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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 10:56   #1
ComradeRob
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Research/construction suggestions

Constructions are unfair.

Their cost increases according to how many you have already, but this clearly favours players who have high roid counts. For them, their 100th construction might represent a tick's worth of resources. For a small player, the 100th construction might represent a whole day's resources (or more!). This greatly disadvantages smaller players who want to pursue a strategy that relies on building lots of constructions.

Some possible solutions appear below. Ideally, all of them could be used together, but I suppose they could be used separately:

Make construction costs flat. Perhaps some constructions might cost more than others, or take different times to complete? Remove the limit on the number of constructions. Smaller players will still find that their constructions cost a greater proportion of their income, but at least this cost does not escalate. Smaller players would further benefit from the next suggestion...

Get rid of HCT research, and replace it with 'Mining Stations', which are constructions required to mine roids. One MS per 100 roids? Roid-heavy players would be forced to divert some construction time towards MS-building. Perhaps the space freed up on the tech tree could be used for researches which enable new buildings. Currently, research never leads to new construction options, which is a bit boring.

Construction queuing! I can't stress this one enough. There's no good reason for not including this. This would work well if constructions did take different times, and some constructions have short build times.

Construction dependencies. Perhaps the construction of certain advanced buildings might require the construction of earlier buildings? Anyone who has ever played... well, pretty much any computer strategy game ever will be familiar with the concept. The only purpose of this suggestion is to add a bit more depth and complexity to the game, but I think that's a good enough reason.

Feel free to criticise these ideas or add new ones of your own below.
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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 14:03   #2
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

These seem like reasonable ideas to me. I wouldn't mind roid research switched to a construction. I am not sure completely lifting the limit on constructions is wise, especially if they have a flat cost associated with them. Distorter whores will go crazy for sure. Part of the reason there is a cost gradient like there is, is to discourage abuses, because there is a serious opportunity cost in building that many structures. One thought might be to put an increasing cost on building two many of the same building rather then the total number of buildings. Even for the big players late in the game they don't build many constructs, not because they can't afford them, but the cost doesn't justify the expense. All in all not bad suggestions imo.
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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 15:07   #3
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

I don't agree with your other ideas but I do like Construction queuing!
This would really make life a little more simple for alot of people. Especially those who have to work or go to school or even get some sleep. With this option I would have an additional 10 minutes on my lunch break to eat and talk with my wife most days.
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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 15:17   #4
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

I agree that there is a lot that you can do in order to change the way in which constructions work in this game as has already been discussed in the construction ....... thread

In relation to your point I dont like the idea of having a flat cost its too open to abuse maybe a cost related to the number of asteroids you have already or to your income per tick.

For example it could be 750 of each resource * (Total income per tick)/7000 or something or possibly 750 of each resource * total roids over/100 or something of that sort.

Im not sure how you would like to work construction queuing how many could you have in the queue what if you dont hav enough resources when you have to start the next construction.

I like the idea of linking constructions with research but dont abolish HCT thats what keeps the big planets from getting incomes hugely bigger than everyone elses quickly. Just my views

Any thoughts?
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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 15:57   #5
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I am not sure completely lifting the limit on constructions is wise, especially if they have a flat cost associated with them. Distorter whores will go crazy for sure. Part of the reason there is a cost gradient like there is, is to discourage abuses, because there is a serious opportunity cost in building that many structures.
It can't be abuse if everyone can do it. You're right to say that people would build more distorters, but others would respond by building more amps (and, unlike distorters, amps give you relatively little advantage in keeping your roids, so amp-heavy players would benefit more from the reduction of costs at high levels).

