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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:20   #51
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Horray for boobies. So a newbie is a person who doesnt like discussions, who doesnt like that someone disagree with his opinions and not always voice them in a polite manner? I have to say you've redefined the newbie alot.
<sarcasm> Yes, ive redefined newbie </sarcasm> and you've managed to read absolutly anything you want into everything i say
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:21   #52
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Yes, ive redefined newbie and you've managed to read absolutly anything you want into everything i say
Yup, I have to say. This is exactly how to walk away from making accusations you cant prove or give a valid reason for.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:22   #53
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Game development has at varies times been attempted in public - most notably probabaly by me. However it becomes far too difficult to manage becuase forusm threads quickly get out of control if fully public. I;d favour a system where people who are inteliigent can get together and discuss ideas in the context of an overall vision and strategy for Planetarion.
Well why not introduce Flyspay!

It will help you manage developers and also us paying customers to submit bugs and or ideas.

Check it out @ http://flyspray.rocks.cc/

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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:22   #54
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Re: [Private] Game development

Don't underestimate the ex-players who still hang around the PA environment.

[12:15] <Kal|sleep> no the community is not the playerbase
[12:15] <Ace> not for the "great" game
[12:15] <Kal|sleep> its also a lot of ex players
[12:15] <Ace> you are soooo lost
[12:15] <Ace> but thats ok
[12:16] <furball> but these ex players would probably return if they saw a wonderful new PA
[12:16] <Ace> bingo
[12:16] <furball> we hang around because we believe in PA
[12:16] <furball> even if we don't want to play r19


A new iteration of the game, rather than just tweaked versions of it, would probably bring a lot of players back. As jer noted, it's the leaders who need to be re-motivated, not the basic players who will play anyway.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:22   #55
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Re: [Private] Game development

what is it that your department actually does chef out of curiosity, if it has been addressed earlier i apologise can you link me to where it answers what i ask
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:26   #56
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Yup, I have to say. This is exactly how to walk away from making accusations you cant prove or give a valid reason for.
Woah woah lets not get over excited here kargool im not walking away.

Right, lets go through my little tale again in a little more detail just in case you wanted to misconstrew what i meant again...

Newbie signs up to the forum.

Makes a post expressing some of his/her opinions.

Gets flamed in a non-constructive way because person x doesnt agree with newbies opinion (as i stated before nothing to do with him/her being a newbie).

Newbie quits for forums.

Right now kargool i think thats pretty clear now isnt it? Maybe it was explained perfectly for you earlier but im sure if you had put your mind to it you could have worked out, something which frankly, is a well known fact. The forums are not newb friendly. At all.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:29   #57
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Woah woah lets not get over excited here kargool im not walking away.

Right, lets go through my little tale again in a little more detail just in case you wanted to misconstrew what i meant again...

Newbie signs up to the forum.

Makes a post expressing some of his/her opinions.

Gets flamed in a non-constructive way because person x doesnt agree with newbies opinion (as i stated before nothing to do with him/her being a newbie).

Newbie quits for forums.

Right now kargool i think thats pretty clear now isnt it? Maybe it was explained perfectly for you earlier but im sure if you had put your mind to it you could have worked out, something which frankly, is a well known fact. The forums are not newb friendly. At all.
Im sorry that people quit the forum just because they dont get a ear for their opinions, but well, I think i can say abit about being flamed, and it really havent stopped me from voicing my opinion. But if they dont got the guts to stand up to their opinions and prefer to walk away from an argument instead of standing up for themselves they dont get anything more than they deserve. But in all honesty Chef, given your alliance background, I wouldnt expect you to understand that.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:29   #58
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
what is it that your department actually does chef out of curiosity, if it has been addressed earlier i apologise can you link me to where it answers what i ask
Well, just to clarify its not actually my department (its kals) im just a deputy

Anyway, The People & Organisation Dept is a kind of Human Resources Department, it produces recruitment guidelines and disciplinary procedures to ensure fair recruitment into the PA Team and fair dismissal and/or hearing of complaints when necessary. Its also kind of responsible for helping everyone work together effectively within the PA Team and trying to mediate when there are disputes between team members when they cant sort it out themselves.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:30   #59
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
#1,#2,#3 are most certinaly not the players - #2 is the players.
I separated them out for veyr good reasons. The community is made up of a lot of players, ex players and other people, its not simply the players. Some of #1 are #2 and may also be #3 but the community is by no means representative of #2.

