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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 09:09   #1
JonnyBGood
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Dangerous subversives are after our children.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5397846.stm
Quote:
Mr Foley - a member of the House of Representatives caucus on missing and exploited children
A good source of phone numbers I'd imagine.



However to provide a fair and balanced perspective I'm going to post a story critical of the left!

Quote:
More than half of all the state-run enterprises inspected in Cuba's capital Havana have cheated their customers, a Cuban communist newspaper has reported.
Those filthy communists. You'd never see anything like that in a good capitalist country!
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 09:34   #2
Nodrog
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Those filthy communists. You'd never see anything like that in a good capitalist country!
Juvenile soundbites aside, the obvious difference is that in a capitalist country you generally have a neutral legal system and collection of consumer protection agencies to which you can contest this sort of thing, as well as a network of independent media outlets (both old and internet) which can report on the problems without fear of censure.
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 09:38   #3
JonnyBGood
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Juvenile soundbites aside, the obvious difference is that in a capitalist country you generally have an independent neutral legal system and collection of consumer protection agencies to which you can contest this sort of thing, as well as a network of independent media outlets (both old and internet) which can report on the problems without fear of censure.
Call me Gillian but if the end result is the same nobody's really going to give a shit.
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 09:40   #4
Nodrog
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Are you claiming that over half the private enterprises in most Western countries are cheating their customers, and if so, what is your source for this?
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 09:46   #5
JonnyBGood
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

No, I meant in how corruption is dealt with.
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 10:44   #6
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Are you claiming that over half the private enterprises in most Western countries are cheating their customers, and if so, what is your source for this?
The original quote said that state run industries have cheated their customers, it's not really clear how often this is or whatever. I'd definitely imagine close to 90% of retailers in the UK have cheated someone at least once - even if it's just dishonest selling or short changing customers or whatnot. But sure, the UK and US are definitely less corrupt in this direct sense overall.

But, I'm not really convinced making this a cap vs comm issue is particularly useful :
a) Cuba is a third world economy - corruption rates are always going to be dramatically higher in such circumstances. Corruption is always going to be difficult to measure but other research puts Cuba's rating as 59th in the world's (perceived) corruption index - less corrupt than Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Saudi Arabia - all of which are considerably richer than it (and regardless whether you think they are capitalist or not are almost certainly 'less socialist' than Cuba. (source)

b) Cuba is under a blockade and so pretty much the entire economy is dominated by people's trying to get by - see point (a).

c) Some of the offences here wouldn't even be offences in other countries. Retailers selling at high rates is not usually deemed as corruption in the west, for instance. When Britain had rent control there was definitely corruption in some cases where landlords would accept payments "off the books" in addition to the officially reported rent. When rent control this "corruption" disappeared - it's not like the situation was any better for tenants in those individual cases, it just meant it was legal for landlords to charge the higher rates (well, it's not that simple but you get the idea).

This is not to excuse Cuba of course, no doubt corruption is a serious problem as both the Castros have indicated. And no doubt the structure of the economy lends itself to people having to undertake these tactics (and conversely people being victim to them - if there are monopoly suppliers and so on). Furthermore corruption is a serious problem globally and one of the achievements of the English speaking countries (and Scandanavia) is lower rates of corruption (this might be linked to protestantism I guess)

However, in the case of Cuba it's not like switching economic model is likely to reduce crime/corruption overall - Cuba's neighbours on the whole have less state involvement in their economy and higher (perceived) rates of corruption. I would certainly endorse more openess in Cuba's political system, but they are still under economic (and ocassionally indirect military) attack by the United States and in such circumstances it's easy to see why they do not rush down that route (although I would certainly disagree with many of their policies - including all of their stuff regarding the free press, dissidents etc)
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 17:43   #7
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well the banking industry is kind of a big scam
This could mean anything. To the extent that our money system is a scam (fiat currency), its largely the governments fault rather than anything to do with individual banks.

Quote:
and oil prices don't seem to be related to anything, and we know that UK cars are vastly more expensive than cars in other countries etc etc etc
The fact that companies/people charge more than you want them to for goods doesnt really have anything to do with this thread; the article gave examples of what it meant by customers being 'cheated', and none of them were related to goods costing more than what people from the internet think they should cost.

Quote:

Sorry Nod, the whole system is a big scam. Once we factor in the the working class is being exploited for its Labour power by the owners of the means of production well it all seems pretty clear
haha yeah, totally man


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But, I'm not really convinced making this a cap vs comm issue is particularly useful (...) a) Cuba is a third world economy - corruption rates are always going to be dramatically higher in such circumstances.
Yeah I completely agree, I was just responding to JBGs attempt at equivalence in the original post.

Last edited by Nodrog; 2 Oct 2006 at 17:57.
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 23:07   #8
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
pensions now there's a big fraud.
I'm afraid that if you don't desist immediately from this kind of radical statement I may have to cancel the next meeting of the T&F Fan Club!
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 01:30   #9
JonnyBGood
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yeah I completely agree, I was just responding to JBGs attempt at equivalence in the original post.
You misspelt humour.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 03:23   #10
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

The last i heard was the fbi were starting to look into this deeper
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 11:12   #11
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Are you claiming that over half the private enterprises in most Western countries are cheating their customers, and if so, what is your source for this?
only half????
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 02:03   #12
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

This is brilliant, apparently hes gone into rehab for alcoholism and said hed been molested as a kid. Its evens on bi-polar disorder being mentioned. Someone needs to put a manly arm round his shoulder and say

'mark you want to stick your willy up 16 year old boys bums, your only mistake was trying this in florida, go to britain'
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 06:16   #13
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

The news about Foley is just a diversion so you don't notice the United States new past time - Shooting Kids in School.

Foley was known about last November for doing what is only now being played in the media.
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 06:30   #14
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Are you claiming that over half the private enterprises in most Western countries are cheating their customers, and if so, what is your source for this?
I work for one of the larger wireless companies in the USA and I can tell you that we do systematically try to cheat our customers. A smart person that reads their bill will never be cheated but most of our customer are quite stupid. When you sign up optional features are tacked on free for the first month all you have to do is cancel within 30 days if you don't want to pay for it. Thousands if not millions of customers never bother to notice things like roadside assistance or voice connect. Some even have sms packages that never get used. I used to think it was shady sales reps and dealers but this also happens with online orders.

Frequently we have system "upgrades" that usually cause alot of billing errors that customer have to call in to have corrected. If you figure how many affected users actually bother to call in the number of people that dont call in never get credits for the errors and thus are cheated.

Another big scam is Rebates. Only 30% of people actually send the forms in an usually half of them are denied and have to resubmit their information. If one little thing is wrong with the rebate form the rebate is denied. And thousands of rebate submissions get "lost" in the mail.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 11:02   #15
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Re: Dangerous subversives are after our children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I work for one of the larger wireless companies in the USA and I can tell you that we do systematically try to cheat our customers. A smart person that reads their bill will never be cheated but most of our customer are quite stupid. When you sign up optional features are tacked on free for the first month all you have to do is cancel within 30 days if you don't want to pay for it. Thousands if not millions of customers never bother to notice things like roadside assistance or voice connect. Some even have sms packages that never get used. I used to think it was shady sales reps and dealers but this also happens with online orders.
You see, this would be illegal in Britain. Because we're better than you.
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