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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:03   #1
Kargool
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Alliance size

This long round have brought ahead a few very interesting facts about alliance size, activity, and playability for smaller alliances. In the Creators hour the following was said about this:
Quote:
CH_Bot> (Q 27): <wade> can we reduce alliance numbers for next round. 100 is too much with so few numbers. there is soo much defending at the mo!
<zPeti> I have been talking about this with PATeam, we havnt reached a conclusion yet
<zPeti> but there might be changes
There seem to be another issue for smaller alliances to get through on the bigger ones just because of the shere size of the bigger alliances, thus creating an even more thougher enviroment for the smaller alliances.

Allthough a valid argument allthough has been that everyone wants to play with their mates, surely this round with 100 members has shown that the issues for smaller alliances to make an impact, and to keep going have been more difficult. I would like to hear from Orbit, F-Crew, HR and others, how has it been this round compared to other rounds lets say from r14 to r28
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:07   #2
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Re: Alliance size

100 man allies will stagnate this game and in the end it will be the best 600 players of PA playing each other over and over and over again.

I would like to see 30 man allies personally, but that's something of a pipe dream.

In direct response to your question though - the round has shown us an increase in t5 ally members soloing on our planets and a decrease in the possibility of landing, especially with the huge gals to contend with as well.

I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that the PA team get game advice from people who play for the top allies, who obviously want to get what's best for their own alliance (same as me, I know) but that is not necessarily what is good for the game.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:23   #3
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Re: Alliance size

ok reality check
bringing in a 30 man limit just creates a new approach
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:28   #4
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Re: Alliance size

30 man tags, 20 man galaxies with buddypacks of 5, merge tag and galaxy rankings.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:40   #5
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Re: Alliance size

I would also like to point out that the fact that people will abuse a system more favourable to new players is not a reason to abandon the system - it is a reason to try to find a way to change the way people behave.

Now, I don't have any concrete ideas on how to go about this, but that's the point of a discussion isn't it?
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:50   #6
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Re: Alliance size

This round has seen more players in alliances than any round [not totally free] since about Round 18.
We're looking to drop galaxy sizes next round, and alliance limits slightly, which should rectify these problems. However, the overhead of command structure in alliances and the unwillingness of the majority of the player base to take this on means that larger alliances are generally more favourable
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:52   #7
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Re: Alliance size

@Kenny: Gzambo is correctly pointing out that there is no way to stop numerous 30 man tags banding together into something very similar to the alliances we have today. Which makes a far greater contribution than your latest parable, oh wise one.

@Appoco: Then do something entirely different man. No need to stick to the same formula in every round for God's sake. Show some dynamism, so to speak.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:59   #8
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
However, the overhead of command structure in alliances and the unwillingness of the majority of the player base to take this on means that larger alliances are generally more favourable
I do see your point with this, but the larger alliances become the greater the strain becomes on the HC, surely?
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 22:58   #9
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Re: Alliance size

Kenny, your post in the other thread was a bloody good read but please don't spoil it by wandering around the forums preaching, friendly advice, you aren't a moderator so if you have advice please pm the individual.

Achilles, I actually quite like what you are saying, let's play around with the numbers and see if we can't find a happy medium, i think 30 is too small as i'm with gzambo in thinking it could create another problem but maybe try round with slightly lower ally and gal limits and see how it goes, if it's not enough lower them further the next round, if it's too much we have a starting point to work from.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:24   #10
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Re: Alliance size

Here's what I wrote elsewhere:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I've long been of the opinion that these limits on recruitment do more harm than good.

There are not enough DCs/BCs/HCs to run many more tags than we currently have. In a hierarchal alliance with 50 members, you need 3 HCs, 3 BCs and 5 DCs, for a total of 22% leadership. In a hierarchal alliance with 100 members, you need 3 HCs, 4 BCs and 8 DCs, for a total of 12% leadership.

The smaller the tags, the stricter the recruitment policies, the higher the requirements. In a round with a tag limit of 100 a HC will be more comfortable taking a gamble with a new player than in a round with a tag limit of 50.

