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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:12   #1
All Systems Go
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Support the troops

Well as my first post here I have decided to post something that is a little out of date. I initially wrote this for an American conservative website whose web address I lost, but I would still like some opinions.

I would like to start by saying that the phrase support our troops, is meaningless. Now, this is not an attack on our troops. I am simply saying that the phrase is so vague as to mean nothing. When you ask do you ‘support our troops’ it is impossible to give an answer other than yes. No-one can say ‘I do not support our troops’ without being met with negative responses. It is the wrong question to ask. Different people have different opinions on what it means. Person A might say that supporting our troops means that when they are sent to fight they have the top equipment and all the protective armour they need. Person B might say that supporting our troops means that we should support the government’s decision to send our troops to war. Now, person A might be anti-war and person B might be pro-war but if you ask both of them ‘do you support our troops?’ both will say yes even though they disagree on what it means, but the issues are then not discussed due to this blanket statement.
If you ask the right questions then you will get a very different picture of those who are anti-war. Personally, I am anti-war, but I am not against the troops or my country. You will find this is the case 99% of the time if not more. I do not believe that the troops should be in Iraq but I am not happy when I see in the news that more troops have died. I disagree with my government’s decision to send our troops to risk their lives in another country.
Despite being against the war I believe the troops should have all the equipment they need. This is why I really dislike questions such as ‘do you support our troops?’ If I was asked ‘Do you support the war? Do you believe troops should be well-equipped?’ and other such questions then you would find that the gap between pro-war and anti-war people is not that large. It would also show that by being against the war and being against the people who decided to go to war it does not mean you are against the troops. It is not a one or another stance. You can be against the war and want the troops to come home safely.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:13   #2
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Re: Support the troops

who asks 'do you support the troops?'

you go to some very strange parties.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:22   #3
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Re: Support the troops

Do you read capmag?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:23   #4
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Re: Support the troops

It basically boils down to 'Do you support our Goverment?'

Any patriot would support their own 'troops' as they are just people doing an assigned task at the end of the day. They have little or no say in the matter.

You've basically presented and answered both sides of the discussion though.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:29   #5
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalon
Any patriot would support their own 'troops' as they are just people doing an assigned task at the end of the day. They have little or no say in the matter.
I'd be reluctant to give anyone support who voluntarily turned off their moral faculties. If you choose to join the army knowing the type of conflicts we are involved in then you have no support from me, nor sympathy if you are injured in combat.

Having said that, I want as few people as possible to be hurt in general, and I'm sure most of the people involved are fairly agreeable.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:36   #6
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalon
It basically boils down to 'Do you support our Goverment?'

Any patriot would support their own 'troops' as they are just people doing an assigned task at the end of the day. They have little or no say in the matter.

You've basically presented and answered both sides of the discussion though.
Like I said this post was originally intended for a conservative American forum, which contained a lot sloganeering and the such. But rather than let it go to waste I decided to see how many people agree/disagree with me.

I do read the occasional capmag article. I used to see the phrase used quite a lot, mostly on Fox News and other American shows. I'm wondering how much this phrase is still used in America. Being from the UK we don't get it as much.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 16:41   #7
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Exclamation Re: Support the troops

The whole purpose of that question is as a tool for moral blackmail, in which instead of a person being asked 'Did you support the war?', which can be simply answered and involves no human dimension, they are asked to give their total support our 'brave boys' who are merely 'doing their jobs', and any sort of deviation from that position is considered a kind of sedition.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:23   #8
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Exclamation Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I used to see the phrase used quite a lot, mostly on Fox News and other American shows. I'm wondering how much this phrase is still used in America. Being from the UK we don't get it as much.
It is used a lot here in the US, but I think most people implicitly accept the idea that 'support the troops' <> 'support the war.' It is probably a backlash to the Vietnam war era, when many people considered that 'support the troops' = 'support the war' (which, ironically, made even less sense then with the majority of combat infantrymen being conscripts).

Overall, it has been a remarkable transformation.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:37   #9
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Re: Support the troops

I don't support our troops.

I would prefer the scenario that the troops were safe here in Britain over them dying - BUT now that they are in Iraq and continue to kill in this illegal war, and the fact that i see Iraqis (even the insurgents) as the innocent people i would prefer if British/American troops died rather than the Iraqis. Purely because every Iraqi death is an innocent one, whereas every British/American death is a deserved one.

