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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 16:53   #101
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
If every particle affects eachother without random factor according to god's masterplan
then theirs actually no such thing as free will amirite? Only the illusion of free will
That's another debate upon the nature of god. Look up Laplacian Determinism for the 19th century view from the science side.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 17:04   #102
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
2. You have to be a moron to make the statement 'you do have to be a moron to believe in random chance'. What are you basing that on? Don't even get me started on quantum mechanics.
Are you talking about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which states, more or less, that the more you know about one aspect of a subatomic particle, the less you can know about the other? That is quite a long way off from Random Chance.

If Random Chance were possible then it would be possible for a woman to become pregnant and have a child simply by looking at a man. Certainly it would be a possible outcome but the probability of this occurance would be very unlikely. My point is that there is no random chance. Only that which is unknown or cannot be measured. If you roll a 6 sided dice there is no random chance that it will show up with seven dots on it. Yes our universe is precise we are just incapable of properly measuring it.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 17:07   #103
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Are you talking about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which states, more or less, that the more you know about one aspect of a subatomic particle, the less you can know about the other? That is quite a long way off from Random Chance.

If Random Chance were possible then it would be possible for a woman to become pregnant and have a child simply by looking at a man. Certainly it would be a possible outcome but the probability of this occurance would be very unlikely. My point is that there is no random chance. Only that which is unknown or cannot be measured. If you roll a 6 sided dice there is no random chance that it will show up with seven dots on it. Yes our universe is precise we are just incapable of properly measuring it.
Hoho.

Your argument is "If anything is random, EVERYTHING IS!"? That's not even crap, it's just silly.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 16 Nov 2006 at 20:33.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 17:26   #104
Travler
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
If every particle affects eachother without random factor according to god's masterplan
then theirs actually no such thing as free will amirite? Only the illusion of free will
This debate is as old as Lao Tzu. Basically you determine the choices you make but when you look back upon your life you will see that you either would not have chosen a different path or could not have chosen differently due to the circumstances at the time.

It really depends how you want to look at it. If you want to think that Free Will is an illusion then it will be. If you want to think you have a chosen destiny you will. If you think life is what you make it, it will be.

John 8:32

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 17:31   #105
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Hahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahh ahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahah ahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahah aahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahh ahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahah ahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahah aahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahh ahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahah ahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahah aahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahh ahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahah ahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahah aahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahh ahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahah ahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahah aahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaahhahahahahaa

Your argument is "If anything is random, EVERYTHING IS!"? That's not even crap, it's just silly.
Are you dismissing the Random Chance that you will suddenly convert to Christianity? It's still within the realm of possibility and by looking at this last post the odds just got better.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 18:25   #106
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
If Random Chance were possible then it would be possible for a woman to become pregnant and have a child simply by looking at a man.
Hello the Virgin Mary
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 19:32   #107
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
Hello the Virgin Mary
That's a waste if you tell me, getting knocked up by God and not even getting any out of it.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 19:41   #108
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Wakey....welcome to the world of grey. God's word is absolute and few believers will say that it is not. The Bible is constantly being reviewed and translated to find ALL the meanings and messages contained. It's not so much a different interpretation as more of a discovery of previously overlooked significance.
I hate to break it to you. But God did NOT write the Bible. The Bible was not sent to earth by mail. It isn't divine.

It was written by humans, and as such is erroneous - not exact or absolute.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 20:04   #109
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Re: Are you ready?

I'm not too sure what's going on in this thread anymore so can someone just drop me a line when we're burning all the scientists please.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 20:57   #110
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Are you dismissing the Random Chance that you will suddenly convert to Christianity? It's still within the realm of possibility and by looking at this last post the odds just got better.
I forgot to quote the post about Bell test experiments and local realism. Please refer to that.
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Unread 13 Nov 2006, 00:18   #111
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Are you talking about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which states, more or less, that the more you know about one aspect of a subatomic particle, the less you can know about the other? That is quite a long way off from Random Chance.

