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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:26   #1
Treveler
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Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Firstly short, simplified definitions.

Creatioism: The believe that the Bible is the word of God and therefore everything it says should be followed/taken literarily.

Evolution: A theory made by Darwin that states that life is in constant change and it evolves through mutations adapting to its environment.


I’m a student of biology and recently I have noticed that creatioism in the US has been more and more frequent in the media and caused concerns within the scientific community. As I understand it the support creatioism has grown and keeps growing stronger in parts of the US like Georgia and Kansas. Creatioism also got a big boost after Bush stated that evolution was "only a theory and that he didn’t hold much confident in it" or something similar.

As I understand it the creationists are trying to remove the teachings of evolution and replace it with creatioism in American schools.

Well I wonder. Is creatioism really growing in the US or is it only blown out of proportion in the press?

Are there any supporters of creatioism on GD?
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:29   #2
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

dont forget, a vast proportion of the Us is deeply religious, to the point of extremeism.
now, ask your question again and see if youve answered it
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:33   #3
Treveler
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
dont forget, a vast proportion of the Us is deeply religious, to the point of extremeism.
now, ask your question again and see if youve answered it
I doubt there is anyone more religious then the pope and even he (the Vatican) has acknowledge that evolution does take place.
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:38   #4
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

You'ld have to be a blind, deaf and dump idiot to not be able to recognise that it does happen. That pretty much explains Bush.
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:39   #5
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Firstly short, simplified definitions.

Creatioism: The believe that the Bible is the word of God and therefore everything it says should be followed/taken literarily.
wrong!
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:39   #6
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

  • For the love of god, creationism. How can you attempt to start a debate on a topic when you can't even write it's name?
  • Your definition of Creationism is incorrect
  • Evolution and Creationism do not exclude or contradict each other. Many religious people fully support evolutionism, with the notable exception that they reject it as the theory which explains the origins of humankind, claiming that humanity has evolved at a rate much faster, and not at all in optimal surroundings, than the theory would allow.
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:40   #7
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

yet another reason why leshy rocks
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:43   #8
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
claiming that humanity has evolved at a rate much faster, and not at all in optimal surroundings, than the theory would allow.
Are they claiming that 3-4 billion years (cant remember exactly the time of the first life form) isnt long enough for humans to have evolved or do they mean that everything else has evolved but humans are some kind of special case that was 'created'?
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:47   #9
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Exclamation Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Superstition will disapear soon enough. The problem is simply that the former slave states and their affiliates are several decades behind the rest of the western world in terms of social progress.*


















*I felt like being exceptionally offensive. *shrug.*
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:50   #10
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
yet another reason why leshy rocks
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:53   #11
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:54   #12
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Are they claiming that 3-4 billion years (cant remember exactly the time of the first life form) isnt long enough for humans to have evolved or do they mean that everything else has evolved but humans are some kind of special case that was 'created'?
I think both groups exist, actually.

There are those that doubt the whole "primordial ooze" thing, claiming that the chance for the first micro-organism to evolve is so small that it cannot account for the creation of life. I'm not well versed enough in biology to explain it fully, and properly, but that is pretty much the gist of it.

The second group claims that everything does evolve, including humans, but that the rate of evolution in humans so far surpasses that of other living creatures (sharks and crocodiles, for example, having changed very little over the course of millions of years), that the theory of evolution cannot be applied. Especially as the theory states that evolution happens most quickly, or drastically, or whatever, in a small secluded group - which primates were not.

Additionally, they point out how the evolution from monkey to man makes little sense; there would be very little evolutionary need for monkeys to stop climbing in trees and start running around on two legs on a mass scale, being notably slower and much more vulnerable to predators. There are a few other points which they touch on, such as the quite rapid increase of brain capacity in the whole monkey-man business.

They do have some points which seem valid, but as I said, I know quite little of biology and as such can't form an expert opinion on it.
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Unread 6 Mar 2005, 23:58   #13
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
[list][*]For the love of god, creationism. How can you attempt to start a debate on a topic when you can't even write it's name?
I’m sorry but the spelling checker I use accepted creatioism and it’s also widely used on many internet sites I’ve read through lately. I will use creationism from now on.