NB: Again i reiterate that im not advocating i would like British and American soliders deaths (I'd [b]prefer[/n[ them back in their respective countries not fighting) - BUT id rather they died than the Iraqis.

So to give the troops additional armour is like giving the enemy (the british/american troops) more of an ability to survive and kill the innocent iraqis.

Ideally id rather there be no deaths at all...

..but you already knew how i felt anyway from a previous thread i think

Last edited by Zar; 27 Jan 2005 at 18:20.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:40   #10
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
IPurely because every Iraqi death is an innocent one
I don't really see how you can consider people who use actual proper terrorism as 'innocent'. Is this another of your non sequiturs?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:43   #11
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't really see how you can consider people who use actual proper terrorism as 'innocent'. Is this another of your non sequiturs?
IMO they are defending their country - no matter what means they use to protect it. The fact that they are fighting against foreign invaders who frankly have little right to be there makes them the innocent ones.

They are defending - the British and Americans are attacking. That is the fundamental difference.

Secondly terrorism is a word used by the British and Americans to describe their enemies. What is to say that they themselves arent terrorists? I'm sure those innocents getting killed would consider those countries to be terrorist nations. Should we only accept western opinion?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:43   #12
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
IMO they are defending their country - no matter what means they use to protect it.
How Machiavellian of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
Secondly terrorism is a word used by the British and Americans to describe their enemies. What is to say that they themselves arent terrorists?
I never said they weren't terrorists, although I'm not sure they are by the literal definition of the word.

Are you denying that bombings and assassinations are terrorism?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:48   #13
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Re: Support the troops

the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is what again...

zar, your argument is fatally flawed in that it is estimated that most of the iraqi 'insurgents' are still considered to have come from outside the country, hence, you cant really say that they are defending their homes, can you?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:50   #14
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
How Machiavellian of you.



I never said they weren't terrorists, although I'm not sure they are by the literal definition of the word.

Are you denying that bombings and assassinations are terrorism?
Well yes and no.

Yes because it is the killing of innocents and civilians.

No because in this day and age "terrorist" or "terrorism" seems to be a word abused by the west to describe any of their enemies just because those enemies use non-conventional ways of dealing with their killing.

I suppose the question here is what is a terrorist? A jihad spouting suicide bomber? Or a crazed F16 bomber?

The fact that the word is abused so much is the reason why we might as well ignore it or at least form our own opinions of it, to make them wildly opposing to western conventional thought that the word itself because so meaningless that it self-destructs.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:53   #15
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
Yes because it is the killing of innocents and civilians.
Yes because they're an attempt to enact political change through terror, I think you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
No because in this day and age "terrorist" or "terrorism" seems to be a word abused by the west to describe any of their enemies just because those enemies use non-conventional ways of dealing with their killing.
**** colloquialism. Use the technical definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
I suppose the question here is what is a terrorist? A jihad spouting suicide bomber? Or a crazed F16 bomber?
If the F16 bomber is used to promote ideological or social change through terror, then yes!
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:53   #16
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is what again...

zar, your argument is fatally flawed in that it is estimated that most of the iraqi 'insurgents' are still considered to have come from outside the country, hence, you cant really say that they are defending their homes, can you?
They are defending their lifestyle and their beliefs. Plus the Americans have already declared war on all of them. So it doesn't matter where they come from, they are defending the fact that America shouldn't be anywhere near them.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:55   #17
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
**** colloquialism. Use the technical definition.!
Fine.

Yes, the Insurgents are terrorists.

Yes, the American troops are terrorists.

Yes, the British troops are terrorists.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:55   #18
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
They are defending their lifestyle and their beliefs.
It's quite possible the American soldiers believe that as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
Plus the Americans have already declared war on all of them.
Only figuratively. The US hasn't declared war on anyone since WW2.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:56   #19
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
Yes, the American troops are terrorists.

Yes, the British troops are terrorists.
Only if you believe them to be enacting change by terror, which I think doesn't really apply.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:57   #20
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Re: Support the troops

er, no you cannot simply say that they are defending their belief's, and the americans have declared war on terror, not any ideological stance.

so are you saying that everyone fighting in iraq agains't the coalition is a terrorist then? (and by that i mean the traditional OED sense of the word?)

you argument is so riddled with holes its unbelievable
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:58   #21
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar

No because in this day and age "terrorist" or "terrorism" seems to be a word abused by the west to describe any of their enemies just because those enemies use non-conventional ways of dealing with their killing.
Something had to replace Communist and Communism. You let the people of the world think the risk to their lives from an outside force is negligable. What would all the defence money be spent on? Healthcare, schools, the unemployed? Unthinkable!
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:58   #22
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Only if you believe them to be enacting change by terror, which I think doesn't really apply.
I believe that they are enacting change by terror.