#5 is biffy and also keef. biffy has the power to veto decisions etc, and as such he needs to be consulted on anything major etc. keef is needed if the changes require signifcant server configuration changes, so he is also important.

#6 they may not care directly, but if for example jolt was making a loss on PA, they wouldn't be keen on any actions that would loose them money. in essence #6 is the blocker to free rounds.

#7 actually you misunderstood, probabaly becuase I wasn;t clear. a #7 may for example be someone you live with - while us making the game more addictive so it please you may make you happy, it might not make your house mate happy.

Now obviously the priorities are quite clear in that some of theese stakeholders are less important than others.

I'd be tempted to priortise as follows:

#6, #2, #3, #1, #5, #4, #7

Actually I'll clarify:

The PA stakeholders are as follows:

#1 Jolt and Simtech owners
#2 current players
#3 future players
#5 Forums community
#5 irc community
#6 Jolt staff who are directly involved with PA
#7 Planetarion staff
#8 People who have conact with customers e.g. relatives and friends

Now clearly not all of theese groups need to be consulted on changes to the game, however their needs do need to be considered when planning changes - often the needs will conince e.g. jolt want's more money, current players want more players. But my point is it is wrong to only consider the voices from one of the two communities.
Ok new list .

Let's kill that one too .

1 Jolt only is happy when PA makes money, with the ideas ppl have it MIGHT turn out to attract new ppl (#3) and returning players aka making them more money.

Biffy we seen a few times ( i saw him mostly in a gal channel when he was in my gal and spoke more to him then then ever before) Keef never seen or heard.

This might sound hard but the forums and irc community (if not playing) are of no intrest to jolt as they use bandwith but are not paying customers.

The only thing important to jolt are the current and future players THEY bring in the money.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:32   #60
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Im sorry that people quit the forum
Firstly, i wasnt blaming you i was making a point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
just because they dont get a ear for their opinions, but well, I think i can say abit about being flamed, and it really havent stopped me from voicing my opinion. But if they dont got the guts to stand up to their opinions and prefer to walk away from an argument instead of standing up for themselves they dont get anything more than they deserve.
Secondly, yes i know you get flamed and i know it doesnt stop you but not everyone is as strong willed as you and just because they arent doesnt mean they arent entitled to an opinion, especially on a product they are paying for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
But in all honesty Chef, given your alliance background, I wouldnt expect you to understand that.
Thirdly, huh? Whats that supposed to mean.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:37   #61
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!

Secondly, yes i know you get flamed and i know it doesnt stop you but not everyone is as strong willed as you and just because they arent doesnt mean they arent entitled to an opinion, especially on a product they are paying for.
Ofc they are entitled to an opinion, but it shouldnt be the PA-Crew's job to hunt down every damn opinion that every damn player has. Its not logical, its not rational and not productive at all. Use theese forums better then. Ask the moderators to be stricter against flaming instead of saying that the forums are a bitch and no-one wants to use it because of all the flaming going on.

After all, its YOU (and the rest of the pa team) who are in charge of the game and if you dont like the attitude on the forums, then DO something about it instead of saying its not newbie friendly. The people on the forums act based upon the given rules they get presented to them on theese forums. Because its not because of the users flaming people that people quit, its because the pa crew has the inability to act upon this said flaming that people dont use it. I dont belive its that bad as you want it to, but then I dare you, start punishing people flaming instead of saying that its bad. ACT instead of just talking...
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:38   #62
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
Ok new list .

