Planetarion Forums

All Systems Go · 27 Jan 2005, 16:58

On this anniversary of the liberation of the camp the Russian, Israeli, German and French leaders are all there but the President Bush sent Dick Cheney and tony Blair sent Jack Straw. Why are they not there? Surely they could make some type of symbolic gesture especially as their stresses of removing tyrants and allowing people to be free.

skiddy · 27 Jan 2005, 17:00

Because they were busy with more pressing matters, such as expanding the America - Britain empire by toppling legitmate governments and installing their own powers?

Lo Perle

arbondigo · 27 Jan 2005, 17:01

Can't be Perle, this guy can spell

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 17:01

Frankly, I think Putin being there is more shocking than Blair and Bush not.

Marilyn Manson · 27 Jan 2005, 17:04

It doesn't make any actual difference whether Straw or Blair went, other than on a very distant symbolic level, which I doubt most people will be bothered about.

Tactitus · 27 Jan 2005, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

On this anniversary of the liberation of the camp the Russian, Israeli, German and French leaders are all there but the President Bush sent Dick Cheney and tony Blair sent Jack Straw. Why are they not there? Surely they could make some type of symbolic gesture especially as their stresses of removing tyrants and allowing people to be free.

Surely sending Cheney and Straw qualifies as "some type of symbolic gesture"?

skiddy · 27 Jan 2005, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by arbondigo

Can't be Perle, this guy can spell

I don't ever remember stating that this was Perle, I was simply referencing him in my post - a post which was centralised around mocking his previous thread.

Perhaps it was to complex for you.

Marilyn Manson · 27 Jan 2005, 17:39

****ing in the name of.

arbondigo · 27 Jan 2005, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiddy

I don't ever remember stating that this was Perle, I was simply referencing him in my post - a post which was centralised around mocking his previous thread.

Perhaps it was to complex for you.

clearly

All Systems Go · 27 Jan 2005, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Surely sending Cheney and Straw qualifies as "some type of symbolic gesture"?

this was the bare minimum they could do withut getting flamed. I personally find it disgusting that they couldn't take one day out of their schedule to commemorate this evet. I'm not normally one for things of this nature but this really has really touched a nerve with me.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

this was the bare minimum they could do withut getting flamed.

Put1n was like l0l bla1r u n00b

Zar · 27 Jan 2005, 18:17

So tempted to make a comment on Auschwitz...oh so tempted!

Phang · 27 Jan 2005, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

this was the bare minimum they could do withut getting flamed. I personally find it disgusting that they couldn't take one day out of their schedule to commemorate this evet. I'm not normally one for things of this nature but this really has really touched a nerve with me.

blair was at a memorial in britain along with the queen, and bush probably thinks he already pays enough attention to jewish problems by selling them weapons.

JonnyBGood · 27 Jan 2005, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zar

So tempted to make a comment on Auschwitz...oh so tempted!

And then maybe you can back it up with some facts and evidence!

Ninja_spammer · 27 Jan 2005, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

I personally find it disgusting that they couldn't take one day out of their schedule to commemorate this evet. I'm not normally one for things of this nature but this really has really touched a nerve with me.

I imagine this is because they have more important and pressing things to be doing, like running their countries (for better or worse) than paying lip service to the misdeeds of not only another country but of another generation, which frankly most people do not consider to be especially important in regard to their daily lives, I know I dont and I imagine that most of the members of this forum dont either.

Since this was a foreign event, held in a foreign land, for the purpose of (mainly) mourning dead foreigners and remembering the misdeeds of other foreigners then who better to send than the Foreign secretary?

Its almost as if this were a part of his job or something..

Ninja_spammer · 27 Jan 2005, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

And then maybe you can back it up with some facts and evidence!

Oh come on thats hardly fair.

wu_trax · 27 Jan 2005, 18:38

isn't bush and his gang busy setting up a new government or something? they didn't send anyone even remotely important to Davos either.

JonnyBGood · 27 Jan 2005, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer

Oh come on thats hardly fair.

If they can do it over on stormfront zar can do it here.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu_trax

isn't bush and his gang busy setting up a new government or something? they didn't send anyone even remotely important to Davos either.

Davros deserves little from any head of state.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

If they can do it over on stormfront zar can do it here.

Not post on PAGD?

Zar · 27 Jan 2005, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

And then maybe you can back it up with some facts and evidence!

There would be facts, there would be evidence. Its whether you perceive those facts as evidence.

...and because you lot are a bunch of "yes Mr government we'll believe everything you say because your interests are our interests)... you'll disagree with me and call me a nutter

JonnyBGood · 27 Jan 2005, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Not post on PAGD?

Get arrested within six to eight months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zar

...and because you lot are a bunch of "yes Mr government we'll believe everything you say because your interests are our interests)... you'll disagree with me and call me a nutter

This would have made more sense if you'd accused me of being black and uneducated and that's why I'm wrong.