There are a couple of simple and obvious solutions: if construction times are variable, make distorters take longer to build than other constructions. Perhaps even make them longer to build than amps (although that might make them useless if the amp advantage is too great). Furthermore, if you have to build Mining Stations to mine your roids, you can't build as many distorters, so there's a natural process for making sure that people who are 'too' successful from using distorters have to slow down their distorter growth. In short, the limiting factor on constructions is the time it takes to build them; having an artificial limit at 150 is silly. If it didn't exist now, nobody would want to introduce it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom32
In relation to your point I dont like the idea of having a flat cost its too open to abuse maybe a cost related to the number of asteroids you have already or to your income per tick.
Why would buildings be more expensive for people with a higher income? I mean, what's the 'real world' justification for this? Sure, you could argue that builders on a rich planet might want paying more for their services, but I think that's stretching realism a bit too far. As for determining cost by number of roids, that's what Mining Stations do. Say a Mining Station takes 24 hours to build - that 24 hours of lost construction time would make a much bigger difference over the course of a round than the current system of escalating costs does, and would only hit the players with lots of roids, leaving the newbies and lowbies unaffected.

Again, the limiting factor we should use is time, and time is the fairest resource to use because everyone gets the same amount of it. (except people who start late; perhaps late signups should start with some constructions in place?)

I genuinely can't see what 'abuse' would arise from this. People wouldn't necessarily build more constructions than they do now, they would just cost less (actually, the first few constructions would probably cost more) and the cost would stay stable throughout the round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom32
I like the idea of linking constructions with research but dont abolish HCT thats what keeps the big planets from getting incomes hugely bigger than everyone elses quickly.
I'm not suggesting abolishing HCT, just moving it to be a Construction instead of a Research. I agree that there needs to be some factor limiting the growth of big planets, but a research-based solution is not the only way of doing this. Also, making some new space on the tech tree could provide some opportunities for new, interesting research which makes the game more fun . We've had the same tech tree for a very long time now (with some tweaks to the Waves tree) and it's starting to get boring.
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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 16:31   #6
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

I like this!

Ow, and while we are at it, some rebuild construction queue would be nice aswell. Atm its 'way to easy' to ruin some construction whore (be it distorter / amp or finance) his round by destroying an entire round of work by landing a few structure killer waves. I would love to see some compensation where its possible to repair lost constructions in a reduced timeframe and perhaps at a lower cost aswell.
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Unread 18 Oct 2006, 17:42   #7
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Why would buildings be more expensive for people with a higher income? I mean, what's the 'real world' justification for this? Sure, you could argue that builders on a rich planet might want paying more for their services, but I think that's stretching realism a bit too far. As for determining cost by number of roids, that's what Mining Stations do. Say a Mining Station takes 24 hours to build - that 24 hours of lost construction time would make a much bigger difference over the course of a round than the current system of escalating costs does, and would only hit the players with lots of roids, leaving the newbies and lowbies unaffected.
The real world justification for it would be the way in which people who have higher incomes get a higher % income tax on the amount they earn over a certain value this is basically the same idea. I didn't really understand your idea about mining stations the first time you said it but have to say Im warming up to it now but one small querey how would it work at the start i.e. can you mine any roids without a mining station.

I still dont like the idea of having all of the constructions as a flat cost at leat certainly not all the way through maybe go for an idea where the first few constructions have the cost going up and then leave it constant at say 20 constructions. There has to be a max number of constructions or the scanners and dist whores will build all round and thats of no benefit to anyone and they can afford to due to ally fund. Hope that answers your questions but loving the mining station idea now
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Unread 19 Oct 2006, 10:18   #8
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I like this!

Ow, and while we are at it, some rebuild construction queue would be nice aswell. Atm its 'way to easy' to ruin some construction whore (be it distorter / amp or finance) his round by destroying an entire round of work by landing a few structure killer waves. I would love to see some compensation where its possible to repair lost constructions in a reduced timeframe and perhaps at a lower cost aswell.
While that sounds quite nice. I've never seen anyone hurt by "a few structure killer waves," certainly not enough to destroy an entire round of work. And this is a war game, you *should* be able to destroy constructions. One should have his factories knocked down every few days.

