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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 10:39   #1
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Well done Bush

Quote:
Pyongyang said there was no point in the talks since the US had termed North Korea an "outpost of tyranny".

The North Korean statement also repeated its assertion to have built nuclear weapons for self-defence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4252481.stm

Well, it looks like NK have admitted having Nuclear Weapons, and by calling them "evil" and an "outpost of tyranny" the US seem to have managed to stop talks designed to bring them into check.

So, to those who think invading Iraq made the world safer - Where are the plans to invade North Korea?
To everyone else - What do you think this will mean to world 'Peace'?
and What (if anything) can/should be done about it?
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 10:46   #2
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Re: Well done Bush

North Korea is different from Iraq because Iraq didn't have China on it's border. Besides, the dynamics of Middle Eastern politics are very different from East Asia.

I'm not that worried about North Korea have nukes (although obviously if no country had them, and it'd be better if those countries that did weren't ruled by semi-crackpot rulers). The only countries North Korea could realistically use nukes again would be South Korea or Japan. Nuking Japan would have absolutley no point whatsoever (barring some kind of dramatic Japanese military expansion / empire building mk II which strikes me as utterly unlikely).

I also doubt (although I've got very little to back this up) that North Korea would use nukes against their brothers in the south. While relations between the two government are very poor they are ultimately the same nation (in fact I think there's a "One People, One Country" slogan that's oft-repeated) and I can't see many people urging to use nukes in what would in some senses be a civil war.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 10:51   #3
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Re: Well done Bush

Bring in Team America!
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 11:33   #4
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
Bring in Team America!
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 11:35   #5
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Re: Well done Bush

some people appear to allow their hatred of america to pursuade them that they must disagree with whatever america says.

i have no doubt that if america said the world was round there would be posts here insisting it was flat.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 11:59   #6
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Re: Well done Bush

this does not lead any rational mind to say:

"The whole axis of evil thing is a complete joke. The prospect that North Korea is any threat to global security is approximate to Granada being a threat to the United States. "
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:08   #7
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
this does not lead any rational mind to say:

"The whole axis of evil thing is a complete joke. The prospect that North Korea is any threat to global security is approximate to Granada being a threat to the United States. "
Perhaps it does. Perhaps he's taking into account that NK isn't able to toss a nuke further than their neighbors garden. So for most of us it's a far-from-our-bed-show. Even for the US.
Although I admit I'd be quite unhappy if they tossed a nuke into Japan. It'd ruin my vacation plans considerably.
Plus, why would the US care if NK can't even hit them. Unless they have some special interest in that region. Bring out the conspiracy theories!
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:12   #8
Yahwe
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Re: Well done Bush

and islamic fundamentalists working out of a incredibly poor country like afghanistan could never touch the US.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:18   #9
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Re: Well done Bush

Does NK or significant people within it have a stated objective to destroy or wage war with the united states? NK is a horrible country, i hope it achieves demoracy and is re-united with the south, but on a global threat level* i don't see why its more of a danger to me than turkmenistan.

*taking gobal threat to be physical harm not economic rival etc
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:20   #10
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Re: Well done Bush

we fought a war against NK, when they think back they don't look upon that with fond recolections.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:25   #11
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Re: Well done Bush

Yeah but that was decades ago, they may not like us but since the war 'ended' they haven't made any attempts to have an away rematch. Besides saying they're annoyed with us because we had a war with them, so lets be aggressive now doesn't make a lot of sense. Im not a fan of NK and i don't think the US is the great satan, i just think that if left in peace they won't attack me.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:30   #12
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Re: Well done Bush

my point is that blaming the US for NK's political stance, or blindly claiming that NK is not a threat and that America is simply making it all up are both utterly absurd.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:37   #13
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Undeniable proof

THAT COMMUNISM WORKS DAMMIT

Quote:
North Korea says it has built nuclear weapons to protect itself against a US attack and has pulled out of multilateral talks aimed at stopping its atomic programs.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Nor...890337104.html
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:38   #14
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Re: Undeniable proof

It's time to start enjoying life before the impending Nuclear war then.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:48   #15
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Re: Undeniable proof

There are already a couple threads about this issue, but I'll choose this one to comment in.

What I find more ironic is that while the US are attempting to disarm everyone else they've got no shortage of nuclear weapons. I couldn't blame any country for wanting to protect their own and being nervous of any neighbour with exclusive nuclear ability.

To be honest I'm sick of seeing America as a superpower, they've gotten used to it being the way of things it's made them arogant (not all please don't take this as a slant against Americans).

