In todays news......

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

No dear, the idea is that there is a set of rules agreed upon that just because a few people feel it's a bit of fun cannot be broken.


And what are you talking about? People moaned at spinner from r1 to r10 and they're probably still ringing him up to moan at him for taking out thieves or getting rid of holoroids or downsizing the phoenix or not catching killmark earlier or for allowing r3 to go on so long or...

heya JBG - actually i agree with penalisation (loss of score or resources or both), just think closure is a bit harsh. Rules are there to be enforced, but in a "fuN" element how harsh should that punishment be? Same as a normal round or lesser? I think lesser.

I am not in any alliance and I do not speak on behalf of anyone, but I do believe that common sense is a commodity most overlooked in PA land....

people will always moan - thats the nature of pa... but the difference is he wouldn't have overreacted in havoc. Sure he changed things and people got pissy with him (including me), but Havoc is a different beast to the main game. havoc isn't about a set of rules its about revenge and getting payback!

I don't know, but sometimes people need to get back to the fact of what the ethos was in th first place (that goes for players too).

Build some ships and **** someone!

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Remy

Why is everyone making this so difficult

I have never seen as much whining about closures and Multihunters doing their job as in havoc, and especially now.

How is it possible that all those people complaining and bitching about havoc being fun and not serious, take this multihunting issue so serious. If you REALLY werent taking havoc serious, you would laugh about it.

Maybe you are so serious about it, because you are afraid some MH will catch you farming again. People who do not farm or cheat in any other way, have no reason to complain to begin with.

ITS SIMPLE:

THE EULA does not make a difference between a normal round and havoc. You sign the EULA for the ACCOUNT you create, not for the type of round, or type of game play.

SO: piss off, go play havoc or if you dont like it that you could be caught for your cheating, dont play.

see you assume that I voice my opinion in support of 1up. Never been in it, never really got on with the HC's in an alliance sense and never really given a toss about how well they do.

However when you try and change something as fundamental as what havoc was set up originally for then I care...

Havoc has as much a place as the real round proper. The reasons for playing in Havoc should be for one goal only.... To have a bit of fun.

Some people multiing to gain ranking should be frowned upon, but do not lose sight of why you play havoc.

Put accounts to vacation and let them be raped. Penalise them with resources, ships and asteroids taken away, but for the love of god why close them?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Rumad

heya JBG - actually i agree with penalisation (loss of score or resources or both), just think closure is a bit harsh. Rules are there to be enforced, but in a "fuN" element how harsh should that punishment be? Same as a normal round or lesser? I think lesser.

The EULA would disagree and if someone complained about being closed during the normal round it would be sort of strange to explain "oh this doesn't count just because we don't have an end of round ceremony after this".

people will always moan - thats the nature of pa... but the difference is he wouldn't have overreacted in havoc. Sure he changed things and people got pissy with him (including me), but Havoc is a different beast to the main game. havoc isn't about a set of rules its about revenge and getting payback!

Havoc isn't about something just because you say it is or you think it is or a majority of people think it is. A majority of people can think the main round is about making pigs fly but it doesn't make it so.

[qebab]

The multihunter team's job is to enforce the EULA as I understood it.

When you signed up to the game you agreed to the end user license agreement, and that still stands. If you break it, you have to face the consequenses wether it is midround or havoc. The rules are there for a reason, and it wouldn't make much sense to work under different rules in havoc (and rules that noone knew anything about since noone was told about them).

If the admins suddenly decide that it is okay to multi, accountshare, fleet donate and farm in havoc then people should feel free to do it. Until then, play by the rules, havoc or not. It is that simple.

[K-W]

Imagine if after a football match the owners of the stadium kept the field open so people could play around, they even gave out extra balls to give everyone a chance to kick around, etc.

Then one of those people demands the owners put a ref on the field to keep people from fouling him.

Everyone would laugh at that person for good reason.

This is exactly what havoc is. Even though the round is over, they let the ticks run and give out resources so that people can throw some fleets around. If PA players are really so uptight that they cant handle this, dont have a havoc.

The most rediculous thing that could be done is keeping havoc and asking multihunters to work an extra week so people know that thier meaningless rank was only tainted by resource/roid donations and half the universe going inactive.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The EULA would disagree and if someone complained about being closed during the normal round it would be sort of strange to explain "oh this doesn't count just because we don't have an end of round ceremony after this".

Havoc isn't about something just because you say it is or you think it is or a majority of people think it is. A majority of people can think the main round is about making pigs fly but it doesn't make it so.

EULA is corecty enforced for the main round which people pay for.

Is HAVOC even in the EULA? Round is closed and the cermonies show you when the round end is. I think its pretty clear really where the round ends and havoc starts and as such is probably legally outside the realms of the EULA (contract cessation and all that jazz).

Havoc is what it is. I am not going to give you a history lesson as you will remember just as me the stagnation which happened during rounds which is why HAVOC was introduced.

Your right the majority aren't always right, but in most situations the consensus is all you need...

I think thats how democracy works isn't it?

