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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 22:36   #101
G.K Zhukov
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Re: Israel

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No, what you have is even more slaughter of innocent people.
First off all the israelis are not innocent, they are guilty of taking someone elses land and subjecting that population for murder, torture and so on.

When both sides have roughly the same ammount of military might, there will be a situation of "mutual assured destruction", aka MAD.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 22:59   #102
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
First off all the israelis are not innocent, they are guilty of taking someone elses land and subjecting that population for murder, torture and so on.
All of them aren't. Some of them are. I sincerely hope you aren't blaming children for the oppression of the palestinians.

Quote:
When both sides have roughly the same ammount of military might, there will be a situation of "mutual assured destruction", aka MAD.
Do you mean peace through MAD (and I do know what it is thank you very much and it's actually Mutually Assured Destruction)? Because that's not a necessary outcome of MAD due to the nature of perception. Your grandiose solutions are just inane. Send all the jews in settlements back to where they came from. Some of them were born there, some of them can't go back home and all of them have put effort into their lives there. Literally tearing everything down and telling them to bugger off home is the sort of proposed solution that allows Zionists to accuse all and sundry of anti-semitism whenever they hear a complaint about Israeli policy or actions. You do your adopted cause more harm than good my friend.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 23:46   #103
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Re: Israel

It's not like Israel have stopped bombing/killing/torturing/harazing the palestians have they?
And those who have come to Israel since 1948, choose to go there. All Israelies, execpt for those who are decendents of the jews who lived there before the planned invasion by settlers, are part of the same project. Take land who belongs to someone else and settle there. If they do not wish to participate, they could have stayed where they were.
Many israelies also have two passports, so they could easily go back. Indeed, the amount of israelies that have two passports says to what extent Israel is a settler nation.

To excuse someone with "that they have put effort into their lives there" is a weird argument. If I kill you, having planned it in full detail over a year, should I get off with it then? Come on JBG, you can do better than that.

And for those who can't go back, then they should live inside Israels 67-borders.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 09:15   #104
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
It's not like Israel have stopped bombing/killing/torturing/harazing the palestians have they?
How is that relevant to what I said?
Quote:
And those who have come to Israel since 1948, choose to go there. All Israelies, execpt for those who are decendents of the jews who lived there before the planned invasion by settlers, are part of the same project.
It's nice to know that not a single Israeli has been born in israel since 1948. I'll have to go to the guinness book of records with that fact.
Quote:
Take land who belongs to someone else and settle there. If they do not wish to participate, they could have stayed where they were.
Oh no wait, some of them were born there! I just clean forgot about them!
Quote:
Many israelies also have two passports, so they could easily go back. Indeed, the amount of israelies that have two passports says to what extent Israel is a settler nation.
I could get two passports if I wanted to. That doesn't mean I'm a settler in ireland.

Quote:
To excuse someone with "that they have put effort into their lives there" is a weird argument. If I kill you, having planned it in full detail over a year, should I get off with it then? Come on JBG, you can do better than that.
No I mean living peacefully.

Quote:
And for those who can't go back, then they should live inside Israels 67-borders.
I agree. And that's precisely what you didn't say originally.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:14   #105
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Question Re: Israel

Zhukov, have you ever driven a London cab for a living?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 13:59   #106
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Re: Israel

Oh god JBG. Ofcourse there has been born people inside Israel (or in the settlements) since -48. And yes, they too can often get a 2nd passport due to their parents.
Removing the settlements and sending back the most loony right-winged people to New York, is Israels responsibility under international law.

The good thing with Israel is that they are weary of getting soldiers killed. It didnt take that many killed in southern lebanon before they backed away, if you remember. Giving some advanced weapons to the palestianians will cause the necearry casualities among israeli soldiers.

Right now Israel doesnt have to behave, as they can do what they want without any cost.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:02   #107
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
sending back the most loony right-winged people to New York, is Israels responsibility under international law.
Can you please link to the Treaty or UN resolution declaring this?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:11   #108
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Re: Israel

Sending people to settle in occupied land is illegal under internation law, in fact every land grab is illegal.
(by sending back loonies to new york Im refering to jewish settlers who seems to have come so recently you can still hear they NY dialect).
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:11   #109
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Oh god JBG. Ofcourse there has been born people inside Israel (or in the settlements) since -48. And yes, they too can often get a 2nd passport due to their parents.
They shouldn't be forced to go back. It's also impractical to send them back. A compromise on the issue is the sensible approach. I'm not supporting keeping the settlements. I'm supporting moving them back into Israel as opposed to some daft concept of "sending them home".
Quote:
Removing the settlements and sending back the most loony right-winged people to New York, is Israels responsibility under international law.
Removing the settlements is their responsibility. However sending them "home" is no more practical then sending them to the moon.
Quote:
The good thing with Israel is that they are weary of getting soldiers killed. It didnt take that many killed in southern lebanon before they backed away, if you remember. Giving some advanced weapons to the palestianians will cause the necearry casualities among israeli soldiers.
That's because they never really claimed lebanon and nobody lived there. People are weary of getting soldiers killed for no cause but if you give the Palestinians advanced weapons they will view themselves as in a fight for their country's very existence. People don't just give up and die when they think that's going to happen.

