value, xp, admins, fleets, winner, hate, agony, flaming

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

As, I think, I mentioned before you'd then have to rely on the judgement of the multihunters, what was his motivation, did he know the guy, was he allied to him et cetera et cetera.

So a multihunter has to guess the motivation behind the attack and make a judgement based on that guess? I didn’t know rain and I have no affiliation with him what so ever. What if I just disliked the guy above rain and wanted rain to pass him. Should we expect multihunters to figure that out? I dont think we can, but we can remove the means aid rain with donation.

The thing was, your objection seemed to be an objection to the whole levelling of cheating accusations per se. If we acknowledge the validity of your objection it can equally then be applied to a scenario where player x has players a through y suiciding on him around the clock for salvage. If we don't acknowledge the validity of your objection we can retain ziks and leave the cases of "cheating" to the multihunters.

Are you saying that if we are to trust the multihunters to catch obvious salvage donations as you described, we should also trust them to catch dubious ship donations at ziks?

I don’t put much faith in the judgement of the multihunters but I do think they will catch ongoing salvage donations. I do not trust them, however, to make equally just decisions on ship donations, simply because it gets much more complex and it will be exploited much more.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Treveler

What if I just disliked the guy above rain and wanted rain to pass him.

:(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Should we expect multihunters to figure that out? I dont think we can, but we can remove the means aid rain with donation.

I'm not really sure why not, I don't think it requires genius level thinking.

Are you saying that if we are to trust the multihunters to catch obvious salvage donations as you described, we should also trust them to catch dubious ship donations at ziks?

I don’t put much faith in the judgement of the multihunters but I do think they will catch ongoing salvage donations. I do not trust them, however, to make equally just decisions on ship donations, simply because it gets much more complex and it will be exploited much more.

I think I trust the multihunters more than you do then.

[bwtmc]

Originally Posted by Treveler

In the name of all that is good and decent in this world, please, please, PLEASE, read through what is written so you actually understand what we talk about. We were talking about a hypothetical situation were you bash your fleet MID-round with the excuse that you want to change to an xp-whore strategy. Or to put it simpler, would it be okay to bash your fleet at a zik mid-round if you want to change to xp-whoring?

I think the mid-round part of the hypothetical situation was in your head, I don't see it anywhere previously. That makes better sense!

The sensible way to lower your fleet value as above would be to hit (probably a Zik) a planet you could gain considerable XP, suffering large losses for large gains, a tactic that's not sustainable for any length of time but highly profitable in the short term.

i.e instead of rain, you'd pick the guy with twice your value and double the roids (that you could cap from fleet comp wise).

[robban1]

[quote=JonnyBGoodI think I trust the multihunters more than you do then.[/QUOTE]

ppl tend to trust their buddies, in your case the mh's

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by robban1

ppl tend to trust their buddies, in your case the mh's

It might also have to do with the fact that they're competent, decent volunteers in PA doing a thankless, almost abusive job in order to make PA a fairer game to play.

Those pointy green ears sprouting on your head are not very fetching. Try coming out from your cave every so often and attempting to rectify the problem.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by Squidly

It might also have to do with the fact that they're competent, decent volunteers in PA doing a thankless, almost abusive job in order to make PA a fairer game to play.

Those pointy green ears sprouting on your head are not very fetching. Try coming out from your cave every so often and attempting to rectify the problem.

well as long as they are bias they are shit and should be treated as that too

[furball]

Originally Posted by robban1

well as long as they are bias they are shit and should be treated as that too

It's a good thing that they're not biased then. In fact, I feel sorry for them when every time they have to make a hard decision, all of the affected planet's friends (YES, YOU) storm onto IRC and the forums to complain and whine for a good month.

Face it. rain would probably not have won the round even with people donating to him. If they had been allowed to donate to him and he had won, it would have been a tragedy for Planetarion.


Now get off my forums.

[I am Idler]

Originally Posted by robban1

ppl tend to trust their buddies, in your case the mh's

Originally Posted by robban1

well as long as they are bias they are shit and should be treated as that too

You and your friends are also bias, shit and shit. How about THAT

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by robban1

well as long as they are bias they are shit and should be treated as that too

Right. So. You're biased, and so we should treat you like junk?