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 18:42

Jack Straw is the foreign secretary. Tony Blair is the first (Prime) minister i.e. his job is to direct the cabinet.

Managers have more important things to do in a company than say stock shelves.

I think Ninja_spammer has the correct attitude to it. Now if he'd sent John Prescott, maybe there's an issue.

Zar · 27 Jan 2005, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

This would have made more sense if you'd accused me of being black and uneducated and that's why I'm wrong.

Oh?!

All Systems Go · 27 Jan 2005, 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumbie

Jack Straw is the foreign secretary. Tony Blair is the first (Prime) minister i.e. his job is to direct the cabinet.

Managers have more important things to do in a company than say stock shelves.

I think Ninja_spammer has the correct attitude to it. Now if he'd sent John Prescott, maybe there's an issue.

the point is the other countries sent their heads of state If tony blair is attending a ceremony in London then he isn't doing too much work

JonnyBGood · 27 Jan 2005, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zar

Oh?!

Really, really.

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

the point is the other countries sent their heads of state If tony blair is attending a ceremony in London then he isn't doing too much work

One could argue that the other heads of state are there because they had nothing better in their schedules.

You can call me blase with my regards towards the anniversary of the holocaust, but I don't think it warrents some huge occasion, just some quiet rememberance. I also think it's just some political posturing, as it always has been of "we care about suffering", which given their day to day movements, I doubt they give it a seconds notice.

JonnyBGood · 27 Jan 2005, 18:59

I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend a book called A Problem From Hell which concerns the inaction of western governments (specifically the USA) in regards to occurances of genocide over the past century. Frankly I'd respect some of our beloved governments a lot more if they acted quicker when these incidents are happening instead of talking about how terrible it is afterwards and how they'll ensure that nothing like this ever happens again (which presumably means they'll never let the nazi party kill jews in europe in the 1940s rather than any broad opposition to ethnic cleansing).

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 19:02

I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend a book called From Hell.

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

(which presumably means they'll never let the nazi party kill jews in europe in the 1940s rather than any broad opposition to ethnic cleansing).

Now that's unfair. The policy is broad enough to include Gypsies.

What I also find interesting is a comment Hitler himself made, "Who remembers the Armenians". Do you?

JonnyBGood · 27 Jan 2005, 19:09

Yes. I don't think I'm particularly representative of the average western citizen though.

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 19:10

Ah, rhetoric doesn't convert well to text :/

Edit: Spelling.

Leshy · 27 Jan 2005, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend a book called From Hell.

Hm, I liked the movie, perchance I should see if I can find me a copy of this book too. And yes, I realise the two, while touching on the same subject, are not the same.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshy

Hm, I liked the movie, perchance I should see if I can find me a copy of this book too. And yes, I realise the two, while touching on the same subject, are not the same.

The film was comparatively shite. The book is in chronological order (using speculation based on the available evidence, with annotations, where applicable) so you always know the identity of the Ripper.

Yahwe · 27 Jan 2005, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

the point is the other countries sent their heads of state If tony blair is attending a ceremony in London then he isn't doing too much work

tony blair isn't head of state....

Vaio · 27 Jan 2005, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

On this anniversary of the liberation of the camp the Russian, Israeli, German and French leaders are all there but the President Bush sent Dick Cheney and tony Blair sent Jack Straw. Why are they not there? Surely they could make some type of symbolic gesture especially as their stresses of removing tyrants and allowing people to be free.

Blair was hanging round with Bono and Bill Gates at Davros's house.

For those who don't know, Davros was the EVIL genius who built the daleks and they are all obviously working together in this new world order malarky, Bono is probably working on the anthem and Gates is supplying the computer systems that will run the slave mines and things.

~Vaio~

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 21:15

Why on earth would you want Bono? He's a dilweed. Maddox says so

Vaio · 27 Jan 2005, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumbie

Why on earth would you want Bono? He's a dilweed. Maddox says so

Maddox is correct. I think it's cause Bono is popular with teh 'young folks' .

~Vaio~

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 21:55

Bill Bailey showed U2 up in his "Part Troll" tour. His Hammersmith Apollo performance was shown on terrestrial TV (one of the BBC channels I think), and he was masterful.

Snurx · 27 Jan 2005, 23:43

It's funny that some of the leaders present are almost fascists themselfs, and some could even be accused of doing, or at least supporting, genoicde themselfs. And, of course, making political gain on for instance anti-fascism when they do jack shit themselfs, or supporting Israel beacause they're the jews when they are also a semi-fascist state, at least a racists and authoritarian sate. Maybe their families have profited hugely on the nazies, or their states, like the Norwegian.

And they do nothing to combat the new fascism that's starting to spread. But then again, neither does the left, beacause theyre all to focused on winning elections or whatever.

