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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:43   #101
Kargool
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
For starters you could refrain from working with them.
Mark my words, I wont be anymore.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:45   #102
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
After all Fury and legion hardly won r5. Realistically they just had the most active posters.

Maybe if score rankings were removed you'd actually have to fight another alliance to beat them instead of merely accumulate a higher score. That was how things happened pre-pax after all.

I dunno, the game you seem to went to play is staggeringly far away from a) what I want and b) what PA started as.

Your reasons seem to come down to "people are idiots and need the game to give them goals to aim for". I'm fine with that but I don't really want the "goals for idiots" element to decide the round winner as well. Maybe you want some sort of quest system for alliances?
I haven't said perception cant get some things right but its usually a narrow window of correctness due to people generally having a narrow knowledgebase. You generally know your alliance and maybe the your fighting with or against and everything else is based on hearsay.

And lets be honest in the block rounds how many of the alliances really pulled their weight to a level that made them more deserving of being considered in the top group of alliances than the alliances. I would say theres many alliances who during these rounds have taken the decision to simply to try and kingmake one of the two real contendors and has hence rode teh coattails to gaining success while having worse rounds than many other alliances

People keep attacking me for stating that I'm trying to impose my way of playing onto others but going back would do that alot more as its will leave all alliances in one of 3 groups
  • The couple of elite contenders
  • The Alliances who decide to kingmake the elite alliances
  • The alliances who choose to fight their own battles but get no reconition of their acheivements and just get abused for being 'insignificant'

Alliances shouldnt be in the position where they are pressured into kingmaking another alliances simply because its the only way to get the people in the community who basically make the decisions under such a system's attention

And having goals JBG isnt something for 'idiots'. Humans are a species driven by goals. Every part of our lives be it at work or play has an element of achieving goals about it. Even under your system the goal system exists, the only diffference is the score way has a tangle and clear goals for people to aim for where as your system its all about making people think you have acheived these goals even if you havent
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:52   #103
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Gee, yet another classical Wakey, next round you try and make some round summary posts and lets all have a good dig at you whenever you are wrong.

Seriously, when was the last time you contributed positivly to anything?

Talk about pot kettle black here, you claim I am doing nothing but being negative, and here I actually sit down, write a round summary post and you do nothing but mock me, you sir are the worlds biggest hipocrite.

And btw, its always nice to go afterwards and pointing out that a prediction is wrong when you got all the facts and the possibility to see what has actually happend.

So this is my challenge to you Wakey, make round 23's round summary posts and I will be first in line to congratulate you for bringing something positive into the game.
I wasnt having a dig you ****ing retard, learn to read. I was using your summaries to highlight the problem with perception.

Oh and even if I was having a dig at your threads its hardly "looking at in hindsight" as I told you on IRC how retarded your comment about the top10 being locked was yet claiming that HA were having a good fight with us was when you posted it
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:58   #104
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
  • The couple of elite contenders
  • The Alliances who decide to kingmake the elite alliances
  • The alliances who choose to fight their own battles but get no reconition of their acheivements and just get abused for being 'insignificant'

Alliances shouldnt be in the position where they are pressured into kingmaking another alliances simply because its the only way to get the people in the community who basically make the decisions under such a system's attention
I'm going to bite in to this, excuse me. The first on the list is self-explanatory. These are the alliances, like Conspiracy Theory this round (again, I'm relying on Angryduck stating so), that target their enemies non-stop, not giving them a single breathe. The group where the winner most likely resides, that actually targets other alliances and attempts to (nowadays) stump the growth of the competing candidates. The kingmaking alliances are the ones that want for a reason or another take part in the competition of the first caste. These reasons may include horrific PMS, a grudge carried from round 3, a carrot misplaced in the rear end, or hopeless love towards an influential member of a top contender. You name it, they'll deliver it. These mainly get recognition for acting as meatshields, which they, realistically, are. Note that not all alliances are "pressured" into doing this - some have a very solid history of arselicking certain elite contenders to the very infinity.

The third caste includes those alliances that aren't top contenders and don't wish to participate. What I refuse here, is the "fight their own battles". While ZikUnion may have been targeted by multiple alliances as some of their people on strategy forums mentioned, I mean, really. Now as a high commander of a lower end alliance you're looking at the six member (or so?) ZikUnion, who are fighting their own dire wars against the multitude of alliances, and put up a smile on your face, thinking at least we fight real wars, we once every now and then launch an extra wave on Vision planets that happen to get under our raids.

No.

Really.

Eventually, one needs to make the split between the alliances that fight battles, and the alliances that spend the round accumulating score.

There's a difference.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 13:00   #105
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool

Before, in the earlier rounds, the admins and the mh's actually stepped in, took action and got applauded, now everyone knows a way to cheat the rules and can abuse it without any punishment.
LOL.

Cheats have always prospered in this game. The problem is, there is only certain types of evidence that the mh can use (quite rightly).