If you believe otherwise, try this:

Pick any race mid-late round. Go to the universal ships screen and work out the cost of the SKs as a % of the rest of that races ships. Then tell me they have any bearing on the game.
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Unread 19 Oct 2006, 11:31   #9
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

The flat cost for construction I’m not too sure about. It makes people specialising in a certain thing a lot easier to do and I’m not sure the dist whore situation and the need for pure scan planets is that good for the game. I also think that a removal of the limits isn’t a great idea because of the same reason.

What I would support though is something someone else mentions above and that the cost escalating based more on how many of that structure type you have rather than overall. You could also set the limits (and maybe make the limits lower) per type rather than overall thus making things more accessible over all.

Actually what I would probably do based on your ideas would be to shake the ‘types’ of construction up. I would have cost and limits based on construction groups. These would be something like
  • Military – These would be the factories
  • Finance – Refineries and Finance Centres
  • Security – Amps, Distorters and Security Centres
  • Infrastructure – Research Labs and other such constructions

Each group would have a limit on how many you can build, either the same for each group or perhaps different amounts for each group. Costing of each would also increase based on how many of that type you have built.

On military I would make it so that the amount of ships that could be built at once by each factory would be limited. It would obviously need staggered so that light factories can build more than heavy factories and it may also need to be offset by race as well.

The Infrastructure group is where your dependency idea would come in. As well as the current Research lab option there would be constructions that would unlock new options in the others. For example bigger factories that can build more ships, perhaps cheaper and quicker also, or more efficient mines and such like

I’ve refrained from putting HCT into the constructions simply because I have one major problem with that and that’s SK’s. The most common use of SK’s seems to be clueless idiots in the midrange of the game against new/small players often for no obvious reason. Now if your ability to mine was linked to your constructions which could be killed you give these idiots even more power to destroy the lower end of the game. And what happens if they wipe out all the HCT constructions, how is a planet meant to survive without the ability to mine their roids at all and if they also lose their factories they really are screwed. If there could be a way to get around this problem then I would include a HCT group also.

On the constructions queue, I’ve always said it’s a good idea BUT there’s has to be some benefit to doing it in real time. Perhaps have queued constructions take a little longer or costs a little more


Oh and I know your saying time should be limit on amount and I’m saying it should be a hard limit. My justification from a Real World pov is that you only have a limited amount of space on a planet. You wouldn’t be able to build unlimited scanning facilities or disruptions facilities in the real world as you would run out of space so it makes sense to have some kind of limit in my eyes.
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Unread 19 Oct 2006, 14:38   #10
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
The flat cost for construction I’m not too sure about. It makes people specialising in a certain thing a lot easier to do and I’m not sure the dist whore situation and the need for pure scan planets is that good for the game. I also think that a removal of the limits isn’t a great idea because of the same reason.
That's a problem with scans and distorters, not a problem with flat construction costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
What I would support though is something someone else mentions above and that the cost escalating based more on how many of that structure type you have rather than overall. You could also set the limits (and maybe make the limits lower) per type rather than overall thus making things more accessible over all.
Why is this a good idea? I fully understand your suggestion, but nowhere do you say what possible benefit the game or its players would gain from it.

My main objection to this approach is that it would force everyone to have very similar constructions. My suggestion was based on the principle that adding more variety and choice to construction options would be a good thing that would make the game more interesting. Giving people more options, then forcing them to build certain types of constructions is pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Actually what I would probably do based on your ideas would be to shake the ‘types’ of construction up. I would have cost and limits based on construction groups. These would be something like
  • Military – These would be the factories
  • Finance – Refineries and Finance Centres
  • Security – Amps, Distorters and Security Centres
  • Infrastructure – Research Labs and other such constructions