Gumbie · 27 Jan 2005, 23:55

I think Isreal would support Isreal because they're the Jews as well... And I'm sure they profited from the nazis. Well other than having their country made for them as payment for losing their loved ones.

But while I agree that this is a lot of political posturing to gloss over their other faults, but I fail to see when people support Isreal "because they're the Jews". People here are supporting the Jews over the great losses they suffered. There isn't some great conspiracy that Jews run the world, and can secure foreign aid through their Jew network.

It's talk like that which brought reprisals and the holocaust on the Jews.

I'm sure there's a hole in my arguement somewhere, but I was trying to work out what the points made actually were. So I'm sorry if I made a point from mis-interpreting you.

Snurx · 28 Jan 2005, 00:01

I agree. I don't hate jews, I don't think jews run the world, and i do support and fight for the rights of jews, just like I do blacks, homosexuals or the pink bear, for that matter.

When I go to a anti-Israelli demo, I'm labeled a anti-semite. That was kinda my point. Israel get support beacause they are the jews, when they are in fact not. One of my old teachers, for instance, a very sweet man, and a jew, hated Israel from his guts, and did not see much difference between Israel and any other violent and oppressive state. He might be wrong, as might be I, but I'm sick of Israel and their supporters using the horrible atrocities and stuff that has happened to jews and others as a excuse for doing horrible things themselfs, and when somebody critizises them they retort with things that are unplesant. I don't like being called a racists or a anti-semite, beacause I'm neither.

Or something.

Cannon_Fodder · 28 Jan 2005, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumbie

Bill Bailey showed U2 up in his "Part Troll" tour. His Hammersmith Apollo performance was shown on terrestrial TV (one of the BBC channels I think), and he was masterful.

Bill Bailey owns, black books is comic genius

but back to the topic, Tony Blair and George Bush should have showed respect and gone, not just as heads of state, but as people who now have good lives because people died for their freedom...

Phang · 28 Jan 2005, 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniborp

Bill Bailey owns, black books is comic genius

which is why 'Monster' is dramatically better than 'Part Troll'.

Cannon_Fodder · 28 Jan 2005, 00:18

part troll is good... but i havent seen monster, what is it?

MrL_JaKiri · 28 Jan 2005, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniborp

Bill Bailey owns, black books is comic genius.

Black Books was written by Dylan Moran (primarily). Why does that make Bailey a genius?

Quote:

but back to the topic, Tony Blair and George Bush should have showed respect and gone, not just as heads of state, but as people who now have good lives because people died for their freedom...

So everyone should have gone, yes?

Gumbie · 28 Jan 2005, 01:06

Should the heads of state go to every memorial for every war every year forever? They can skip what they like, send dignitaries, whatever. The holocaust is not the only Genocide to happen during a time when people were giving their lives so that I might have a better one. It's not that big a deal that Tony didn't go. He went to Remembereance Day did he not?
Or is this just the stirrings of people who don't like Bush and Blair?

Tactitus · 28 Jan 2005, 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumbie

Should the heads of state go to every memorial for every war every year forever?

It's the 60th anniversary (of the liberation of Auschwitz) and they generally do larger commemorations on major anniversaries. The next big one will probably be the 75th anniversary, but at this point there aren't many actual survivors/liberators left, so it's probably the last big anniversary with actual people who where there (for whatever that's worth).

Quote:

They can skip what they like, send dignitaries, whatever. The holocaust is not the only Genocide to happen during a time when people were giving their lives so that I might have a better one.

The holocaust is pretty much the mother of all genocides.

All that aside, however, the only fitting commemoration of Auschwitz is to ensure that it never happens again.

Ninja_spammer · 28 Jan 2005, 10:22

Tony Blair is not a head of State, he is the elected leader of our goverment, you're thinking of the Queen.

Its as if no one reads my posts any more

Jack Straw = Foreign secretary IE he is a big fancy important diplomat, this is the sort of thing you send your best diplomat to, especially if your leader is gearing up to fight a major election battle soon, his party is splitting and he is 3 days from the biggest potential bloodbath in 10 years.

As for Bush, I am not sure as to what his duties are post Inauguration but I imagine they are pretty pressing and again: Biggest bloodbath in 10 years could be just around the corner and he needs to be on hand as the C&C of the US military .

Still at least no one has mentioned how Prince Harry should be there.........

Oh bugger.

JonnyBGood · 28 Jan 2005, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Cheney is Jewish. The Prime Minister attanded a Holocaust event in the UK, see speech on www.pm.gov.uk.

Frankly the whole hypocracy of the thing discusts me.

Hypocrisy. And do you mean that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

Frankly I'd respect some of our beloved governments a lot more if they acted quicker when these incidents are happening instead of talking about how terrible it is afterwards and how they'll ensure that nothing like this ever happens again (which presumably means they'll never let the nazi party kill jews in europe in the 1940s rather than any broad opposition to ethnic cleansing).

or do you have some bizzare communist rant in mind instead?