If Random Chance were possible then it would be possible for a woman to become pregnant and have a child simply by looking at a man. Certainly it would be a possible outcome but the probability of this occurance would be very unlikely. My point is that there is no random chance. Only that which is unknown or cannot be measured. If you roll a 6 sided dice there is no random chance that it will show up with seven dots on it. Yes our universe is precise we are just incapable of properly measuring it.
NO





I am not talking about Heisenberg.

I am talking about quantum phenomena. Let explain in very simple terms.

I have a shiny QUANTUM penny. I conceal in it my QUANTUM hands and hold it out in front out you. I say 'Which hand is my shiny QUANTUM penny in, Travler?' And you make a guess.

Now, until I actually open up my QUANTUM hands and show you where the QUANTUM penny is, it is simult- sorry, at the same time, in one QUANTUM hand and the other QUANTUM hand. It exists in a bizarre 'neither here nor there' state until I open my QUANTUM hands. At that point, you measure the state of the penny in the left-hand/right-hand basis and resolve the penny's state vector into an eigenstate. You will find it with 50% probability in the left hand and 50% probablilty in the right hand. The penny will assume one of these states with equal probability - ie this is pure chance we're talking about.

Sorry, couldn't keep up the 'simple' thing all the way through. If you think it may have been in my left hand all along, I refer you to Jakikiriwiri's post on the Bell Inequality.
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Unread 13 Nov 2006, 00:21   #112
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Are you dismissing the Random Chance that you will suddenly convert to Christianity? It's still within the realm of possibility and by looking at this last post the odds just got better.
I think Jakiri exists in a non-Christian eigenstate. Unless there's some decoherence in the system, eg he gets hit over the head with a pool table, he will remain in that state as long as you keep measuring in the god/no-god basis.
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Unread 13 Nov 2006, 15:56   #113
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I still want to know what I am advertising. What product am I trying to sell. Belief? You ready to put a price on that?
What are you advertising, a cult perhaps. After all what else is pretty much every organised religion. They scare people into following them, brainwash them so as to remove their ability to be critical and free willed and all that for money and power.
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Unread 13 Nov 2006, 16:58   #114
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.
I notice that it does not specifically say two people of opposite genders, thus implying they might be gay. And since we all know what the Bible says about 'lying together' if unmarried, I take this as a biblical endorsement for gay marriage.

Quote:
I just saw this video and I must say it kinda shocked me. I know what its about but I think this is the best representation I have seen so far.
I'm sorry, thats the best representation of the Rapture you have seen so far? Have you seen a LOT of representations of the Rapture upon which you base your study?

And isn't that kindof like saying Terminator 2 is the best Representation of super-intelligent robats taking over the world and launching a nuclear war on humanity you have seen so far? I mean, it might br true, but thats not saying much...


And... I'm sorry, did you just say you don't believe in random chance? Seriously? Random chance isn't like santa Claus, to be believed or disbelieved at your whim. Thats like not believing in gravity. Trust me, regardless of what you think about it, Gravity believes in you.

Jump.

Do it now.

Did you come back?

Gravity.

Shall we make you go through a smilarily pedantic and grade-3 level proof to demonstrate random chance?
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Unread 13 Nov 2006, 19:45   #115
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I am talking about quantum phenomena. Let explain in very simple terms.

I have a shiny QUANTUM penny. I conceal in it my QUANTUM hands and hold it out in front out you. I say 'Which hand is my shiny QUANTUM penny in, Travler?' And you make a guess.

Now, until I actually open up my QUANTUM hands and show you where the QUANTUM penny is, it is simult- sorry, at the same time, in one QUANTUM hand and the other QUANTUM hand. It exists in a bizarre 'neither here nor there' state until I open my QUANTUM hands. At that point, you measure the state of the penny in the left-hand/right-hand basis and resolve the penny's state vector into an eigenstate. You will find it with 50% probability in the left hand and 50% probablilty in the right hand. The penny will assume one of these states with equal probability - ie this is pure chance we're talking about.
.
This is one particular (dubious) interpretation of the formalism, there are many others.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 00:07   #116
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Re: Are you ready?