The only way I see total disarment of nuclear weapons from all countries is if we find a way to negate their effects or somehow make them useless (beyond the existing if you nuke me I'll nuke you and we'll all be dead).
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:51   #16
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Re: Well done Bush

1) there is a history of NK using flimsy pretexts to start wars too.
2) the korean war was UN sanctioned and involved many many nations. it succeeded in protecting south korea from the north.
3) that doesn't make them german. if a north korean traveled with a nuclear weapon by boat from NK to an alusian island and then moved on to nuke california we would hardly call it an inuit attack. bin laden had not been funded by the US for years.

you're biggotry is starting to make you froth at the mouth.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 12:59   #17
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
1) there is a history of NK using flimsy pretexts to start wars too.
That makes it OK for the US to do it too I guess. No?
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:05   #18
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Re: Well done Bush

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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:13   #19
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Re: Well done Bush

1) its not a competition, its a question about whether NK is a threat or not.
2) you don't seem to know much about south korea, and of course UN sanction (note not a plural) justifies international military action. the point was it was not unilateral american action. the korean war is the only truly valid war of the last century.
3) i said islamic fundamentalists working out of afganistan. you said NK was not a threat because it didn't have the capacity to launch ICBMs i demonstrated how your proposition was silly.


4) your posts. your over reaction whenever anyone seems to be agreeing with america. your inability to read properly what i post which seems to be because of your blind hatred of america.
it is my proposition that an irrational hatred of a group or country is biggotry.

PS all your typos might indicate a certain over excitement in your replies.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:13   #20
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr0733
Your
quite.

i apologise.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:15   #21
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
your blind hatred of america.
He does not hate America, he has shook Dubya's hand.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:15   #22
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Re: Well done Bush

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Dante Hicks
The only countries North Korea could realistically use nukes again would be South Korea or Japan. Nuking Japan would have absolutley no point whatsoever (barring some kind of dramatic Japanese military expansion / empire building mk II which strikes me as utterly unlikely).
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Toccata & Fugue
The prospect that North Korea is any threat to global security is approximate to Granada being a threat to the United States.
I dont think people really understand just how much of a global threat NK or indeed Saddam Hussain's Iraq could be, they seem to think (wrongly) that one countries threat to another only extends as far as their missiles will reach.

This is not the case.

The fact that our world is now a far more accessible place thanks to planes, trains and automobiles and that western countries operate relatively free movement of people into and out of their borders, means that if a country like NK had nukes and the desire to cause damage to say the United States, then it would be significantly easier for such technology to get into the wrong hands (with the help of a sponsor state like NK) and cause terror/destruction.

9/11 already showed us that these things are possible. Imagine each of those planes had been equipped with nuclear technology/uranium gained by a small sponsor state and optimised for the task by the smaller terrorist group carrying out the attack. Can you honestly sit back and tell me the state responsible for handing over the nuclear process/uranium wasnt a global threat in the first place?

The desire to harm can be a far more damaging global threat than any missile ever could be.

Last edited by CrashTester; 10 Feb 2005 at 15:29.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:29   #23
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Re: Well done Bush

I believe that the reason that some countries are worried by NK's aquiring of nukes is because they are in also in the process of developing ICBM capable of hitting the US west coast. Not to mention the fact that the US does have a fair few forces deployed in the area to defend its allies and protect its interests, they probably don't want to see Tokyo and Okinawa reduced to glowing glass


As for NK kicking the US back to south Korea, that was the Chinese PLA and they took massive losses doing so, took Seoul and were then pushed back to the 38th parallel where the DMZ is now situated I believe.

I think the Bush administration was foolish/short sighted to give NK such a handy stick to hit them with and withdraw from talks AND justify (if only to themselves) building yet more nukes. I dont imagine that China is currently very happy with anyone involve din this situation right now "Yes please keep poking the unstable nuclear power on our borders with a stick,we dont mind after all we can afford to lose 100 milion people in a nuclear firestorm"



/edit Wasn't Cuba allowing the Soviet Union to deploy nuclear missiles and bombers on their soil and thus presenting a real threat to the US??? Yes that threat has passed and current sanctions are....dubious but I would not say that it never existed.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:30   #24
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Re: Well done Bush

If NK has nukes, then it seems pretty stupid to say that they aren't a threat. They could fire one into Tokyo and kill millions of people. There is also no way NK will give up their nukes, they are vital to their government staying in power.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 13:54   #25
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You believe wrongly. Interestingly can you name the last peopel to blow up Chinese cities with nuclear weapons.
I'm fairly sure China has never been nuked. But tell me, are you saying that NK can't hit say Japan with a missile?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
If the US has nukes, then it seems pretty stupid to say that they aren't a threat. They could fire one into Tokyo and kill millions of people. There is also no way NK will give up their nukes, they are vital to their government staying in power
When has the US ever been aggressive to anything but a rogue nation?
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:04   #26
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4252481.stm

Well, it looks like NK have admitted having Nuclear Weapons, and by calling them "evil" and an "outpost of tyranny" the US seem to have managed to stop talks designed to bring them into check.

