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Unread 3 Jun 2009, 11:08   #51
Gate
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

I prefer multitargeting because it gives you more variety in fleet compositions.

You only need 3-4 ships for your fleet, rather than 6. 3-4 ships out of 7-9 gives you at least 2-3 unique, useable fleet compositions for each race. Single targeting gives far fewer.
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Unread 3 Jun 2009, 12:01   #52
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

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Originally Posted by Gary View Post
It is a pity alot of the universe went FI/CO as CR/BS are not bad at all. A basic Lancer + a few BS setup for Etd is perfectly fine for example.

I agree with the posts above to make the races more traditional so more thought goes in to the race pick.
Yes thats perfectly fine

I think one of the main probs with current stats is that the best counter vs fi/co is fi/co, which just means you end up getting more and more fi/co.
If BS/Cr hits fi/co too or some fr/de would reliably beat fi/co it would mean other options are possible too, even if you cant cover stuff in ally def, its still quite handy in gal def and selfcovering.
And then if the uni goes mostly fi/co you have other options than just getting fi/co too. It would be extra good since you'd be building a more rare shipclass, which wouldnt be targetted as much too.
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Unread 3 Jun 2009, 18:29   #53
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

When you got a beetle freezing co with whooping 150% effiency(I think it was) and then shooting at fr's. xan co that is, aka ofc the best fi/co race after emp due to having the cloack... problem was xan was just co basically and short round.

Only killing anti-fi/co de in the game was.. tycoon, a stealing de vs fi/co what could always team up with xan who kill before they steal.. spider was nice.. but it doesn't kill and both of these are slower than fi/co in uni anyways.

Some might say why not terran.. oh well the obvious things:

no cloak
low anti-co initiave in it's fi/co fleet.

etd:
Lancer is just one ship.. and beetles shoot first.

Anyways I blame it all on the resource efficiency of the beetle and it's targetting + locust.. kill ability with that efficient beetle..

The salvage thing didn't help the round either.


edited:

Why not BS/CR... you can't keep your roids with it without a insanely nice galaxy or very focused alliance who has loads and loads of anti-fi/co ships in fi/co class and slots while they roid with cr/bs period.
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Unread 3 Jun 2009, 18:58   #54
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

can you post that in coherent sentences?
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Unread 3 Jun 2009, 19:48   #55
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

made sense to me
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 08:46   #56
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

R32 Stats were skewed not because of personal preference as some have argued, but but the boosted efficiency of CAT in addition to the corrected inits of XAN FI/CO.

IMHO the suggestion that race choice in the round came down to personal preference is rediculous. People play races for tactical advantage -- when a race has stats that remove all tactical advantage nobody plays that race.

TOOT/ASC seemed to have very well coordinated CAT/XAN FI/CO fleets on most raids -- there is NOTHING the raw stats can do about any group seeing a tactical advantage and exploting it.

Having said that, I played XAN because the stats suggested that XAN FI/CO would be potent and well, the whole BP decided to go that way. I've traditionally played ZIK, but with CAT having so many different EMP DE and monstrous efficiency, and the salvage changes coming at the same time stealing quickly became much weaker tactically. Whoever said that the more people pick one race/shipclass combo the stronger that becomes didn't try to attack XAN FI/CO as XAN FI/CO. With so many goin that way it meant one HAD to team with CAT to have any success.

CAT are still FAR too efficient -- Beetle was better at only 150% but with Locust in combo it was a monster. Beetle should never be over 100% at T1. If you would like a case study in over-powered EMP one need look no further than the Spider tho -- Spider was somewhere on the order of 500-600% efficiency at T1. Thats simply too much for any one ships efficiency against anything.