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by K-W

Imagine if after a football match the owners of the stadium kept the field open so people could play around, they even gave out extra balls to give everyone a chance to kick around, etc.

Then one of those people demands the owners put a ref on the field to keep people from fouling him.

Everyone would laugh at that person for good reason.

This is exactly what havoc is. Even though the round is over, they let the ticks run and give out resources so that people can throw some fleets around. If PA players are really so uptight that they cant handle this, dont have a havoc.

The most rediculous thing that could be done is keeping havoc and asking multihunters to work an extra week so people know that thier meaningless rank was only tainted by donations and half the universe going inactive.

quite correct.

but you assume they can apply common sense. I don't think they can....

[Willzzz]

I think perhaps people are forgetting although Havoc, is what it says 'Havoc' people do still take this seriously. Now, i of course dont think the MH team should hunt as fierce as they ofc do during the main round, but at the same time people shouldnt be allowed to cheat in any state of the game.

The EULA doesnt state how long the rules have to apply for, however surely in the time period from when you signup till the whole game is re-set (meaning from when the main round starts till even havoc ends and the game is completly cosed) the rules SHOULD apply.

And what would be the benefit to allow people to try out cheating methods in havoc? Doesnt that mean they can work on cheating methods for the main round? Cheating is cheating, wheather it is for a speed round, havoc, or of course the main round. The Definition of Havoc is to just bassicaly destroy each other, even your alliance mates and your friends, where you can have wars without being dragged into alliance pollitics. Havoc isnt a door for allowing to experiment with cheating methods.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by K-W

Imagine if after a football match the owners of the stadium kept the field open so people could play around, they even gave out extra balls to give everyone a chance to kick around, etc.

Then one of those people demands the owners put a ref on the field to keep people from fouling him.

Everyone would laugh at that person for good reason.

This is exactly what havoc is.

No it isn't.

Even though the round is over, they let the ticks run and give out resources so that people can throw some fleets around. If PA players are really so uptight that they cant handle this, dont have a havoc.

The most rediculous thing that could be done is keeping havoc and asking multihunters to work an extra week so people know that thier meaningless rank was only tainted by resource/roid donations and half the universe going inactive.

Or they could have a normal PA except with resources given out at the start. Oh no wait that's exactly what they do now.

EULA is corecty enforced for the main round which people pay for.

Is HAVOC even in the EULA? Round is closed and the cermonies show you when the round end is. I think its pretty clear really where the round ends and havoc starts and as such is probably legally outside the realms of the EULA (contract cessation and all that jazz).

No, the EULA is for the account you sign up. As it's the same account, it's the same EULA

Havoc is what it is. I am not going to give you a history lesson as you will remember just as me the stagnation which happened during rounds which is why HAVOC was introduced.

That's why the resources came in. I don't remember them allowing multiing. I don't see how that would make the game more fun.

Your right the majority aren't always right, but in most situations the consensus is all you need...

I think thats how democracy works isn't it?

PA isn't a democracy.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

I think perhaps people are forgetting although Havoc, is what it says 'Havoc' people do still take this seriously. Now, i of course dont think the MH team should hunt as fierce as they ofc do during the main round, but at the same time people shouldnt be allowed to cheat in any state of the game.

The EULA doesnt state how long the rules have to apply for, however surely in the time period from when you signup till the whole game is re-set (meaning from when the main round starts till even havoc ends and the game is completly cosed) the rules SHOULD apply.

And what would be the benefit to allow people to try out cheating methods in havoc? Doesnt that mean they can work on cheating methods for the main round? Cheating is cheating, wheather it is for a speed round, havoc, or of course the main round. The Definition of Havoc is to just bassicaly destroy each other, even your alliance mates and your friends, where you can have wars without being dragged into alliance pollitics. Havoc isnt a door for allowing to experiment with cheating methods.

Who cares if some people take it seriously? Just because they choose to take the goof-off period seriously doesnt mean suddenly it stops being a goof-off period.

Of course the EULA applies, but why on earth should multihunters waste thier time enforcing it during a one week havoc period that counts for nothing and exists SOLEY for people to throw artificially big fleets around?

And when exactly did handing your account details to someone or stealing donated ships become experimental? I would agree with you if there really were a way that cheaters were improving thier cheating during havoc so they could use it in the regular round, but that seems pretty unlikely.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by K-W

Who cares if some people don't take it seriously? Just because they choose to take a serious period as a goof-off doesnt mean suddenly it stops being a serious period..

I fixed your post for you there. Thanks in the mail. (Basically I'm accusing you of horrible levels of circular logic.)

[K-W]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

No it isn't.

Are you kidding me? Yes it is. That is exactly what havoc is and always has been.

Or they could have a normal PA except with resources given out at the start. Oh no wait that's exactly what they do now.

No they dont. There is nothing even remotely normal about letting you keep your planet/ships from the round that ended and giving you one week of fast ticks where there will be no official ranking even without the donations.