People like playing with their friends. If I get kicked from my alliance for being #81 in the alliance, only because the tag limit will be 80 next round, then there is not a high probability that I will be playing at all next round. And if I don't get kicked, despite not fitting in the tag, then the tag limit does not actually affect my alliance, in which case it's useless.
Are you seriously going to suggest that keeping your shitty alliances alive by forcing people out of the alliances they want to be in is in any way good for the game?
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:32   #11
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Re: Alliance size

Then why not remove the alliance limit completely Mz?
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:39   #12
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Re: Alliance size

I am indeed in favour of that.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:42   #13
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Re: Alliance size

I think that would deal with the problem I'm talking about with new players but from another angle.

As well as stagnate the game down to two alliances.

It's simply not viable, and congratulations in advance on your 3,000th post.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:46   #14
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Re: Alliance size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowly View Post
I think that would deal with the problem I'm talking about with new players but from another angle.

As well as stagnate the game down to two alliances.
Except for the fact that when there was no limit this didn't actually happen I'd agree with you.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:46   #15
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Re: Alliance size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
This long round have brought ahead a few very interesting facts about alliance size, activity, and playability for smaller alliances. In the Creators hour the following was said about this:
There seem to be another issue for smaller alliances to get through on the bigger ones just because of the shere size of the bigger alliances, thus creating an even more thougher enviroment for the smaller alliances.
Allthough a valid argument allthough has been that everyone wants to play with their mates, surely this round with 100 members has shown that the issues for smaller alliances to make an impact, and to keep going have been more difficult. I would like to hear from Orbit, F-Crew, HR and others, how has it been this round compared to other rounds lets say from r14 to r28
To me this round has been the suckiest round ever!

The playing field is too much skewed imo. Of course it is to some extent skewed as you have actives, semi actives etc who are spread over the alliances...
But in this situation even if you try you will be mathimatically losing any way: 100 members = 300 fleets vs 50 (active) members = 150 fleets... every attack we send out can be covered by 2 defence fleets, let alone the galaxy defence. On the other side if we get incomings we just have 0,5 fleets per incoming fleet available. Take also into account that the average member has less score and value and the amount of fleets you need to cover is even more increasing. Just an example to prove my point: we sent an fc on a top 4 alli planet... we sent 16 fleets (big fleets for Orbit) It got simply overcovered by 16 fleets of which over 10 planets were bigger than our bigger members.
In teh beginning of the round we did exceptionally well in defence... but after a few hundred ticks we did not stand a chance anymore... that consequently meant that our members were demotivated and meant even worse defence.

Considering attacks I dare to assert that we land 1 out 10 attacks on top 4 alli planets if it is not worse due to sheer outnumbering. This is also due to the size of the galaxies. I really dislike the size of galaxies. Smaller alliances like Orbit don't even try to attack top 20 gals now as next to the above mentioned defence of alliances, huge galaxies mean another source of loads of defencefleets. Orbit used to be a feared attacking machine... this round we have become a laughing matter for those big gals...

Another thing that bugs me is that if someone crashes in a 100 member alliance, it does not even affect them much!
An example: today or yesterday PDMaster crashed: check the impact it had on Asc score... indeed **** ALL!
Compare this to what happens if one of our members crashes or lands badly: we feel it right away.

In sum, in this round it has been about the #, not the skills and qualities imo.
This round we did not even stand a fair chance.
And if this continues next round, I don't even see a reason for small alliances to start playing at all as they only play for **** all, to be cannon fodder to the 100 member (or 90 member) alliances.
This round has been a horrible round for the casual gamer, and maybe even worse for the new players. Speaking for myself: if this format is used next round, I will not be HC-ing as it is not worth it anyways. My 2 cents.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 00:21   #16
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Re: Alliance size

The problems you describe are very serious, and if they are indeed caused by the high tag limits, then something should be done about it.

However, I believe a lot of other factors are involved as well. You mentioned the large galaxies, I think they play a big role in the issue, as well as multi targetting and potentially the high salvage. I'm wondering if the harsh fight for #1 has made people build larger defence fleets, which also certainly wouldn't help you.

Question is though, why don't you team up with another alliance? I've asked Orbit the same question on these here forums and they told me they didn't want to flak for big alliances, which is a reasonable argument, but doesn't explain why there is no South/South cooperation.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:13   #17
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Re: Alliance size

I personally feel its been a multitude of factors for problems this round.