Come on then, let's hear them.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 01:54   #117
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Come on then, let's hear them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpr...ntum_mechanics, specifically the ensemble interpretation which strikes me as the most honest interpretation of quantum mechanics (although I cant find a decent explanation of it online at the moment and I've forgot the name of the ace book I was reading which covered it in detail but I'll look in the library tomorrow), and Bohmian mechanics which is a fully realist, deterministic interpretation.


edit: The ensemble interpretation would say that your attempt to use quantum mechanics to calculate the location of your quantum penny is fundamentally flawed because quantum mechanics says nothing about individual systems and only gives predictions for the relative frequency of outcomes which would be observed if you started with a sufficiently large ensemble of systems in identical initial states, whereas the Bohm interpretation would say that your penny was always in one hand anyway (although quantum mechanics could only give you a probabilistic prediction for which one it was).

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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 06:59   #118
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
[url]
edit: The ensemble interpretation would say that your attempt to use quantum mechanics to calculate the location of your quantum penny is fundamentally flawed because quantum mechanics says nothing about individual systems and only gives predictions for the relative frequency of outcomes which would be observed if you started with a sufficiently large ensemble of systems in identical initial states, whereas the Bohm interpretation would say that your penny was always in one hand anyway (although quantum mechanics could only give you a probabilistic prediction for which one it was).
This is more inline with what I was thinking quantum mechanics was. Basically the penny is never in an Eigenstate but in one hand or the other.

The description I got was that it was impossible to measure where an electron in an atom was because by attemping to view the electron by shooting it with a light photon you would move the electron and thus it's position would be changed.

Jennifer,
Probability is not random chance. There is no random chance a hydrogen atom will suddenly become a uranium atom.

A simple example would be a random encounter with a stranger at a masquerade ball. Everyone is wearing a mask. We use the word random because we don't know who is behind the mask. If we were able to know who was behind the mask then the encounter would not be random.

Since we cannot measure everything without altering the smaller components we call it random but in reality it is unknown or unmeasurable by current scientific methods. Imagine trying to ride a bicycle in one of those inflatible sumo wrestler suits and it's easy to see why we are limited in our precision at this time.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 07:11   #119
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Re: Are you ready?

make it stop
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 09:20   #120
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm not too sure what's going on in this thread anymore so can someone just drop me a line when we're burning all the scientists please.

Essentially its the age old argument of frequencist vs bayesian. Since i think frequencists are weirdos who live in dark holes id tend to agree with traveler that there is no such thing as random (in the literal sense), rather just a lack of information.

That said even if you work out all the governing equations of a system you're still stuffed by deterministic chaos, which hinders a complete appreciation of whats going on.

Its all become a bit arse over tit because on top of all this frequencist v bayesian debating, the 'nature of the universe' has entered the fray, ie traveler is (as far as i can tell) bringing in the strong anthropic principle 'the universe is precise, god didn't gamble with eternity' etc.

Whilst i broadly agree with his take on probability applying those arguments across the multiverse in some vague notion is confusing and odd.



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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 09:31   #121
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
This is more inline with what I was thinking quantum mechanics was. Basically the penny is never in an Eigenstate but in one hand or the other.
Well its not quite as simple as that. There are certain properties that any interpretation has to satisfy in order to be consistent with the mathematical formalism, and this in practice means that most common sense interpretations are ruled out from the start. The most fundamental aspect of quantum physics is that you cant make definite predictions about the behavior of systems except in some special cases - all you can get are statistical predictions about the probability of events happening. We can start with 2 systems that are, as far as we know, in an identical state to each other and yet they can both act in different ways. The 'common sense' explanation for this is that quantum physics is somehow incomplete - theres something that we dont know lurking out of sight that is causing system X to behave in one way, and identical-system-Y to behave in another. However this sort of naive approach is pretty much ruled out by the Bell Inequality - you cant just assume that the apparent randomness is caused by something we dont know, otherwise the theory ceases to give accurate predictions. Its impossible to understate the importance of this result - you cannot just take quantum physics as it stands and assume that particles actually do have positions etc that we just arent aware of, because the whole thing breaks if you try.

