the Tycoon a fighting chance.
?
the Spectre will be emp by the Broker, and there is no CR in the Xan fleet for the Tyc to fire at.
Are we looking at stats "race vs race" or do we have to think of all possible defenses coming from other races ? Because if we design stats based on 'what if' we'll complete r23 stats around R30
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 09:42   #124
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Just a suggestion, but would you consider making the corsair a kill ship?
The main reason is that if ziks are going to have a hard time stopping anti-fr anyways, at least don't let them become even more vulnerable by having their corsair fleet gone because of an xp-landing.
Ziks wouldn't want any chance to steal FR?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 09:45   #125
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
some xan ships seem to fire BEFORE other races, is that a mistake ?
Most races characteristics are respected except the Xan who have lost their fast init round after round. Shouldn't we go back to basics ?
If I can understand that their biggest ship the DE has an init of 10 (!), I think the xan should be at their best when it comes to FI... thus I find the init5 Banshee out of place.
The terran have a huge armour BECAUSE they fire after other ships. Giving them that big armour + a very fast init is just too much... or will you give the xan banshee a better armour to balance it ?
Already covered 15 MILLION times in thread, go back and read it!

As regards the Xan banshee vs the Peg, ill have a look at some BR's and decide at some point.

Quote:
Besides I find it very wrong that Terran should roid Xans for free while Xans can't hit them back... war is supposed to be a fight between 2 opponents, in this case there is no fight possible.
Why should every race be able to roid every other? I also don't see an option ingame where you declare war against a single planet? Or maybe you are wanting to declare war against a single race?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 09:46   #126
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr
Can you explain why you changed the empres of the spider? I don't really see any point in it, for all i care u can make it 1 or 100, doesnt matter anyway?
Looks cleaner?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:26   #127
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Look, a firing first constantly paradigm is too powerful for vaguely balanced stats. Get over it.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:33   #128
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Look, a firing first constantly paradigm is too powerful for vaguely balanced stats. Get over it.
Yes and no; you fire first in a trade off with armour or firepower or a bit of both. Xan, obviously, have high firepower good initiative and extremely low armour. That, and given the nature of the combat engine, means that Xan losses are magnified - thus making it more important for them to fire first on key enemy ships. That is balanced.

Having a ship with good firepower, low armour and firing last, given the current combat formula environment, means that ship is for all intents and purposes useless, as it simply dies cheaply before getting off a shot. That is not balanced.

Ships that fire late need more armour than those that fire early. Thus Xan, who as a race typically fire early with low armour are "balanced" in that general sense. Having a sterotypical Xan ship that fires late doesnt fit into their general scheme, and is probably underpowered, but not necessarily so.

Thus, i believe that your assertion is incorrect.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:33   #129
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
some xan ships seem to fire BEFORE other races, is that a mistake ?
It's a mistake. I'm actually expecting Game to fix it before tickstart. Basically, whilst designing the setup, we had two plans regarding xandathrii. First was the old school plan to please likes of you and Munkee. It involved every xandathrii ship automatically firing for vicious amounts of damage at initiative 2, meaning the same initiative with slow hitting EMP ships. This plan was tossed as it was too obvious and uninteresting. Thus, we decided to pick a plan where every xandathrii ship fires last, and we're also waiting for Appocomaster to implement the scans so that a planet scan will reveal cloaked ships in addition to it's normal function (but not normal ships), and a surface scan will include, in addition to structure information, a complete old school military analysis scan of any cloaked ships. To add to the masterplan, I've also suggested that we remove both astropods from xandathrii.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:46   #130
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Yes and no; you fire first in a trade off with armour or firepower or a bit of both. Xan, obviously, have high firepower good initiative and extremely low armour. That, and given the nature of the combat engine, means that Xan losses are magnified - thus making it more important for them to fire first on key enemy ships. That is balanced.
No, that's making big xans physically impossible to roid for anyone not cathaar which means they accumulate vast amounts of value and wildly imbalance the racial dynamic.

Quote:
Having a ship with good firepower, low armour and firing last, given the current combat formula environment, means that ship is for all intents and purposes useless, as it simply dies cheaply before getting off a shot. That is not balanced.
Nor does such a ship exist in greater numbers than in any other race.

Quote:
Xan ships that fire late need more armour than those that fire early. Thus Xan, who as a race typically fire early with low armour are "balanced" in that general sense. Having a sterotypical Xan ship that fires late doesnt fit into their general scheme, and is probably underpowered, but not necessarily so.
They don't have one of those.