[robban1]

Originally Posted by Squidly

Right. So. You're biased, and so we should treat you like junk?

well im not mh so it doesnt matter if im bias but its up to you guys to treat me whatever you want

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by robban1

ppl tend to trust their buddies, in your case the mh's

If you post in this thread again without declaring one example of any cheating on my part I'm going to ban you. I've given you enough rope to hang an army and instead you appear to be trying to insert it in your rectum. This is not the best use for rope. Please buy some new rope and write a message on it and then lassoo some truth with it and send it my way.

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by robban1

well im not mh so it doesnt matter if im bias but its up to you guys to treat me whatever you want

Wait wait wait... you're throwing out more accusations of bias at the MH when you yourself are so biased that it's been ID'd by a mod and a regular....

Are.... You being hypocritcal?!

[[hydra]rain]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

If you post in this thread again without declaring one example of any cheating on my part I'm going to ban you.

hows it feel to be targeted?
should i start counting all ppl who acused me? what if they all would be banned? actually it might be a good idea

[furball]

rain, you're not being targetted. The fact that people 'on your side' are displaying someone of the worst posting I've seen in a long time isn't helping your argument, but it's not directed at you.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by [hydra]rain

hows it feel to be targeted?
should i start counting all ppl who acused me? what if they all would be banned? actually it might be a good idea

For your information in a different thread (can a value player win this round i think) I said that any further accusations of cheating towards you would not be tolerated as no action had been taken by pateam. While you should keep in mind that most people in this thread are not accusing you of cheating, and are merely accusing others of donating their fleets, I think that the fact actions have been taken should leave the floor open to at least some discussion.

[Achilles]

He meant being accused unjustly of cheating I think furball. I'm not sure if there was a lot of those kind of accusations in this or other threads but, if so, there was at least a little circumstantial evidence to back it up.

On a side note I would personally be sad if JBG did ban robban1. I can only imagine the torrid time the poor chap has in life with his limited mental faculties and inability to use sentences, punctuation or grammar. It's the internet equivalent of slapping a retard in the face with a shitty stick tbh.

[[hydra]rain]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

For your information in a different thread (can a value player win this round i think) I said that any further accusations of cheating towards you would not be tolerated as no action had been taken by pateam. While you should keep in mind that most people in this thread are not accusing you of cheating, and are merely accusing others of donating their fleets, I think that the fact actions have been taken should leave the floor open to at least some discussion.

ok, i'll put it different
since there were no planets closed but a lot of ppl are being acused of donating me ships, hence cheating, it would be nice of you to ban them too

[pig]

there fleets were recalled, hence the accusations have truth. Unlike the accusations towards jonny.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by [hydra]rain

ok, i'll put it different
since there were no planets closed but a lot of ppl are being acused of donating me ships, hence cheating, it would be nice of you to ban them too

There's evidence that people wanted to donate their fleets.
There's no evidence that JBG cheated.

I'll sponsor you a pos-rep if you manage to spot the difference.

edit: pig beat me by a few seconds

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by bwtmc

I think the mid-round part of the hypothetical situation was in your head, I don't see it anywhere previously. That makes better sense!

A good thing JBG can read my mind tho as that was what we discussed.

Can you please refrain from replying to my posts as you are obviously unable to read or just trying to cause a stirr.

The sensible way to lower your fleet value as above would be to hit (probably a Zik) a planet you could gain considerable XP, suffering large losses for large gains, a tactic that's not sustainable for any length of time but highly profitable in the short term.

A good thing that was exactly what happen then. Lost a bunch of fleet for max xp from the roids that was capped.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Can you please refrain from replying to my posts as you are obviously unable to read or just trying to cause a stirr.

If you want to have a private love-in with Jonny then take your discussion to pm. When you post on public boards people are free to reply in any fashion they see fit. Also, if his replies have no merit, why do you consistently reply to them?

[JonnyBGood]

I used to think of treveler and achilles as effectively the same poster. This new turn of events has caught me very much off my guard

[Achilles]

My unrequited love for bwtmc caused a hasty reaction

[Tomkat]

Where did all these terrible posters (which, amusingly, are all on the same wavelength of argument) come from?

It's like a bunch of spastics trying to **** a doorknob

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
I'm not really sure why not, I don't think it requires genius level thinking.