1) Alliance limit is too high and the proposed reduction in r31 to 90 (from 100, with a 60 top scores limit) isnt enough. If you had 12 alliance full up to the limit then yes ok its good. I want to see 30 odd alliances all with similar sized player quantities. If they all start Blocking up, who cares, it means they still lose out on the defence bonus for the ally def (which could be increased to 2 ticks).

2) Galaxy Size is too high, 12-15 max, alliances with 50 planets you can cover each planet to 3-4 waves. This is also to reduce the amount of each ally in a galaxy, as with more poeple you get more fence sitting. As i sure most people are aware that attacking a gal with your own members will in fact effect future galaxy defence of your members in that gal. as a side note buddy packs stay at 5 players.

3) Round Length, I'm not sure the exact length (10 weeks i believe) but this has been a long round. I voted for 8 weeks on that poll, and thats only 2 weeks shorter, I even thinking of only 6 weeks of a round. I completed most of my research weeks ago, and ploding along getting up to 10000 HCT.

4) Scanners, yes its an alternate way to play, but people who want to PLAY the game cant without comprimising their own planet. I left one alliance because of scanner problems, I say bring back the random chance, as per this thread.

5) Points 1 & 2 have adversely contributed to the failings of multi targetting, and not the fact multi targetting exists.

6) Salvage in some battles have been overly high and its easy to cover calls with 1 fleet.

Generally i've really enjoyed the stats this round, maybe a few alterations in hindsight, but overall a pretty nice job. Was a suprise to not see many Terrans in the top 100, especially with all the rage about its CR being overpowered.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:37   #18
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Re: Alliance size

There was quite a long discussion about this in #planetarion tonight, was actually nearly a whole hour long. (I can get it logged up if anyone is interested)

Some good ideas were thrown about, obviously we had people on each side of the fence, some liking the shrink in size, others not liking it. There was even one or two who think it should be reduced even more (myself included).

The main problem I can see, if the shrink is too big, is alliances splitting into two smaller ones rather than one big one and then NAPing with themselves, the example I gave in the channel was New Dawn splitting into "New" and "Dawn" but this was just because it was the easiest name to remember at the time.

What would be nice is possibly bringing in some sort of official "Junior" alliance wing, so you limit an alliance to something like 50 planets, but they have a "Junior" wing that is smaller (lets say half the size of the main one for now). Now stealing an idea from above of increasing alliance defence to -2 eta, this Junior wing could have -1 eta to their main wing and -2 to themselves, and vise-versa. You could also have it that the main wing could donate resources to the Junior, and that you can promote/demote directly. I would even suggest possibly having some sort of fee system so promotions and demotions are not free, and also have a 72 hour/tick ban from each to try to prevent abuse by kicking someone out of one wing and inviting them into the other one. (72 hours is more likely to prevent abuse than anything shorter, and anything longer could be seen as a problem, especially if you accidently kick the wrong person)

A further suggestion would be that under the alliance page itself the Junior wing is included under the main tag, so like how you click on ships to get the description, you could click on a + next to the alliance and see their Junior wing. Also the score count should be seperate, though my opinion is that there shouldn't be a limit on any size/value/score in either wing, that would let a couple of "better" players be in the lower wing in order to be able to guide and teach the others.

I did also have a half idea of bonuses being given to the main alliance that had the best Junior alliance at the end of the round, though I could see that being abused too so would need to be monitored.

Another semi-idea would be to scrap cluster defence bonus entirely, we're never going to get cluster or parallel alliances back, also rather than -1/-2 on the eta, maybe have it that in-ally defence can be multi-tick, possibly 2 ticks, so a single ally could defend against two waves, this would have the knock on effect that people would have to think more when attacking, and you would never know if that guy who's defending the wave in front of you is going to be there your wave until your wave is at eta 1, two problems I can see with this, 1) people attack every other tick to avoid this, and 2) I do admit that this would be harder to code into the game.

The whole root of this idea is basically to try to reduce the size of alliances but at the same time encourage the use of training wings. Quite a few alliances wont use training wings unless they see it as in their favour (why should they when they can just take the best players from the smaller alliances?) and having training wings would mean that people could be introduced into the game by having a friendly "face" and small community to join straight away. At the moment, if you don't know anyone you're thrown into the mix and are basically left to fend for yourself, makes me wonder sometimes how many people start the game and then quit after being attacked because they didn't know what was happening?

