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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 18:50   #1
Koks
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a new way to calculate xp??

"Score = xp*60 + value "
Fair enough i dont see much wrong with that.

"XP = roids capped * 10 * bravery factor"
again fine.. but how about...
(roids capped * 10 * bravery factor) * Stupidity factor

Stupidity factor = (1- ((Value of ships lost - value of ships stole) / Total value of ships sent))

If you lose no ships you get a stupidity factor of 1 and therfore does not affect the current xp formula. The more ships you lose the more xp you lose. stops people crashing for xp since the xp is less, and promotes attcking larger targets for little loss. Something that I believe is more skillfull.

Reading other threads i know people like to slate and rip apart ideas so feel free any ammendments or other sugestions to this would be interesting to hear too.
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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 18:52   #2
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

i like it!
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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 19:00   #3
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

By the end of the round its a bit hard NOT to crash a bit for XP, methinks:P especially on extremely big targets.
Or you organise teamups with 3-5 fleets involved, which means 0 losses but fewer roids also...

Edit: other solution would be if this new formula included the ships killed on the defender's side...
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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 19:03   #4
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

would be an interesting addition to the XP formula.. would this have an effect towards the XP wh*res ?
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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 22:09   #5
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

how about this to calculate XP :

set XP to a value of 0 throughout the round
score = value + xp
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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 22:36   #6
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
how about this to calculate XP :

set XP to a value of 0 throughout the round
score = value + xp

LOL XPwhores would be doomed:P
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Unread 19 Mar 2008, 22:55   #7
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

I think that was the point. But then XP whores aren't "really playing" anyway, are they Smudge!
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 00:08   #8
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

just another sugestion (and open to changes):

Bravery factor = (Value of ships lost - value of ships stole) * (Value of ships emped + Value of ships killed) / Total value of ships sent ^2


This way we would promote better playing, not just XP crashing.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 01:12   #9
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Sorry, that's a stupid idea. Getting stunned is not detrimental to your planet, so why would it be for your score? In fact, this would make Caths fortresses, as EMP ship are then made 4 times more powerful than normal or steal ships.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 01:28   #10
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koks
"

Stupidity factor = (Value of ships lost - value of ships stole) / Total value of ships sent

Ehmm....I think this formula promotes crashing for XP, which I am all in favour for, good job!
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 04:10   #11
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

read the formula again i did the sum wrong :P
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 04:14   #12
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

i forgot to stick the (1 -....) thing in so that its inversed. Sorry! This does not promote crashing lol! its the opposite!
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 12:43   #13
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Sorry, that's a stupid idea. Getting stunned is not detrimental to your planet, so why would it be for your score? In fact, this would make Caths fortresses, as EMP ship are then made 4 times more powerful than normal or steal ships.
Yep, but emp don't kill.

Ok, let's make it like this:

Bravery factor = (1 - (Value of ships lost - value of ships stole)/Total value of ships sent)*(1+(Value of ships emped/4 + Value of ships killed) / Total value of ships sent)

This way, we promote better playing:
- "pure" bashers get less XP;
- XP whores get less XP;

or even:
Bravery factor = (1 - (Value of ships lost - value of ships stole)/Total value of ships sent)*(1 + Value of ships killed / Total value of ships sent)
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 13:35   #14
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

I object to the principle of involving EMP in the xp formula, regardless of how neatly you hide it in the formula.

As for the OP, XP was (in part) introduced so that when people lost their entire fleets, they would not lose all their score as well. This formula undoes that, and as such, I am against implementing it.

[edit] it. implementing it!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 13:56   #15
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

if you lose your entire fleet you deserve to lose all your score. because lets face it. If you keep your score you're only gonne get hit by XP whores anyway.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 14:07   #16
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
if you lose your entire fleet you deserve to lose all your score.
Whether we work from 0 score from xp + value or x score from xp + value is irrelevant. Everyone now gets a bonus on their value which we call score. The absolute difference between people does not change for it.

However, losing all your ships and score has a significant psychological impact, which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the game. The only thing it does do is demoralise people, because let's face it, no one (except Dunkelbier) likes losing everything they built up over the course of several weeks.

Personally, I'm in favour of a no-loss score policy, in which losing roids and ships has zero impact on your score, only on your planet. Salvage would become obsolete (although an good case can be made for keeping it), people would not mind so much to find they lost ships while sleeping, and achievements in the beginning of the round are made more important relative to how much (little) they are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
because lets face it. If you keep your score you're only gonne get hit by XP whores anyway.
And then you lose a few roids, but you keep your score from XP. After that, it's a clean start, since people with few roids, little value and high score are not generally favoured by XP whores.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 20 Mar 2008 at 15:11.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 14:15   #17
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Whether we work from 0 score from xp + value or x score from xp + value is irrelevant. Everyone now gets a bonus on their value which we call score. The absolute difference between people does not change for it.