Quote:
Thus, i believe that your assertion is incorrect.
I'm not entirely sure you actually read my post heh.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:49   #131
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

go back to 4 races again or add a bunch more
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:02   #132
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No, that's making big xans physically impossible to roid for anyone not cathaar which means they accumulate vast amounts of value and wildly imbalance the racial dynamic.
That's not correct. Having "good" initiative does not mean that all Xan ships fire at init 1 or 2. Good initiative means that you can expect them to fire earlier than most other ships, and attacking ships in particular need to fire before ships that can be used to defend against them. This should be the benefit of having far less armour than most other ships.

Your argument, if applied to Terrans would be that their armour is so high that none of their ships actually dies, "which means they accumulate vast amounts of value and wildly imbalance the racial dynamic."

Clearly, i didnt mean this. Apply some common sense.

Quote:
They don't have one of those.
Perhaps not at the moment, however last round's Spectre kind of fit this bill; its armour was lower than its contempories, is firepower was lower, and its initiative was poor. It was, essentially, an un-Xan ship but still with (relatively) poor armour and EMP resistance.

Also, its possible that such a ship can exist, which was more what i was exploring as an example of what wouldnt be balanced.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure you actually read my post heh.
Well, lets hope you read mine then .
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:10   #133
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

"Look, a firing first constantly paradigm is too powerful for vaguely balanced stats. Get over it."

This is what I posted. Do you disagree with it? You seem to actually agree with it and just for some reason you're arguing against a point I haven't made. My post was in response to the inane complaints posted earlier in the thread by, presumably, a number of disgruntled xan players.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:13   #134
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Based on the suggested stats, my intention was to go terran.

After reading the 'update', and the 'updated update', I no longer have a clear preference with respect to my choice of race. I'll let the other guys in my BP have their pick, and then just plug the weaknesses.

In my opinion, you have pretty much succeeded in making the stats balanced. Good job!
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:21   #135
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Thus, i believe that your assertion is incorrect.
He's not wrong at all, as the only solution to Xan firing constantly first would be to make it so the damage it creates is so minor most races dont care, and thus would land on them anyway. Which in effect would make them even more pointless.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:32   #136
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Paradigm or not it's just the wrong general direction to make FR the Xan's primary roiding fleet.

FR is the Zik primary roiding fleet. FI should remain the Xan's primary roiding fleet in any case.
Keep its init, lower its damage or emp resistance if you feel banshees are too strong against Ter pegs.

This is from one of the better Terrans in R22, I disagree.
I think Ter and Xan were balanced very well in R22.

Xan Fi can be a problem, but as pegs are a Ter mainstay anyway, if you had enough of them you could reduce the likelihood of Xan Fi landing drastically.
In turn, without a lot of spectre, which a lot of Xan did develop in the later parts of the round, as Ter you could hit back with BS.

Each had a gap for the others roiding fleet, and the right ship and incentive to close that gap. Each was doable and reduced the chances of a 0-loss attack on you by the other.

This needed no fixing. Xan hit you with Fi, and you turned around and got your roids back with BS.
This was a good thing, and made for interesting interactions between Terrans and Xans.

Leaving the FI roiding fleet as lesser option for Xan, will leave half of the Xan community reeling trying to find new playable strategies,
and it diminishes the game as a whole, leaving both Xan and Ter with only mediocre options in hitting each other.

Xan FR against Harpies, brrr. Init-nerfed Fi against pegs, brrr.
Ter BS against improved spectre, brrr also. Just makes everything unattractive to everybody...

So instead of hitting and hitting back, they'll just pass on each other...
I fail to see how that improves much...

Very beige...

Regardless of the stats, it also reduces the 'fake'- capabilities of Xan drastically, making them a whole lot less scary.
Additionally the changes to the cluster ETA's is a nerf to Xan Fi in itself.

This big Ter and r22 DC says, if you are going to nerf the Xan due to a perceived dominance, that imho doesn't exist, you nerf their FR, not the FI,
and you don't leave the game without a viable FI roiding option that doesn't require a sh*tload of other sacrifices and galsupport to be playable.

My two cents for what it's worth.

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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:36   #137
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Why shift the Phoenix to being a Frigate? With its current initiative it is now close to useless as a defence ship. I mean, its too slow for anything except in-galaxy defence and even then the fact it fires after the vendor means its pretty naff. Its basically now a rubbish version of the nightmare with the added disadvantage that it isn't an attack ship either. Its like making the Merchant into a Frigate. Now the only way to stop CO fleets is either with a lot of Xan FI (and see below for the problems with that) or with Black Widows.