Quote:
[*]Your definition of Creationism is incorrect
There are many definitions and this is one of the more extreme, never the less it is valid (tho simplified). Creationism also refer to other religions but I used one who concerned Christianity.

Quote:
[*]Evolution and Creationism do not exclude or contradict each other. Many religious people fully support evolutionism, with the notable exception that they reject it as the theory which explains the origins of humankind, claiming that humanity has evolved at a rate much faster, and not at all in optimal surroundings, than the theory would allow.
I agree it don’t necessarily contradict or exclude but that wasn’t my point. The problem is those who take the word of the bible literarily and through the bible try to disprove evolution.

And why would evolution hold true for every race but humans?
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 00:12   #14
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I’m sorry but the spelling checker I use accepted creatioism
Get a better spell checker. That's not a word.

Oh, and you should have specified what you were talking about better. You're talking about Young Earth Creationism.

And finally:

OH CHRIST NOT AGAIN CAN WE NOT HAVE ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC FOR SOME TIME PLEASE AARGH.

That is all.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 00:17   #15
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
it’s also widely used on many internet sites I’ve read through lately.
If they said "creatioism", they were likely to be as useful to the subject as the average Teletubbies episode.
Quote:
never the less it is valid (tho simplified).
No, what you stated would be one particular group's view of creationism (and then creationism has nothing to do with the rest of the Bible, for example; you may disbelief the entire contents of it and still be a creationist). Creationism in regards to humanity is simply the belief that humans did not evolve from earlier species, but came to be through intervention of some kind. Possibly by a divine being, possibly by an alien race, possibly by a comet strike.
Quote:
And why would evolution hold true for every race but humans?
See a few posts up.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 00:46   #16
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Exclamation Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
As I understand it the creationists are trying to remove the teachings of evolution and replace it with creatioism in American schools.
They might want that but they're a long way away from it. Most of the efforts of creationists in the US has been to (a) force schools to teach that evolution is a theory and not a fact, and (b) include creationism as an alternate theory. They've had some success with (a) since it's technically true (although unimportant in a scientific sense) but far less success with (b).

Unfortunately, these types of issues come up when you have the state trying to set school curriculum.
Quote:
Well I wonder. Is creatioism really growing in the US or is it only blown out of proportion in the press?
It's probably been growing in the past decade or so, but it's also being hyped by the press.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
dont forget, a vast proportion of the Us is deeply religious, to the point of extremeism.
I have no idea what you mean by 'vast' or 'deeply'. I find these kinds of vague generalizations contribute little to an argument which already tends to be too emotional.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 00:48   #17
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
If they said "creatioism", they were likely to be as useful to the subject as the average Teletubbies episode.
No, what you stated would be one particular group's view of creationism (and then creationism has nothing to do with the rest of the Bible, for example; you may disbelief the entire contents of it and still be a creationist). Creationism in regards to humanity is simply the belief that humans did not evolve from earlier species, but came to be through intervention of some kind. Possibly by a divine being, possibly by an alien race, possibly by a comet strike.
See a few posts up.
I`m talking about those creationists who take the bible literarily as should be obvious by the definition. I used this definition to make it clear what part of creationism I wanted to discuss tho I could, as pointed out, be more specific.

I didnt actually look up any definition of creationism before I wrote this but I searched for a few definitions now.

1) http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lc03a&method=6

"Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible."

2) http://dict.die.net/creationism/

"the literal belief in the account of creation given in the
Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of
evolution of species"

3) http://www.wordreference.com/definition/creationism

creationism:

"The literal belief in the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of evolution of species"

4) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/creationism

creationism - the literal belief in the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of evolution of species"

I tried to find other relevant definitions but I couldnt find any.

and the idea of this thread was to find out if this was a growing "problem" or not in the US.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 00:50   #18
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I have no idea what you mean by 'vast' or 'deeply'.
Then might I suggest you buy a dictionary?
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 00:57   #19
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Exclamation Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

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Originally Posted by Proteus
Then might I suggest you buy a dictionary?
I have several, thanks. Unfortunately in this case I can't reconcile the words with the evidence.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 01:03   #20
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
They might want that but they're a long way away from it. Most of the efforts of creationists in the US has been to (a) force schools to teach that evolution is a theory and not a fact, and (b) include creationism as an alternate theory. They've had some success with (a) since it's technically true (although unimportant in a scientific sense) but far less success with (b).
Is this a nation wide effort or is it localised to a few states?