Let's kill that one too .

1 Jolt only is happy when PA makes money, with the ideas ppl have it MIGHT turn out to attract new ppl (#3) and returning players aka making them more money.

Biffy we seen a few times ( i saw him mostly in a gal channel when he was in my gal and spoke more to him then then ever before) Keef never seen or heard.

This might sound hard but the forums and irc community (if not playing) are of no intrest to jolt as they use bandwith but are not paying customers.

The only thing important to jolt are the current and future players THEY bring in the money.
Not all stakeholders will be visible to each other. Not all stakeholders dhould be invovled in development. For example the owners stake holder yes only cares about money, so they largly don;t care what we do with the game as long as they get the money they require - however if lets say we wanted to do something that cost them money e.g. an sms service, we would need to present a business case to them. We can't just do everythign ebcuase the community thinks its a good idea etc. The community are however the best plasce to go for ideas and feedback becuase they are vocal, but we must consider the other stakeholders when it comes to actually making the decision.

Maybe saying Planetarion's stakeholders was a mistake - maybe PATeam's stakeholders would have made what I meant clearer.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:40   #63
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Ofc they are entitled to an opinion, but it shouldnt be the PA-Crew's job to hunt down every damn opinion that every damn player has. Its not logical, its not rational and not productive at all. Use theese forums better then. Ask the moderators to be stricter against flaming instead of saying that the forums are a bitch and no-one wants to use it because of all the flaming going on.

After all, its YOU (and the rest of the pa team) who are in charge of the game and if you dont like the attitude on the forums, then DO something about it instead of saying its not newbie friendly. The people on the forums act based upon the given rules they get presented to them on theese forums. Because its not because of the users flaming people that people quit, its because the pa crew has the inability to act upon this said flaming that people dont use it. I dont belive its that bad as you want it to, but then I dare you, start punishing people flaming instead of saying that its bad. ACT instead of just talking...
PA Team is split into departments, the only person who can make a department do something is biffy unless the department head makes the decision to do it. Therefore you cant blame the whole PA Team for any one departments actions.

And would you like to explain the "with your ally background comment" as im a bit baffled by that.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:42   #64
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
PA Team is split into departments, the only person who can make a department do something is biffy unless the department head makes the decision to do it. Therefore you cant blame the whole PA Team for any one departments actions.
Sigh..
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:42   #65
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Re: [Private] Game development

Thats how its supposed to work in theory. in practise there has been deliberate interference from other departments in the way other teams are run, and who are members of those teams; regardless of if they were permitted to or not.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:44   #66
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Sigh..
Good response, definatly worthwhile, congratulations on your creativity and once again, wanna explain your comment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Thats how its supposed to work in theory. in practise there has been interference from other departments in the way other teams are run, and who are members of those teams.
Well yes, thats the way its supposed to work.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:46   #67
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Re: [Private] Game development

im glad you agree, if only certain pateam members were able to realise that instead of meddling for the sake of waving their e-penis around.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:49   #68
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Not all stakeholders will be visible to each other. Not all stakeholders dhould be invovled in development. For example the owners stake holder yes only cares about money, so they largly don;t care what we do with the game as long as they get the money they require - however if lets say we wanted to do something that cost them money e.g. an sms service, we would need to present a business case to them. We can't just do everythign ebcuase the community thinks its a good idea etc. The community are however the best plasce to go for ideas and feedback becuase they are vocal, but we must consider the other stakeholders when it comes to actually making the decision.

Maybe saying Planetarion's stakeholders was a mistake - maybe PATeam's stakeholders would have made what I meant clearer.
Yes that would make it clearer and more locical reading your posts.
PA team is between 2 fires and needs to walk the small line between those 2.