A further "semi-idea" would be that new players are randomly put into the training alliances, or even better, have a "new player" alliance which can defend internally, but also that the "proper" alliances can advertise into/recruit from. So an example would be Player 1 joins PA and is put into "New Player Alliance", then alliances X, Y and Z all advertise into this alliance and Player 1 decides that Y would be the best one, they could then find Y in the list and apply to join their training alliance and give the usual "I would be good for you because", but at the same time apply for Z as a secondary.
You could have helper planets in the "New Player Alliance" handing out hints and tips to the newer players, these helper planets could also be part of the big alliances. I could see that last bit working both ways, it would be a good advert for your alliance having new players come in and seeing that "Oh, Alliance G is very helpful, lets see about applying for their training wing" but also having the big alliances not bother helping out as they don't "see the point".
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Last edited by Althalus; 24 Mar 2009 at 02:00. Reason: Another semi-idea.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:48   #19
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Re: Alliance size

If you could put the log into www.pastebin.com and link back here, that'd be great Althalus.

You're not forcing anyone to read it that doesn't want to - but it'd be a nice option to have
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:56   #20
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Re: Alliance size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The problems you describe are very serious, and if they are indeed caused by the high tag limits, then something should be done about it.

However, I believe a lot of other factors are involved as well. You mentioned the large galaxies, I think they play a big role in the issue, as well as multi targetting and potentially the high salvage. I'm wondering if the harsh fight for #1 has made people build larger defence fleets, which also certainly wouldn't help you.

Question is though, why don't you team up with another alliance? I've asked Orbit the same question on these here forums and they told me they didn't want to flak for big alliances, which is a reasonable argument, but doesn't explain why there is no South/South cooperation.
You have a point. Indeed we could have teamed up with an other lower tier alliance. Fair enough.

However, what you refer to is a practical solution for a surfaced problem which in essence should not have been there, at least not in this form.
Teaming up on a top 5 or top10 galaxy is reasonable to expect for an alliance like Orbit. However, that we, an alliance of 66 members, are required to team up with an other lower tier alliance on top 15-35 galaxies is just pure madness imo. Even more, if you consider that we are the "top lower tier alliance" in this round!
In reply to your factors of causality: I think these issues are not caused by *just* the alliance size, nor have I contended that. Indeed, I mentioned the galaxy size as well. I don't know whether the multitargeting is an issue which contributes directly to this issue. It may well be, as focused fleets have become more easily achieved.
Comparing previous rounds versus the current round I assert that we have not encountered these problems in this fashion so far. The larger defence fleets are, I think, more an effect of the alliance size than a cause: It has become so hard for lower tier alliances to roid even 1 planet of a "higher tier" alliance, that the gap has grown inproportionally, i.e. due to game mechanics rather than game play ability.
Thus, I think the alliance size and galaxy size are the main causes of the problems we encountered. Multitargeting might be a(n) (indirect) cause as well, but I am not in the position to draw steady conclusions on that issue.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 02:03   #21
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Re: Alliance size

Personally, I expect that measures countering the excessively large galaxies will improve your situation considerably. I'm hoping they will remove galaxy disbanding completely, and if I have my way, it will be impossible to exile, self-exile or go into c200 for inactivity next round.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 08:40   #22
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm hoping they will remove galaxy disbanding completely, and if I have my way, it will be impossible to exile, self-exile or go into c200 for inactivity next round.
Not next round, but perhaps after that.
Some interesting points about smaller alliances. I hope this will be less of an issue next Round. We might consider drastically dropping limits for a free round, if the alliance infrastructure is up to it. This will further tier the alliances though, and may lose us hundreds of less active players who can't be 'supported'
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 08:50   #23
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Re: Alliance size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Personally, I expect that measures countering the excessively large galaxies will improve your situation considerably. I'm hoping they will remove galaxy disbanding completely, and if I have my way, it will be impossible to exile, self-exile or go into c200 for inactivity next round.
Reducing galaxy size would certainly help smaller member # allies. DLR have found this a real struggle.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 09:56   #24
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
This will further tier the alliances though, and may lose us hundreds of less active players who can't be 'supported'

Do you think those less active players are allowed into alliances in the top 6?

I have a question for the HC of the top 6:

'How many players in your alliance have never played a round of planetarion before?'

