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Unread 22 Feb 2009, 10:31   #1
Heartless
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Alliance Defense Page

I really like that page, it is greatly improving the usual work when doing defense calls. However, there is one major drawback:

When two people are editing at the same time one person overwrites the other persons changes. Since it takes quite long to load the page when there are some def calls on it, this can lead to quite annoying overwrites like marking a covered call as reported again.
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Unread 22 Feb 2009, 12:08   #2
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

What "type" of updating would you like?
Having an update option per def would solve things, but be rather annoying with having to update several calls.
Checkboxes would work as well, but still leaves the option of ppl updating the same calls.
I'm not sure "locking" things down is the best way either, suspect ppl might miss the warning message about someone else updating calls and either leave things "unchanged" or start saying the system is bugged.

So what kind of "system" would be preferred (not limited to the ways i suggested)?
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Unread 22 Feb 2009, 21:55   #3
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Actually I have two ideas in my mind. One would be an AJAX-like system where the page polls the server in a given time amount and updates some of its contents accordingly, and also to use something AJAX based for updating single calls - the page itself is performing pretty bad at most times.

The other would be to keep the defense page as it is and add "hidden" fields for the original call data, which gets compared to the data stored in the db after being submitted. This could then work like a lot of Wiki systems do: When a conflict is detected, it caches the wanted changes, shows the conflict to the user and then leaves it to him to either proceed or cancel.

From a quick guess the first solution would be superior from user-experience, while the second seems easier to implement I guess.
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Unread 23 Feb 2009, 01:17   #4
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Actually I have two ideas in my mind. One would be an AJAX-like system where the page polls the server in a given time amount and updates some of its contents accordingly, and also to use something AJAX based for updating single calls - the page itself is performing pretty bad at most times.
just to see if i understand you correctly, you basically want the page/script to send the updates in "parts" so it updates a few def calls at the time?
IE 50 calls and it updates 5 calls at the time?

And yes i noticed the page loading issues when added a large amount of test data. I've only really glanced at the code yet, but I've found the places causing the "lag" and well see about fixing'em.
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Unread 23 Feb 2009, 16:51   #5
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
just to see if i understand you correctly, you basically want the page/script to send the updates in "parts" so it updates a few def calls at the time?
IE 50 calls and it updates 5 calls at the time?
No, what I mean is that whenever I change the status of a fleet it automatically updates the database entry for that fleet in the background, as well that defense calls comment (even though there might as well just be an 'Update' button right aside the comment field for that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
And yes i noticed the page loading issues when added a large amount of test data. I've only really glanced at the code yet, but I've found the places causing the "lag" and well see about fixing'em.
That's good news right there :-)
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Unread 23 Feb 2009, 20:32   #6
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

A way to get the page faster under heavy incs would also be appriciated
Takes from 1-5mins to load the page when breaching 150++++++++ defcalls
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Unread 26 Feb 2009, 16:30   #7
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

The problem is simple: the interface is bad. Atm it retrieves all the statuses, and then posts all the statuses when you update anything. To fix this, you simply have it post to the server *only updated calls*, rather than re-posting unchanged calls. That way the only over-writes would be the ones that two people changed to different statuses, which would've happened anyway. No AJAX required.
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Unread 26 Feb 2009, 16:40   #8
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Except when two people edit the same status.
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Unread 26 Feb 2009, 17:00   #9
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by tobbe View Post
A way to get the page faster under heavy incs would also be appriciated
Takes from 1-5mins to load the page when breaching 150++++++++ defcalls
This can be really gay. Personally I like the ingame tools so much because it's easy for everyone to update info. But this completely destroys the point of it as with a lot of calls and length page load time I basically have to ask people not to update shit as they'll probably just be writing over what else is done.
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Unread 27 Feb 2009, 18:42   #10
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

i've made some changes that should decrease the loading time of the page, there's some bits left here and there but things should have improved.
so when tomorrows incs start coming in this should hopefully be noticeable.
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Unread 10 Mar 2009, 04:29   #11
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Also i would like to suggest to make the line of calls set to covered green instead of red, if that is possible Would help abit.
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Unread 10 Mar 2009, 06:29   #12
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Maybe if it was possible to "claim" a call, and while a call is claimed only that one person can edit info on it, when he is done, he can 'unclaim' it and it is again open for all to manipulate, or something to that effect?
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Unread 10 Mar 2009, 06:40   #13
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Villeh View Post
Maybe if it was possible to "claim" a call, and while a call is claimed only that one person can edit info on it, when he is done, he can 'unclaim' it and it is again open for all to manipulate, or something to that effect?
i should imagine this system shouldnt be hard to impliment and is an excellent idea
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Unread 10 Mar 2009, 13:49   #14
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