But all I'm saying is IF you setup a reps team of PA players/former players etc and MAKE the cases you will be able to present em if they are a asset to the game.
Ansd a asset to the game makes em more money aka they will like it.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:54   #69
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Re: [Private] Game development

I don't know why we are talking about money when most of the changes needed in the game involve no money whatsoever and infact would simply involve an experienced group of players who probably know the game better than PA team (because they play the game more, and harder) to develop a game that is likely to be superior and fairer and infact would be likely to raise more money for Jolt. Make a good, simple game that is actually quite difficult and the players will come.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:55   #70
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Make a good, simple game that is actually quite difficult and the players will come.
I couldn't agree more - thats one of the key messages that I would like to come out of the vision when its presented.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:58   #71
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I couldn't agree more - thats one of the key messages that I would like to come out of the vision when its presented.

I agree 100% with lokken too.
Kal get the ppl he talks about and start working
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 14:12   #72
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I couldn't agree more - thats one of the key messages that I would like to come out of the vision when its presented.
The problem I see it is that you are overcomplicating things. There are a group of players who simply want to work unobstructed, without interference, they know exactly what they are aiming for and if they were just left for a few weeks to sort out how the game should work, then create a product which can then be coded. People behave as if they are crazy and don't know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing, they can play this game with their eyes shut.

The issue as I see it is that at some point, someone has to sit back and let these players just get on with it.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 14:22   #73
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The problem I see it is that you are overcomplicating things. There are a group of players who simply want to work unobstructed, without interference, they know exactly what they are aiming for and if they were just left for a few weeks to sort out how the game should work, then create a product which can then be coded. People behave as if they are crazy and don't know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing, they can play this game with their eyes shut.

The issue as I see it is that at some point, someone has to sit back and let these players just get on with it.
The crucial thing is they know what they are aiming for, that doesn't mean they know whats best for the game. I'll freely admit that I think several current or ex players have a very good top level ideas for the future.

The other issue is who will actually code it. Jolt will only let NDA's people code. The reason there has been a lack of progress in the game isn't that there has been a lack of ideas, its that there is no one to actually code things. What we need is (and I don't like the phrase) code monkeys, people who are willing to turn a design into reality - if we had people like that then there would have been a passport rounds ago, a well updated portal, redesigned combat, etc.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 14:32   #74
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Re: [Private] Game development

Are Jolt willing to pay something (not necessarily a lot, but more than nothing) for this?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 14:35   #75
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Re: [Private] Game development

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Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Are Jolt willing to pay something (not necessarily a lot, but more than nothing) for this?
They have been in the past if things actually get delivered on time etc. A number of people have been paid to code things over the last couple of years.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 15:41   #76
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal

The other issue is who will actually code it. Jolt will only let NDA's people code. The reason there has been a lack of progress in the game isn't that there has been a lack of ideas, its that there is no one to actually code things
Then perhaps you might want to inform jolt that there is no such person, and that every player in planetarion suffers from the lack of one. Its their responsibility to actively seek out such a person.

If the reasons for not having someone outside the NDA is business related then they might want to realise they are killing their own profit. Just a reminder.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 17:45   #77
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
The other issue is who will actually code it. Jolt will only let NDA's people code. The reason there has been a lack of progress in the game isn't that there has been a lack of ideas, its that there is no one to actually code things. What we need is (and I don't like the phrase) code monkeys, people who are willing to turn a design into reality - if we had people like that then there would have been a passport rounds ago, a well updated portal, redesigned combat, etc.
This would be due to a lack of recruitment? You seem to actively recruit support staff but no other positions.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 18:02   #78
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Re: [Private] Game development

its more important to recruit staff which again can recruit new staff and admins, than someone that can code the game.

it all makes sence....
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 18:42   #79
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
They have been in the past if things actually get delivered on time etc. A number of people have been paid to code things over the last couple of years.
In that case, perhaps it would be a good idea for us to not only make things more transparent, allow members to more effectively make contributions and encourage more discussion between PA team and the (some, any) players..

but also to spend ten minutes writing up a report on what we've looked at, what changes we've planned and why it'd be a good idea to implement them in the very near future. That doesn't sound too hard to me. In fact, I think we could make it all happen for free!
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