Each group would have a limit on how many you can build, either the same for each group or perhaps different amounts for each group. Costing of each would also increase based on how many of that type you have built.
This is, imo, better than the current setup, but it still feels quite arbitrary. It just 'feels' wrong to say that your 10th security building should cost more than your first finance building. Having separate limits for each group also feels wrong. For example, imagine a planet ruled by a totalitarian dictatorship where security is the prime concern: why would such a planet have any problem with building lots of security centres, since they aren't building as many finance centres? The point is that if I want to play the game as a totalitarian dictator of a planet with a vast security apparatus, the game shouldn't be trying to stop me. Some real-world comparisons: North Korea would have lots of security buildings and quite a lot of military buildings, Britain would have lots of financial buildings and a moderate number of security and military buildings, the US would have an even split of each, Japan would probably have lots of security buildings but relatively few security or military ones. Such variety is what makes the world more interesting, and limits would simply enforce dull conformity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
On military I would make it so that the amount of ships that could be built at once by each factory would be limited. It would obviously need staggered so that light factories can build more than heavy factories and it may also need to be offset by race as well.
I like this idea. It was extensively discussed in this thread, and there even seemed to be a consensus by the end of the thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
The Infrastructure group is where your dependency idea would come in. As well as the current Research lab option there would be constructions that would unlock new options in the others. For example bigger factories that can build more ships, perhaps cheaper and quicker also, or more efficient mines and such like
Hmm. I'm ambivalent on this, since I'm not really sure about breaking buildings down into groups. I like the idea of being able to build better factories and so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I’ve refrained from putting HCT into the constructions simply because I have one major problem with that and that’s SK’s. The most common use of SK’s seems to be clueless idiots in the midrange of the game against new/small players often for no obvious reason. Now if your ability to mine was linked to your constructions which could be killed you give these idiots even more power to destroy the lower end of the game. And what happens if they wipe out all the HCT constructions, how is a planet meant to survive without the ability to mine their roids at all and if they also lose their factories they really are screwed. If there could be a way to get around this problem then I would include a HCT group also.
This is similar to the first argument: it's not a problem with Mining Stations, it's a problem with SKs. However, I agree that SKs are bad. A few possible solutions:

1) Make SKs simply 'disable' buildings until they can be (cheaply and quickly) repaired, instead of destroying them completely.

2) Remove SKs entirely

3) Add a 'Surface Defence System' construction which would provide some kind of defensive shield to constructions, with each SDS being able to give 100% protection to, say, 10 other constructions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
On the constructions queue, I’ve always said it’s a good idea BUT there’s has to be some benefit to doing it in real time. Perhaps have queued constructions take a little longer or costs a little more
Another statement without any backup . Why does there have to be a benefit to doing it in real time? If we want to rescue the game from the mentally-warped obsessives who currently dominate, we have to stop giving them advantages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Oh and I know your saying time should be limit on amount and I’m saying it should be a hard limit. My justification from a Real World pov is that you only have a limited amount of space on a planet. You wouldn’t be able to build unlimited scanning facilities or disruptions facilities in the real world as you would run out of space so it makes sense to have some kind of limit in my eyes.
You've actually got me on this one. I'll agree that a limit on total number of constructions is a good idea if:

* It becomes possible to destroy old constructions (possibly recouping part of their cost in the process)
* Old buildings can be replaced by more effective new ones later in the game (for example, your initial Refineries can be replaced by Super-Refineries which you have researched, either by being destroyed and replaced or by some kind of 'upgrade' option which requires construction time)

I don't want there to be any point in the round where players are simply forced to stop building because they've run out of space. There's no excuse for letting players have nothing to do for the last few weeks of the round.
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Unread 19 Oct 2006, 15:10   #11
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Having separate limits for each group also feels wrong. For example, imagine a planet ruled by a totalitarian dictatorship where security is the prime concern: why would such a planet have any problem with building lots of security centres, since they aren't building as many finance centres? The point is that if I want to play the game as a totalitarian dictator of a planet with a vast security apparatus, the game shouldn't be trying to stop me.
I've had a few proposals around the place (i think with Micromanagement), where players could choose their Type of Government in addition to Race. I envisaged 4 types, and these could reflect varying amounts of construction types (in additon to all the other variations i had).

Mind if i pinch the idea?