Quote:
Right now Israel doesnt have to behave, as they can do what they want without any cost.
Well, within reason. They couldn't nuke the gaza strip for example without any cost. Of course this is all entirely irrelevant to my point.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:14   #110
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
(by sending back loonies to new york Im refering to jewish settlers who seems to have come so recently you can still hear they NY dialect).
It's nice to know you've spent so much in Israeli settlements on the west bank.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:41   #111
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Why are you attempting to discuss things rationally with a sub-normally intelligent anti-semite who thinks people who disagree with him are "Fascists"?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:46   #112
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Re: Israel

I like to do four impossible things before breakfast.



I finished the other three at 7am.





I'm pretty hungry now
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:47   #113
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Re: Israel

So sending settlers who have just gotten there home, is a daft solution? Why should Israel's claim that every jew (or who anyone who claim to be one/or has converted) have the right to settle in Israel, while palestianians have no or little rights to the same territory?

Southern Lebanon is part of "Greater Israel", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Irgun1.jpg

Parts of the most extreme zionists view Souther Lebanon as part of Israel, and didnt want IDF to leave.

Israel has the 5th largest standing army or something, with plenty of advanced military hardware and nukes. Right now they can kill palestinians any day, without any cost. New arms is given fro free from the US and most western countries seems to support Israel's "self-defence". So what else do you suggest as a solution for giving Israel an incentive to stop acting like a racist settler-nation?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 14:58   #114
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
So sending settlers who have just gotten there home, is a daft solution?
What do you mean by just got there? Just off the plane? A year in the settlement? Two? These numbers don't exactly make up a vast percentage of settlers.
Quote:
Why should Israel's claim that every jew (or who anyone who claim to be one/or has converted) have the right to settle in Israel, while palestianians have no or little rights to the same territory?
Everyone should have the right to settle everywhere. Practically speaking I'd support Israel having whatever immigration policy they want in exchange for getting out of the west bank.

Quote:
Southern Lebanon is part of "Greater Israel", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Irgun1.jpg
So is Jordan. More reasonably, it's Israel, the west bank and the gaza strip that people are referring to.

Quote:
Parts of the most extreme zionists view Souther Lebanon as part of Israel, and didnt want IDF to leave.
The most extreme zionists don't make up a significant percentage of the Israeli population. Moreover you are going off on a tangent. The point concerned whether or not giving advanced weapons to Palestinians would result in the slaughter of more innocent people.
Quote:
Israel has the 5th largest standing army or something, with plenty of advanced military hardware and nukes. Right now they can kill palestinians any day, without any cost. New arms is given fro free from the US and most western countries seems to support Israel's "self-defence". So what else do you suggest as a solution for giving Israel an incentive to stop acting like a racist settler-nation?
International sanctions backed after a period of between one and five years by the UN forcibly removing anyone in violation of its numerous resolutions concerning illegal settlements on the west bank. Not giving desperately poor and horribly oppressed people ready to lash out more advanced weapons anyways.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 16:06   #115
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Israel has the 5th largest standing army or something,
Israel has the seventh largest standing army in the region (as of 1999), behind Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia). Worldwide, Israel ranks 32nd. (Source)
Quote:
with plenty of advanced military hardware and nukes.
Much of which is useless in asymmetrical warfare.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 16:12   #116
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Re: Israel

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Much of which is useless in asymmetrical warfare.
We should really stop using words like "asymmetrical warfare". All warfare is inherently unbalanced and asymmetrical.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 16:20   #117
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Re: Israel

Your anti-equaliteral prejudice has been noted and a stern warning concerning such disgusting biases will be forwarded to you post-haste.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 16:40   #118
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
We should really stop using words like "asymmetrical warfare". All warfare is inherently unbalanced and asymmetrical.
I think it's a perfectly good term that not only addresses the nature of the conflict but also helps explain why advanced military hardware isn't decisive.