I think a total overhaul of the page is needed.
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Unread 10 Mar 2009, 13:54   #15
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
I think a total overhaul of the page is needed.
It isn't. It's a great system and needs maybe a few minor tweaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Villeh View Post
Maybe if it was possible to "claim" a call, and while a call is claimed only that one person can edit info on it, when he is done, he can 'unclaim' it and it is again open for all to manipulate, or something to that effect?
"claiming" would be great as it allows multiple people to DC at the same time without both doing the same calls etc.
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Unread 10 Mar 2009, 14:51   #16
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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I think a total overhaul of the page is needed.
I think not.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 03:39   #17
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by Villeh View Post
Maybe if it was possible to "claim" a call, and while a call is claimed only that one person can edit info on it, when he is done, he can 'unclaim' it and it is again open for all to manipulate, or something to that effect?
Either that or tick-off boxes for each defcalls, where you select which calls you would like to update when you click "update". Both should be fairly easy to code, i guess!
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 06:24   #18
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by HellKicker View Post
Either that or tick-off boxes for each defcalls, where you select which calls you would like to update when you click "update". Both should be fairly easy to code, i guess!
Does not solve the problem I described.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 11:21   #19
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobbe View Post
Also i would like to suggest to make the line of calls set to covered green instead of red, if that is possible Would help abit.
Indeed, that would be a great feature.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 11:26   #20
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Indeed, that would be a great feature.
Green would be confusing with the def fleets sent. Greying Out is used for fleets that recalled, so maybe use blue or something for calls that are covered.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 12:16   #21
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Does not solve the problem I described.
I assume the speed increases does though, at least partially, right?

Will look at getting it even faster and consider some of the stuff suggested, time permitting.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 12:34   #22
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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I assume the speed increases does though, at least partially, right?

Will look at getting it even faster and consider some of the stuff suggested, time permitting.
No, the speed increase is not really helping the issue either. The page might load faster, but if I keep it opened for 10 minutes before I commit any changes then there's still a 10 minute window in which someone else might have committed changes which could then be overridden by me.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 13:17   #23
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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No, the speed increase is not really helping the issue either. The page might load faster, but if I keep it opened for 10 minutes before I commit any changes then there's still a 10 minute window in which someone else might have committed changes which could then be overridden by me.
that somewhat yours (or anyone doing it) fault though, as you shouldn't really leave pages that several ppl got access to update open without updating it before committing your changes.

Only real ways around that is to "lock" either the whole page or specific entries to a single person, in which case the question is who can override that "lock".

Or we'd need a system that sent both old and new data and compared the sent old data to that stored to see if it was changed since page load and then returned a "conflict" notice.
One problem i see atm with that is that ppl don't really always pay attention to notices and they just think it got updated and complain about it randomly not updating.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 13:20   #24
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

A golden rule of GUI design: Prevent the user from making a mistake. Please see post #3 again.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 14:23   #25
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Does not solve the problem I described.
It would partly solve it, close to more or less imo.

If i mod 1 call after you have modded 10, the tick-off solution would make sure that all my submitted info is ignored except for the single call i chose to mod.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 14:26   #26
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by HellKicker View Post
It would partly solve it, close to more or less imo.

If i mod 1 call after you have modded 10, the tick-off solution would make sure that all my submitted info is ignored except for the single call i chose to mod.
Yeah but what if the other person had ticked exactly the same box? This is essentially the problem that there is, a lack of conflict resolution mechanisms.
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 14:39   #27
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

hmmm
what about checkboxes to update those calls

so u mark the calls u want to be updated only
hit update

and nothing else beeing changed atm by someone else is touched (edit: wow my english is awesome me thinks, let me rephrase, and nothing beeing changed by someone else at this moment, is touched )
(if not 2 dcs handle the same call )
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Unread 11 Mar 2009, 23:18   #28
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
hmmm
what about checkboxes to update those calls

so u mark the calls u want to be updated only
hit update
Explain to me how this is different from my suggestion from yesterday?
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Unread 12 Mar 2009, 02:02   #29
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Villeh View Post
Maybe if it was possible to "claim" a call, and while a call is claimed only that one person can edit info on it, when he is done, he can 'unclaim' it and it is again open for all to manipulate, or something to that effect?
Best option imo.

Covered calls: blue is a good colour

Another idea: to add the possibility to hide calls eta 6 and down, so a dc can focus on incs eta 7 and up. Oh, and also new incomings at top of page instead of below. I like that better, as when there are new calls you have to scroll down first before you see them.

Edit: Cin, good job on defence page in general.
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Unread 12 Mar 2009, 14:48   #30
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by HellKicker View Post
Explain to me how this is different from my suggestion from yesterday?
fs you posted like hundred times in this thread, all 2 lines at max
tell me how someone wouldnt loose the overview of what you actually say

my explanation: i didnt read it

and i second your idea
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 23:25   #31
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Would it be possible to display OETA for defending fleets as well?
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 00:37   #32
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Would it be possible to display OETA for defending fleets as well?
that might be possible yes, assuming you mean "original eta".
also, should it be displayed 2+5 or 7, as in show the prelaunch amount separate form the travel time?
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 01:33   #33
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Something I would like to see introduced to the alliance defence page would be a clickable attacker's coords. or even a possible colum that would show known alliance linked to the ingame intel system, similar to the galaxy page showing intel
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 02:11   #34
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDD View Post
Something I would like to see introduced to the alliance defence page would be a clickable attacker's coords. or even a possible colum that would show known alliance linked to the ingame intel system, similar to the galaxy page showing intel
links on the attackers coords is easy enough, intel system shouldn't be too hard either, i'm more worried about the general speed of the page with that, but will look at it.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 04:59   #35
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