And isn’t evolution teached as a theory? It is after all although it is probably the strongest standing theory (of those who cant be proved for obvious reasons) we have today.

Quote:
It's probably been growing in the past decade or so, but it's also being hyped by the press.
Any thoughts of why it seem to have a renaissance recently?
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 01:15   #21
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I didnt actually look up any definition of creationism before I wrote this but I searched for a few definitions now.
Those are actually a bit more specific than I would have imagined, and I think they are too restrictive, personally.

However, the important difference between these and yours is that the central theme is the notion of creation by a god (as described in the book of Genesis), not belief in the Bible as a whole.

And I see no reason why creationism shouldn't be discussed in schools.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 01:33   #22
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Those are actually a bit more specific than I would have imagined, and I think they are too restrictive, personally.

However, the important difference between these and yours is that the central theme is the notion of creation by a god (as described in the book of Genesis), not belief in the Bible as a whole.
Well I find it strange that you try to mock me off as an idiot (I took it like that at least) if you definition is only your personal view on the matter. And yes I could be more specific and searched for a definition first, but my definition is not that far off.

Quote:
And I see no reason why creationism shouldn't be discussed in schools.
Of course it should be discussed but not as a scientific theory in science class and it should not be used as counter evidence to evolution or disclaimer in any form in scientific education.

I just found a "theses" with direct relevance to my question now. If anyone wants to have a look it can be found here: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...ationism&hl=en
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 01:44   #23
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

It isn't nearly as bad as it appears. In most of my schooling the instructors would try not to step on the toes of the religious people, but still said it was a proven fact, which it is. The 'vast majority' aren't religious to the point of extremism, it's just a bunch of "hicks" from the south that always end up in the media. They've invents quite a few 'myths' that everyone believes without question. Everyone acts as if they know everything about a place 3000 miles away, seeing only what a biased media highlights for them.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 01:45   #24
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Well I find it strange that you try to mock me off as an idiot (I took it like that at least) if you definition is only your personal view on the matter.
It is not. Considering there are alternative views on creationism which do not follow the story as in Genesis (such as those who believe origins of humankind are extraterrestrial), the definition as given by these sites is too specific. Presumably those views aren't mainstream enough to have an impact.
Quote:
And yes I could be more specific and searched for a definition first, but my definition is not that far off.
Your definition missed the mark completely, as it did not have anything to do with the creation or evolution of mankind whatsoever. The definition you gave is more like the definition of christian fundamentalism.
Quote:
Of course it should be discussed but not as a scientific theory in science class and it should not be used as counter evidence to evolution or disclaimer in any form in scientific education.
Why shouldn't it? It all boils down to "science, research, data, biology, anthropology, etc" against "someone made up a bunch of stories 3000 years ago".

It is not any school's duty to tell students what to think or believe. They should simply be educated on the variety of options that are commonly available and be allowed to make up their own mind.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 01:57   #25
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Your definition missed the mark completely, as it did not have anything to do with the creation or evolution of mankind whatsoever. The definition you gave is more like the definition of christian fundamentalism.
If you take the book of genesis literarily you likely read the rest of the bible literarily too. That was my assumption and I should have been more specific. From now on we can use one of the mroe specific definitions.

Quote:
Why shouldn't it? It all boils down to "science, research, data, biology, anthropology, etc" against "someone made up a bunch of stories 3000 years ago".
Be course its not a scientific theory. The book of genesis holds no scientific relevance.

Evolution in science class and creationism in philosophy or teology.

Quote:
It is not any school's duty to tell students what to think or believe. They should simply be educated on the variety of options that are commonly available and be allowed to make up their own mind.
I couldnt agree more.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 02:12   #26
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
The book of genesis holds no scientific relevance.
Nevertheless, it holds a great social relevance, especially in the field of evolution.
Quote:
Evolution in science class and creationism in philosophy or teology.
Isn't that exactly what the creationists are campaigning for? I believe their agenda is to have creationism taught in schools alongside evolutionism, not necessarily in the same class.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 02:23   #27
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Isn't that exactly what the creationists are campaigning for? I believe their agenda is to have creationism taught in schools alongside evolutionism, not necessarily in the same class.
From the thesis I found:

