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Unread 6 May 2007, 18:08   #1
All Systems Go
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[Football]Well it's all over

But at least we went out like champions.

Plus, we're going to Wembly for the only cup the Special One hasn't won in the English competition.

Bring on next season!
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Unread 6 May 2007, 18:15   #2
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Went out like champions? I'm sorry, you have to put in a winning performance to do that.


Two trophies gone, one to go.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 18:27   #3
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Went out like champions? I'm sorry, you have to put in a winning performance to do that.


Two trophies gone, one to go.
Carling Cup winners, FA Cup Final to go, 2nd in the Premiership, Champions League Semi-Final.

We have had an absolutly torrid time with injuries. Robben, Joe Cole, Petr Cech, Carlo Cudicni, John terry have all be out of months at a time (which meant Essien was defending which was a loss to the midfield) and we've still been pushing for all four competitions.

Against Arsenal, with 10 men and no Sheva, Drogba, Ashley Cole, Carvhallo, Robben, Ballack, we were fantastic in the second half and didn't give up until the final whistle.

Yes, we've not won the league, but it wasn't because the team didn't play like champions. What has been achieved this season has been fantastic.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 18:39   #4
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
What has been achieved this season has been fantastic.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 18:54   #5
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Yes, we've not won the league, but it wasn't because the team didn't play like champions.
The two are entirely coincidental.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 19:13   #6
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
and didn't give up until the final whistle.
Lets be honest, given the importance of the match, if you hadn't, you should have been relegated on principle.

It wasnt until 50/60 minutes you actually looked like you suddenly realised the consequences of being 1-0 down.


Oh and every side has had injury problems.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 19:27   #7
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Parry
I guess when you've invested £500m it's a fantastic season to win the League Cup
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Unread 6 May 2007, 20:18   #8
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
That's kind of short sighted. First of all Chelsea had previously won 2 titles in a row. Furthermore they have about as well this season than they did in previous seasons, its just that United have raised the bar. I expect Chelsea to be outstanding next season. Also you can't squeeze all that £500million into every team, you can only field 11 players.
Yes, Chelsea has done great during the few recent years. And obviously Chelsea will be outstanding next season too, and more money will be spent to ensure it. Whilst you can only fit 11 into a lineup, by spending loads and loads of (more than others) money on your team, you should be able to cope better with "torrid" injuries and such (as of the 11 names mentioned only John Terry is a more "long time Chelsea", the rest have been bought, a few with more than 20m£). It's not like you could say not claiming a major trophy is acceptable losses to Abrahamovic at this point (see: Claudio Ranieri), given the vast amounts of transfer funds at Mourinho's disposal.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 22:05   #9
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Chelsea lacked the necessary variety of tactics this season and given the size and depth of the squad I am not sure that injuries can be something to honestly complain about. Chelsea won an awful lot of last minute 1-0's this season it wasn't like they were playing unstoppable football and then people started getting injured.

United have been top for most of the season and have played some truly extraordinary football, so its not liked Chelsea lost the title, United were clearly the better side all in all. It might be nice next week when the 2 teams play each other and the pressure is off to see if Chelsea can play the flowing skillfull open football the players are clearly capable off.

In saying all that I think the fact that Chelsea kept the pressure up all this time and went on an amazing winning streak has made this season one of the most interesting for years. Also on paper its difficult to see why Chelsea wouldn't be favourites for next year if they have Cole back and can get the best from Ballack. If you look at United's squad it seems to be asking too much for Giggs and Scholes to pull out the same amazing season all over again.
Regardless of this and the fact that all sides have had injuries, Chelsea had injuries to several key players in key areas over the middle part of the season which is all about racking up result after result and have been hanging on for dear life and have just kept on winning. The last week or so they've ran out of gas and despite Mourinho being a twat recently, I've had every admiration for their attitude and commitment to playing the game. The recent comments by people slating Mourinho and the way Chelsea play are all absolute bollocks in my opinion, they play the way they want to and they are damn good at it. If Chelsea were my team I'd be ****ing proud of them cos they've had their backs to the wall for a very long time and performed very well regardless.

It's a shame really that the title had to end like this - I'd have been more satisfied if United won at Stamford Bridge for example or a team won it on the last day as it's been a long time since we had a proper fight to the bitter end for the title. I hope that while the game on wednesday is a dead fixture both sides go at it 110% to prove a point. As for Chelsea, I wouldn't expect them to play expansively for anyone. They'll go for the same pace and power as ever, trying to disrupt United and trying to find killer moves of their own when they are in possession. People might criticise them for playing as they do but they are good at it, it's not boring when they really go for it, so I'm just looking forward to two very different teams getting stuck into each other. Hopefully it won't descend into playfights or someithng.