Havoc is very obviously not a round of PA, its an unofficial extension of a round that has already ended for the sake of goofing around. Thats why we call it havoc and not a Speed Round or Round 18.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I changed your post so that it fits with my argument that havoc might be a serious round even though it is blatently obvious that it isnt a serious round.

[Willzzz]

Originally Posted by K-W

Who cares if some people take it seriously? Just because they choose to take the goof-off period seriously doesnt mean suddenly it stops being a goof-off period.

Of course the EULA applies, but why on earth should multihunters waste thier time enforcing it during a one week havoc period that counts for nothing and exists SOLEY for people to throw artificially big fleets around?

And when exactly did handing your account details to someone or stealing donated ships become experimental? I would agree with you if there really were a way that cheaters were improving thier cheating during havoc so they could use it in the regular round, but that seems pretty unlikely.

Perhaps i could then turn this around to ask why people are so bothered to argue the case that MHs shouldnt be bothered because its 'Havoc' but people are obviously bothered regarding this issue to argue the case. And when im reffering to experimenting methods, your corrent it isnt experimenting to farm, however, people can use proxies, see how easy it is to farm as well as playing both accounts while one is on a proxie and consider doing it for a main round. As we ofc say its Havoc, so why do people need to bother taking somone elses account and farming it to there own planet to gain a higher rank? Whats the benefit in that? if havoc means nothing, i dont see the fun in watching ur main fleet totaly steal for example a 'friends accounts' fleet that YOU sent in the first place. The only reason why you would want to do that is gain rank, but of course, as people keep pointing out to the MH's its just Havoc.... so, why do planets care so much about there rank there cheating in havoc? You said your self no one should care, the main round is all that matters. But that isnt what takes place is it? If people care that much about there ranks in havoc to cheat, then the MHs should care enough to stop them during Havoc. I see that as common sense tbh.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

Perhaps i could then turn this around to ask why people are so bothered to argue the case that MHs shouldnt be bothered because its 'Havoc' but people are obviously bothered regarding this issue to argue the case.

Personally, I am not 'so bothered'. I have free time and I have an opinion so I am posting it.

And when im reffering to experimenting methods, your corrent it isnt experimenting to farm, however, people can use proxies, see how easy it is to farm as well as playing both accounts while one is on a proxie and consider doing it for a main round.

Actually this would only work if the Multihunters were on duty. Or else you would have no way of knowing if they could detect your proxy. Putting multihunters in havoc actually creates an opportunity to try out methods of fooling the hunters with no real repercussions.

As we ofc say its Havoc, so why do people need to bother taking somone elses account and farming it to there own planet to gain a higher rank? Whats the benefit in that? if havoc means nothing, i dont see the fun in watching ur main fleet totaly steal for example a 'friends accounts' fleet that YOU sent in the first place. The only reason why you would want to do that is gain rank, but of course, as people keep pointing out to the MH's its just Havoc.... so, why do planets care so much about there rank there cheating in havoc? You said your self no one should care, the main round is all that matters. But that isnt what takes place is it? If people care that much about there ranks in havoc to cheat, then the MHs should care enough to stop them during Havoc. I see that as common sense tbh.

People dont need to be doing anything in havoc, they are goofing around. Why on earth should multihunters waste thier time just to stick it to people who goof off in lame ways?

People can take havoc as seriously as they want, they can bet thier lives on thier havoc ranks, it doesnt change the fact that those ranks are not official. Havoc is not a real round, the rankings are not recorded. There is no reason in the world we need multihunters working during it.

[Willzzz]

Perhaps Having MHs here to prevent cheating makes the point that cheating isnt allowed never mind what type or format the game is set at? You call this 'goffing around' but people that want to cheat and farm and run more then one account just worry me. I agree that havoc should ust be as it says, but havoc wasnt intended for people to run more then one account, it was there bassicaly as i said above for you to attack people you couldnt in the main round. have fun. Not cheat.

Ill ask What does cheating in a havoc round benefit?

If ranks dont count (which i am aware they dont) why would you need to send a suicde fleet at your main account to farm all the ships?

I think having Mhs (and i dont mean being there with an iron fist, just occasionaly check out reportings ect perhaps once all day during a havos period) does again show people that cheating isnt allowed within this game and will carry on that way no matter the stage of the game your playing (ie speed rounds, main game or havoc) I would preffer people with the state of mind to WANT to cheat not play this game at all. Which i have stated my appionon on those views many many times before. I of course understand its havoc, i also understand your arguments regarding this issue, as it does seem pointless to have Mhs hunt. But, it also to me seems pointless to cheat in a havoc round. As i asked what does that achive? it isnt any more fun or skillful i dont think. I would preffer to have more fun attacking a friend whos actually also playing his account, then for him to just give me his password and me send his fleet, balanced enough for me to cap it all. I dont see the logic in that.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by K-W

Are you kidding me? Yes it is. That is exactly what havoc is and always has been.

You're just saying something is so because you think it is. There is NOTHING that says havoc should be treated differently from the perspective of the rules.