So, every interpretation needs to explain why we can only get statistical predictions, and just saying 'well, we just dont know everything' is mathematically forbidden. As a result, every realist interpretation (ie every interpretation which wishes to hold that quantum physics somehow gives us a picture of reality rather than just being a detached mathematical formalism we use to grind out results) is necessarily going to be counter-initutive in some sense. Basically, quantum physics is always going to be weird, but you get some leeway in choosing which specific type of weirdness you want.

The interpretation of QM that was most popular during the 20th century was the Copenhagen interpretation. This was heavily influenced by the climate of academic positivism that existed around the time quantum physics was being developed, and is firmly based on the "if we cant measure it then its literally meaningless to talk about it" idea. Since quantum physics only gives us probabilistic predictions, theres no justification at all for holding that theres a deterministic underlying reality - we cant measure it, so speech about it is just incoherent babble. SInce the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle prevents us from knowing both the position and the speed of a particle at once, its meaningless to suppose that they have both a position and speed at all times. And so on. The picture given by Jennifer above is one popular interpretation of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics (there are other interpretations of this interpretation, noone said this wasnt confusing) which is sliightly dubious, since talking about a particle existing in more than one place at the same time (or existing as a wave function) does go significantly beyond the experimental data and violate positivism, so a strict Copenhagenist would probably just say that its meaningless to ask where the particle is until we measure it and find out. There are also technical problems related to locality which spring up when you try to say that the wave function is real, which I dont know the details about offhand, so will merrily skip over.

Although Copenhagenism gives a consistent interpreation of quantum mechanics which fits the maths, it does have problems (as do pretty much all interpretations). One of the major problems is that it runs into serious difficult when it tries to talk about what actually happens when we measure individual particles or systems. According to the strict mathematics of the Copenhagen interpretation, we shouldnt even be able to make measurements in the first place. Basically, the Copenhagen interpretation holds that quantum systems exist in a superposition of quantum states, and that measurement collapses this superposition and forces the wave function to collapse into a single state. But there isnt actually any mathematical reason why this collapse should happen in the first place - if you treat your measuring instrument as being a quantum system in itself (which you should be able to do since its made out of particles too) and use quantum mechanics to work out what happens when the quantum particles in the measuring instrument interact with the particles in the thing youre trying to measure, you end up with a situation where the measuring device becomes tangled up with the original wavefunction and it gets spread out into a superposition too. So in other words, when you look at the display of your detector it should be in a superposition of states - it should say '1' and '2' and '3' and '4' and '9' at the same time. Obviously it doesnt - in practice you get a single measurement, and there is no theoretical explanation for this. The standard Copenhagen way to get round this problem is to take a strong dualist view where you have 'the quantum world' which follows one set of rules, and 'the classical world' which follows another (and a Correspondence Principle which tells you that quantum systems should become classical 'at some suitably-large-but-undefined' point). So the reason why your measuring instrument doesnt enter into the superposition is because its a 'classical' object which doesnt obey quantum rules. Why cant you treat it as being a lot of individual particlces and apply quantum physics to it? Well you just cant - it's not allowed. This sort of militant dualism has the benefit of avoiding the problem, but its about as arbitrary as its possible to get and doesnt really explain anything. And this the basis of the Measurment Problem in QM.