United's ease at putting teams away during that time Chelsea were struggling has told and Chelsea just couldn't keep up and that's precisely why United deserve it. Chelsea have been made to look like a side desperately trying to avoid relegation rather than to win the title.
United have done it while playing football that people like to watch so well done to them. The win away at Bolton was a statement of intent but the win at Everton was the most impressive for me, simply because United pulled it out when really they should have lost and it's winning the hard games that make or break a season.

All money does is buy you players. It doesn't buy you a team or titles.
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Unread 6 May 2007, 22:27   #10
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

i can honestly see the game at stanford bridge either being a hell for leather game sd they both try and show how good they are, or the worst limp fish of the season as neither will want to give anything away or pick up any more injuries ahead of the cup, its not going to be one of those 'ok' games of football
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Unread 7 May 2007, 00:16   #11
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Lets be honest, given the importance of the match, if you hadn't, you should have been relegated on principle.

It wasnt until 50/60 minutes you actually looked like you suddenly realised the consequences of being 1-0 down.


Oh and every side has had injury problems.
Well, were down to 10 men which sort of requiredd half-time to get our shit together and make a more serious challange.

In regards to injuries, Chelsea lost their main defender (and captain) as wel as thie their two best keepers at the same time. Whichever way you look at it, that is a major blow. Especially during the busy Christmas period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Chelsea lacked the necessary variety of tactics this season and given the size and depth of the squad I am not sure that injuries can be something to honestly complain about. Chelsea won an awful lot of last minute 1-0's this season it wasn't like they were playing unstoppable football and then people started getting injured.
It depends how you define 'unstoppable.' Chlesea have only lost 3 game so far this season. the dip in form came when they lost a few key players at the same time. tha is not a coincidence. there were some serious problems in the defence and an extra defender was seriously needed in January, but no-one was signed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yes, Chelsea has done great during the few recent years. And obviously Chelsea will be outstanding next season too, and more money will be spent to ensure it. Whilst you can only fit 11 into a lineup, by spending loads and loads of (more than others) money on your team, you should be able to cope better with "torrid" injuries and such (as of the 11 names mentioned only John Terry is a more "long time Chelsea", the rest have been bought, a few with more than 20m£).
they could have spent money on a central defender in January and done far better this year, so money isn't some kind of limiting fator.

Like Man U havn't spent shitlonds on players? Rooney? Ferdinand? Out of that list only 2 cost more than £20 million, one was Sheva (who wouldn't pay that for him) and the other was Drogba (who was the best player all season), so it's not exactly been a waste.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 00:20   #12
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go

In regards to injuries, Chelsea lost their main defender (and captain) as wel as thie their two best keepers at the same time. Whichever way you look at it, that is a major blow. Especially during the busy Christmas period.

yet somehow they have still let in less goals than man utd this year... their problem hasnt truly been defence imho, its been lack of commitment from a comple of big signings, and their midfield simply not being in the form that they have been in the last 2 seasons
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Unread 7 May 2007, 00:27   #13
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
yet somehow they have still let in less goals than man utd this year... their problem hasnt truly been defence imho, its been lack of commitment from a comple of big signings, and their midfield simply not being in the form that they have been in the last 2 seasons
the problems in defence hav edragged Essien away from midfield. this then results in less goals being scored.

Drogba has been in far better form then ever before. Sheva has scored a decent amount of goals considering how he started.

Ballack hasn't been brilliant, but apart from that, I don't see wher eyou can complain.

Even Kalou has scored a decent numbr of goals of his age/number of games plaed.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 00:46   #14
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

according to the BBC, sheva has scored 4 goals in premiership games this season, thats not a decent amount for a £30 million signing


and im not complaining, as that would mean i care, im simply pointing out the obvious
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Unread 7 May 2007, 00:51   #15
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Like Man U havn't spent shitlonds on players? Rooney? Ferdinand? Out of that list only 2 cost more than £20 million, one was Sheva (who wouldn't pay that for him) and the other was Drogba (who was the best player all season), so it's not exactly been a waste.
Consider the length of time these signings have been spread over, as well as the quantity of them.


Current first-team players only:

Man United

Rio Ferdinand - £30m - July 2002
Cristiano Ronaldo - £12.25m - August 2003
note: Beckham/Veron sold for a combined £40m - August 2003
Louis Saha - £12.8m - January 2004
Alan Smith - £7m - May 2004
Wayne Rooney - £20m - August 2004
Edwin Van der Sar - free - June 2005
Nemanja Vidic - £7m - January 2006
Patrice Evra - £5.5m - January 2006
Michael Carrick - £18.6m - July 2006