Zero, I assume.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 10:06   #25
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Re: Alliance size

I'm not sure Crowly. We might have some, quite possibly several.
But i would have to look through the interviews to be sure.
However, this round we've tightened up the recruitment and have had tougher requirements to knowing people in ND already.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 10:24   #26
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Re: Alliance size

I'm counting 6 new and 11 returning players. These numbers are slightly skewed though, as we have attempted to create galaxies that are as solid as possible, so there weren't a lot of galmates to invite.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 10:39   #27
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Re: Alliance size

I generally argue in favor of removing the tag limit, simply because it's the best marketing move PA can make. In Ascendancy we've simply avoided the issue by not stopping recruiting just because the tag is full. In rounds with the support planet rule, we've simply tried to ensure that if we go over the limit, anyone out of tag doesn't do anything that constitutes 'support'.

That said, there is some appeal to being able to run an alliance that keeps a unified community. It causes a lot less mental anguish than trying to keep fragmented sub-communities in line.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 10:43   #28
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Re: Alliance size

How many people in Asc have never played a round before?
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 10:44   #29
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Re: Alliance size

As mz said, 6 according to what he knows.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 10:51   #30
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Re: Alliance size

Ah, my apologies for missing that.

6 is not a massive number now is it? Do you ever wonder where all the new players will go when our 'shitty little alliances' (as Mz so charmingly put it) go under?

It's going to have to go one way or the other - either completely remove tag limits so that there's no reason not to let anyone into any alliance, or lower the tag limits so that the smaller alliances have a fighting chance.

People speak of strain on the HC being a reason for having larger alliances, yet think nothing of increasing the strain on the HC of the smaller alliances - HC that are quitting being HC hand over fist because of the hugely biased set up of the game, currently.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 13:10   #31
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Re: Alliance size

small alliances and newbies have been overlooked in pa for to long. From reading the changers for next round i cant see that happening next round. Which is a shame coz pete was ment to be doing something to help new people to the game. Only change is 90/60 alliance size which wont make much differance. Who wants to start a small alliance anyway... you need to create a website for attacks/retals/forums/scans and bot which does defence/points/.eff its to much work no wonder most people just join big alliances for an esay life and no new alliances come from other games.
Im hoping Pa team and pete pull there fingers out and do some changers which will help smaller alliances and newbies (non-irc players).
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 19:41   #32
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by tobyy View Post
Who wants to start a small alliance anyway... you need to create a website for attacks/retals/forums/scans and bot which does defence/points/.eff its to much work no wonder most people just join big alliances for an esay life and no new alliances come from other games.
Now days the ingame tools are enough to support a small alliance. Sure they could be improved yet still and I have a few idea's I'm working over before I post. DLR can be a testament to small alliances using ingame tools and still be sucessfull.
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He's a hick. In charge of an alliance. It's like giving the Dukes of Hazzard a tank division to control.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 21:20   #33
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Re: Alliance size

just throwing this idea out there, do away with alliances in their current form, raise galaxy size to 30, raise BP to 10, make "alliances" possible between galaxies with a cap of 2 other galaxies allied to yours at one time, ingame tools available to galaxy alliances with the GCs and ministers being 'HC'. I know some ppl will hate the idea but I think it would be fun to do something different for a round.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 22:39   #34
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Not next round, but perhaps after that.
Some interesting points about smaller alliances. I hope this will be less of an issue next Round. We might consider drastically dropping limits for a free round, if the alliance infrastructure is up to it. This will further tier the alliances though, and may lose us hundreds of less active players who can't be 'supported'
I think in short term this might be the case, but in the long term, you probably would get more people willing to play it as its more competition, more fun and easier to create a "name" for your alliance. I think that the PA team gotta start looking beyond the current crop of players and ask themselves if taking too much care of the current players needs limitates the ability to be appealing to new players.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 01:44   #35
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by asust3k View Post
If you could put the log into www .paste bin.com and link back here, that'd be great Althalus.