No they dont. There is nothing even remotely normal about letting you keep your planet/ships from the round that ended and giving you one week of fast ticks where there will be no official ranking even without the donations.

What does normality have to do with the rules not applying? Oh you start off with a certain number of roids and ships so the rules don't apply? What?

Havoc is very obviously not a round of PA, its an unofficial extension of a round that has already ended for the sake of goofing around. Thats why we call it havoc and not a Speed Round or Round 18.

We could call it the sixteenth havoc round or whatever but why get caught up in names?

I changed your post so that it fits with my argument that havoc might be a serious round even though it is blatently obvious that it isnt a serious round.

Your fetish for this concept of seriousness aside why should my enjoyment of havoc be compromised by you farming your mates (I'm just using you and me as examples here obviously). We get given some resources and roids and the ticks are quicker but why are you allowed to farm? I'd like to play a bit of PA where I don't get ****ed by alliances and planets four times the size of me I have no hope of stopping. Maybe pateam are just having a laugh closing your account

[Treveler]

By looking at the planet rank there are about 50 planets in top 100 that should be closed for ship farming.

Ohh wait, its HAVOC and no one cares.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Treveler

By looking at the planet rank there are about 50 planets in top 100 that should be closed for ship farming.

Ohh wait, its HAVOC and no one cares.

Oh look we've travelled back in time to the start of this thread and I'll have to kill myself to avoid going through the same thing again.

[Treveler]

That would have saved this world for a lot of stupidity.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Treveler

That would have saved this world for a lot of stupidity.

Your arrogant pretentious bullshit aside please stop posting if you intend on only trolling.

[qebab]

Originally Posted by Treveler

By looking at the planet rank there are about 50 planets in top 100 that should be closed for ship farming.

Ohh wait, its HAVOC and no one cares.

The point isn't that anyone cares or don't, as some people seem to have mistaken it for. The question is wether rules should, or should not apply because the havoc period is seen as less serious than the round itself. What I consider important here is consisteny - you agree to an EULA at the start of the round, and that EULA doesn't suddenly turn into sheep swallop just because half the players see havoc as time to just play around. You agreed to it, and when you get closed for breaking it, there is no need to complain as you were obviously aware of the rules all along.

The difference between havoc and the real round (speaking game mechanics) is only that you get a huge amount of roids and resource - the fact that people doesn't take it seriously is something they choose to, not something the admins enforce. However they have to enforce the rules. The fact that people are suddenly surprised that there are rules in havoc too is mildly surprising. Why was there a need to break the rules in the first place (even in havoc)? Is it more fun to break the rules or something like that?

[K-W]

I agree that havoc wasnt meant for cheating and I agree that people who do cheat are lame. But some people are inclined to cheat when they can get away with it and will continue to do so regardless of how havoc is regulated.

If ranks dont count (which i am aware they dont) why would you need to send a suicde fleet at your main account to farm all the ships?

The whole point of havoc is that its fun to throw big fleets around, even when ranks and stuff dont matter.

Having the multihunters check in once a day will accomplish nothing. First of all, even if they enforced like crazy, people would still cheat because there are no repercussions.

"Oh no, my havoc account got closed"

And if they only checked in once a day, the vast majority of cheaters wouldnt get caught.

But, it also to me seems pointless to cheat in a havoc round. As i asked what does that achive? it isnt any more fun or skillful i dont think. I would preffer to have more fun attacking a friend whos actually also playing his account, then for him to just give me his password and me send his fleet, balanced enough for me to cap it all. I dont see the logic in that.

And I agree with you. People who farm during havoc should be laughed at, but I think having the multihunters close them down accomplishes nothing whilst giving the MH's extra work during the time period when they should be allowed to forget about PA or even play havoc themselves without having to worry about busting people.

But hey, if the MH's want to enforce the rules, they are certainly allowed to, it just seems like an absolutely unneccssary bit of work. Look at all the ziks around right now, many of them signed up for the sole purpose of playing havoc. How many of these planets have had an inactive friend suicide on them, farmed thier old planet, etc. I would venture to guess its alot of them. Add to that all the multiing and account swapping.

It would take a tremendous amount of work to stamp cheating out of havoc, and for what?

[Treveler]

The point isn't that anyone cares or don't, as some people seem to have mistaken it for. The question is wether rules should, or should not apply because the havoc period is seen as less serious than the round itself. What I consider important here is consisteny - you agree to an EULA at the start of the round, and that EULA doesn't suddenly turn into sheep swallop just because half the players see havoc as time to just play around. You agreed to it, and when you get closed for breaking it, there is no need to complain as you were obviously aware of the rules all along.

Its consistency I’m looking for too. If they want to enforce the rules they should start deleting planets. About 50 of them, within top 100, as a start.

It would be better for everyone if they would just let it be though. It would be much more consistent with previous havocs too.

Your arrogant pretentious bullshit aside please stop posting if you intend on only trolling.

I only replied in the same manner to your pretentious bullshit. I’m guessing there should be so many cases of farming that they should have no time to post on AD.

[qebab]

Originally Posted by K-W

It would take a tremendous amount of work to stamp cheating out of havoc, and for what?