"The current issue: whether or not to include “Creationism” in the public
school curriculum as an alternative explanation to (or instead of) Evolution.
The Kansas State Board of Education has taken a major policy step by
voting last year to delete Evolution from its new state science standards.
Other states may follow suit. In other areas, the issue surfaces in other
ways. In Rochester, New York, for example, a controversy has erupted over
attempts to create a publicly funded charter school that will reportedly
include the teaching of creationism in its science classes. And in
Tangipahoa Parish, Louisiana, the school board has just voted to ask the
U.S. Supreme Court to overturn a lower court ruling that found their anti-
evolution, pro-religion disclaimer in science textbooks to be unconstitutional.
Perhaps not since the Scopes Monkey Trial of the 1920s has so much public
attention been paid to this issue."


Isn’t creationism already a theme in theology and philosophy in American schools? Its only controversial if they want to advocate creationism as an alternative (scientific) theory to evolution.

When I went to school I was taught that God created earth in 7 (6?) days in the classes of religion, and in science class, I was taught about evolution. Not much controversy there.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 02:25   #28
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Arrow Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Phoebe (from friends) "doesn't believe" in evolution (Season 2, Episode 3, The one where Heckles dies).
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 02:27   #29
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
Phoebe (from friends) "doesn't believe" in evolution (Season 2, Episode 3, The one where Heckles dies).
Hehe I remember Ross was "a little" upset about that!
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 03:01   #30
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Exclamation Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Is this a nation wide effort or is it localised to a few states?
It's probably nationwide but it doesn't get much traction in most areas; it's easier to make these changes in states where local school districts have more authority over curriculum. Also, textbook publishers tend to cater to the lowest common denominator and all controversial subjects get excised or watered down over time.
Quote:
And isn’t evolution teached as a theory? It is after all although it is probably the strongest standing theory (of those who cant be proved for obvious reasons) we have today.
When creationists say they want evolution taught as a theory they generally mean they want evidence both for and against evolution presented in the classroom. The problem is agreeing on what constitutes evidence against evolution.
Quote:
Any thoughts of why it seem to have a renaissance recently?
I think it's fueled mostly by the (largely incorrect) perception that religious conservatives now represent a very large block of voters. A myth that both Democrats and Republicans subscribe to for their own purposes.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 03:21   #31
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think it's fueled mostly by the (largely incorrect) perception that religious conservatives now represent a very large block of voters. A myth that both Democrats and Republicans subscribe to for their own purposes.
Of those who actually bother to turn up and vote, yes.
And they often vote as a block, witch do give them power.

Right Winged Evangelical Protestantism is on the rise, not just in the U.S.A, but also in other parts of the world.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 03:29   #32
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

i remember giving out a huge PFffFFfTttttt!! in school everytime they talked about creationism in my theology class and evolution and darwin on my social sciences, psychology, and general science classes

it's almost hard to 'generalize' this topic as school districts all over the US do not have the same imposed curriculums - but most school districts will offer theology and religion, and social and general sciences in public schools
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 03:44   #33
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think it's fueled mostly by the (largely incorrect) perception that religious conservatives now represent a very large block of voters. A myth that both Democrats and Republicans subscribe to for their own purposes.
I personally would be more inclined to put it down to a decline in religion, mainly in the Western world. Religion does still exist of course, but religion is increasingly taking a back seat to science I believe, and the number of those (as a proportion of people) who actively participate in religious practices (to the extent of going to church etc, not holding cultural values that are assosciated with religion) is declining. As a result, it is my belief that it is a self defence mechanism from religious people to try and reassert their significance and influence on the world. Put simply, I think they are scared of their way of life dying out.