You're not forcing anyone to read it that doesn't want to - but it'd be a nice option to have
Here you go asust3k, and anyone else who may be interested. pastebin.com/f2b78cd78 (It can't be a proper link, sorry, apparently I need to have made 15 or more posts first) Reading it through, it surprised me just how many of the ideas already said in this thread were actually discussed during the discussion too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobyy View Post
Who wants to start a small alliance anyway... you need to create a website for attacks/retals/forums/scans and bot which does defence/points/.eff its to much work no wonder most people just join big alliances for an esay life and no new alliances come from other games.
I'm sure the PA team has someone who is good enough at mIRC script or PHP to encode an IRC bot of some sort that includes the tools that you are looking for. PA's own alliance tools may not be perfect but they are better than none, and if PA team themselves introduce a bot they could link it to the built in tools. There is another suggestion, though I doubt it would happen, maybe an alliance could give away their bot? Take out all the alliance only stuff, but still leave in the basic ability for the points and the .eff part.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 01:56   #36
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Re: Alliance size

I m not a fan of hardcoded alliances in the first place, so my views here will be oldskool I spose

If people wish to play somewhere, then they should be able to do so and not be told by someone they cant because there is a given limidt which refrains them from playing with their friends.

In the end big alliances will collapse and lead to other smaller groups, which some of those will grow again before they collapse.

Its like all major empires in world history. I dont see why we need a game mechanics to sort something human nature will sort on its own
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 10:22   #37
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Re: Alliance size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Althalus View Post
I'm sure the PA team has someone who is good enough at mIRC script or PHP to encode an IRC bot of some sort that includes the tools that you are looking for. PA's own alliance tools may not be perfect but they are better than none, and if PA team themselves introduce a bot they could link it to the built in tools. There is another suggestion, though I doubt it would happen, maybe an alliance could give away their bot? Take out all the alliance only stuff, but still leave in the basic ability for the points and the .eff part.
The source code of Ascendancy's bot, Munin, is freely available. I also know of a third-party arbiter that's been floating around on these forums, though I haven't heard anything about it recently. That said, all an alliance needs is a bot and the ingame tools, so I guess it doesn't really matter.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 10:32   #38
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
I think that the PA team gotta start looking beyond the current crop of players and ask themselves if taking too much care of the current players needs limitates the ability to be appealing to new players.
Dead on.

Every single person spamming up these forums (including me) is worth ditching if 4 new players buy accounts in their place. Focus on what's good for new players and ignore the rest.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 15:12   #39
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Re: Alliance size

There shouldn't be a limit on alliance members at all, really. Maybe keep a limit on how many alliance members contribute to alliance score, but that's all. If people don't want to play in alliance X then X should start wondering why people don't want to be there.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 15:14   #40
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by TheGoaT View Post
just throwing this idea out there, do away with alliances in their current form, raise galaxy size to 30, raise BP to 10, make "alliances" possible between galaxies with a cap of 2 other galaxies allied to yours at one time, ingame tools available to galaxy alliances with the GCs and ministers being 'HC'. I know some ppl will hate the idea but I think it would be fun to do something different for a round.
Rather throw away galaxies and implement a sphere-based universe. But nah, that would most likely be a way too big change in PA Team's eyes even though it would solve all the hassle with galaxies, buddy packs, placement of new players and all that shit.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 15:21   #41
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Rather throw away galaxies and implement a sphere-based universe. But nah, that would most likely be a way too big change in PA Team's eyes even though it would solve all the hassle with galaxies, buddy packs, placement of new players and all that shit.
Even of alliances.

(But yeah, I think it's too big a change and that PA would no longer be PA.)
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 17:27   #42
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Even of alliances.
Maybe. But as a measurement for e-penises they might still do in such a sphere shaped universe. Much better than "galaxies" anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
(But yeah, I think it's too big a change and that PA would no longer be PA.)
Actually it would. No matter how one wants to put it, primarily Planetarion is "just" a brand for a science-fiction browser-mmo strategy game. It would be a drastic step, but then again when you work out that certain model simply is not going to work as you want it to, you might as well just throw it away and get a different one.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 18:16   #43
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Maybe. But as a measurement for e-penises they might still do in such a sphere shaped universe. Much better than "galaxies" anyway.
First of all, by sphere shaped universe (surface of a torus would be better, imo, but that's an implementation detail), I'm assuming you mean making geography actually matter, in that it'd take longer to go from 1:1:1 to 9:9:9 than to 1:1:2. If I'm wrong, then the rest of this post is utter bollocks.