Chelsea

Joe Cole - £6.6m - August 2003
Claude Makelele - £16.6m - September 2003
Petr Cech - £7m - June 2004
Arjen Robben - £12m - July 2004
Paulo Ferreira - £13.2m - July 2004
Didier Drogba - £24m - July 2004
Ricardo Carvalho - £20m - July 2004
Shaun Wright-Phillips - £21m - July 2005
Michael Essien - £24.4m - August 2005
Salomon Kalou - £8m - May 2006
Andrei Shevchenko - £30m - May 2006
Khalid Boulahrouz - £7m - August 2006
Ashley Cole - £5m + Gallas - August 2006



I count 4 players over £20m there, with a few over £10m as well. When Man United have spent big and have been able to afford to. Who remembers Parker, Tiago, Veron, Kezman, Duff, Mutu, Crespo? You didn't make anything even approaching a profit on any of them.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 01:04   #16
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
according to the BBC, sheva has scored 4 goals in premiership games this season, thats not a decent amount for a £30 million signing


and im not complaining, as that would mean i care, im simply pointing out the obvious
Obviously, it's not great but he's scored 14 in total and he has been getting better as vime as gne . I would bet he will do better next season. He is used to Italian football, he has been there for many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Consider the length of time these signings have been spread over, as well as the quantity of them.


Current first-team players only:

Man United

Rio Ferdinand - £30m - July 2002
Cristiano Ronaldo - £12.25m - August 2003
note: Beckham/Veron sold for a combined £40m - August 2003
Louis Saha - £12.8m - January 2004
Alan Smith - £7m - May 2004
Wayne Rooney - £20m - August 2004
Edwin Van der Sar - free - June 2005
Nemanja Vidic - £7m - January 2006
Patrice Evra - £5.5m - January 2006
Michael Carrick - £18.6m - July 2006
this is still an obsecen amount of money. Chlesea were bought by a billionaire so it makes Man Utds expenditure look modest in comparison, but it really isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Chelsea

Joe Cole - £6.6m - August 2003
Claude Makelele - £16.6m - September 2003
Petr Cech - £7m - June 2004
Arjen Robben - £12m - July 2004
Paulo Ferreira - £13.2m - July 2004
Didier Drogba - £24m - July 2004
Ricardo Carvalho - £20m - July 2004
Shaun Wright-Phillips - £21m - July 2005
Michael Essien - £24.4m - August 2005
Salomon Kalou - £8m - May 2006
Andrei Shevchenko - £30m - May 2006
Khalid Boulahrouz - £7m - August 2006
Ashley Cole - £5m + Gallas - August 2006
If you keep in mind that Chelsea get massively ripped off in every transfer because Abramovich is mega-rich then it doesn't look so bad.

Apart from Ferraria and Wright-Phillips, everyone one of those players have been brilliant and well worth the money, even though they were massively over-priced.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 01:08   #17
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Chelsea were buying from a position of weakness in the sense that their stature isn't that of Manchester United, everyone knows they are super rich so they were bound to overpay. Not to mention the fact that Chelsea had flair to a ridiculous level which Mourinho ain't interested in so they needed a new team. There's also issue with who is spending what. Even where they have overpaid, I'd say 7 of them (should be pretty obvious) have been worth the money.

Lets not forget that United have a crushing level of income compared to pretty much any club and if clubs were run like businesses they would outspend everyone. The fact is to contend for the title when you aren't a top english club you have to spend like mad to a ridiculous level, cos football at the top level in England is pretty much an oligarchy, where the elite teams have the top positions and the finances are rigged so they benefit more than everyone else. It's arguable that spending to this level is necessary. Blackburn did it when you required far less money, and I'd say every Blackburn fan would say it was worth every penny.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 01:20   #18
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
this is still an obsecen amount of money. Chlesea were bought by a billionaire so it makes Man Utds expenditure look modest in comparison, but it really isn't.
Man United have balanced the books, Chelsea haven't. Old Trafford brings in a lot of money, meaning they could afford these players - or does "richest club in the world" mean nothing to you?

I don't care who pays for your players, the point was that you tried to compare yourselves to United, and you failed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you keep in mind that Chelsea get massively ripped off in every transfer because Abramovich is mega-rich then it doesn't look so bad.

Apart from Ferraria and Wright-Phillips, everyone one of those players have been brilliant and well worth the money, even though they were massively over-priced.
Being ripped off is your problem. If you hadn't made it public knowledge that you'd pay whatever it takes for certain players (Essien, Drogba, etc) then you wouldn't have been laughed at when buying people like Shaun Wright-Phillips.

As for every player being brilliant, what are you going on about? Wright-Phillips, Ferreira, Shevchenko, Kalou, Boulahrouz :crymeariver:


And I'm not going to let you forgot the other players you bought. It's 1am and I'm not sure why I'm still awake, but I seem to have time on my hands, so I'll spell it out for you.