Edit: i've been naughty and not read the rest of the thread. I just noticed this bit. Apologies all for the hijack. Blame the Palastinians for giving everyone the idea.
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Unread 19 Oct 2006, 18:08   #12
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

The construction queue thing should've been done ages ago, people do have to sleep and work.

As for construction costs, why not make them (number of existing construction type * 1000)? So if I really want 100+ distorters it'll cost me from nothing to the first all the way to 99k of each resource (a total of 4.95m of each). However if I go for a more balanced planet such as 50 distorters and 50 security centres then it would only go up to 49k of each, a total of 2.45m of each resource.

So if someone wants to be unscannable theres nothing stopping them, however a player who invests in a healthy balance of different constructions would get if far cheaper.
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Unread 19 Oct 2006, 21:09   #13
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

I agree that the costs of constructions and the increase is very daunting for for the smaller planets, often they have to chose to construct or build ships.

Perhaps the cost should increase for each type rather than every type, but a maximum no of total constructions would apply.

This would increase the costs on the same basis for the scanner and the Disto whore, but give relief to the standard player who builds some of each type, rather than a majority of one.
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Unread 20 Oct 2006, 02:47   #14
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

I think research/construction should be que, b/c most ppl have to work and it would be nice to plan your whole round with que as long as you have the resources.
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Unread 20 Oct 2006, 08:55   #15
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Perhaps the cost should increase for each type rather than every type, but a maximum no of total constructions would apply.

This would increase the costs on the same basis for the scanner and the Disto whore, but give relief to the standard player who builds some of each type, rather than a majority of one.
Yes, but the effect of this would still be to make dist whoring cheaper than it currently is.

Perhaps there is another way of solving the dist whore problem? Are we even sure that it is a problem? It might be possible that the negative effects of distorters could be solved in other ways - first we would need to have a debate about what those negative effects are
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Unread 20 Oct 2006, 15:14   #16
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

It seems like I am the only one that seems quite satisfied with the current construction system.
Your example that someone has to spend an entire days inc on any construction is really a bit over the top - even with 100 roids it take only 15 ticks - I don't think that more than 10% of the players gonna hit the construction limit anyway.
The percentage system allows players to get along with a very low amount of buildings - 20 are enough if you are crazy for fleet value.
I like the fact that somebody has to make relatively difficult decisions
Will it pay off if I go for 60 Finance Centers - how many roids do I need then?
If I go for being virtually unscannable - how many fleet value and res through bank hacking am I going to loose?
Should I spend extra money for redundancy in the production?
Is it useful to pay 100k each for a mine that late in the game?
Shall I go for extra resources by research 50 cons and dump mines or rush for battleships?
etcetc

I think the system is rather balanced and vote against any dramatic changes. A change that might help vs the extreme amount of amps and dist might be to cap them similar to finance centers but at 100.
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Unread 20 Oct 2006, 16:44   #17
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

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Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Yes, but the effect of this would still be to make dist whoring cheaper than it currently is.

Perhaps there is another way of solving the dist whore problem? Are we even sure that it is a problem? It might be possible that the negative effects of distorters could be solved in other ways - first we would need to have a debate about what those negative effects are
no it would be exactly the same cost as it is now, the same for the scanner each construction costs 1000 x (number of same type of construction)

what I am suggesting is that the normal player can build 3 factories which would cost 1000 each and not 1000 x (number of constructions) unless he built 2 of the same type then it would be 1000 x (number of same type of construction)
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Unread 20 Oct 2006, 17:09   #18
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Perhaps there is another way of solving the dist whore problem? Are we even sure that it is a problem?
It's not really a game problem more than a tactical problem. Because there are dist whores there is a need for high amp scanners. The mechanics of the game currently are fine with regards to scan and dist planets.

