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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 21:27   #1
Duncasaurus
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Exclamation Covert Operations Pointless?

Well atleast the ship sabotage one.

I mean for instance look at the earliest you could use the ship sabotage which is round 72 assuming you priotised Cov-op research. I dont have the exact numbers to hand but you can only destroy a few ten (a few hundred at the very most) is insignificant among the 2-10 thousand ship fleets of the first few ticks. 10 ticks out of protection and the covert operation looses even the slightest chance of making a difference to a fleet. And the later the game goes on the more and more pointless it gets. I'd love to see the total number of those cov-ops and the total number of cov-ops in total at the end of a R22. I'd predict a incredibly small %, and even then I'd amount it to people using it just to gain XP rather then its actual usefulness.

I propose a few possible alterations to that cov-op either:
1) Replace this cov-op with a new one that actually serves a useful purpose (be it towards the beginning of the round like research set back), something towards the end of the round or something that could be used throughout the round.

2)Change the number of ships the current amount of agents can destroy. So say instead of 10 agents being required to destroy 50 ships (or whatever the damage is) change it so they can destroy a worthwhile amount e.g. 300-400.

3) Change the number of agents required to do the mission e.g. only 5 like bank hacking. (Where the 5 destroy what currently the 10 do - so similar to 2.)

4) Have further ship research after the building destruction to increase the effectiveness of the ship destruction. So say u reach level 7 (or whatever it is for Havoc) with level 8 being Ship sabotage level 2, and cov-op level 9 being ship sabotage level 3 (Each could increase num of agents required but also increase damage a single agent could do)

Post your thoughts please.
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 21:32   #2
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

remove cov op from pa. plz
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 21:35   #3
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

covop is gay
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 21:35   #4
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

It dont seem so interesting to me.
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 21:53   #5
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

remove it, please.
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 23:00   #6
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Don't cry just because you got hit a few times. Cov ops is fine as it is.

And yes, we know the ship cov ops is usually pointless. Don't use it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 23:05   #7
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

The ship cov op is poor because it randomly chooses ships to blow up based on number rather than value. It was handy in Round 16 against Terran XP planets that only had battleships, since Terran BS cost so much and you were guaranteed to kill some useful ships.
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Unread 7 Sep 2007, 23:35   #8
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Or to check what ships a planet has home. The possibilities are endless. Look beyond just brute force.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 8 Sep 2007, 00:46   #9
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

People who complain about covert ops has small brains and even smaller sexual organs!
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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 18:36   #10
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

I liked the one of fractioning Sabotage research. In fact, I believe is a very good idea. And one that can be applied to all the Cov Op tech tree. And one that should not require too much work to implement.

As I see it myself. Each Cov Op baseic tech, should be further researched to: normal and then advanced (each of this requiring an approriate number of ticks to be determined). Each level (a) increases the minimum required and maximum allowed number of agents, (b) makes it more expensive, (c) but more efficient.

This way players may choose X or Y branch and develop it. Maybe some, for whatever reason, would choose to be advance ship sabotagers.

Personally, I only steal money. :P
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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 18:59   #11
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Same

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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 18:59   #12
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
I liked the one of fractioning Sabotage research. In fact, I believe is a very good idea. And one that can be applied to all the Cov Op tech tree. And one that should not require too much work to implement.

As I see it myself. Each Cov Op baseic tech, should be further researched to: normal and then advanced (each of this requiring an approriate number of ticks to be determined). Each level (a) increases the minimum required and maximum allowed number of agents, (b) makes it more expensive, (c) but more efficient.

This way players may choose X or Y branch and develop it. Maybe some, for whatever reason, would choose to be advance ship sabotagers.
Unnecessary complexity. As it stands, very few people actually understand how and why cov ops work. Hell, I must've answered the question "how much alert do I need to be immune?" a dozen times already, these last 5 days alone. Making some cov ops stronger than others, adding branching to the cov op tech tree and dynamically changing the efficiency of certain cov ops is a step in the wrong direction.

If anything we should make them somewhat easier to understand. For example, implement one fixed value for alert (dependant on race, government, population and/or constructions) instead of the current "slowly increasing when below and slowly decreasing when above the maximum" system, which really adds nothing to the game. The only thing you'd be missing out on would be the +10 alert planets get when they're successfully cov op'ed, which really is only a punishment for organisation. For single cov oppers, the temporary stealth decrease they suffer every time they use a covert operation does exactly the same thing, and more efficiently.