Glen Johnson - £6m, out on permanent loan
Geremi - £7m
Damien Duff - £17m, sold for £5m
Wayne Bridge - £7m
Juan Veron - £15m, released
Adrian Mutu - £15.8m, released
Hernan Crespo - £16.8m, out on permanent loan
Scott Parker - £10m, sold for £6.5m
Tiago - £8m, sold for £6.5m
Asier Del Horno - £8m, sold for £4.8m
Shaun Wright-Phillips - £21m

That's hardly the model of economic efficiency.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 01:23   #19
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

They are paying stupid amounts for market entry to the top table, because it's the only way to get there and Abramovich can afford it. You need success to get revenue, so Chelsea have to build the club backwards.

If that doesn't tell you how absurdly football is structured, nothing can. Abramovich wants his team to be successful so he pays, simple as. Just like Jack Walker paid money beyond reason to see Blackburn lift the title.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 05:20   #20
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Like Man U havn't spent shitlonds on players? Rooney? Ferdinand? Out of that list only 2 cost more than £20 million, one was Sheva (who wouldn't pay that for him) and the other was Drogba (who was the best player all season), so it's not exactly been a waste.
"More than 20m£" is a good way of dodging 20m£ for Carvalho?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Joe Cole - £6.6m - August 2003
Claude Makelele - £16.6m - September 2003
Petr Cech - £7m - June 2004
Arjen Robben - £12m - July 2004
Paulo Ferreira - £13.2m - July 2004
Didier Drogba - £24m - July 2004
Ricardo Carvalho - £20m - July 2004
Shaun Wright-Phillips - £21m - July 2005
Michael Essien - £24.4m - August 2005
Salomon Kalou - £8m - May 2006
Andrei Shevchenko - £30m - May 2006
Khalid Boulahrouz - £7m - August 2006
Ashley Cole - £5m + Gallas - August 2006
And the signing that perhaps caps the list...
John Obi Mikel - 16m£ - June 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Damien Duff - £17m, sold for £5m
Juan Veron - £15m, released
Adrian Mutu - £15.8m, released
Hernan Crespo - £16.8m, out on permanent loan
Scott Parker - £10m, sold for £6.5m
Tiago - £8m, sold for £6.5m
Asier Del Horno - £8m, sold for £4.8m
Brilliant catches here.



You simply can't compare the amount spent to any other team's spendings.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 09:46   #21
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Its very difficult to do but it would make more sense to look at the value of players, no matter how much they cost, I think most managers would crawl across broken glass for players like Terry, Lampard, Cole and Cech. With Chelsea and Man United everyone always seem to add £5million when dealing with them. £18million for Carrick ffs!
What you're missing here is that these players 'weren't for sale'. This is why the clubs demanded huge transfer fees - both Drogba and Essien were vital to their teams in France, so £20m was always going to be a starting point. Most teams are forced to accept that they won't be able to buy the player, but Chelsea and Man United (to a lesser extent) will just stump up the cash anyway.

Likewise, Carrick wasn't for sale. He was key to Spurs' team that nearly made the Champions League last season. The fact is that Man United could afford £18m, so they were able to buy him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
"More than 20m£" is a good way of dodging 20m£ for Carvalho?
For Chelsea money, Carvalho was worth every penny. Great central defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
And the signing that perhaps caps the list...
John Obi Mikel - 16m£ - June 2006
I'm not certain about criticising this - he's a superb player. The transfer saga surrounding it is a whole different story
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Unread 7 May 2007, 09:51   #22
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I can only say im not looking forward to go over to the UK and watch Luton play fkn Leyton Orient
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Unread 7 May 2007, 09:55   #23
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I can only say im not looking forward to go over to the UK and watch Luton play fkn Leyton Orient
Did you murder someone? Is this your punishment?
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Unread 7 May 2007, 13:00   #24
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I am not sure that any of this argument is fair.

Its very difficult to do but it would make more sense to look at the value of players, no matter how much they cost, I think most managers would crawl across broken glass for players like Terry, Lampard, Cole and Cech. With Chelsea and Man United everyone always seem to add £5million when dealing with them. £18million for Carrick ffs!

Furthermore whilst United didn't pay for Scholes, Neville and Giggs there is no doubt they were all worth £20-30million at one stage. About 7 years ago if Scholes had gone to another team that team would have been built around him and he would have gone down as one of the greatest players in that teams history. But what are other teams supposed to do? say "oh well that's home grown talent, fair play give them the championship." It seems to me that they have every right to spend money to catch up. Especially since a lot of that money has gotten spread around the premiership. Spurs had a good side at the beginning of last season and then they got the best part of £20million for one player so they can go out and buy a few more tasty players. A few more good investments like that and they could find themselves contenders in a few years.

Finally I think Chelsea have found a new sort of barrier now, which is that once you get over a certain number of big name players its hard to keep them happy if you can't guarantee them games. Also the problem with rotating certain positions is that if you don't have that consistency and it creates more problems than it solves. Shaun Wright-Phillips is an obvious example of this, but there are going to be a few players who are going to feel overlooked. This is especially a problem for imported players because they need games to get used to the different rhythm of play.