What does justice mean to you? No, seriously, why should everyone pay taxes when it's quite clear that the government will do okay if only a majority of the people pay taxes. Or speed limits, so long as you don't hurt anyone, why should you get a fine for speeding? Obviously the police is putting down a lot of work into catching speeders, and for what? To get the extra funds, or to make sure people abide by the rules, or justice or any such thing?

The rules are there for a reason, and if people can't abide by them they shouldn't play. Havoc or not, it doesn't really matter.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Treveler

I only replied in the same manner to your pretentious bullshit. I’m guessing there should be so many cases of farming that they should have no time to post on AD.

Maybe you should help out and report them!

And I'm sorry but you can't seriously expect to came into a 60 post thread with the same point made in post one and expect people to argue through everything that has been said up to that point again, do you?

[qebab]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Its consistency I’m looking for too. If they want to enforce the rules they should start deleting planets. About 50 of them, within top 100, as a start.

It would be better for everyone if they would just let it be though. It would be much more consistent with previous havocs too.

I am guessing (though I have no information about this) that the reason this thread exists in the first place is that some of those 50 top 100 planets got closed, or something like that. And as has already been mentioned on multiple occasions - the EULA is for the entire round, so it would be consistent to delete planets in havoc wether they have done so on earlier occasions or not.

And I don't see how it would be better for "everyone" to just let it be. If there is only one person who does not benefit from it, it isn't "everyone" anymore, and I bet that there are a whole lot more than 1 person who get owned by these people. Fairness? Hardly.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

You're just saying something is so because you think it is.

I am also giving reasons for why I think it. You are also saying something is so because you think it is so. As far as I can tell that is the definition of an opinion.

There is NOTHING that says havoc should be treated differently from the perspective of the rules.

There is an extremely important destinction between havoc and a round of Planetarion. Havoc is unofficial. Look, Im not saying the rules change, that cheating is ok, im pointing out the sillyness in having people working to enforce them.

What does normality have to do with the rules not applying? Oh you start off with a certain number of roids and ships so the rules don't apply? What?

The point is that havoc is an unofficial extension of the round, after all official business has ended,. I never said the rules didnt apply, but what is the point of enforcing them exactly? Why are MH's wasting thier time busting people during an unofficial round extension that exists only so people can throw artificially inflated fleets around when there are no stakes.

We could call it the sixteenth havoc round or whatever but why get caught up in names?

Because we give them different names for a reason. A round, a speed round, and havoc are very different things. The reasons for having multihunters during round and speed rounds is obvious. Those reasons do not translate well to havoc.

Your fetish for this concept of seriousness aside why should my enjoyment of havoc be compromised by you farming your mates (I'm just using you and me as examples here obviously). We get given some resources and roids and the ticks are quicker but why are you allowed to farm? I'd like to play a bit of PA where I don't get ****ed by alliances and planets four times the size of me I have no hope of stopping. Maybe pateam are just having a laugh closing your account

My fetish?... right.

I think multihunters should work during real rounds to ensure that real rankings are legitimate. I dont think their job is to stop big planets from hitting you during havoc.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by qebab

What does justice mean to you? No, seriously, why should everyone pay taxes when it's quite clear that the government will do okay if only a majority of the people pay taxes. Or speed limits, so long as you don't hurt anyone, why should you get a fine for speeding? Obviously the police is putting down a lot of work into catching speeders, and for what? To get the extra funds, or to make sure people abide by the rules, or justice or any such thing?

The rules are there for a reason, and if people can't abide by them they shouldn't play. Havoc or not, it doesn't really matter.

I never argued that rules shouldnt be enforced during rounds, so your comments about speeding and taxes are nonsensical. Speeding can always kill people, paying taxes always deprives people of money. Taking donations in havoc doesnt effect any official planetarion results at all.

You would do much better to compare planetarion to a game.

So I return to my football analogy. The match is over, the winner has been declared, players are allowed to remain on the field and play if they want to. Of course the rules of football still apply, but calling for a referree to come in and give people penalties is silly.

On edit: and of course, if there is a referee who wants to volunteer thier time, thats fine, but the idea that they are obligated to referee unofficial play after the round has ended is rediculous.

[Treveler]

Maybe you should help out and report them!

Yes it really takes a sharp eye to find potential ship farmers right now. There are hardly any ziks with a somewhat unatural high value in topp 100 right now.

And I'm sorry but you can't seriously expect to came into a 60 post thread with the same point made in post one and expect people to argue through everything that has been said up to that point again, do you?

I haven’t seen anyone in this thread pointing at the ridiculous amount of ship farming going on right now, at least if you take into account the standard set for farming last round. If they want to enforce the rules, they should start closing planets.

[qebab]

Originally Posted by K-W

There is an extremely important destinction between havoc and a round of Planetarion. Havoc is unofficial. Look, Im not saying the rules change, that cheating is ok, im pointing out the sillyness in having people working to enforce them.