So, to those who think invading Iraq made the world safer - Where are the plans to invade North Korea?
To everyone else - What do you think this will mean to world 'Peace'?
and What (if anything) can/should be done about it?
It is all good and well (and enjoyable) to criticise Bush but whatever mistakes he has made in his use of childish terms, it is not really his fault. NK were devloping nukes anyway, the rhetoric probably did little more than give NK an excuse to speed up it's nuclear weappns programs. NK couldn't possibly enter into negotiations just after they've gone nuclear, it would look 'weak' and would have been a totaly pointless exercise. I very much doubt they would use a nuclear weapon as they woud get their arses kicked. this refusal to talk about disarmament is just NK enjoying a brief moment of superiority over the US knowing that at least for the timme being they are relativly safe.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:08   #27
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Re: Well done Bush

You are not worth arguing this point with, you have your view and it will not change.

NK good US bad.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:12   #28
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Re: Well done Bush

You know i've never really understood why countries like North Korea don't use the argument "If you (usa and allies) dismantle your nuclear programmes so will we".

I mean i don't see any real argument the west could use against this. If they claimed otherwise it would signal automatically that they considered themselves to be superior over other nations (we already know this - but they will never admit it)

Of course if the west ever dismantled their nuclear weapons, making a nuclear free world - this would lead to even more global insecurity and war. The west would just launch a global conventional war which they would win with ease without the threat of nuclear MAD. In which case all countries would race again to develop nuclear weapons and we're back at zero.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:18   #29
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
1) America has made a nation that has not issued any threats to it a target, why have they done this? Is America interested in World Peace? Is America so worried about North Korea that it would rather attack Iraq (another country who had never threatened America) first?

2) UN resolutions don't justify military action, why would they? Especially in the 1950s. The idea that the war was truly valid is somewhat controversial.

3) NO Islamic fundamentalists working out of Afghanistan harmed the United States, your assertion is factually inaccurate. I never said anything about ICBMS genius. I said that North Korea was not a threat to the United States. The United States has a history of attacking nations which represent no threat to it, but at the time making a big fuss. Cuba was not a threat until the US started a terrorist campaign against it. Vietnam was never a threat, Iran was never a threat, Iraq was never a threat, Granada, Chile, Nicaragua, Panama, Laos, Cambodia. In fact what we can see is that if any country is a threat, they get constructive negotiation and engagement.
1) the proliferation of nuclear weapons must be stopped.
2) a UN resolution is the only way to make a war valid. i can think of none other.
3) they were trained in afghanistan and organised by commanders working from afghanistan. or perhaps you believe it was a spontaneous idea by a group of students?
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:24   #30
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
You know i've never really understood why countries like North Korea don't use the argument "If you (usa and allies) dismantle your nuclear programmes so will we".
there are treaties which talk about disarmament and the USA and Russia have dismantled some nuclear weapons but the problem is that they have so many as to make anything other than a massive decommisioning movement essentially defunct. there is also the issues of 'mini-nukes' with a much lower yeild which are being considered by the USA. this would blur the line between WMD and conventional forces and make the situation worse
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:26   #31
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
2) a UN resolution is the only way to make a war valid. i can think of none other.
A response to direct aggression I'd say was morally sound (i.e. if another country attacked you) irrespective of what the UN said.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:27   #32
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Re: Well done Bush

What exactly does a "valid war" mean. Valid by whom? What does it let involved countries do?
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:28   #33
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
A response to direct aggression I'd say was morally sound (i.e. if another country attacked you) irrespective of what the UN said.
but the war wouldn't be valid because the protagonists actions would be invalid.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:29   #34
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Stew
What exactly does a "valid war" mean. Valid by whom? What does it let involved countries do?
valid within terms of international law and immunity from unilateral or group punishment.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:29   #35
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
but the war wouldn't be valid because the protagonists actions would be invalid.
OK I have no idea what you mean by valid war. I apologise.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:32   #36
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
OK I have no idea what you mean by valid war. I apologise.
what about this then:

If a war can be a valid war, which surely must be possible, then the only way it could be made valid would be by consensus of the UN.

edit: for war perhaps we should use the term 'invasion of a sovereign state by another"
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:34   #37
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
what about this then:

If a war can be a valid war, which surely must be possible, then the only way it could be made valid would be by consensus of the UN.
I don't really agree with a consensus determining the validity of anything. Surely notions of right or wrong (or legal / illegal if you prefer) stem from a longer tradition of precedent etc, and not just what the majority of the UN believe at this moment in time?