I was actually really disappointed that Shevchenko wasn't more awesome this season, but I think he would benefit from playing in a team with different tactics. If Chelsea had more width then it would create more space for him in the centre.
Good post, got to agree with a lot of that. Chelsea are paying only because they've got to spend that much to get to the top level, Abramovich can, so Chelsea are spending pots of cash. I doubt Mourinho is poorly paid either so they paid for a top manager too. Sadly we're in an era where you have to spend pots of cash to get anywhere and it's very hard to genuinely build a team to get to the top level on a reasonably modest budget (Allardyce gave up with Bolton)

The only thing I'd take issue with is Shevchenko. He's with the wrong team and the wrong manager and I think he went to Chelsea because Chelsea were the only club who could afford him. If you want to play for Chelsea who are given a role and you've got to play with 110% commitment, which in Chelsea terms make him a passenger, because he's a predatory striker and a very good one at that. If we want to see the best of Shevchenko, he has to leave Chelsea to join a team who play more creative football. People might say "why don't Chelsea play more expansive football" but the fact is they don't want to, they are successful and they are a good side regardless.

If he's a Mourinho signing it's baffling. If he's an Abramovich signing then it's no wonder why Chelsea have struggled to accomodate him. Most managers would have left seeing players sold over their head so if Mourinho has stayed regardless, we can either accuse him of being gutless for accepting it or courageous for trying to win regardless of the constraints upon him.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 13:09   #25
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Did you murder someone? Is this your punishment?
Kenilworth Road is probably one of the few grounds that I can genuinely say:

It's worse than ours. And that's why we are a massive club.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 13:15   #26
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
But at least we went out like champions.
For 20 minutes at the end. Before that you were pap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Against Arsenal, with 10 men and no Sheva, Drogba, Ashley Cole, Carvhallo, Robben, Ballack, we were fantastic in the second half and didn't give up until the final whistle.

Yes, we've not won the league, but it wasn't because the team didn't play like champions. What has been achieved this season has been fantastic.
Yeah, Thierry Henry and Van Persie had an absolute field day today i thought, you did well to stop them.

Also you cant on one hand criticise Shev/Ballack then cite them as reasons why you didnt win on the other hand.

The only thing you've achieved is an entire year of shit football and a League Cup against arsenal reserves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
they play the way they want to and they are damn good at it. If Chelsea were my team I'd be ****ing proud of them cos they've had their backs to the wall for a very long time and performed very well regardless.
.
So good that they managed to turn an entire anti-man utd nation back to Man utd without actually winning anything of any note, and not turning up in key games.

Its not difficult to perform 'backs against the wall' when you buy so many players. Even next week, look at the difference between the Chelsea and Man Utd benches - itll be Cudicini / Cole / Robben / Kalou / Shevchenko vs Kuscak / O'Shea / Fletcher / Richardson / Eagles.

Why do you keep giving credit to the favourites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Well, were down to 10 men which sort of requiredd half-time to get our shit together and make a more serious challange.

In regards to injuries, Chelsea lost their main defender (and captain) as wel as thie their two best keepers at the same time. Whichever way you look at it, that is a major blow. Especially during the busy Christmas period.

there were some serious problems in the defence and an extra defender was seriously needed in January, but no-one was signed.
You were down to 10 men because you got a man rightly sent off; not because of some anti-chelsea campaign. My, how you fought back from adversity :cry:

Man Utd were lucky Gary Neville didnt get injured at all this year, phew.

So why wasnt one signed? Im sure liverpool wouldnt have been 15+ points behind Man Utd/Chelsea if they had a competent left winger but thats not the point either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go


If you keep in mind that Chelsea get massively ripped off in every transfer because Abramovich is mega-rich then it doesn't look so bad.
:violin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Chelsea were buying from a position of weakness in the sense that their stature isn't that of Manchester United, everyone knows they are super rich so they were bound to overpay.
The backbone of the Chelsea team has been Lampard and Terry, both of whom were already there, and until last season, gudjohnsen. Buying the best goalkeeper in the world doesnt hurt but its not like Cudicini was a mug either. Essentially what im trying to say is its not altogether true to try and represent chelsea as starting from nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball


I'm not certain about criticising this - he's a superb player. The transfer saga surrounding it is a whole different story
haha what? 2 goals and 2 red cards in a debut season plighted with pettyness and obvious failing.

Oh yeah, hes young, but you dont get to hide behind that at 16m
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Unread 7 May 2007, 14:12   #27
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
So good that they managed to turn an entire anti-man utd nation back to Man utd without actually winning anything of any note, and not turning up in key games.