However, this is only my personal view and could be wildly off the mark, especially as this thread is related to the US and I am from the UK. The things I have said about the decline of religion I would say are definitely occuring the UK, although in the US, it does appear to me that religion is still a major part of life, though if I remember correctly, it is still declining, and mainly because of the increasing ability of science to explain things that typically were attributed to 'God', e.g. the weather.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:02   #34
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
In fact if religion has lost its hold anywhere it is in the East where many practices we might call religious are more a sort of moral code of conduct and I believe religion is banned in China.
buddhism, taosim, confusianism are very predominant in china, also some parts where islam and roman catholicism are

arab nations, the middle east, and the west parts of asia are a mixture of jewish, islam, buddhism, and christians and the south east is mostly buddhism with small parts of islamic, and the only catholic nation, the philippines
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:06   #35
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
France England and Germany all have majority Christian populations (This is a guess) even if they are a little jaded.
This point is somewhat misleading. I myself am classed as being christian I believe, however, I am a complete atheist. Congregation numbers are down, of that I am certain, and that is a better way to tell than any population statistics, as the UK is technically a christian society, but it doesn't mean that it is full of christians. People I know that actually believe in a god are in a small minority, and from talking to others about religion, it would appear similar for them.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:08   #36
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Oh, and as for the East, I think if anything, religion there is probably increasing, or likely to increase due to the increasingly accepted Asian Values debate.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:09   #37
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
buddhism, taosim, confusianism are very predominant in china, also some parts where islam and roman catholicism are
Many do not call those religions, rather a "way of life", i.e something to seperate them from a belief in a deity.

Therefore i'm not sure they are relevant as an example to Toccata's initial point.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:11   #38
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

A more general definition of creationism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:13   #39
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
There's no evidence of decline of religion in the West. Sure of you live in a large city it seems like religion has less of a hold and sure in North East Europe there is a lot of secularism..
I'd say that there is objective evidence at least in western europe.

declining church attendance, declining registered number of christians (census etc.), a change in culture that has become far more satirical (in the UK at least) against religion.

However that being said we're talking about christianity here. It's decline might very much be offset by the growth in other religions.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:22   #40
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Is there declining Church attendence? Apparently more people go to Church then watch professional football.

Satire reflects a more free society in some ways, but people take the piss out of politicians and people still let them run the country.

You are correct on your last point, if you consider horroscopes and so forth.
Attendances at Church of England services fell below the one million mark for the first time in the late 1990s

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1043986.stm

The article is interesting itself. Of course to be taken at piece being based on a survey and all...
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 04:27   #41
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Is there declining Church attendence? Apparently more people go to Church then watch professional football.
I take a shit more often than I go for a run, does that mean that I am not constipated? They are completely unrelated issues. If you want to know if it declines, you look at what it was, and what it is, not what it is and what something else is. You may want to take into account percentages of people rather than sheer numbers as populations are growing in many cases (however the UK is a pretty good example of this as its population is pretty much static - and church attendance is decreasing relevant to previous church attendance).
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 08:08   #42
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

I personally blame the internet. I've only met a handful of people in real-life who didn't believe that evolution explained how current species came about but every third or fourth person on the internet appears to be a fundamentalist spastic.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 08:19   #43
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Sometimes I don't particularly like you lot.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 08:31   #44
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

I don't think anyone would have a problem if "creationists" (and you know what I mean) argued in a coherent manner and were intellectually honest. Most, unfortunately, are not. Or more frequent actually misunderstand the opposing argument to the point where debate becomes impossible (or at the very least, frustrating).
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 10:03   #45
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
I think both groups exist, actually.

There are those that doubt the whole "primordial ooze" thing, claiming that the chance for the first micro-organism to evolve is so small that it cannot account for the creation of life. I'm not well versed enough in biology to explain it fully, and properly, but that is pretty much the gist of it.

The second group claims that everything does evolve, including humans, but that the rate of evolution in humans so far surpasses that of other living creatures (sharks and crocodiles, for example, having changed very little over the course of millions of years), that the theory of evolution cannot be applied. Especially as the theory states that evolution happens most quickly, or drastically, or whatever, in a small secluded group - which primates were not.

Additionally, they point out how the evolution from monkey to man makes little sense; there would be very little evolutionary need for monkeys to stop climbing in trees and start running around on two legs on a mass scale, being notably slower and much more vulnerable to predators. There are a few other points which they touch on, such as the quite rapid increase of brain capacity in the whole monkey-man business.