One thing we are forgetting about the cost of constructions is that mines contribute to your resources quite a bit. Combined with Core Extraction building more constructions is not overwhelming in price.
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Unread 21 Oct 2006, 08:25   #19
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

no it's not fine, the huge reliance on scan planets is just ****ing stupid and makes the game for scanners nothing much short of torture, honestly.
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Unread 21 Oct 2006, 10:42   #20
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

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Originally Posted by Wandows
Stuff about structure killers
Just to clarify, at current, one 400th of the universe's value is invested in structure killers (capable of killing an incredible 67 total structures).

I guess there's probably around 2000x(10 to 15) constructions with maybe another 1000 popping up every day.
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Unread 21 Oct 2006, 10:52   #21
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

you know fully well what he means and are intentionally being exceptionally irrelevant
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Unread 21 Oct 2006, 11:41   #22
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Just to clarify, at current, one 400th of the universe's value is invested in structure killers (capable of killing an incredible 67 total structures).

I guess there's probably around 2000x(10 to 15) constructions with maybe another 1000 popping up every day.
I'm sorry i wasn't clear enough, but i meant both SK's and Covert Oppers.

As for a counter-example. I think you are aware of the fact that eXi last round actively seeked out scanners that could scan them and knocked their construction level back to stoneage. An entire round those scanners (who are tiny, hardly have income etc) spend their resources and time on building up a top scanner planet with 140+ amps, and yes that is extremely expensive for a small planet (both in time and invested resources). And that was ruined once your ally found them and dealt with them.

Now i'm not saying you used any wrong tactics there, as i believe its a nessecary part of the game. I just believe SK's, or the structure killing cov ops, are far to damaging to the planets where it matters. Hence a queue that allows you to repair buildings would be nice, for example in batches of 5 at normal production speed and at half the original or current cost. This will keep structure killing a usefull tactic, while it won't leave a long lasting (read until end of the round) damage on the target planet.
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Unread 21 Oct 2006, 12:58   #23
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Re: Research/construction suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
you know fully well what he means and are intentionally being exceptionally irrelevant
No I wasn't, I was trying to get an idea where he was coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I'm sorry i wasn't clear enough, but i meant both SK's and Covert Oppers.

As for a counter-example. I think you are aware of the fact that eXi last round actively seeked out scanners that could scan them and knocked their construction level back to stoneage. An entire round those scanners (who are tiny, hardly have income etc) spend their resources and time on building up a top scanner planet with 140+ amps, and yes that is extremely expensive for a small planet (both in time and invested resources). And that was ruined once your ally found them and dealt with them.

Now i'm not saying you used any wrong tactics there, as i believe its a nessecary part of the game. I just believe SK's, or the structure killing cov ops, are far to damaging to the planets where it matters. Hence a queue that allows you to repair buildings would be nice, for example in batches of 5 at normal production speed and at half the original or current cost. This will keep structure killing a usefull tactic, while it won't leave a long lasting (read until end of the round) damage on the target planet.
Covert ops are definitely a lot more relevant to the game as it is. I'm very concious that if they were any less useful then they would probably be another waste of time. It's quite difficult for players with a lot of constructions to keep 25-man amp/distorter hacks away, that's actually a reason a lot of people don't like focusing on distorters, so i'm told. 30-man hacks are much more easy, first priority alone will nearly always resist these. To be honest, I don't think they're that off-balance.

I'd like to point out a few things about this: 'knocked their construction level back to stoneage.' Firstly, it's not true. It's very difficult to take on scanners mid-round with a million other things going on. Difficult in so far that the main scanner in question was never taken below about 130 amps and continued to scan anyone of his choice (except maybe cmd_carl ). I left it with one of our BCs to personally try and limit the incoming the guys with 147 distorters were getting. It's one thing trying to level a big player, it's another trying to level a scanner with security first priority and good defence vs what has to be small fleets.

I think i'm right in saying that scanner was knocked down (by literally 15 amps at best) twice. He actually benefitted in some ways because he lost all his factories too, making him an even more powerful scanner. The other scanner who was most attributable to incoming was crusie who we slowed down a bit but she found it fairly easy to stay at 145 or so amps.
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