There have been times when I know a cheat and give the evidence. This couldnt be used. This could be from many alliances such as fang (they had a bot which allowed you to type into it 'jgp x:x:x or unit x:x:x' and it would give you the scans needed in less than a second) but MH just couldnt catch them cheating, right through to a certain dragons HC who had a scan planet and would so scans for everyone in the gal (he was in my gal). Myslef and Cypher reported him on many occasions but each time MH would tell us there was no cheating, until he finally got roided at which point he went into #support and pasted the passwords there for all his planets.

Even the infamous RB/Section incident wasn't caught ingame. Myslef and Ming on several occasions tried catching them cheating (we were suspicious for a long time before they were caught) and we had discussions with the people who ran the game but they couldnt catch them.
The only reason they got caught was because one member thought he woudl become pateam if he gave Spinner the password to the external site they used.

People dont even hide the fact they are cheating because they know it cant be traced in game, and unless it is they cant be closed.

Section who became Xan who became dragons, all cheated undetectably and profited from it.

Cheats will always prosper in this game because the rewards are so big (well as big as they can get in a text based war game).

So saying there used to be action taken against cheats is misguided at best, and plain stupid at worst.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 13:13   #106
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I haven't said perception cant get some things right but its usually a narrow window of correctness due to people generally having a narrow knowledgebase. You generally know your alliance and maybe the your fighting with or against and everything else is based on hearsay.

And lets be honest in the block rounds how many of the alliances really pulled their weight to a level that made them more deserving of being considered in the top group of alliances than the alliances. I would say theres many alliances who during these rounds have taken the decision to simply to try and kingmake one of the two real contendors and has hence rode teh coattails to gaining success while having worse rounds than many other alliances
I have no idea what you're responding to here but it certainly doesn't seem to have anything to do with my statement that, in fact, without ingame rankings pa would not just be a popularity contest, as you claimed. It would, in fact, be a wargame.

Quote:
People keep attacking me for stating that I'm trying to impose my way of playing onto others but going back would do that alot more as its will leave all alliances in one of 3 groups
  • The couple of elite contenders
  • The Alliances who decide to kingmake the elite alliances
  • The alliances who choose to fight their own battles but get no reconition of their acheivements and just get abused for being 'insignificant'
Actually there'd be far wider categories than that as pa history demonstrates when people are willing to put in the effort.

Quote:
Alliances shouldnt be in the position where they are pressured into kingmaking another alliances simply because its the only way to get the people in the community who basically make the decisions under such a system's attention
This is just madness and untrue. Xanadu r4 spring to mind.

Quote:
And having goals JBG isnt something for 'idiots'. Humans are a species driven by goals. Every part of our lives be it at work or play has an element of achieving goals about it. Even under your system the goal system exists, the only diffference is the score way has a tangle and clear goals for people to aim for where as your system its all about making people think you have acheived these goals even if you havent
Actually we're a species driven by evolution. And my point was that these were extra little goals ingame. The aim of the game is to win and to beat your opponents. I just dislike the way the ingame scoring system brings this about.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 13:41   #107
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Actually we're a species driven by evolution. And my point was that these were extra little goals ingame. The aim of the game is to win and to beat your opponents. I just dislike the way the ingame scoring system brings this about.

BLASPHEMY

We're a species driven by divine destiny, by the plans of God himself!

God wants Planetarion to be shit and die. Please stop resisting.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 13:42   #108
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

There is no god. Sue me.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 13:45   #109
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Mark my words, I wont be anymore.
So why the hell are you doing it this round?


You've bleated on about playing with honour and not breaking agreements, but either you knowingly worked with a cheating alliance or you chose to keep the alliance going even though you knew that cheating was happening.


Neither is particularly acceptable.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 14:05   #110
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Mark my words, I wont be anymore.
Good, I'm glad to hear.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 14:08   #111
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Don't count on it, Mzysajldhkaueheraa. Kargool retired once already.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 14:20   #112
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Don't count on it, Mzysajldhkaueheraa. Kargool retired once already.
Your forgetting the other 10 times he has said hes quitting
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 23:13   #113
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä

The third caste includes those alliances that aren't top contenders and don't wish to participate. What I refuse here, is the "fight their own battles". While ZikUnion may have been targeted by multiple alliances as some of their people on strategy forums mentioned, I mean, really. Now as a high commander of a lower end alliance you're looking at the six member (or so?) ZikUnion, who are fighting their own dire wars against the multitude of alliances, and put up a smile on your face, thinking at least we fight real wars, we once every now and then launch an extra wave on Vision planets that happen to get under our raids.

No.

Really.

Eventually, one needs to make the split between the alliances that fight battles, and the alliances that spend the round accumulating score.

There's a difference.

ZIKUNION came (as usual, late in round), and found a few people to hook up with. We fought as hard with limited resources as we could, and our aim was, within these limited confines to win the battle of the small allies. Congrats to XVX who beat us, and to Transcendency, whom we chased for every single minute, of every single hour, of every single day. For many of those days, our records matched up with anyone around, but if you are small taking a hit is a bigger issue, so its all swings and round abouts.