Ensemble interpretations are essentially an attempt to take the Copenhagen interpretation to its logical conclusion by stripping out every last vestige of metaphysics. With this, its held that quantum physics doesnt actually say anything whatsoever about individual systems - it just makes statements about what happens to large groups of identical systems. Rather than saying "this particle has a 50% chance of moving up and a 50% chance of moving down", it says "if you have 1000 identical particles in this state then 500 will move up and 500 will move down". Talk about what happens to a single particle is held to be outside the domain of quantum theory, and no attempt is made to explain why different identical particles are behaving in different ways. A good example of the difference in approach here is the way that Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is formulated. In popular interpretation of quantum physics this will be stated as something like "you cannnot measure the position and the speed of a particle at the same time" . In the ensemble interpretation this would be formulated differently because any talk aobut individual particles is forbidden Instead youd state the HUP as something like "If you take a large number of identically prepared quantum particles and measure the speed of half of them and the position of the other half, then the uncertainty in your combined measurements will be at least <whatever>". No statements are made about individual particles or systems, and no explanation is given for why this phenomenon is observed. You dont need to talk about particles being in multiple places at the same time because you arent ever talking about individual particles. This is an example of an anti-realist interpretation - no attempt is made to give an explanation of why these phenomena are occuring or what they actually 'mean' - its just the simplest possible way of stating what is going on mathematically without making any metaphysical commitments. Its something of a copout and not really an 'explanation' in any meaningful sense of the word, but it has the virtue of being honest and not going beyond the observed data.

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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 09:34   #122
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Re: Are you ready?

(continued lol)


Since the copout accusation is probably somewhat justified, other physicists have tried to produce interpretations which do actually talk about individual systems/particles and do attempt to explain whats going on. However the problems mentioned above prevent an easy ways of doing this, so all of the proposed ideas have some highly counterintuitive aspects. One of the more famous of these is Bohmian mechanics, which is both realist (it attempts to describe reality rather than just being a magical machine for predicting things) and deterministic. 'Deterministic' here essentially means that particles do actually exist in one place at all times and do follow definite trajectories, even though we dont (and cant) know what these are. Since common sense interpretations have already been ruled out, this theory is going to have some weird features and the most obvious one is its non-locality. To simplifty, non-locality essentially means that events that happen at points in spacetime are somehow connected to each other in an unknown-yet-mysterious way. If I take 2 particles and 'do something' to them which links them together in a certain way (details dont matter) and then seperate them so that they are 10 million billion miles apart, then interacting with one of the particles causes a change to immediately occur in the second . Here 'immediate' literally means 'immediate' - ie instantaneously (or at least superluminally, I'm not 100% sure about this) as opposed to 'very very fast'. There are other quirks and oddities involved in Bohmian Mechanics, not the least of which is the quantum potential which pervades the whole universe and causes this non-locality, so as a whole it's probably still as weird as standard quantum theory, its just a different type of weirdness and one which some people find more preferable.

There are other various other interpretations which have been proposed to deal with the problems of QM, including many worlds which you'll undoubtably find a plethora of references to in your nearest new age bookstore.

Quote:
Probability is not random chance. There is no random chance a hydrogen atom will suddenly become a uranium atom.

A simple example would be a random encounter with a stranger at a masquerade ball. Everyone is wearing a mask. We use the word random because we don't know who is behind the mask. If we were able to know who was behind the mask then the encounter would not be random.
This is to do with how you interpret statements of probability - ie what does it actually mean to say that an event has an X% chance of happening? The statement you give about the masked stranger would be how a Bayesian interprets probability - namely by saying that statements of probability are ultimately statements about our degrees of belief/knowledge. To say that something has an x% of happening just means that, given our current state of knowledge, you believe that it has an x% chance of happening (this doesnt have to be handwavy and subjective, there are mathematical tools that you use to calculate how your degree of belief changes as new evidence arises, and this sort of thing forms the basis of decision theory and some artificial intelligence). However the interpretation of probability that is generally used in quantum physics is different from this - QM is generally based around a frequentist approach which defines probability in terms of what will happen when you select events from a sample space an arbitrarily large number of times (eg saying that a coin has a 50% chance of landing as heads means that if you toss

One of the classic arguments between Bayesians and Frequentists is what it means to talk about the probability of a single event happening (eg 'what is the probability of my cat dying?"). This sort of thing is easy for Bayesians - they just say that talking about the probability of your cat denying is a statement about your degree of belief regarding the cat's life . A strict frequentist on the other hand would hold that this sort of talk is meaningless - in order to decide the probability of your cat dying youd need to have 1000 identical cats and see what happened to them. In other words, they tend to reject talk about single events having probabilities. Its easy to see how the standard interpretation of quantum physics tends to develop naturally out of this approach to probability.