Similarly why are you weakening the E/R of the Xan FI? Isn't the change to the Banshee-Pegasus dynamic a sufficient nerfing of that particular fleet?

In all honesty I think this stats are worse than the R22 ones. You're changing stuff that doesn't need to be changed, going against the themes of the races and so on.

The Investor is another good example of 'What are you thinking?' Ok, so you don't want ETD to have a zero-loss stealship anymore which is understandable but the higher init of the Dragon means that you have basically created a new situation like the pegasus-banshee one. Now pretty much the only way to stop Ter BS is either with a ton of Tarants or with Scorpions. Ter BS is now way too powerful and it was never that weak anyway (especially when it was teamed with Etd BS which it usually was).

Anyway to answer your initial questions I think I'd play Cath with the current stats. The new Black Widows combined with the Scorpion make them an incredibly useful race to have in a galaxy/alliance and with the weakening of Xan FI (and thus the increased strength of the CO fleet) I think they should have little trouble roiding either if they choose.

I was planning on switching to Xan but with the changes you've made I think they are close to unplayable now - and thats coming from somebody who played Terran in R21.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:47   #138
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

How did xan get worse? They now are better vs bs slightly, can't roid terran, can't be roided by xan and can roid etd. Overall they now only have one def ship which they need to dump into to be effective. And there are now a ****ing load of fr->co of ships.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 12:07   #139
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I'm not saying that they are necessarily worse compared to the all the other races, but it's a shame the Xan/Ter dynamic is totally gone.

I still believe that trading of Xan FI against Xan FR is the wrong general direction to take. You go for Xan for their speed and stealth, you don't nerf what gives the Xan their identity.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 12:26   #140
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Game^
Already covered 15 MILLION times in thread, go back and read it!
I won't read 15 million times the same thing, thx. But if it was asked that often it means there's a real problem there. Thanks for trying to fix it.
I'm looking forward to r23 and its 15 million players (at least)...
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 12:41   #141
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Ziks wouldn't want any chance to steal FR?
As it stands now, ziks can steal with corsairs:

1. Terran anti-co, and anti-cr
2. Cath anti-cr
3. Etd anti-co and anti-cr
4. Xan anti-co and anti-cr, pods
5. More Zik fr

So the only thing you can steal with corsairs is either anti-co or anti-cr.
They don't really need anti-co, since their fr fleet has anti-co in it.
That leaves us with anti-cr, but the chances of stealing ships from the first 3 races are quite slim. So you could steal either more zik fr or some xan fr.
In my opinion, stealing nightmares doesn't really give much of an advantage, and my needs for anti-cr will be probably best addressed by hitting etds with my de attack fleet.
So i would happily trade being able to steal fr for being less open to xp landings.
But then again, it's just my opinion, and only a suggestion open to discussion.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 12:45   #142
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Yes and no; you fire first in a trade off with armour or firepower or a bit of both. Xan, obviously, have high firepower good initiative and extremely low armour. That, and given the nature of the combat engine, means that Xan losses are magnified - thus making it more important for them to fire first on key enemy ships. That is balanced.

Having a ship with good firepower, low armour and firing last, given the current combat formula environment, means that ship is for all intents and purposes useless, as it simply dies cheaply before getting off a shot. That is not balanced.

Ships that fire late need more armour than those that fire early. Thus Xan, who as a race typically fire early with low armour are "balanced" in that general sense. Having a sterotypical Xan ship that fires late doesnt fit into their general scheme, and is probably underpowered, but not necessarily so.

Thus, i believe that your assertion is incorrect.
The only constant when designing xan stats should be that they are cloaked.
On the other hand, nothing stops you from designing a xan ship with low initiative and high armor.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 12:54   #143
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
In my opinion, stealing nightmares doesn't really give much of an advantage
It does mean you can roid etd with fr.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 13:02   #144
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