I dont really dislike you but maybe someone out there do?

I think I trust the multihunters more than you do then.

I don’t trust them because of the objectivity factor. The more that is down to their judgement the greater is the chance to influence them.

Planetarion has a small community were "everybody" knows everybody and bias will occur when decisions are made. Therefore the rules have to be very clear cut so that the bias factor gets as small as possible. That mean steal ships goes out the door!

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I used to think of treveler and achilles as effectively the same poster. This new turn of events has caught me very much off my guard

When I post about an issue I argue my cause and not what my friend want me to.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Treveler

When I post about an issue I argue my cause and not what my friend want me to.

If you are trying to imply that I only posted because bwtmc is my friend then you couldn't be more wrong. I don't even know the guy. I simply objected to the logic that he shouldn't reply to you just because you don't want him to.

If, as seems to be the case, your argument is so terribly weak that the only defense you can muster is "omfg, thatz not wat I said nub!!!1one" followed by a swift "I is 2 clevr for u u shuldnt reply to me nub!!!oneelevenfour" then you should expect people to call you on that.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Treveler

I don’t trust them because of the objectivity factor. The more that is down to their judgement the greater is the chance to influence them.

Planetarion has a small community were "everybody" knows everybody and bias will occur when decisions are made. Therefore the rules have to be very clear cut so that the bias factor gets as small as possible. That mean steal ships goes out the door!

Not really.

I know a lot of people, but I'd say I only know ~200 people who currently play. I doubt anyone knows more than ~400 current players.

If a multihunter knows the owner of a planet personally, the practice is for them to pass the planet to another multihunter who doesn't. And if you really think that anyone can corrupt all of the MH team, then I want some of what you're smoking .

[Treveler]

YA RLY!

So you dont think multihunters have been influenced by friends or friends of friends to make a decition they wouldnt normally make the last few rounds? If that is the case I want whatever it is your smoking

[furball]

Originally Posted by Treveler

YA RLY!

So you dont think multihunters have been influenced by friends or friends of friends to make a decition they wouldnt normally make the last few rounds? If that is the case I want whatever it is your smoking

We're not talking about past multihunter decisions. We're talking about this multihunter decision in a thread which, suprisingly enough, is about the multihunter decision.

And no, I don't think that this decision was influenced by friends, friends of friends, brothers, sisters, grandparents, cats, dogs, goldfish or anything of the sort. It was the right decision to make, and that really should be the end of it.

[Treveler]

Ohhh God I give up!

We were in the middle of a discussion about how much we should rely on the judgement of multihunter in general, and then you showed up.

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by Treveler

YA RLY!

So you dont think multihunters have been influenced by friends or friends of friends to make a decition they wouldnt normally make the last few rounds? If that is the case I want whatever it is your smoking

Good Evening Treveler, I have watched this thread for a while now and i have decided a comment like that which involves my department requires a responce. Now, forgive me Trev, but i forgot what experience you had as a MH? You speak of trust in us and you doubt my and the rest of my teams judgement in spotting cheats.. your of course welcome to your appionon. But when you speak of my Team being biased, you couldnt be more wrong. Since i become a MH 3 and a half rounds ago, i have had to close a lot of people i know in this game, if anything i am more discusted with people i know that i catch cheating and punish them in the same way i would anyone i catch cheating, then allowing it to happen becuase i 'know them'. This goes the same way for letting people i know influence my decisions, i base my decisions on evidence gathered and the action is taken. If a MH on my team really did feel strongly that they could be affected by knowing somone then they pass the case onto another MH as furball said, but let me inform you this has never happend in the time i have bin a MH. If you have evidence it has then feel free to either pm me on irc or email me, if not then please reframe from pasting posts like that without any actual value. As far as this whole situation goes, i back Squishy 100%.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Treveler

We were in the middle of a discussion about how much we should rely on the judgement of multihunter in general, and then you showed up.

On a PUBLIC forum. If you only want to talk to certain people then use IRC or the pm button under their Avatar. The Forum isn't your personal toy to throw out of your pram every time someone disagrees with you

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Assassin

Good Evening Treveler, I have watched this thread for a while now and i have decided a comment like that which involves my department requires a responce. Now, forgive me Trev, but i forgot what experience you had as a MH?