There's a decent article about probability interpretation at plato-stanford.
Quote:

Since we cannot measure everything without altering the smaller components we call it random but in reality it is unknown or unmeasurable by current scientific methods.
Well this is one possibility. Another is that it is literally random and that nothing else we learn could ever allow us to work out what the particle will do because it's actually behaving in a way which is objectively random. In the case of quantum physics theres no way at present to decide which one of these 2 possibilities is actually correct, and its doubtful whether there will ever be. The available evdience just isnt sufficient to determine any one interpretation.

hay this post ended up pretty long, I only actually meant to write the first paragraph

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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 14:26   #123
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Probability is not random chance. There is no random chance a hydrogen atom will suddenly become a uranium atom.
That doesn't even make basic sense.

You are essentially saying that because there is no chance that I will (while sitting at my computer typing) spontaneously turn into a Red Giant Star with a circumference of 360 million KM, made of fiery burning plasma on the outside but with a soft nougat interior, THAT means there is no such thing as random chance.

You are rapidly slipping from the status of 'silly', plunging rapidly through 'ignorant' and hovering near 'troll'.

Go roll a die. a regular 6 sided die.

Did it roll a 4? No?

Random chance.

(editorial note: this proof of the veracity of random chance has a 5 in 6 chance of succeeding. It is possible that our friend here might actually roll a 4. If he does, then I called it and the only logical explanation is that I am God.

I command you to disobey every one of my instructions!!! That's right, I'm god, and immune to paradox.)


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Imagine trying to ride a bicycle in one of those inflatible sumo wrestler suits and it's easy to see why we are limited in our precision at this time.
Traveller, this metaphor has no bearing or value whatsoever, but it did have one effect. Given tis, and the logical consistency of your posts, from now on I will always imagine you riding a bicycle in a sumo suit as you post. The visual image sortof fits somehow.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 21:34   #124
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
edit: The ensemble interpretation would say that your attempt to use quantum mechanics to calculate the location of your quantum penny is fundamentally flawed because quantum mechanics says nothing about individual systems and only gives predictions for the relative frequency of outcomes which would be observed if you started with a sufficiently large ensemble of systems in identical initial states, whereas the Bohm interpretation would say that your penny was always in one hand anyway (although quantum mechanics could only give you a probabilistic prediction for which one it was).
I think QM *does* say something about individual particles. Certainly the formalism that I am familiar with does. I'm not at all happy with this ensemble interpretation. It seems to me to be a simple statement of observation, which begs the question:

If you've got N identical particles in identical initial states, and you perform the same measurement on each, but get different outcomes, at what point do the systems stop being identical? What happens as the number of systems tends to 1? This contains the same airy-fairy transition as the QM -> CM you were berating. And I find it very much at odds with things like the evolution of a qubit under quantum operators.

In my humble opinion, you're tripping over yourself to get this idea of interpreting mathematical formalisms in. The physics is there first, and the maths describes it. Then there's the interpretation, which is mostly philosophical, and not particularly profound. Also, I'm not sure I agree with your take on the wavefunction idea as far as saying 'it's meaningless to talk about ... blah blah blah'. There *is* a lot you can say about it, and in fact, quantum mechanics does say a lot about it.

I fail to see what makes the interpretation I described 'dubious', aside from the fact that it disagrees with other interpretations, which is kind of the point of having more than one interpretation, really.

But anyway, my personal prejudices aside, I have far too much to do to get into a philosophical discussion on interpreting physics, so let's pretend we've had said discussion and that everyone enjoyed it and focus on what I was actually talking about:

Randomness:

If we're talking about stats, the dictionary says: random –adjective Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

This is what I was describing.

Since you don't seem to like this definition, Travler, let's redefine:

random: –adjective Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which an elephant turns into a shoe horn.