I am not sure if I want to have a discussion with someone who is "pointing out the sillyness in having people working to enforce the rules". If the multihunters have time to drop by once in a while to close planets during havoc, why shouldn't they? This is obviously not something that they took days of work to do - it is something they did because they wanted to and had the time to it. I am sure that the multihunters can evaluate wether they have time to enforce the rules in havoc or not. Let us stop pretending that we want to stop multihunting in havoc because it is more convienient for the multihunter team. If that is your best argument I don't think you are going to convince anyone.

[qebab]

Originally Posted by K-W

I never argued that rules shouldnt be enforced during rounds, so your comments about speeding and taxes are nonsensical. Speeding can always kill people, paying taxes always deprives people of money. Taking donations in havoc doesnt effect any official planetarion results at all.

Well, there are obviously better examples to this. Take parking tickets and parking fines for instance. Why should I pay a parking tickets if there are plenty of parking lots open? And if I choose to not do it, do I have any right to complaing when I get a parking fine? I was aware of the possible consequenses all along, and yet I chose not to. But why are there people patrolling the parking lots when there are plenty of spots open? What's the point in that? I think that it is fairly self evident.

Originally Posted by K-W

You would do much better to compare planetarion to a game.

So I return to my football analogy. The match is over, the winner has been declared, players are allowed to remain on the field and play if they want to. Of course the rules of football still apply, but calling for a referree to come in and give people penalties is silly.

And when people start fouling, and pushing and stuff. Does it still make so little sense to use a referee? What if it comes to an open fight? No point in a referee still?

Your example is based on the assumption that there will be only minor "cheats" and that it will not affect people to a degree that will undermine their play. What is the point in having rules that aren't enforced by anyone? That is in effect the same as having no rules at all.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by qebab

I am not sure if I want to have a discussion with someone who is "pointing out the sillyness in having people working to enforce the rules". If the multihunters have time to drop by once in a while to close planets during havoc, why shouldn't they? This is obviously not something that they took days of work to do - it is something they did because they wanted to and had the time to it. I am sure that the multihunters can evaluate wether they have time to enforce the rules in havoc or not. Let us stop pretending that we want to stop multihunting in havoc because it is more convienient for the multihunter team. If that is your best argument I don't think you are going to convince anyone.

I never said there was anything wrong with multihunters stopping by and enforcing the rules. Its pointless, since they will miss 99% of the havoc cheaters, but they can certainly do it if they want to.

Some people however have been arguing that they are under an obligation to enforce the rules during havoc, I find that to be bogus.

And I am pretending nothing. The entire point of havoc is that it is unofficial, this means people can relax while playing. They dont have to worry about ranking because the rankings are meaningless, they dont have to worry about defending each other because alliances arent competing for ranks etc. I dont see why multihunters should be excluded from being able to relax during havoc, especially when it always comes directly after a full round where the multihunters had to work for months when the rankings did matter.

So yah, if MH's want to work during havoc, all power to them.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by K-W

Somebodies taking havoc far too seriously.

I'm quoting this for truth.

People cheat in havoc, as they've got nothing to lose and they will continue to do so MH or not. In my earlier days i once reported multis during havoc and just got laughed at and rightly so. Because havoc is exactly what it says on the tin, it's a free period given by the creators and quite frankly MH's time is better spent chasing down cheaters mid round than during havoc.

Looking at it from my point of view many people on this thread are quite clear and have accepted what havoc has been in the past (i.e. with very lax MH enforcement and reduced service from pa team) through course of dealing and suddenly they want to go back on this. Effectively all this amounts to is them putting pa team on notice that they want this to change (not that it should in any shape or form)

As long as there are no prizes available there's no point giving havoc any credence whatsoever. As with Germania although I don't condone cheating at any time, there's little point caring about it at this stage.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by qebab

Well, there are obviously better examples to this. Take parking tickets and parking fines for instance. Why should I pay a parking tickets if there are plenty of parking lots open? And if I choose to not do it, do I have any right to complaing when I get a parking fine? I was aware of the possible consequenses all along, and yet I chose not to. But why are there people patrolling the parking lots when there are plenty of spots open? What's the point in that? I think that it is fairly self evident.

I already explained why your law examples are bogus. I dont know why you insist on trying to equate rules of a game to laws.

And when people start fouling, and pushing and stuff. Does it still make so little sense to use a referee? What if it comes to an open fight? No point in a referee still?

Luckily we needn't worry about anyone getting hurt in planetarion. So there is no need for a referee on that account.

Your example is based on the assumption that there will be only minor "cheats" and that it will not affect people to a degree that will undermine their play. What is the point in having rules that aren't enforced by anyone? That is in effect the same as having no rules at all.

I have made no such assumption and my example was not at all based on such an assumption.

The rules must be enforced whenever the play is official, and the point of the rules is to ensure fair competition.

Now what is the point of enforcing those rules during the one week period after the competition of the round has ended? The fact that you get to keep your ships from the previous round automatically ensures that havoc will never be fair competition.