well, honestly i think the clickable coords for the attacker would be enough to sort the intel of it out through the ingame system. It would at least be a good step in the right direction.
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Quote:
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 05:04   #36
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDD View Post
well, honestly i think the clickable coords for the attacker would be enough to sort the intel of it out through the ingame system. It would at least be a good step in the right direction.
those should be there, will see about starting to look at the other things tomorrow, or more like after 1-2 hours of sleep
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 05:42   #37
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

You are my hero Cin .o/
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 10:45   #38
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
that might be possible yes, assuming you mean "original eta".
also, should it be displayed 2+5 or 7, as in show the prelaunch amount separate form the travel time?
I did, and 2+5, if at all possible.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 13:16   #39
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I did, and 2+5, if at all possible.
should be there now
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 14:54   #40
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

So, cin, it really is great to see you doing all that work on improving the page.

But did you also work on the most annoying bug - the overwriting each other's changes problem? I am also fine with having to discuss this in details with you first on why it is _not_ an issue on the user side. Just let me know if you need that sort of argument first.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 15:24   #41
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Thanks.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 15:50   #42
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
So, cin, it really is great to see you doing all that work on improving the page.

But did you also work on the most annoying bug - the overwriting each other's changes problem? I am also fine with having to discuss this in details with you first on why it is _not_ an issue on the user side. Just let me know if you need that sort of argument first.
Most/all of the things i've fixed/changed so far is just simple display stuff.
The overwriting issue isn't that much work either but it's a different kind of change and other things have just gotten precedence, like the issue with "ghost" fleets in the bcalc.

I'll try to look at it today, not sure if it will get added for this round though regardless of when i finish it, we'll just have to see.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 16:31   #43
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
Most/all of the things i've fixed/changed so far is just simple display stuff.
The overwriting issue isn't that much work either but it's a different kind of change and other things have just gotten precedence, like the issue with "ghost" fleets in the bcalc.

I'll try to look at it today, not sure if it will get added for this round though regardless of when i finish it, we'll just have to see.
Thanks for the feedback, if it won't get in this round no harm is done I guess. :-)

It's somewhat critical, so better go safe and give it a test phase before going live. Maybe if it's in for havoc (if there is one, should read that announcement now) so that it can get somewhat tested would be nice to have.
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Unread 27 Mar 2009, 09:11   #44
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

what do normal memebers see if they go to defence page? was thinking DC's could write something there for the ships which are needed?

also if you got incs it would be nice if it displayed your own incoming status
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Unread 27 Mar 2009, 09:16   #45
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Normal members just see all incomings they've reported, the statuses, matching defence fleets, and (I believe) notes of the defence. Will check though
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 18:39   #46
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

could it be put into galaxy status page? so people can see scans / notes and status of galaxy incoming. It would help newbies sooo much as they would be able to know what/were to send if they dont have irc?

also galaxy outgoing could show scans if anybody has done then in galaxy

both ideaas would help people who dont want to use irc or cant
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Unread 3 Apr 2009, 02:41   #47
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

tobyy that would build on this idea that most everyone ignored when i posted it (which also doesn't really contribute anything to this thread since its about the alliance defense page).

keep up the good work.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 20:58   #48
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
links on the attackers coords is easy enough, intel system shouldn't be too hard either, i'm more worried about the general speed of the page with that, but will look at it.
Not sure what the current defence pages look like (since i haven't been playing for quite a while), but with the xVx tools i've experienced similar problems. More and more demands for data while keeping the same limited space, hence i moved quite some data (scans + intel + chatting) to jquery modal windows. Besides keeping more space available, it also helped me reduce the amount of data that needs to be loaded on page load, increasing the overall performance of the page.

Another thing (concerning perhaps the 'covered' call thing); the xVx tools are seperated in two pages. A "current calls" page, showing all active calls that are being handled or still need to be handled. Next to that is a history page where all closed calls (covered / recalled / whatever) are "archived". This keeps the most important page (the current calls one) relatively small in terms of data on it, helping the overall performance again. On a third page members can see all defence information that concerns them (their own gal incoming + the calls they are defending), making it easy for them to find the information they need.
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Unread 13 May 2009, 02:53   #49
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

While we're at it, can I ask: are scans shown on the ally def page meant to be linked to incs by coords instead of planet ID? I only ask because it's somewhat disconcerting clicking on the link to an AU of a Xan attacker, only to find the scan full of Terran ships belong to someone else who previously occupied those coords. Bugfix time!
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Unread 13 May 2009, 16:28   #50
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Re: Alliance Defense Page

Typical, I report an actual bug, and the thread dies.
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