You're quite right, Travler, random chance does not exist.

Now let me redefine: probabilistic –adjective Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

Now, by these definitions, what you were actually talking about was not random chance but probabilistic chance.

This clearly does exist.

If you really believe that EVERYTHING is predetermined, there is no such thing as free will, you can't sin and neither can I, and your entire religion goes out the window anyway.

Thank you for your time, I am extremely busy and important and I absolutely must sign off now.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 22:08   #125
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Re: Are you ready?

You've pasted the same definition twice.
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 07:10   #126
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
(continued lol)

hay this post ended up pretty long, I only actually meant to write the first paragraph
I did not repast all of it but I have to say this was a very good description and it helped me to understand at least one function of a waveform/particle.

Basically my understanding goes like this:

Light is both a particle and a wave. Light travels around 670,616,629.384 miles per hour in a vacuum.

Now correct me if I am wrong but I cannot fathom a light particle being able to retain enough heat from the sun to travel from the sun to the earth and still be able to heat up the earth. I mean the fact that it is traveling in a vacuum would remove alot of heat energy and the mass of a light particle would not sufficiently hold the heat over such a long distance at such a high speed in a vacuum. Without QM any other particle would arrive at earth cold and only be heated by friction while penetrating the earth's atmosphere. A light particle is so small it would not even create enough friction to heat up and at best would only be deflected by objects(invisible to the naked eye) it came into contact with.

But we know that light is also a wave. This is where one of the varients of QM comes into play. I forget the name but one of them stated a particle could be in one place and the next moment be in another place and yet be in both places at the same time. Now if I think of a wave as a really skinny fishing cord tied to my light particle then the light streaming from the sun is actually still attached to the sun though the wave. Now the heat coming through the wave would be reduced but it certainly makes the heat of the midday sun understandable if you consider that the actual heat energy of the light particle is being transmitted by the wave.

Now this is not to say that the particle part of the light is not hot but it's plugged into the sun by the wave and we all know what happens to electricity when you run it through a long skinny cord.

Now if this simpletons explaination needs some tweaking please feel free but this is the way I am understanding how certain characteristics of QM are working.
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god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 07:49   #127
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I did not repast all of it but I have to say this was a very good description and it helped me to understand at least one function of a waveform/particle.

Basically my understanding goes like this:

Light is both a particle and a wave. Light travels around 670,616,629.384 miles per hour in a vacuum.
Photons, yes. Light is made up of lots of these photons. It would be better to think of a photon as having the characteristics of both a wave and a particle rather then being both; since iirc the jury is out on which it is, if either.
It can be demonstrated through experiment that it behaves accordingly to both patterns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Now correct me if I am wrong but I cannot fathom a light particle being able to retain enough heat from the sun to travel from the sun to the earth and still be able to heat up the earth. I mean the fact that it is traveling in a vacuum would remove alot of heat energy and the mass of a light particle would not sufficiently hold the heat over such a long distance at such a high speed in a vacuum.
From what i understand, heat is transmitted by the sun in the form of Infra-red radiation. This is part of the electromagnetic spectrum - just like visible light is. This radiation travels to the earth in the form of photons where it heats up the earth by virtue of its characteristics. The photons dont *carry* heat, they *are* heat. Since space is a vacuum there is nothing for these photons to heat up until they hit the earth, which is why it doesnt arrive at the earth 'cold'

It gets all complicated when you consider the wave particle duality though, but that is the basics from what i understand. Granted i may not be 100% correct but still
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 07:56   #128
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
But we know that light is also a wave. This is where one of the varients of QM comes into play. I forget the name but one of them stated a particle could be in one place and the next moment be in another place and yet be in both places at the same time. Now if I think of a wave as a really skinny fishing cord tied to my light particle then the light streaming from the sun is actually still attached to the sun though the wave. Now the heat coming through the wave would be reduced but it certainly makes the heat of the midday sun understandable if you consider that the actual heat energy of the light particle is being transmitted by the wave.
I don't think I can bring myself to discuss QM with someone who's unaware of the fact that radiation propagates through a vacuum.
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 10:12   #129
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Re: Are you ready?