But nitpicking aside my point remains: much of Israel's advanced military hardware and nuclear weapons are useless in their conflict against the Palestinians, regardless of how you want to characterize that conflict.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 16:47   #119
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Re: Israel

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
much of Israel's advanced military hardware and nuclear weapons are useless in their conflict against the Palestinians, regardless of how you want to characterize that conflict.
Pretty useful as a deterrent against the Arab countries though.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 17:25   #120
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
But nitpicking aside my point remains: much of Israel's advanced military hardware and nuclear weapons are useless in their conflict against the Palestinians, regardless of how you want to characterize that conflict.
What, the Israelis clearly out match the Palestinians. Guided missles, advanced tanks, helicopters, body armor, predators (I'm sure they have some), etc.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 18:08   #121
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
When you say useless, you mean defensively, because of course the Palestinians are the ones defending themselves.
When I say useless I mean useless, both defensively and offensively. Their nuclear weapons, their antiaircraft missiles, their long-range cruise missiles, their submarines, etc. All useless for attacking the Palestinians. All useless for defending against Palestinian attacks. In a word, useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Pretty useful as a deterrent against the Arab countries though.
Yes, very useful for that. I think I made it clear that I was referring to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
What, the Israelis clearly out match the Palestinians.
Yes, they clearly do in a conventional military match-up. The IDF can b*tch slap any army the Palestinians can send against them. But the Palestinians know this and aren't likely to send an army. They will instead send suicide bombers and Kassam missiles. Things like:
Quote:
Guided missles, advanced tanks, helicopters, body armor, predators (I'm sure they have some), etc.
aren't very effective against suicide bombers and Kassam rockets.

As for Predators, the Israelis basically invented the UAV.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 19:02   #122
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think it's a perfectly good term that not only addresses the nature of conflict
I fixed your post for you.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 19:49   #123
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Re: Israel

to JBG:

1) Since 1948 Israel has searched the whole word for people who they can fill up Israel and the settlements with, in order to strenghten their claim on the land. There are several sources, but many has litteraly been flown in (like the jews living in ethiopia). Then there are the russian jews, half of whom are considered to be considered to be real jews. Th
e other half just went to Israel in order to avoid living in the former Soviet Union due to its collapse.

The whole Israel project has always been to move people artificially into Israel, weather they have any connection to the place or not.

2) Great. Then give me the keys to your house and invite 20million kurds (they need a state) to Ireland. Then we shall give them money and weapons so they can put you irish in a ghetto. Your only future would be working for the kurds for 1 quid an hour. Would you be happy with that solution?

3) The most extremes, the kahanists, are not many. Not more than 1% of the Israeli population. However, they are facists/nazis who doesnt stop from killing and harrasing palestinians (like Baruch Goldstein). Then there is the extreme (religious) right in terms of how to treat palestinians, including of Likud. That is atleast 20% of the voters.

4) How would you get trough international sancations trough the UN as long as the US can veto? And with what army should the UN remove the settlements?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 21:09   #124
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
1) Since 1948 Israel has searched the whole word for people who they can fill up Israel and the settlements with, in order to strenghten their claim on the land. There are several sources, but many has litteraly been flown in (like the jews living in ethiopia). Then there are the russian jews, half of whom are considered to be considered to be real jews. Th
e other half just went to Israel in order to avoid living in the former Soviet Union due to its collapse.
I'm crying real tears here. This has almost nothing to do with my point. My point concerned people who are born there and who have lived there for an extended, twenty years plus, period of time. Just to let you know 68% of the population of Israel was born there. I don't have exact statistics for the west bank settlements, to be honest I rather doubt there are any.

Quote:
The whole Israel project has always been to move people artificially into Israel, weather they have any connection to the place or not.
IT'S A GRAND CONSPIRACY DESIGNED SOLELY TO ANNOY YOU. QUICK, CALL INTERPOL AND LET THEM KNOW OF THIS SITUATION. I DEMAND YOU CLAIM YOUR REWARD FOR SUCH OUTSTANDING DETECTIVE WORK.

Quote:
2) Great. Then give me the keys to your house and invite 20million kurds (they need a state) to Ireland. Then we shall give them money and weapons so they can put you irish in a ghetto. Your only future would be working for the kurds for 1 quid an hour. Would you be happy with that solution?
What? Are you mentally retarded? I mean settle as in buy property. Not settle as in aggressive takeover.

Quote:
3) The most extremes, the kahanists, are not many. Not more than 1% of the Israeli population. However, they are facists/nazis who doesnt stop from killing and harrasing palestinians (like Baruch Goldstein). Then there is the extreme (religious) right in terms of how to treat palestinians, including of Likud. That is atleast 20% of the voters.
Do you pull these statistics out of your ass? Ignoring this wild and pointless tangent and backtracking slightly are you claiming that 20% of the population of Israel believe in the concept of "greater Israel", including Jordan and southern Lebanon?

Quote:
4) How would you get trough international sancations trough the UN as long as the US can veto? And with what army should the UN remove the settlements?
Oh, we were talking realistic solutions? Sorry but whose tanks and cruise missiles were you going to send to the Palestinians?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:30   #125
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Re: Israel

The history of man is one of one people being ousted by another.

The people who get pushed out usually don't like it. If they have enough power they take it back. If they don't they bitch and moan for the rest of time.