They do have some points which seem valid, but as I said, I know quite little of biology and as such can't form an expert opinion on it.
Evolution means all branches of life, and all mutations of those are given a chance to survive. Crocs havent chanced much because they don't need to as they are perfectly adapt in their environment. Some monkeys may have foraged a little further than previous generations and found new food sources, like say on the ground and so started eating that instead of what it ate before. Slowly over time they adapted and became more at home on the ground and evolved into our ancestors.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 10:05   #46
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Any creationist needs to be taken outside and shot by firing squad. Imbetween aim and fire, the officer should say "Were's your God now?" and laugh.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 10:06   #47
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Rather interstingly for a group who claim the Bible is literal, creationists actually form quite a wide spectrum of different belief groups. I will outline some here:

Young Earth Creationists:

Those who follow the premise that the earth is ca. 6000 years old, that life was all created in 6 literal days, adn the majority of the earth's geological features, including fossil sorting, continental formation and so on are the direct result of the Noachic flood, which was worldwide, and also the "days of pegleg" - an insignificant line in the bible claimed to result in continental formation. their main problems are that their arguments are bullshit.

Old Earth Creationists:

again can be subdivided

(1) quasi literalists, who blur the definitions of words, for example, beasts do not include reptiles hence allowing the formation of reptiles before birds. odd group really.

(2) Day Agers: Those who think that each day represents an epoch, perhaps of millions to billions of years. their main problem is that the fossil record and molecular evidence and cosmological evidence does not agree with their order.

(3) Gap Theorists/repopulationists. Propose a gap between two of the early verses of Genesis of billions of years accounting for geological features. There was life before the rest of genesis, i.e. dinosaurs and so on, but this was pretty much all wiped out before Genesis starts proper. Again they have problems accounting for the lack of population bottlenecks and biodiversity as a whole.

(4) Evolutionary Creationists: believe that God created everything using the standard models of science, i.e. cosmology, evolution etc.


Of course there are variants of these based around whether the flood was global, how much of a hand God had in things, i.e. he might have been directly responsible for abiogenesis, or may have nudged primate evolution in the direction of humans and so on, so the picture becomes even more blurred again, but those are the main groups.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 10:16   #48
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

As for the removal of volution and it's placement in US schools, In General the creationists are far more sophisticated than this. I will for simplicity ignore all the nut-jobs such as kent hovind (www.drdino.com)

Teaching of creationism would be in violation of Church State separation and they know it, so they follow two main tactics:

(1) miseducation of evolutionary theory, such as the "Evolution is just a theory" stickers, which obfuscate the scientific definition of the word theory with the vernacular in an attempt to lessen (perception of) the strength of the theory. Often this is quite easy because most high school teachers don'T know the first thing about science, even the science teachers, and so it is easy to push this through. Furthermore, the education bodies are full of creationists who push it through.

(2) Proposal of alternate ideas. Now in principle this sounds good, that'S what science is, right? However what are the ideas? Well there are two main thrusts, quite closely linked

a) Intelligent Design, the main proponents of who are Behe and Dembski. The claim that the evidence points towards an "intelligent designer" rather than evolution. of course it is always a singular intelligent designer, and never a group. there is no explanation as to why this is the case, even though were there evidence it would point to a committee of designers. take a look at the vas deferens, recurrent laryngeal nerve, human Chromosome 2 and so on, and you'll see what I mean. The problem is the lack of any testable predictions at all, and the repeated demolition of their arguments.
b) irreducible complexity: part of ID, the claim that there are structures and metabolic pathways within biological organisms that are Irreducibly complex. This means that the removal of a single part would render the whole thing useless. Examples are the flagellum and mammalian blood clotting system. The problem is that at no time have they ever demonstrated that Irreducibly Complex is synonymous with unevolvable. Indeed the blood clotting system has been shown to be most likely the result of a number of gene duplications and subsequent mutations, and the flagellum derived from a cellular pump. Even Behe's much touted "the mousetrap is irreducibly complex" was pulled apart.

http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 10:22   #49
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't think anyone would have a problem if "creationists" (and you know what I mean) argued in a coherent manner and were intellectually honest. Most, unfortunately, are not. Or more frequent actually misunderstand the opposing argument to the point where debate becomes impossible (or at the very least, frustrating).
that's the core of it. most creationists are idiots. the rest are simply evolutionists who haven't studied the evidence yet.
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Unread 7 Mar 2005, 11:32   #50
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Re: Creatioism vs Evolution in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
II didnt actually look up any definition of creationism before I wrote this but I searched for a few definitions now.
Dictionaries aren't a technical resource, my lad.
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