However, losing all your ships and score has a significant psychological impact, which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the game, as the only thing it does is demoralise people, because let's face it, no one (except Dunkelbier) likes losing everything they built up over the course of several weeks.

Personally, I'm in favour of a no-loss score policy, in which losing roids and ships has zero impact on your score, only on your planet. Salvage would become obsolete (although an good case can be made for keeping it), people would not mind so much to find they lost ships while sleeping, and achievements in the beginning of the round are made more important relative to how much (little) they are now.


And then you lose a few roids, but you keep your score from XP. After that, it's a clean start, since people with few roids, little value and high score are not generally favoured by XP whores.
point taken and well said
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 15:48   #18
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Well, i just made a sugestion, based on the effectiveness of attack fleet, instead of just using fleet loss vs total fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
However, losing all your ships and score has a significant psychological impact, which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the game.
Sorry, but the psychological impact stands wherever you're attacking or defending.

If you get your planet bashed when you "sleep", that's your fault. The same as you can crash your attacking fleet when you "sleep" over your attack (not all people have a decent inet connection, you know?)
And if you have the chance to someone do a defense call to save your planet while you're sleeping, you don't have that chance when you're attacking.

And, besides, for what i've heard, XP whoring was introduced to help the late starters.
So make it available only to late starters and scanners / cov-opers, since those two work on behalf of the alliance. At least, that's what's expected to.

Last edited by lince; 20 Mar 2008 at 16:06.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 17:19   #19
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
As for the OP, XP was (in part) introduced so that when people lost their entire fleets, they would not lose all their score as well. This formula undoes that, and as such, I am against implementing.

I agree.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 17:31   #20
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

well thats just wrong :P
if you lose you lose, you shouldnt be subsideised. Seeing how xp is used, ive played all the rounds (scanning in afew) where xp has been introduced, so i think that stopping people crash thier fleets on purpose is required, and letting people be more skillfull and hit bigger targets pushing those at the top is better. without xp people bash smaller planets for easy roids, so i think the use of xp to reward people to attack bigger is a viable option.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 17:33   #21
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
Sorry, but the psychological impact stands wherever you're attacking or defending.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
If you get your planet bashed when you "sleep", that's your fault. The same as you can crash your attacking fleet when you "sleep" over your attack (not all people have a decent inet connection, you know?)
I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm saying it's not good for the game. I'm saying that creating a less intensive game, in which losing some ships isn't the end of the world is a much smarter move than keeping it (or making it more) hardcore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
And if you have the chance to someone do a defense call to save your planet while you're sleeping, you don't have that chance when you're attacking.
I don't understand what you mean here, could you explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
And, besides, for what i've heard, XP whoring was introduced to help the late starters.
So make it available only to late starters and scanners / cov-opers, since those two work on behalf of the alliance. At least, that's what's expected to.
Abusable, and as far as I know at least partly wrong. Furthermore, I fail to see how this changes anything, as well as what this has to do with the thread.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 18:31   #22
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

I don't want to fight over a nonsense discussion, in my opinion.

But:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
And if you have the chance to someone do a defense call to save your planet while you're sleeping, you don't have that chance when you're attacking.

I don't understand what you mean here, could you explain?
I was talking about salvage; even if you "sleep", you can get your planet saved and, even if you lose ships/score, you gain a bit score with the salvage.
On other hand, if you "sleep" over attack, you crash your fleet, lose the score
and get 0 salvage. (Just for the record: when i refer to "sleep", i refer all the possibilities why you can't get online: work, sleep, inet disconnection, humping your gf/bf/wife/husband, etc)

I think it's unfair in those situations, be it attaking or defending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Abusable, and as far as I know at least partly wrong.
That's what i've heard. One of the purposes of XP was to give a chance to late starters to achieve a decent ranking. If not , i see no use on XP besides the pesky XP whores.

And, yep, it may be abusable. But also the salvage is abusable.

So why not drop both?
And keep the score?
That way you won't drop 1k rankings over 1 night?
But that's also unfair for those getting the hard time on attacks...