My guess is ETD was avoided like the plague because they couldn't kill-target DE T1 at same ETA in a round that was clearly gonna go heavy on DE fleets. I'm not in favor of dropping ETD -- its a great option to have "a little bit of everything"

I, like many players missed an opportunity to go CR/BS this round -- the Bomber was completely nullified by typically hard TER BS, ETD EMP/KILL BS combo, and XAN low init CR. Had ANYONE actually gone ZIK it might have been useful, but the way it played out anyone that went CR/BS really could have out-roided any losses.

I agree with letting the race choice balance the shipstats -- XAN shouldn't have pods larger than FR, perhaps even only one CR class ship period.

CAT should never have both EMP/KILL in the same shipclass or targetting together (stealing seemed to balance nicely, though the problem with R30 CAT was it was even more efficient than this round).

TER shouldn't have FI/CO pods and should have hard DE/CR/BS.

ZIK needs to be able to somehow target every class and have at least 2 kill ships (Brigand actually would have worked great if not completely overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of different DE). If EMP over-efficiency is addressed ZIK will become attractive again. ETD should have "a bit of everything", but IMHO having EMP and cloaked in the same class and sharing a target over-loads the power of that.

ETD should have higher init (than CAT in same class) and softer EMP ships that can pair with steal at same ETA, or kill in-gal only. I'd like to see the return of an ETA 9 anti FI/CO ship in one or two races to make in-gal def a factor again.

As for the idea of an ETA 7 anti-CR/BS killer -- Banshee and Corsair are already REALLY weak against FR/DE -- one would need so many ships to kill one BS that it would outweigh any advantage unless a new kind of combat were introduced (suicide ship maybe?)

All in all the variety of races is solid and I think it would be a shame to reduce that variety, but the shipstats need to play to the inherent strengths of each race rather than try to give a strength to everyone.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 09:13   #57
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

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Originally Posted by cknight725 View Post
CAT are still FAR too efficient -- Beetle was better at only 150% but with Locust in combo it was a monster. Beetle should never be over 100% at T1. If you would like a case study in over-powered EMP one need look no further than the Spider tho -- Spider was somewhere on the order of 500-600% efficiency at T1. Thats simply too much for any one ships efficiency against anything.

CAT should never have both EMP/KILL in the same shipclass or targetting together (stealing seemed to balance nicely, though the problem with R30 CAT was it was even more efficient than this round).
A few things to point out about cat 1st, the spider's efficiancy was between 130-158% on T1, it was banshees being a reletively smaller part of people's fleet than their co that made them a problem for xans.
only 100% at T1!! pretty shocking, can I point out that the phantom this round was 100% on T1 on the banshee, and there were many other killships that were around 100% on some of the things they targeted, you would be negating emps main advantage, which is that they are cost effective.
As for the kill/emp not being in the same class, if you have your low emp efficiency and this then cat would be totally unplayable. I personally don't see anything wrong with it even after this round, the locust was somewhat strange in being the only thing that targeted cat co without being empd 1st, I have not heard many complaints about the scorpion.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:18   #58
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

Bring back the old zik stats no losses for stealing :d
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 17:06   #59
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
The outcome of the round obviously depends massively on player choice.


The more players that go FI/CO, the better FI/CO is. The more players go CR/BS, the better CR/BS is. FR/DE is generally self regulating (since FR/DE fleets often target FI/CO/CR/BS leaving an anti FR/DE defence fleet)

What I think I've learned from this round is that there needs to be a very good anti FI/CO ship, particularly something that'll deal with xands. A defensive killship that fires at the same init (albeit maybe less efficient than last round's harpy), or non-xand FR/DE that shoot first. (The beetle's t2 was also a disastrous idea)

This help reduce public perception of the power of FI/CO and should improve balance.
Gate. Stop trying to defend your incompetence in making stats. All the rounds you made stats were horribly inbalanced.

What you should have learned from this round (and especially the pa team) that you shouldn't be making stats.