In a universe where planets are distributed more or less randomly, alliances would cease to exist as we know them. It would be practically impossible for a planet of alliance X to exist in an area of the universe composes primarily of planets of alliance Y. In such a univere, I don't see how alliances have a role to play at all. Instead, what we'd see is a more cluster alliance based approach, in which people band together in ad-hoc groups only because they happen to have spawned close together.

Considering that the meta-game is much of the reason people keep coming back, I feel this is a bad idea. It would make the game much less cohesive, and while that would make it easier for new players to enter the community, it would also be much easier to leave it. In the long term, I don't think a setup like that is viable.

Instead what we'd be looking at is a setup in which planets are not quite randomly distributed. You would be able to join an alliance at signup, and after approval you'd be put in a sector of the universe with other planets of your alliance. A shuffle at tick 36 could then create a universe in which there are no overly crowded sectors nor completely empty sectors.

It's a very interesting idea, and though I've gone into some depth here, there is still much unchartered territory, if you'll excuse the pun. Things to think about would be how wars would be fought, if planet stealing/destroying/moving should be possible, how safe planets in the center of the sector can support war planets on the borders of sectors, what happens when people sign up a new planet and where they should be put (ideally neither in war zones nor the center of sectors), how people can switch alliance, if they so choose, and the list goes on.

The reason I think this would change PA more than it should is because this is not simply a new way to represent the position of planets, but something that will overturn the entire game. In my opinion, It would be a sequel to PA rather than an expansion.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 18:53   #44
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Re: Alliance size

reducing the alliesize to ex 50 is a good thing as its only affects the def ability the allie have, attacks will be with groups of allies as usual.

politics is gonna be more important too

galsize this round is like r5 all over again sucky sucky 5 bucks, a maxcap at 15 is needed
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 19:03   #45
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Re: Alliance size

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Focus on what's good for new players and ignore the rest.
i would 100% agree with this, had i not seen it go wrong in SWG. they changed the game to attract new players and all the old ones quit. the player base went from ~350k to ~25k.

make stuff attractive for new players, and allow ways to incorporate them. in the end, however, it is how the community as a whole welcomes new players. most galaxies will immediately exile them, while others will guide them, help them to think for themselves, and keep them interested and playing for many rounds.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 19:09   #46
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
i would 100% agree with this, had i not seen it go wrong in SWG. they changed the game to attract new players and all the old ones quit. the player base went from ~350k to ~25k.

make stuff attractive for new players, and allow ways to incorporate them. in the end, however, it is how the community as a whole welcomes new players. most galaxies will immediately exile them, while others will guide them, help them to think for themselves, and keep them interested and playing for many rounds.
This is a lovely post and I didn't know of this example (whilst obviously being horrible for SWG). It restores my faith
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 19:47   #47
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Re: Alliance size

That is just an example of what is obviously not good for either new players or old players, not a refutation of my point.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 20:16   #48
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Re: Alliance size

Crowly, the problem comes in where the new players don't stick around. they go, "ooooh thats pretty," pay for a month (or a round), play for a week or so, then quit. in the short term you gain an influx of revenue, but in the end you lose even more. the old players quit, the new players don't stay around, and then people don't bother to try the game because nobody is playing it!
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 20:25   #49
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Re: Alliance size

I know this, that's why the game needs altering to make it more viable for new players - you're making the same point I am. The old players will continue to leave at the same rate they are now.

So the choice is really between this slow stagnation and death and changing the game to make it more pleasant to new players.

Why is it, do you think, that new players disappear so often?
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 21:06   #50
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Re: Alliance size

its not the game, its the community. if a new player comes to the forums and reads AD (for example), i don't think they will stick around long. its also the first place some go to look for an alliance to play with.

the game itself is fairly simple already if you have a basic education. the protection period is very boring, and the scan thing can be an issue. if galaxies are more apt to mail / use forums / etc to communicate with new players, they can get scans for them and guide their attacks until they are able to fend for themselves. instead, people want 'elite fence galaxies' and immediately ejaculate anyone out that they either don't know, or look new without communicating with them first.

basically, it isn't the game that needs to change - its how current players welcome new players.

the only way the game could improve (not necessarily changing) is through better explanation of quests, the manual, and by adding tutorials for new players. look at the free mmo's coming out now that have picture tutorials for new players. NosTale, PWI, SRO all come to mind. actually, i might talk with appoco and work on something in my spare time.
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