Anyway, was just a sugestion, nothing more
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 19:03   #23
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
I was talking about salvage; even if you "sleep", you can get your planet saved and, even if you lose ships/score, you gain a bit score with the salvage.
On other hand, if you "sleep" over attack, you crash your fleet, lose the score
and get 0 salvage. (Just for the record: when i refer to "sleep", i refer all the possibilities why you can't get online: work, sleep, inet disconnection, humping your gf/bf/wife/husband, etc)

I think it's unfair in those situations, be it attaking or defending.
What is unfair, and to whom? I think it's perfectly logical to award salvage in those cases where the possibility exists that the player couldn't get online, and not when the player should have known in advance he would be asleep at the battle tick. But we're veering offtopic again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
That's what i've heard. One of the purposes of XP was to give a chance to late starters to achieve a decent ranking. If not , i see no use on XP besides the pesky XP whores.
I pointed out another use for XP in my previous post. There's also the fact that XP has created a whole new way of playing PA, which is always a good thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
And, yep, it may be abusable. But also the salvage is abusable.

So why not drop both?
And keep the score?
That way you won't drop 1k rankings over 1 night?
But that's also unfair for those getting the hard time on attacks...
I think this is what I suggested in another post in this thread (though it wasn't originally my idea), ie, making score an indicator for how well a planet has done throughout the round, not just how well it's doing at this exact moment.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 20:32   #24
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
... XP was (in part) introduced so that when people lost their entire fleets, they would not lose all their score as well. This formula undoes that, and as such, I am against implementing it.
Changing the Xp you get per attack based on the ships you lost doesn't make you lose more score when you lose all your ships. I like the idea.
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Unread 20 Mar 2008, 20:43   #25
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

You appear to be right, so I guess I am undecided again. What does not change is my opposition to involving EMP in any formula used to calculate XP.
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 00:15   #26
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

People who believe that regularly crashing fleets is profitable really need to get a clue. The score system doesn't work on XP alone, there's a value element to the score. If you lose too many ships it nullifies the xp gains, if not see's you lose score and can hinder you the next night.

You will find alot of people who land and lose most if not all their fleet do not make a gain on that attack, and they didn't actually intend to lose as many ships. Its usually a case of either forgetting to recall, the defending planet puling a fast one with their production or a calculated risk being taken based on what has been deemed to have been sent as defence and what the planet has at base.

All you do by adding ship loss into the formula is you push XP players into the zero loss game of value players and this isnt good for the game as it makes the larger planets more untouchable, reduces the amount of landings people can make (as gains are eroded quicker) and promotes the attacking of weaker players where the zero losses are more likely
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 01:08   #27
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Well, i didn't want to had more "wood" to the fire, so to speak, the infamous XP whoring.

Ok, i agree that the formula i posted could turn Cath into "Large XP Whorers". But my intention was to give a bonus to those that attack based on effectiveness of their fleets whilst dropping the score of large fleets landing on smaller planets, so avoiding the pure bashing.
Thus, even when attacking a bigger planet, you would only get more score if you manage to kill something, so avoiding more XP whoring. Thus, not killing any ship wouldn't change the score gain while losing ships wouldn't get you the max score gain.

But, anyway, i hate Xp whoring. This was just another approach to gain or lose score based on effectiveness.
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Unread 21 Mar 2008, 14:15   #28
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

We should also add that when you lose ships you get punished already because it reduces your tactical choices and growth potential. Anyway, there is a discussion about changing the scoring system already.
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Unread 22 Mar 2008, 08:42   #29
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

if "xp whores" (pff they are the leet ones and dare to attack unlike u all pathetic noobs) crash their fleets constantly... they will end up with no fleet and no later xp gain. So crashing anyones fleet is no win for anyone, except for the defenders, temporary xp boost wont do any good... aslong as the xp comes in score, not in money or something else more "usefull."

I dont see any real issues with the curent system.
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Unread 23 Mar 2008, 05:49   #30
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Re: a new way to calculate xp??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koks
"Score = xp*60 + value "
Fair enough i dont see much wrong with that.

"XP = roids capped * 10 * bravery factor"
again fine.. but how about...
(roids capped * 10 * bravery factor) * Stupidity factor

Stupidity factor = (1- ((Value of ships lost - value of ships stole) / Total value of ships sent))

If you lose no ships you get a stupidity factor of 1 and therfore does not affect the current xp formula. The more ships you lose the more xp you lose. stops people crashing for xp since the xp is less, and promotes attcking larger targets for little loss. Something that I believe is more skillfull.

Reading other threads i know people like to slate and rip apart ideas so feel free any ammendments or other sugestions to this would be interesting to hear too.
No. If ANYTHING it should be some sort of ratio or difference between the ships the defender(s) lost against the ships the attack(s) lost. Why isn't salvage donation to the planet that loses a tick good enough compensation for the defender(s) and loss of a fleet punishment enough for the attacker(s)?
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