Or one could think of giving each race a fixed stealth recovery rate (I'm thinking 8, but I'm flexible), so that people don't have to spend forever to calculate how often they can use cov op x, or cov op y, on planet a, or planet b, with i agents or j agents.

Or both at the same time!

The possibilities are endless.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 20:10   #13
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

If you want to change the ship sabotage it should be changed to being able to steal a handful of ships. This would be more usefull in my opinion as then the covert opper would gain the value from the stolen ships and might have some ships they could not build themselves. The number affected really don't need to be changed.

Granted the small numbers stolen won't be very usefull from 1 covert-op but over the course of the round could add up to a handy little fleet.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 02:08   #14
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

I would supress the ships cov op (or place it earlier in the research tree) and would use something more spectacular instead:
- fleet slot disruption: the fleet slot is unavailable for x ticks (if it's at base, the fleet slot can't be used, if it's launched, the fleet is delayed).
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 02:17   #15
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

That's pretty nasty though. Do it often enough and you effectively trap someone's fleet at home, ready to be stolen by the zik in your alliance who is coincidentially attacking those exact coords.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 09:17   #16
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Yes, would be horrible if we bring the war into a spacewar game again
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 09:24   #17
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

I'm just saying it might be a tad too powerful.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 10:17   #18
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Agreed, too powerful as Mz said.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 10:30   #19
Allfather
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Can never be too powerful when im playing it.
But if i played as "normal" person i suppose i would agree D:
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 11:29   #20
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

I love cov-ops. When i get incoming i set my guys research back like 50% over 20 ticks or something.. not because i think im big and clever, but its annoying and i know (s)he'll be pissed
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 12:59   #21
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

I wish people would stop making threads that elicit sane and well worded replies from Allfather:

Quote:
People who complain about covert ops has small brains and even smaller sexual organs!
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 20:32   #22
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

What HRH_H_Crab doesn't know about covert ops isn't worth knowing so yeah I agree with him
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 21:53   #23
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Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
I love cov-ops. When i get incoming i set my guys research back like 50% over 20 ticks or something.. not because i think im big and clever, but its annoying and i know (s)he'll be pissed
Someone tried that to me, so I paused my research after it finished ticking, then restarted it right before the tick a few times. And they eventually gave up.
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Unread 17 Sep 2007, 15:03   #24
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bullbars is on a distinguished road
Re: Covert Operations Pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Making some cov ops stronger than others, adding branching to the cov op tech tree and dynamically changing the efficiency of certain cov ops is a step in the wrong direction.

If anything we should make them somewhat easier to understand. For example, implement one fixed value for alert (dependant on race, government, population and/or constructions) instead of the current "slowly increasing when below and slowly decreasing when above the maximum" system, which really adds nothing to the game. The only thing you'd be missing out on would be the +10 alert planets get when they're successfully cov op'ed, which really is only a punishment for organisation. For single cov oppers, the temporary stealth decrease they suffer every time they use a covert operation does exactly the same thing, and more efficiently.

Or one could think of giving each race a fixed stealth recovery rate (I'm thinking 8, but I'm flexible), so that people don't have to spend forever to calculate how often they can use cov op x, or cov op y, on planet a, or planet b, with i agents or j agents.

Or both at the same time!

The possibilities are endless.
not necessarly , for those who have studied the art of covert op attacking, giving them more to play with can only be a good thing.
And isnt a slower rate of recovery a bit more fair on the game as a whole, i mean , when you launch an attack, you also have to wait for the fleet to get back before you can launch it again, so why not keep waiting for your stealth to increse as well.

I would be in favour of a covert op attack where ships could be stolen, most sucessfull covert op attackers i know are scanners too, and they have a hard enough time with the amout of ships they can get due to researching scans and covert ops, If a good scanner /covert op attacker had access to stealing ships,(s)he could use them then for attacking /defending.

It was pointed out to me earlier in ally chanell that that might be rubbish,and the game would fold with ships being stolen, but it dident kill the game when zikos became the only ones to steal ships and ETD's came about. Sure cant zikos still steal from zikos and etds now anyway.

wouldent it be marvelous if their was a covert op attack and a structure could be stolen, not only destroyed on the planet you hit,but actually stolen, there the cover op attacker gets even more value for his/her strike. granted ,that might get a bit sticky towards the end of the round when structure limits are reached, then just let the structure be destroyed
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