Besides, the United States doesn't seem to care about the UN most of the time these days, so I'm not sure why it matters.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:36   #38
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
What makes a "rogue nation" a "rogue nation" other than the fact they are not obedient to the US.
For me a "rogue nation" can be simply described as a nation of which the body of power is a threat to other nations, and individuals within that nation.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:37   #39
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't really agree with a consensus determining the validity of anything. Surely notions of right or wrong (or legal / illegal if you prefer) stem from a longer tradition of precedent etc, and not just what the majority of the UN believe at this moment in time?

Besides, the United States doesn't seem to care about the UN most of the time these days, so I'm not sure why it matters.
there is no precedence for validating wars.

except perhaps the crusades which were made 'valid' by papal bull.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:39   #40
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
there is no precedence for validating wars.
Again, our disciplines betray us, my mistake. I was not speaking about legal or case history, more about the attitudes that have evolved to armed confluct through recorded history. I'd imagine most people have an attitude towards Britain and France's declaration of war on Germany even if it's never been legally tested formally. That's basically what I meant.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:41   #41
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Why does the US have any more right to have Nuclear weapons then North Korea?
I didn't say it did. If anything my post was criticising the US decision to develop more nukes.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:42   #42
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Re: Well done Bush

such attitudes and questions about validity or right and wrong regarding warfare are essentially modern concepts.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:52   #43
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
such attitudes and questions about validity or right and wrong regarding warfare are essentially modern concepts.
In this context, what do you mean by modern? Even if we only take post-1945 events that's still quite a rich era to draw from?

Plus, I'm not sure these matters are purely unique. When judging whether a country has acted immorally I use many of the standards that I would when judging an individual, or other group of individuals. This is undoubtedly a simplistic approach but you can see what I am saying. Theft by one individual is wrong, theft by ten individuals is also wrong, theft by ten million organised into a state would also seem to be wrong.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:52   #44
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
such attitudes and questions about validity or right and wrong regarding warfare are essentially modern concepts.
The Romans (at least to begin with) always tried to justify their wars, normally by calling them "self-defence" or "assisting allies under threat" or whatever. By the end of the Republic, they could (and did) reasonably claim that they had acquired a rather large empire without starting any agressive wars at all. (Of course, once they were engaged in these "justified" wars, they treated their enemies without mercy, but that's a different matter.)
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:57   #45
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In this context, what do you mean by modern? Even if we only take post-1945 events that's still quite a rich era to draw from?

Plus, I'm not sure these matters are purely unique. When judging whether a country has acted immorally I use many of the standards that I would when judging an individual, or other group of individuals. This is undoubtedly a simplistic approach but you can see what I am saying. Theft by one individual is wrong, theft by ten individuals is also wrong, theft by ten million organised into a state would also seem to be wrong.
you're personalising this far too much. if you just want us to talk about what we believe then:

personally i do not believe wars need to be validated and support unilateral action.

but if we all just talk about our beliefs it gets a bit dull.

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teh senate r0x0rs
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 14:58   #46
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
but if we all just talk about our beliefs it gets a bit dull.
Personally I find that the interesting bits. You get to find out what people believe and (sometimes) the rationalisation behind these beliefs.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 15:07   #47
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Re: Well done Bush

I would not wish it.

I would recommend doing whatever we can to stop it.

if it happened i would regret it.

no i would not consider it 'wrong'
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 15:22   #48
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Re: Well done Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I didn't ask if it was 'wrong' I asked if it would be OK?
i've given answers to all that you could have meant by using the colloquialism 'ok'

ok?
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 15:26   #49
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Re: Well done Bush

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Wy does the US have any more right to have Nuclear weapons then North Korea?
Since they invented them, yes I do believe the US has more right to have them than North Korea. Given they are so deadly and we are in an age where I think the majority of the worlds population we want peace to prevail, I think the US (among others who already have the technology) are fully justified in preventing others from going nuclear.

The bottom line is we have too many nukes in the world as it is, the last thing we need to do is encourage others to start producing more.
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Unread 10 Feb 2005, 15:31   #50
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Re: Well done Bush

can you not read what i post?
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