Its not difficult to perform 'backs against the wall' when you buy so many players. Even next week, look at the difference between the Chelsea and Man Utd benches - itll be Cudicini / Cole / Robben / Kalou / Shevchenko vs Kuscak / O'Shea / Fletcher / Richardson / Eagles.

Why do you keep giving credit to the favourites?
Like T&F, they have a squad of 25, like anyone else. They don't have a lot of players and started from having zero infrastructure where their total youth output to the first team is a grand total of #1. The fact is whether you like watching them or not, they are a very good team, who play with a must win attitude that I think is commendable. I admire their attitude and will to win, you don't have to like it. Is giving credit to the favourites a crime if you actually think they are good? Does my Britishness mean I should support the 'underdog' and blindly not give any credit to a team who are actually quite good too? I've not slagged United at any stage, because they are an excellent team. I just feel that a lot of abuse that Chelsea are getting is unfair.

Quote:
The backbone of the Chelsea team has been Lampard and Terry, both of whom were already there, and until last season, gudjohnsen. Buying the best goalkeeper in the world doesnt hurt but its not like Cudicini was a mug either. Essentially what im trying to say is its not altogether true to try and represent chelsea as starting from nothing.
Well Lampard cost money and Terry is the one product of Chelsea's youth system. Gudjohnsen was only ever at his best in a 4-4-2 alongside Hasselbaink and Mourinho was right to ship him out. Chelsea weren't starting from nothing but they were miles behind United, much like any club have been. Arsenal may not have had the riches, but Wenger is ridiculously well connected and got the best French players in at knockdown prices and inherited a back 4 and keeper that most fans can recite off the top of their head and he started before the prem money got ridiculous. Relatively, it's not very much at all. I don't really approve of sides spending to win the title, but in the current football climate it's totally justifiable because it's the only way.

As for Mikel. Could be a good player but considering he's so young, has been kidnapped by his agent and has money beyond his wildest dreams, has received death threats demanding he turn out for Nigeria and been involved in a tug of war between the world's richest clubs, it comes as no shock that he's screwed in the head and has a ridiculous attitude problem. That boy needs a psychotherapist more than he needs to play football. In the cold light of day your analysis of him is spot on Deff, but go easy on him, he's a lad who has been through a lot.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 14:25   #28
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

They have a squad of 25 bought players; primarily proven at various levels of top class football

Man Utd's 25 includes players like O'Shea, Brown, Eagles, Richardson, Fletcher, who arent first XI players and didnt cost **** all.

Should we therefore feel sorry for chelsea, because theyve basically chosen to bypass their youth system? Without Abramovich's money theres a high probability this season we would have seen break out years for Sahar and in particular Scott Sinclair who looked like a real prospect at Plymouth when he was on loan. Just because theyve been unable/unwilling to fill places in their squad with their own youth players doesnt man we should somehow feel sorry for them for having 'just a squad of 25'.

Gudjohnsen was an excellent utility and midfield player in his last 2 years at Chelsea, otherwise Barcelona wouldnt have signed him. Lampard cost money before the Chelski era.


Its not all about winning, you should only give plaudits for style, especially if you dont even support the team in question.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 15:03   #29
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. If I said there is no justice Chelsea should have won the league etc etc then I'd be feeling sorry for them. Chelsea are a good team. Accept it. I can watch a Chelsea game and tolerate it, cos they've got good players who are committed and actually look good on the ball. Drogba is worth the attendance alone some games. If you're good at football, you'll be good to watch and you'll win games. Watford play like Chelsea although maybe they are a bit more negative but because their players are shit, you wouldn't want to watch them. They have 25 in their squad because any more and you don't have a real team. Mourinho has made it clear - until you're the finished product like Diarra, you don't get in.

The thing about focussing on style, is that teams aren't just concerned about style, they are about winning and pleasing their own too. Demanding teams play stylishly even if it costs them games is just daft. I prefer teams that play with style but that doesn't make teams like Bolton the enemy, if they are doing well with the way they are playing you can't really blame then can you? I don't see a problem with you being selfish about watching your football but if you don't like certain teams or the look of certain games don't watch them, you aren't a football manager.

Even the most expansive brilliant teams are capable of serving up tremendous shit at times; United can demolish someone 3-0 at home with some great skills on the face of it but it's all pathetic because quite often (but not always), the other team is just afraid of them and lets them play instead of make them play, like Blackburn and Everton did. I can't stand games where poorer teams make it worse for themselves by giving good teams space and defending badly because that makes sure that they will get beaten. I don't want to see games dictated by one team being shit. I want games to be won by teams being too good for their opposition, cos that's earning a result. I don't see how anyone can watch these kind of games and take any satisfaction from them.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 15:29   #30
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Mikel was ****ed up in his head when he came to Norway (to play for Lyn). But it seems Mourinho have manged to get his ego down to a more normal level.