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by Fiery

I think it's so cute the way you come on here to stir crap up, Ducky. But what makes it the worst case ever? Is it because it happened to Sid? Do you need some lipbalm for those chapped lips?

you of all people should know I'm not that shallow and that I could care less who got closed, as I said previously, was just seein who could shine some light on the situation, as all I had heard was rumors....next time you want to take a shot at me Fiery how about you get in my pm box and try it...LOL

thing is, even if you gotta deal with people asking questions, thats part of the job......I'm wondering how much closing got done for farming during the round mostly...or was it just that someone got a wild hair up their ass to make a point during havoc

[MaxMilliaN]

what a stupid and pointless thread

and also, i can think of 1 thing thats more silly then MH at havoc

CHEATERS AT HAVOC

[K-W]

Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN

what a stupid and pointless thread

Well, it is havoc.

[aNgRyDuCk]

I talked to Phil a bit, as most of you know he was an ex multi hunter, and as we got talking, he suggested that possibly I clarify exactly what I was going for in this thread. I understand the the valid points brought up here hold weight and I appreciate those of you with valid points, but it wasn't really what I was going for, so let me be clear.

My basic question is this...... and I'll use two examples... first, a couple friends explained to me that one of them had been closed, because one person, while at work, ran his fleet to the others planet, instead of leaving it there to get hijacked/burnt...which is not against the rules and being closed for this is completely rediculous in my opinion...

then the time my wife and I were closed.....round 15 I believe. she was playing in ToF, her first round... we had ABSOLUTELY no interaction ,other than the fact that ToF hit a galaxy 1up hit 4 days after 1up hit it, oh ya ( and I was actually given this as a reason) she and I signed up with the same address, same ip, and same last name..... now it would be a real screwed up marriage if the above were not the case.... and Phil who was the multi hunter CO at the time, reopened us about 4 seconds after I asked him to look at the case, after I had argued an hour with the actual person who closed us..... again, in my opinion, the reasoning was completely rediculous...

so the question is, where, if anywhere are the multi hunters held accountable for their performance, and I understand players have no business seeing sensative information about specific cases, but I would like to see round end stats stating number of closures, and maybe a log of close reasons...

and were their consistant closures THIS round for farming, and other reasons ofcourse, or did someone just get ripped by some zik in havoc, got pissed off and decide to go on a zik hunt.......

if I need to elaborate anymore please feel free to find my pm box or ask me here....

this thread WAS NOT intended to flame anyone, just simply wanted clarification on the happenings, and follow up on the above.

[Wishmaster]

I ve never played a havoc for long, since I am then sick and tired of PA and need some time of. Also I dont find much fun playing / spending loads of time for nothing.

However, some people DO like HAVOC, I know people that actually look forward to it. I laugh at them and imo they are weird, but they are also a part of this community, so we cant accept cheating, as that will ruin the fun from the people actually caring about the HAVOC.

So - GW to MHs for closing the cheaters, and its not like this is something new, they have closed people in other HAVOCS also.

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk

My basic question is this...... and I'll use two examples... first, a couple friends explained to me that one of them had been closed, because one person, while at work, ran his fleet to the others planet, instead of leaving it there to get hijacked/burnt...which is not against the rules and being closed for this is completely rediculous in my opinion...

ofc its rediculous. Closing merely for running your fleet to a friend or anyone who isnt even on the same ip address so it cant even be classed as interaction, while you are at work is not a closable offence.
Hell if it were a lot of people would have to be closed for running to 1:1:1

Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk

so the question is, where, if anywhere are the multi hunters held accountable for their performance, and I understand players have no business seeing sensative information about specific cases, but I would like to see round end stats stating number of closures, and maybe a log of close reasons...

in theory, they are held accountable by the head of multihunters, who should check on their work from time to time and personally get involved in ongoing disputes over closures or when asked ( as the highest authority a planet can go to ) to look at a case and give a final verdict.
the head of multihunters is theoretically accountable to jolt, since they are in pateam.
this should still be the case this round, since it was when i retired and i cant see why they would want to change it since its a structure which works well if applied properly.
performance figures for the multihunters would be interesting to see but they would need to have to be deliberately vague on the information given. they couldnt for instance give out the signup details of those closed but totals of closed planets, by reason and overall would be interesting to see.

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN

CHEATERS AT HAVOC

Holy hell.

Pigs are flying, bricks are floating, and for the very first time, I agree with max on a point here.

My world is turning upside-down!

Edit: And something non-flammatory...

If I recall right, there was annoyances in #planetarion and various alliance channels that there were cheaters left right and center last havoc. Of course, most folks told them that it's havoc, noone cares, etc. I'm sure I said it myself as well. But, that comment/line of thinking is disrespecting those who do wish to play it seriously; and like any other did pay to play the real round. It's not just one person as someone {cba to look who :/ } oh so nicely put...