Hehe, are you kidding me? So I have to have been involved in multihunting to talk about general bias that has been a case since the human race started socialising?

Since i become a MH 3 and a half rounds ago, i have had to close a lot of people i know in this game,

You shouldnt handle their case at all. Once you realise you know this person you should send it on to another multihunter. The fact that you dont understand this basic concept is a bit scary.

If a MH on my team really did feel strongly that they could be affected by knowing somone then they pass the case onto another MH as furball said, but let me inform you this has never happend in the time i have bin a MH.

That tells me all I need to know about your team as you put it.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Achilles

On a PUBLIC forum. If you only want to talk to certain people then use IRC or the pm button under their Avatar. The Forum isn't your personal toy to throw out of your pram every time someone disagrees with you

If we talk about football and someone comes along arguing about world hunger it’s a bit hard to keep the discussion coherent. And since this is a PUBLIC forum I expect ppl to read up before they reply.

[furball]

If Assassin's closing people he knows then that demonstrates an ability to make the decisions despite any personal relationships with those people. It shows that he can stick to his job no matter what the situation.

I would personally prefer it if the multihunter automatically recused themselves if they had any feelings (positive or negative) towards a player who is being closed. However, it may not always be practical to do so. Assassin?

[furball]

Originally Posted by Treveler

If we talk about football and someone comes along arguing about world hunger it’s a bit hard to keep the discussion coherent. And since this is a PUBLIC forum I expect ppl to read up before they reply.

Then it's a good thing that I had read up. You'd lost on the specific case in question and tried to turn the thread into a general debate about the role of multihunters. I didn't take your bait. Please stop crying about it. Thanks.

[Willzzz]

Originally Posted by Treveler

So a multihunter has to guess the motivation behind the attack and make a judgement based on that guess? I didn’t know rain and I have no affiliation with him what so ever. What if I just disliked the guy above rain and wanted rain to pass him. Should we expect multihunters to figure that out? I dont think we can, but we can remove the means aid rain with donation.



Are you saying that if we are to trust the multihunters to catch obvious salvage donations as you described, we should also trust them to catch dubious ship donations at ziks?

I don’t put much faith in the judgement of the multihunters but I do think they will catch ongoing salvage donations. I do not trust them, however, to make equally just decisions on ship donations, simply because it gets much more complex and it will be exploited much more.

Why are you failing to understand it is obvious to spot a fleet donation when somone splits up there fleets in such a way that it isnt a normal suicide? There is no guessing behind it what so ever that you speak of, its called having common sense. Also, when you also know that the person in question, was suicided on 3 times by a guy hes worked with in 2 alliances, worked with in speed rounds, and even had the nerve to thank in his speech in the end of round ceromony, call it a joke or not but i call it pathetic. Now, i would more like to turn this around, you dont trust the judgment in the MH's, but i question your judgement to actually defend the fact rain had people donate ships to him to get to 1st.

Now an alliance i remmember in my history of playing PA that was known for suicide attacks at the end of the round were hirr. Now, when they did a last say suicide, they put all ships into one fleet, they all got togther and just launched, and the aim was to get a huge battle for the end of the round. What seems to have happend with rain was we had PA Players splitting there fleets, which strangly enough seemed to be in great timing with rains (meaning they sent fleets after rain had run the ships that cudnt cap the attackers, did he have a psychic vision the incoming was coming before it was launched?) . Now i do trust the MH's, i have faith in them that they know there job and can enforce the rules. Its people that question and argue there judgment all the while that i do not trust. I agree people are welcome to there appionons, but there is a difference between an appionon, and blatent ignorence to whats taken place here.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by furball

Then it's a good thing that I had read up. You'd lost on the specific case in question and tried to turn the thread into a general debate about the role of multihunters. I didn't take your bait. Please stop crying about it. Thanks.

You do know that through 242 posts a discussion usually evolves beyond what was the original topic. Its kind of the nature of a healthy discussion.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by furball

If Assassin's closing people he knows then that demonstrates an ability to make the decisions despite any personal relationships with those people. It shows that he can stick to his job no matter what the situation.

I would personally prefer it if the multihunter automatically recused themselves if they had any feelings (positive or negative) towards a player who is being closed. However, it may not always be practical to do so. Assassin?