The people who move in often find themselves to be the target of anger on the part of those they have ousted. If they have the power, they resist. Seldom (perhaps never) has one group just said "Oops, sorry about that. I don't know what I was thinking. Here please come back and take over, I just toddle along."

If the Arabs succeed in pushing the Jews into the sea then all of the displaced Jews will be pissed off and short of killing them all (and it has been tried) there will just be a different group pissing and moaning about how they have been treated.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:34   #126
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The history of man
What about women, don't they have a history too? I ****ing hate it when people don't use gender neutral language.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:35   #127
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The history of man is one of one people being ousted by another.
However the future of man may not be.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:53   #128
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
However the future of man may not be.
I wouldn't bet on it.
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 10:35   #129
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm crying real tears here ... What? Are you mentally retarded?
I warned you in advance, you know.
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 10:40   #130
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The history of man is one of one people being ousted by another.
I'm not really sure what sort of practical conclusions we're supposed to draw from this though. Are we saying we shouldn't bother striving for a more just solution?
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 16:13   #131
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Re: Israel

The history of man is actually a history of cooperation and harmony. If it had not been, we would have been eaten by the bigger and better animals.
And even if it is a unjust world today, it does not mean that it have to be.The problem with the middle east is that if you discuss it, the discussion is always distrupted by farright and farleft people who are too sure that they know the truth and have all the answers. I can say that I'm very much against the violence of Israel, and that as a nationstate they have to take more responsibility for their actions. Of course, you cannot judge every Israelli, but more so then you can judge every palestinian, as the Israelli attacks are from a state that they live in (I know there are Israellies who figths for a more just world, but the majority is passive in the onslaught and thus is to a extent guilty) and the Palestinian attacks are done from groups who are not representative of the people. This is changing, with Hamas in power and whatnot, but I do doubt that Hamas will continue, and its splintercells inside Hamas that did the actions, not Hamas as a whole.

My support goes to palestine, as their civillian population is the ones that suffer the most. But I do NOT support either goverment or country, as I see them both as guilty in spreading the violence, playing authoritan and being generally assholes for their own profit.
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 18:16   #132
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Oh, we were talking realistic solutions? Sorry but whose tanks and cruise missiles were you going to send to the Palestinians?

Irans maybe.


You know i dropped out of here a year ago and you were arguing with G.K spazkov about the right of Israel to exist/plight of the Palestinians/Why the moon is made of cheese and tinfoil hats and your still here fighting the same impossible battle.

You can take a horse to water but you cant make it think.


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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 20:55   #133
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Re: Israel

I rather doubt iran has that many working cruise missiles to hand out. Regardless it's still insanely unrealistic. How are you going to move the weapons in without the Israelis blocking them? How can you store them without the Israelis finding them? Who are you going to train how to use them?
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 22:25   #134
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Re: Israel

Ignoring that the whole idea of smuggling in i.e. cruise missiles is as JBG says, "insanely unrealistic"... Who the hell would want an escalation of the conflict that bringing in more weapons would lead to?? You would have to be insane, or Charlton Heston, to want cruise missiles to be flying between the two parties. What do you think Israel's response would be if a cruise missile hit Tel Aviv? an increased urge to negotiate?
They would retaliate in full force and countless more innocent lives would be lost.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 11:37   #135
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I rather doubt iran has that many working cruise missiles to hand out. Regardless it's still insanely unrealistic. How are you going to move the weapons in without the Israelis blocking them? How can you store them without the Israelis finding them? Who are you going to train how to use them?

Well you could give them a copy of battlefield 2 with each one : http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2105341

It was not intended as a serious reply btw.

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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 04:32   #136
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Re: Israel

Palistine is not recognized as a country by Isreal and I am not too sure about the rest of the world if Palistine is recognized as it's own country or not.

Isreal could not exist without support from countries such as the USA. They are intensely aggresive and all attacks against Isreal are met with extreme retaliation.

There will never be peace in the middle east.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 05:35   #137
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Re: Israel

according to this monings news Hamas has promised reprisals on Israeli civilians. I personally expected nothing less from Hamas tbh, taking the gutless way out by targetting civilians
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 12:39   #138
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
according to this monings news Hamas has promised reprisals on Israeli civilians. I personally expected nothing less from Hamas tbh, taking the gutless way out by targetting civilians
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...811307,00.html
Quote:
For the 58,000 residents of Nuseirat, a refugee camp south of Gaza City, life has got very much tougher over recent days as Israel squeezes ordinary Palestinians in an effort to win the release of Corporal Gilad Shalit, who was captured a week ago by Palestinian militias and is thought to be held in a Gaza refugee camp.
Nuseirat not only lost electricity, along with most of the rest of the Gaza Strip, when Israel bombed the territory's power station last Wednesday, but its water supply was all but severed when a bridge carrying the main pipe was blown up by an Israeli jet.
.....
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