ghost whould be a great ship this round,it whould make it possible to play 4 value as an xan player. you just whould make your fleet of co-fr-de that whould cover all attackers but not be like the old xan.bring the ghost back
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 13:02   #145
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It does mean you can roid etd with fr.
I don't think many ziks would manage to steal enough xan fr to make enough dent on one of the etds attack fleets. Besides, I can roid them more effectively with de, and that's what i will do, since i would want etd Bs for anti-cr and complement them with stolen scorpions for anti-bs.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 13:05   #146
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Well, all you have to do is kill a good bunch with your mares and your cutters do the rest. I think roiding with fr or de is pretty much an either or choice, it'll be difficult for ziks to have enough of both.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 13:06   #147
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by torstein.gran@g
ghost whould be a great ship this round,it whould make it possible to play 4 value as an xan player. you just whould make your fleet of co-fr-de that whould cover all attackers but not be like the old xan.bring the ghost back
I think that was actually one of the reasonings behind removing them. Ghosts would make fi fleets superfluous, and having any race be able to cover all 6 ship classes with just 3 of theirs gives them a huge advantage, since the don't have to spread their resources among at least 4 classes the way the other races have to.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 14:45   #148
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
In my opinion, stealing nightmares doesn't really give much of an advantage, and my needs for anti-cr will be probably best addressed by hitting etds with my de attack fleet.
Nightmares (and even merchants) could decrease the chance you get hit by Etd Co but i guess some stolen BWs would be more useful.
Tycoons as anti Cr...
you would need alot landings on inactive Etd or you would need to build alot marauders to get througth those attacking tarantulas.
Additionally when attacking inactive etd you will get alot of useless brokers and only very few of your precious Tycoons.
You've Rogue so why do you need Brokers.
If you want flak for your marauders just get scorpions. They are cheap so you won't loose many pirates but as only the number count's when it comes to emp flak scorpions are one to use.
Scorpions might also get those Ter with 50 billion wyvern think twice before launching at you.
You could use Fr as anti Cr, you'll have tons of Fr anyway so it doesn't matter if you don't have that much chimeras, shadows, scarabs or dealers, they won't get frozen that easily.

chimeras, shadows, scarabs or dealers could also help to stop ingal def by roaches, and while stealing shadows, you might get nightmares which decreases the chance your target gets bombers or vendors from the alliance.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:28   #149
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
Nightmares (and even merchants) could decrease the chance you get hit by Etd Co but i guess some stolen BWs would be more useful.
Tycoons as anti Cr...
you would need alot landings on inactive Etd or you would need to build alot marauders to get througth those attacking tarantulas.
Additionally when attacking inactive etd you will get alot of useless brokers and only very few of your precious Tycoons.
You've Rogue so why do you need Brokers.
If you want flak for your marauders just get scorpions. They are cheap so you won't loose many pirates but as only the number count's when it comes to emp flak scorpions are one to use.
Scorpions might also get those Ter with 50 billion wyvern think twice before launching at you.
You could use Fr as anti Cr, you'll have tons of Fr anyway so it doesn't matter if you don't have that much chimeras, shadows, scarabs or dealers, they won't get frozen that easily.

chimeras, shadows, scarabs or dealers could also help to stop ingal def by roaches, and while stealing shadows, you might get nightmares which decreases the chance your target gets bombers or vendors from the alliance.
You are forgetting that the only realistic type of anti-cr you will be able to steal will be shadows, and even that is quite uncertain, as xans will be hitting you with big nightmare fleets with very few shadows. If you don't have a _really_ decent amount of shadows, caths will still land on you for acceptable losses.
I think the probability of stealing a decent anti-cr fleet is much higher by targetting etds for their anti-cr and caths for their scorpions as bs and flak. The thing i dislike the most about ziks is that the stats _force_ you to hit inactive planets to fill the gaps in your defences.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 16:11   #150
Aetou
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
How did xan get worse? They now are better vs bs slightly, can't roid terran, can't be roided by xan and can roid etd. Overall they now only have one def ship which they need to dump into to be effective. And there are now a ****ing load of fr->co of ships.
The spectre is still so terrible that I don't think the slight improvement is worth anything. Wyverns will still make defending against Ter BS impossible and the billions of Brokers means that trying to stop a large ETD fleet with Spectres is pretty foolish.


Xan FI could always roid etd for no losses (I know, I got hit by them often enough) but now that their emp res has been lowered they are worse at that... I'm just not convinced that preventing xans hitting xan (which surely is neither an advantage or disadvantage, or rather is both) balances out the seriously nerfed FI fleet. If Xan are too strong than weaken their FR fleet, Xan should be mainly about their FI and CO anyway - small and fast remember?

Just improving Terrans against Xan FI is hardly the way to addres the weakness of Terrans (or rather, the strength of etd and zik). Xan and Cath were about right strength wise. Making Cath much stronger (they needed a slight boost and a second killship but having three CO is too much) while weakening Xan isn't an improvement.
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