In the latter days of the round, we got bunched twice (Thanks VGN, Sat 4th Aug), enough that the blasted Kargool took delight in his posting declaring us dead. We also lost half the alliance due to RL/Work/Other, none of which stopped us trying 100% to go after what we set out to do

Small alliances will never win this game. And we know its not winnable thus. But within the limited confies of what can be done, we tried. I personally play for fun, but its max effort all the way, and no matter what the end result is, be it 25th, or 250th, ZU will if it comes to play, have this attitude.

Thank you to the guys who joined,

Codename Race Coords Score Contributed Score Value Size Status
AdmV0rl0n (P) Zik 14:5:11 3,315,452 3,315,452 2,245,892 1,545 HC
Sensey (P) Xan 14:5:3 2,555,182 2,555,182 1,925,482 778 HC
Enot (P) Zik 14:5:5 2,332,268 2,332,268 1,870,868 798 HC
Elf (P) Cat 14:5:1 751,199 751,199 274,079 279 HC
tartarus (P) Zik 20:4:5 2,145,264 458,116 1,544,784 1,423 BC
Steffko (P) Ter 14:5:12 1,679,440 1,679,440 1,590,460 292 BC

On the final day, some of the guys joined a joint raid on VGN as revenge for Sat4th Aug, with lots of flak around. We were out of the good ticks by luck, and some of the guys crashed instead of withdrawing, hence the last few ticks drop. With wisdom, we could have pulled and maybe been there or there abouts. But we'd made a fight of it to be top small alliance, and made whoever won out there fight for it.

Congrats to VGN and the three winners

AD - HC ZU
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 00:31   #114
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I haven't said perception cant get some things right but its usually a narrow window of correctness due to people generally having a narrow knowledgebase. You generally know your alliance and maybe the your fighting with or against and everything else is based on hearsay.
When you're talking about things like this, could you refer to which rounds exactly are you talking about?

As in, which rounds it was that alliances were regarded as winners, contenders, or generally worthy based on "perception and hearsay", without that also being the objective truth? I certainly can't remember any such round, so if you're claiming this to be a fact, refresh my memory a little.

True, it meant that not every alliance under the sky was accurately ranked and rated, but only those that made an impact on the main scene. Alliances had to make a name for themselves by displaying power (which required an alliance to act proactively and show what it can do in battle), not accumulating score (which can be done in a lot of passive, boring ways that do not require serious organization and involvement).
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 00:48   #115
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Granted, I shall say one thing about this round from a TGV perspective.

TGV had never really thought we would be in a position to challenge for the top spot. Before the round our two most important assets both declared unable to play, and we were unsure if we were to be able to pull together a command team. With me being away for three weeks and internal frictions at an all time high we also had several other issues that really did not make us confident at all about this round. (I was honestly thinking we would be unable to be in top ten)

Suddenly we were in a very strong position and we had many opportunities to stay up there, and to win the round. Sadly I dont think any of us in command had been aware or prepared for the opportunity of us going for the top. We also lost our American HC, first due to work comittment, then to a car accident. He's still recovering from swelling to the brain and is in a pretty bad shape so there was plenty of things going on around command which wasn't well, Xanilus and Macaroth and notsure were excellent as hc's but I think we all were more or less baffled and unprepared for taking tough decisions dropping naps.

In all honesty I'll say we were inexperienced in one way, but we still wanted to play the round our way and we stuck to the ones we had napped and allied with.

ROCK decided to drop the nap with VGN and lost out because of that as they thought they had a good chance at winning, and when they got raped by VGN and Jenova, I have to be honest to say that we were glad we hadn't canceled the nap which we at one point did consider when ROCK canceled it.

At another point we got encouraged to attack ROCK but refused to do so, yet again on the principles that we had to have a reason outside gainage in targets and roids to cancel a nap.

Maybe we saw nap's as more constant than others usually do, and that in the end was a bad strategic move by us, but we wanted to stay loyal to those who we had given our words that we would stay loyal to.

Maybe next time around TGV will be slightly more cynical about our approaches to nap's, but I dont see our use of the naps we had in any way as being chicken, more to honor the agreement we had made with the ones we were napped to.

We gave a promise to our allies to help them out as equally as they promised to help us out. In the end I'd like to think that the ones that were napped with us felt that we actually did do an effort and helped the ones we had given our word to.

This is in no way an attempt to hide the fact that we didn't win, merely an attempt at trying to sum up some of the reasonings behind the things we did.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 02:09   #116
Makhil
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

cynical you were when you kept attacking gals with TGV members in, while those members were granted immunity by the other gal allys...
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 02:16   #117
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Why bother playing this game at all. I wont anymore, thats for sure.
Promises, promises.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 22:45   #118
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
cynical you were when you kept attacking gals with TGV members in, while those members were granted immunity by the other gal allys...
As a general rule -- we only hit planets in gals with TGV members if they were especially hostile towards us, or who's alliance was hostile towards us.

I will admit that his round this policy was inadvertantly broken on more than one occassion - however anytime the HC's were made aware of those attacks - we made the effort to have them recalled.

No doubt vgn/jen can atest how often the target lists for attacks on ct/vsn/tof had to be redone because we wouldn't hit their non-hostile galmates in our own gals.
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