The MH are doing as they should be doing. So if you don't want to feel the brunt end of their mouse as they close your account, then:

DON'T. BE. A. CHEATING. WEENIE!
(it's really not that hard a concept tbh :/)

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by K-W

PA team announces that the round is over and the FINAL rankings have been taken, announces that there will be a special 'havoc' round that doesnt count where people are given huge donations so everyone has a giant planet. And just because someone chooses to care about the meaningless rankings of havoc it means that suddenly its a serious round?

Yer, I agree, they should have reacted when the round was still running and 1up decided to abuse a ruleflaw. But they didnt

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk

I talked to Phil a bit, as most of you know he was an ex multi hunter, and as we got talking, he suggested that possibly I clarify exactly what I was going for in this thread. I understand the the valid points brought up here hold weight and I appreciate those of you with valid points, but it wasn't really what I was going for, so let me be clear.

My basic question is this...... and I'll use two examples... first, a couple friends explained to me that one of them had been closed, because one person, while at work, ran his fleet to the others planet, instead of leaving it there to get hijacked/burnt...which is not against the rules and being closed for this is completely rediculous in my opinion...

then the time my wife and I were closed.....round 15 I believe. she was playing in ToF, her first round... we had ABSOLUTELY no interaction ,other than the fact that ToF hit a galaxy 1up hit 4 days after 1up hit it, oh ya ( and I was actually given this as a reason) she and I signed up with the same address, same ip, and same last name..... now it would be a real screwed up marriage if the above were not the case.... and Phil who was the multi hunter CO at the time, reopened us about 4 seconds after I asked him to look at the case, after I had argued an hour with the actual person who closed us..... again, in my opinion, the reasoning was completely rediculous...

so the question is, where, if anywhere are the multi hunters held accountable for their performance, and I understand players have no business seeing sensative information about specific cases, but I would like to see round end stats stating number of closures, and maybe a log of close reasons...

and were their consistant closures THIS round for farming, and other reasons ofcourse, or did someone just get ripped by some zik in havoc, got pissed off and decide to go on a zik hunt.......

if I need to elaborate anymore please feel free to find my pm box or ask me here....

this thread WAS NOT intended to flame anyone, just simply wanted clarification on the happenings, and follow up on the above.

I am just curious, but round 15, im pretty sure was when i brought in the support planet rule. You claim you were closed in round 15 for those offences? Well, the MH at the time was myself as Manager, Squishy as deputy, Marv and Appoc. So, as i cant remmember ofc every case that happends, if you were closed by myself or another MH for that evidence then yes correct that was of course not even evidence at all to myself, and if it was myself id be quite shocked. But, regarding the bit about 'phil re-oppened you' are you sure you have the right round? As phil stated he was retired at that point, from round 13? (cant reemmember when phil retired) but im pretty sure he wasnt in PA team or MH in that round, deffinatly. (Then again i am getting old)

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by Assassin

I am just curious, but round 15, im pretty sure was when i brought in the support planet rule. You claim you were closed in round 15 for those offences? Well, the MH at the time was myself as Manager, Squishy as deputy, Marv and Appoc. So, as i cant remmember ofc every case that happends, if you were closed by myself or another MH for that evidence then yes correct that was of course not even evidence at all to myself, and if it was myself id be quite shocked. But, regarding the bit about 'phil re-oppened you' are you sure you have the right round? As phil stated he was retired at that point, from round 13? (cant reemmember when phil retired) but im pretty sure he wasnt in PA team or MH in that round, deffinatly. (Then again i am getting old)

i think it was around r12-13ish he's on about.
Back then, interacting on the same ip address was against the eula, and i do remember his case so its probably just the round number hes got confused about

( my god im feeling old now )

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by Phil^

i think it was around r12-13ish he's on about.
Back then, interacting on the same ip address was against the eula, and i do remember his case so its probably just the round number hes got confused about

( my god im feeling old now )

it may have been prior, R 13-14...can't remember, possibly Fellah can help me out there and remind me what round she played for ToF....anyways....my bad for getting the round number wrong

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Yer, I agree, they should have reacted when the round was still running and 1up decided to abuse a ruleflaw. But they didnt

Horseshit.....do you ever quit whining?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk

it may have been prior, R 13-14...can't remember, possibly Fellah can help me out there and remind me what round she played for ToF....anyways....my bad for getting the round number wrong

Correct me if I'm wrong but did you just refer to your wife by her irc nick?

[I am Idler]

Before r18 starts. I will make a thread where everyone who continues to bitch and moan every round will confirm that they have read the eula, participated in the beta and given suggestions, Understood the game engine and agreed they cant find anything wrong with it.

If I never hear a "I told you so" sentence again, it is way to soon.

Failure to obey will result in me and JonnyBGood traveling to your respective houses and lightt your computers on fire.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by I am Idler

Before r18 starts. I will make a thread where everyone who continues to bitch and moan every round will confirm that they have read the eula, participated in the beta and given suggestions, Understood the game engine and agreed they cant find anything wrong with it.

If I never hear a "I told you so" sentence again, it is way to soon.

Failure to obey will result in me and JonnyBGood traveling to your respective houses and lightt your computers on fire.

Or you could get the PA crew to change the rules mid game, whatever is convinient for you...