Bombing the country, destroying the infrastructure, raiding peoples homes etc... Yes that is terror
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:01   #23
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
er, no you cannot simply say that they are defending their belief's, and the americans have declared war on terror, not any ideological stance.

so are you saying that everyone fighting in iraq agains't the coalition is a terrorist then? (and by that i mean the traditional OED sense of the word?)
No because you have 2 types of people fighting:

Those who kill coalition troops - these people are defending.

Those who kill innocent civilians (both their own and foreign) and troops - these are the terrorists

(Using adjusted definition after MRLs post)
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:17   #24
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Re: Support the troops

-i directly support the war and the US by fixing, maintaining and directly supervising the operation of multi-billion dollar equipment the US Navy uses.. i represent the "troops" and i tell you this, amidst all the terror and the fact that our ship might be bombed anytime of any day, after working 22 hours of troubleshooting and fixing something, there's nothing better than a random card from a random kid, guy, architect, doctor, nurse, etc., handwritten is your name, and a little note that says, "hang in there, everything will be OK.." or "you are in our prayers everyday.. be safe and come home soon!" i sit down and smile thinking that what i just did probably saved a hundred americans that are back home..

anything that someone else, a neighbor, a friend, or whoever, that will do something really good for you that at least made you smile, directly or however indirect it may be, apply it to your troops, then youd be supporting them
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:34   #25
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
I believe that they are enacting change by terror.

Bombing the country, destroying the infrastructure, raiding peoples homes etc... Yes that is terror
No, that's a side effect, not the method of change. The method of change was to invade the country and capture the head of state.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:41   #26
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
IMO they are defending their country
Against what exactly? If they had been as vigorous in their defence when Saddam Hussein was coming to power, perhaps America wouldnt be there today?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:42   #27
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
-i directly support the war and the US by fixing, maintaining and directly supervising the operation of multi-billion dollar equipment the US Navy uses.
I indirectly hinder the war and the US by getting Her Britannic Majesty's Navy to pay me for drinking whiskey and port (not at the same time, mind).
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:46   #28
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Against what exactly? If they had been as vigorous in their defence when Saddam Hussein was coming to power, perhaps America wouldnt be there today?
A large percentage of Iraqis weren't actually alive when Saddam Hussein seized power. Of course this is a pretty irrelevant argument as zar is big into the concept of collective inheritable guilt.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:49   #29
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Against what exactly
The people attacking the country, presumably.

Quote:
If they had been as vigorous in their defence when Saddam Hussein was coming to power, perhaps America wouldnt be there today?
Please say this is a troll.

Hussein was part of the government since 1968 and president in 1979. What is (say) a 30 year old Iraqi to do today? Work on a time machine?

edit : Damn you JBG.

edit2 : Ignoring the time thing, a proportion of the people fighting the Americans were from groups who would have supported Hussein anyway (or who would have been out of the country). In either case why/what would they be "defending" against Hussein?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:51   #30
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Are you denying that bombings and assassinations are terrorism?

Asymetric warfare, its what happens when one set of combatants massively outnumber,out tech and outgun another tech.

As for 'they are defending their country' how many of the 'insurgents' are of iraq birth or citizenship?

Unless you consider all muslim or middle east countries to be some kind of meta nationstate.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:54   #31
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Re: Support the troops

In fairness to zar he made the point that they are defending a country from foreign aggression.

Personally I dislike commenting on this situation due to the fact we really don't know what the iraqi people want. Ignoring my bizzare hatred of democracy I guess we should wait until after the elections.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:56   #32
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Re: Support the troops

i dont think there is anyone in iraq who i would call a terrorists. there are only occupation troops and 'freedom'* figthers.
* freedom in the sense of freeing iraq from american influence.
i also believe that the us-government is directly responsible, at least in part, for every single death in iraq from the beginning of the invasion until today, because this whole situation was completly predictable.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:00   #33
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
Asymetric warfare, its what happens when one set of combatants massively outnumber,out tech and outgun another tech.
Still terrorism.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:02   #34
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Still terrorism.
... or fighting for freedom.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:02   #35
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
... or fighting for freedom.
Can't it be both?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:04   #36
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Still terrorism.