Chelsea already had a good team when Mourinho got it. Not only Lampard and Terry, but also Makelele, Duff etc. Most mangers would have been very pleased to inherit such a squad. The purchase of that squad was also a reason why Chelsea was nearly bankrupt before Abramovich came inn.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 16:02   #31
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
£18million for Carrick ffs!
21m£ for Wright-Phillips FFFFFFS! OMG OMG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Furthermore whilst United didn't pay for Scholes, Neville and Giggs there is no doubt they were all worth £20-30million at one stage. About 7 years ago if Scholes had gone to another team that team would have been built around him and he would have gone down as one of the greatest players in that teams history. But what are other teams supposed to do? say "oh well that's home grown talent, fair play give them the championship." It seems to me that they have every right to spend money to catch up.
Yes, indeed. There's quite a bit of difference between buying a prime pitch for yourself with the money of an ex-Soviet white-collar thief who, according to sources, never gave **** all about football before his megalomaniac tendencies required him to buy a club and pour in the best he can get with money.

Likewise, had Scholes been bought away from Manchester United before the prime of his career, he wouldn't have been at 20m£ tag, not by a longshot. On the other hand, if you'd buy him to make your club succeed at his prime, he'd definately have costed as much as Drogba or any other Abrahamovic-bought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Finally I think Chelsea have found a new sort of barrier now, which is that once you get over a certain number of big name players its hard to keep them happy if you can't guarantee them games.
That's understandable. It must be frusturating to be bought for 21m£ to sit on the subs bench.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Man Utd were lucky Gary Neville didnt get injured at all this year, phew.
The talk about Chelsea season going tits up because of injuries in the back of the pitch is silly too. Manchester United season didn't go "fubar" even if they did have some key defenders injured too.

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Unread 7 May 2007, 16:09   #32
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Another point is that despite all their supposed defensive 'problems', Chelsea kept 6 more clean sheets than Man Utd this year.

Thus their problem was not primarily in defence.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 16:13   #33
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Another point is that despite all their supposed defensive 'problems', Chelsea kept 6 more clean sheets than Man Utd this year.

Thus their problem was not primarily in defence.
Keeping more clean sheets than Man Utd doesn't mean that they didn't have a defensive problem. Man Utd's style of football means that they score 3-4 goals in quite a few games and play quite offensively, Chelsea's style of play means that they score 1-2 goals and play rather defensively.
Having a goal scored against you when you're 3-0 up isn't that much of a problem. Having a goal scored against you when you're 1-0 up is a problem.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 16:40   #34
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Likewise, had Scholes been bought away from Manchester United before the prime of his career, he wouldn't have been at 20m£ tag, not by a longshot. On the other hand, if you'd buy him to make your club succeed at his prime, he'd definately have costed as much as Drogba or any other Abrahamovic-bought.
I disagree. If you'd wanted to buy Scholes in his mid-20s Man United would have asked for £20-25m minimum because of his importance to the club, especially since the transfer market bubbled between 1999 and 2002. The fact that this didn't happen reflects his loyalty to United, not the inability of anyone to pay for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Finally I think Chelsea have found a new sort of barrier now, which is that once you get over a certain number of big name players its hard to keep them happy if you can't guarantee them games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
That's understandable. It must be frusturating to be bought for 21m£ to sit on the subs bench.
'Football Manager syndrome'.
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Unread 7 May 2007, 21:12   #35
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Hang on All Systems Go, why do you support Chelsea?

Don't you come from Wales or something bizarre?

I thought the welsh hate the english? Or am I wrong?
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Unread 7 May 2007, 21:23   #36
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Hang on All Systems Go, why do you support Chelsea?

Don't you come from Wales or something bizarre?

I thought the welsh hate the english? Or am I wrong?
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Unread 7 May 2007, 21:48   #37
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

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Predictable, tired, unfunny and innacurate. that's quote an achievement for a 5 word post.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:29   #38
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Predictable, tired, unfunny and innacurate. that's quote an achievement for a 5 word post.
Well is he wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
I should probably take this opportunity to point out that I'm not from Manchester. Like most Manchester United fans outside of China, I am from London.
But like most Manchester United fans you are not from Manchester, and I am assuming you haven't just started supporting them. In fact I am assuming them for most of your life.

Chelsea though seems to be a weird choice of a team to support for someone living in Wales.

Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal I can understand as these were successful teams pre 2003. But Chelsea, thats just weird.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:32   #39
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Well is he wrong?
i think "inaccurate" covered that.



Quote:
Chelsea though seems to be a weird choice of a team to support for someone living in Wales.

Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal I can understand as these were successful teams pre 2003. But Chelsea, thats just weird.
so wouldnt that suggest ASG isnt supporting them purely for gloryhunting reasons, or am i missing something here
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:36   #40
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
i think "inaccurate" covered that.
Well I don't. He didn't say why he supported Chelsea and thus not answering my original question. He avoided my question and made a remark to furballs remark which was a remark to my question to ASG.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
so wouldnt that suggest ASG isnt supporting them purely for gloryhunting reasons, or am i missing something here
I think you missed the question I asked ASG, which neither he or you have answered.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:45   #41
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Well I don't. He didn't say why he supported Chelsea and thus not answering my original question. He avoided my question and made a remark to furballs remark which was a remark to my question to ASG.





I think you missed the question I asked ASG, which neither he or you have answered.
no, he didnt answer yours. but your subsequent reply was arse.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:46   #42
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Well at least we agree that he didn't answer my question.

I however won't stoop so low as to insult another posters post in public.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:47   #43
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I've supported Chelsea all my life. I suppose it's because my father did.

I do come from Wales and there is no loca team to support (Cardiff and Swansea are 20+ miles away and may as well be in Japan.

I really couldn't give a shit about hating the Enlgish or any of that nationalistic, artificially concieved bollocks which people call 'patriotism'.

Any other aspects of my life you would like to question? Maybe my desire to see the overthrow ofcapitalism? Or what about my new found like of Southern Comfort, perhaps you would like to insinuate that's because of the 'SoCo' effect, which would make me eligable for execution?
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Unread 8 May 2007, 00:52   #44
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I just wanted to know why you supported Chelsea that is all.

Only other questions I have in regard to that are:

Have you been supporting them all your life? Or has your love for Chelsea been reignited once a certain Russian bought the club.

Have you ever been to Stamford Bridge?

Do you go regurlarly if you have?

Do you feel genuine fans are being priced out from watching Chelsea?

Quote:
Any other aspects of my life you would like to question?
I think that would be inaprorpriate in a football thread. Hence my football related questions thus far.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 01:11   #45
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I just wanted to know why you supported Chelsea that is all.

Only other questions I have in regard to that are:

Have you been supporting them all your life?
Once again, yes.

Quote:
Or has your love for Chelsea been reignited once a certain Russian bought the club.
Well of course. Having been completely bland, without any players of note and without any sort of competition wins until 2004, why would I bother paying any attention?

Quote:
Have you ever been to Stamford Bridge?
No. I have never been in a position to make such a trip, without having to sell one of my kidneys.

Quote:
Do you go regurlarly if you have?
I was hoping to start going when I moved to London but that fell through so no. I do one day hope to acquire a season ticket though.

Quote:
Do you feel genuine fans are being priced out from watching Chelsea?
that depends on what you mean by 'genuine'. If you mean poor people, then they probably are but they'll keep paying as long as they can afford to.

Quote:
I think that would be inaprorpriate in a football thread. Hence my football related questions thus far.
Well if you wish to interrigate me on some other aspect of my life, feel free to make another thread for the occasion.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 03:44   #46
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I'm not sure why being a lifelong fan of Chelsea is commendable when you take into account that before Abrahamovich the club pretty much stood for BNP-style nationalism.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 09:35   #47
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I thought that was Millwall.

You might be right concerning the supporters but certainly Chelsea would be the worst nationalists ever given that since the mid-nineties they have been managed by foreigners (including Rudd Gullit) and were one of those teams oft-criticised for having a minority of English players.
A section of their hard core fans used to be in an unpleasant organisation called combat 18.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 10:48   #48
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm not sure why being a lifelong fan of Chelsea is commendable when you take into account that before Abrahamovich the club pretty much stood for BNP-style nationalism.
Why is being a life-long fan of any sporting team commendable? It doesn't make a worthwhile contribution to society, nor does it have any deeper meaning.

'Supporting' teams when they win is shit but you don't really support them, so what does it mean to anyone?
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Unread 8 May 2007, 10:51   #49
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why is being a life-long fan of any sporting team commendable? It doesn't make a worthwhile contribution to society, nor does it have any deeper meaning.

'Supporting' teams when they win is shit but you don't really support them, so what does it mean to anyone?
Didn't you even read what he said? He didn't say that there's any problem with supporting a football team, he said that it's better not to support clubs which have traditionally stood for "BNP-style nationalism". Perhaps that appeals to you and your father, who knows.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 10:55   #50
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Didn't you even read what he said? He didn't say that there's any problem with supporting a football team, he said that it's better not to support clubs which have traditionally stood for "BNP-style nationalism". Perhaps that appeals to you and your father, who knows.
Did you read what I wrote? I rejected his premise that supporting any football team is commendable.

that some Chelsea supporters were rascists doesn't mean anything to me. If I wanted to suppot racism I'd support the BNP directly, rather than supporting a team who has some supporters who have racist tendancies.

In what way have Chelsea Football Club supported 'BNP-style nationalism'?
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