Some of the things in this post are imprecise expressions of the physics, because

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Light is both a particle and a wave.
Everything is both a particle and a wave!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Now correct me if I am wrong but I cannot fathom a light particle being able to retain enough heat from the sun to travel from the sun to the earth and still be able to heat up the earth.
Light doesn't retain heat in that way. Light doesn't retain heat. Light is a form of energy, which may or may not be adsorbed by a molecule or something else depending on the wavelength of the light (which is how microwave ovens work - the microwaves are of a frequency which causes increased vibrations in water molecules, which heats up the food) which can be expressed as a gain of heat.

Conduction and radiation are fairly analagous to sound and light in space (indeed, they're the same thing when you're talking about radiation) - sound and conduction can't happen in space, but radiation travels better because there's less in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I mean the fact that it is traveling in a vacuum would remove alot of heat energy... without QM
Light actually travels better in space than it does on earth, because less energy can be lost out of the whole by parts of the group of waves being adsorbed by things along the way. You can model light intensity very straightforwardly in classical mechanics by considering that the surface area is inversely proportional to the intensity and proportional to the square of the radius - a simple inverse square law, like Newtownian gravity or electrical fields in classical electrostatics.

You also seem to be of the opinion that the wave interpretation of light is the result of QM, whereas, whilst the particle interpretation is the classic one. What is more accurate is that light was argued, from Newton and Huygens, to be either a particle or a wave, although at the start of the 20th century the wave interpretation was very much in vogue due to diffraction (in the double slit experiment, for example) amongst other things.

Einstein's explanation of the photoelectric effect in 1905 was the thing which shifted the balance to an explanation grounded in duality, and it should be noted that this is entirely indenpendent of QM, although this and De Broglie's interpretation in the 20's were both significant factors in its development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
But we know that light is also a wave. This is where one of the varients of QM comes into play. I forget the name but one of them stated a particle could be in one place and the next moment be in another place and yet be in both places at the same time.
You're probably thinking of the concept of quantum uncertainty. It is not a property of waves, and doesn't really mean what you state here; the concept of a probability density function is relevent. Read Jennifer's post above and look for something on the Schroedinger equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Now if I think of a wave as a really skinny fishing cord tied to my light particle then the light streaming from the sun is actually still attached to the sun though the wave.
Incorrect interpretation of what light being a wave represents. Look up "Photons" or "Wave Packets".
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 15:49   #130
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Re: Are you ready?

What Jakiri said, also If youre actually interested in QM then I'd highly recommend this as a great fairly-non-mathematical, historicist-conscious overview; there's only so much you can pick up from wikipedia and internet forums.

Last edited by Nodrog; 24 Nov 2006 at 15:54.
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 16:45   #131
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
What Jakiri said,
yeah, except for the horrible misuse of the word 'adsorb'.

and why all the hate for the logical positivists? it seems like the other 99% of the time, people have nothing but disdain for any 'untestable hypothesis'-related discussion, but whenever QM comes up holding the Right Answer is of the utmost importance.

anyway.

ps: you left me hanging with your "(eg saying that a coin has a 50% chance of landing as heads means that if you toss "

unfinished sentence in one of your posts. finish pls?
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 20:02   #132
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Now if I think of a wave as a really skinny fishing cord tied to my light particle then the light streaming from the sun is actually still attached to the sun though the wave. Now the heat coming through the wave would be reduced but it certainly makes the heat of the midday sun understandable if you consider that the actual heat energy of the light particle is being transmitted by the wave.
Please, for the sake of humanity, don't try to explain science anymore. Just go back to explaining things in the context of 'God makes the sun shine.' At least you won't be giving misinformation about actual scientific facts and theories, and corrupting people by making them think that light is like a fishing cord.
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Unread 25 Nov 2006, 00:48   #133
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Re: Are you ready?

Calling you out on this one, you troll.

No one is THAT stupid.

I'm signing off here.
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