Weeeeeeeel that would apply to both sides wouldn't it.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:04   #37
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Re: Support the troops

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Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
Weeeeeeeel that would apply to both sides wouldn't it.
I'm getting a supreme sense of deja vu.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:06   #38
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
... or fighting for freedom.
Freedom for whom?


Freedom from what?



Freedom to do what?



For someone who seems to be repelled by people who hold freedom in high regard (You gave me my custom rank fs) your awful quick to be supporting freedom fighters and slow in querying their motives and goals.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:07   #39
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm getting a supreme sense of deja vu.
again, its a glitch in the matrix.. the agents changed something in the matrix so you can be dickmongered ass-inside-out type shit
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:07   #40
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Can't it be both?
it is most of the times, it only depends which 'side' you are on.
to acutally pick a side i guess we all know far too little about what's really going on in iraq.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:08   #41
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
again, its a glitch in the matrix.. the agents changed something in the matrix so you can be dickmongered ass-inside-out type shit
That reference is so fresh!
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:09   #42
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
Freedom for whom?


Freedom from what?



Freedom to do what?



For someone who seems to be repelled by people who hold freedom in high regard (You gave me my custom rank fs) your awful quick to be supporting freedom fighters and slow in querying their motives and goals.
read my other post above. freedom as in free of foreign influence or independent
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:11   #43
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Re: Support the troops

National sovereignty is a piss poor idea if you have any respect for human rights. I'm not even going to bother justifying that statement because I cannot believe how you cannot regard that as a self-evident principle.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:17   #44
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Re: Support the troops

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
National sovereignty is a piss poor idea if you have any respect for human rights. I'm not even going to bother justifying that statement because I cannot believe how you cannot regard that as a self-evident principle.
what human rights? its not like the US or the current 'government' of iraq cares much about them, is it?
if it wasn'T for all these countries who attempted to bring 'freedom' or 'civilisation' or 'the one true god' to the rest of the world and, just for a change, everyone would mind their own buisness the world would be a far better place.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:17   #45
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Re: Support the troops

Is that all foreign influence or just the evil american type.

Cos I doubt the current batch of heroic freedom fighters will just pack their shit up and go home if the americans leave, I very much doubt that.

If American occupation (and their overall influence) were to be withdrawn post haste, how long do you think the Iraqi people could remain independent and free for?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:22   #46
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
what human rights? its not like the US or the current 'government' of iraq cares much about them, is it?
if it wasn'T for all these countries who attempted to bring 'freedom' or 'civilisation' or 'the one true god' to the rest of the world and, just for a change, everyone would mind their own buisness the world would be a far better place.
It cares more about them than Saddam Hussein did. If everyone minded their own business the world would be an appalling place. Good god you cannot be serious?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:27   #47
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
Is that all foreign influence or just the evil american type.

Cos I doubt the current batch of heroic freedom fighters will just pack their shit up and go home if the americans leave, I very much doubt that.

If American occupation (and their overall influence) were to be withdrawn post haste, how long do you think the Iraqi people could remain independent and free for?
do you mean 'free, democratic and respecting human rights'? maybe a week, if at all.
free of foreign influence? hard to say, depends on who manages to gain power, there probably will be civil war and the whole country will fall apart. the shia and kurdish part will somewhat be influenced by iran and the sunni part by some of the countries west of iraq.
but whats the alternative? do you really think that the US can work this out and turn iraq into a western style democracy? i seriously doubt it, the longer they stay the worse things will become.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:31   #48
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
but whats the alternative? do you really think that the US can work this out and turn iraq into a western style democracy? i seriously doubt it, the longer they stay the worse things will become.
It doesn't really matter what we believe. It matters what the Iraqi people want.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:33   #49
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It doesn't really matter what we believe. It matters what the Iraqi people want.
and how do you want to find out what they really want if a large part of them can't vote and another large part doesn't dare to go out of the house?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:43   #50
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Re: Support the troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It cares more about them than Saddam Hussein did.
really? if things stay as they are i wonder for how long

Quote:
If everyone minded their own business the world would be an appalling place. Good god you cannot be serious?
then please, tell me when this whole intervention stuff ever worked out. Vietnam? Afganistan? Iran? Iraq? various south - central american countries?
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