Apart from that, I totally agree with some of the posts above. For godssake who cares about changing stats. Everyone I talk to don't even want new stats every round. Improve them slightly from the round before and spend more time in getting more new people in. (Like getting a decent looking portal).
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 20:29   #60
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

The thing is, I feel that for PA to succeed and continue to bring in new players and retain old players, the ship and race stats need to be normalized. As each round ends and a new one begins, tweaks should be made to the stats to remove imbalances and provide a solid gaming foundation. From there, the developers can focus on improving PA itself by building out its framework to provide new and improved features and bringing it to new audiences.

Successful games don't introduce drastic changes to mechanics every couple of months. They tend to improve upon themselves via minor modifications to the stats that drive the game, and as a result, make the game enjoyable. If something is overpowered, they tweak it down. If something is underpowered, they'll tweak it up. If something is exploitable so that it causes an imbalance, they remove/fix the exploit.

Each race should be just as equally capable of having a successful round as any other race. The ability to have a wildly successful round should be relative to your knowledge of tactics and teamwork, not to your fleet's absurd ability to overpower everything in its path.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 20:54   #61
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

When determining stats, it would make sense that things are weighted against each other. For example, a ship's init would be proportional to its armor. The lower the init, the lower the armor. The higher the init, the higher the armor. Likewise, damage would be inversely proportional to armor. The higher you raise a ships damage, the lower its armor goes. The lower the ships damage, the higher you can raise the armor. In the end though, the ship stats could probably be generated from a well thought out formula such that the ship stats all come out relatively on-par with each other.
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Unread 16 Jun 2009, 01:54   #62
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks stats shouldn't change each round, but rather, be 'tweaked'.
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Unread 16 Jun 2009, 10:27   #63
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks stats shouldn't change each round, but rather, be 'tweaked'.
Full agreement from my side, I think somewhere on PS is a 2 year old post of mine advocating exactly this.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 11:51   #64
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

Looking at the race choices so far this round, it appears we are going to have a very immense Cat CO fleets again as well as Cat CR. I'm seeing Xan chosen extremely low this time, with Etd/Zik/Xan relatively equal right now. Lets see how this round pans out, but right now it appears that the stats weren't thought out well enough yet again and we'll see an overpowered Cat race dominating the round. Lets hope I'm proven wrong seeing as the round has not even started yet so this is all hypothetical.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 12:28   #65
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

Whether something is overpowered is not based on how many people pick it.

There's a significant number of people playing last round.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 21:27   #66
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

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Whether something is overpowered is not based on how many people pick it.
It's not, however

1) Cath Co can't hit Cath Co, so they'll hit the other races.
2) More Caths mean the other races will be spread across those, ie less incs on Caths.

This could have a significant impact.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 22:04   #67
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
It's not, however

1) Cath Co can't hit Cath Co, so they'll hit the other races.
2) More Caths mean the other races will be spread across those, ie less incs on Caths.

This could have a significant impact.
Well, the problem is, since Cath do not kill they are everyone's favourite target. Bigger Caths will probably also hit smaller caths - because "it's easy roids". Being EMP based is exactly the reason why Cath should never be able to hit themselves and attract more incoming most of the time.
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 02:15   #68
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Re: A plea to the developers of PA

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
It's not, however

1) Cath Co can't hit Cath Co, so they'll hit the other races.
2) More Caths mean the other races will be spread across those, ie less incs on Caths.

This could have a significant impact.

How is it that Cath CO cannot hit Cath CO now?

http://game.planetarion.com/manual.p...661&page=stats

The way I see these the guy that treats CATH as a better version of XAN and builds tons of Locust is gonna do just fine and can hit CATH all day long. The Beetle is finally a reasonably efficient ship with a balanced init/EMP effectiveness. I'm curious to see ihow many build nothing but Viper, Locust, Mosquito and Tarantulas late. Its great to finally see some calcs where an attack fleet with 2:1 numbers doesn't get EMP'd down at ETA 1.

I hope everyone goes CAT -- it will be a target rich environment.
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