Shouldnt you in this post try to get the thread back to its original topic following your own logic?

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Treveler

You do know that through 242 posts a discussion usually evolves beyond what was the original topic. Its kind of the nature of a healthy discussion.

Unless there was 242 different posters.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by sniborp

Unless there was 242 different posters.

Hehe true, but it would probably drift a bit too!

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Hehe, are you kidding me? So I have to have been involved in multihunting to talk about general bias that has been a case since the human race started socialising?



You shouldnt handle their case at all. Once you realise you know this person you should send it on to another multihunter. The fact that you dont understand this basic concept is a bit scary.



That tells me all I need to know about your team as you put it.

I asked you if you had bin a MH becuase you seem to not understand our methods or how we work. Now, as far as handling a case goes where i know somone why not? As i pointed out above which you fail to understand, i do my job based on the evidence gathered which is in front of me, the fact i know them has no relevence to the case. Even if i did pass the case onto another MH, i see that as a sign of weakness to do my job. When somone is closed, there always welcome to a second appeal by the MH Manager if the first appeal fails. For example if a MH closed somone, and the person closed come online to pleed there inocence but the MH involved finds there either lieing or bassicaly not making sense they have the decision to of course re-open or keep closed. If its a strong case and the appeal of the person closed lies there perhaps kept closed, this is an example btw to point somthing out. Then there welcome to come and speak to the MH Manager which is myself. That is the procedure. So, if somone i know went through this and then asked to speak to me, would i say 'no becuase i no them?' of course not. I would speak to them, not about old times, not about my history with them. Only things that would be discussed would be the case and the evidence of why they were closed. This is what your failing to understand. So the fact i would know them would not effect my judgement. And furball i can of course understand, but i like to think i do my job profestionaly enough to not be influenced by ANYONE i know.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Assassin

And furball i can of course understand, but i like to think i do my job profestionaly enough to not be influenced by ANYONE i know.

No problem dude, from what I can see we have a pretty effective multihunter team at the moment. I wasn't questioning your professionalism, just pointing out the ideal scenario as opposed to "real life".

[furball]

Originally Posted by Treveler

You do know that through 242 posts a discussion usually evolves beyond what was the original topic. Its kind of the nature of a healthy discussion.

Just read half of page 5, Treveler. It's about rain - the specific case in question. So 242 posts? Again, what's that stuff you're smoking ?

Originally Posted by Treveler

Shouldnt you in this post try to get the thread back to its original topic following your own logic?

When people like you make such erroneous posts, I pretty much have a duty to correct you. Your fault not mine.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Assassin

I asked you if you had bin a MH becuase you seem to not understand our methods or how we work. Now, as far as handling a case goes where i know somone why not? As i pointed out above which you fail to understand, i do my job based on the evidence gathered which is in front of me, the fact i know them has no relevence to the case. Even if i did pass the case onto another MH, i see that as a sign of weakness to do my job. When somone is closed, there always welcome to a second appeal by the MH Manager if the first appeal fails. For example if a MH closed somone, and the person closed come online to pleed there inocence but the MH involved finds there either lieing or bassicaly not making sense they have the decision to of course re-open or keep closed. If its a strong case and the appeal of the person closed lies there perhaps kept closed, this is an example btw to point somthing out. Then there welcome to come and speak to the MH Manager which is myself. That is the procedure. So, if somone i know went through this and then asked to speak to me, would i say 'no becuase i no them?' of course not. I would speak to them, not about old times, not about my history with them. Only things that would be discussed would be the case and the evidence of why they were closed. This is what your failing to understand. So the fact i would know them would not effect my judgement. And furball i can of course understand, but i like to think i do my job profestionaly enough to not be influenced by ANYONE i know.

So you don’t find anything wrong with a football referee from Germany refereeing in a WC final between Germany vs someone else? Or what about a murder case where the judge knows the accused or the offended? Do you find nothing wrong with this as you trust the involved people to be professional? There is a reason why referees from the countries involved are left out, as there is a reason why judges who knows the accused tell someone else to take over the case. Its called common sense!

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

Why are you failing to understand it is obvious to spot a fleet donation when somone splits up there fleets in such a way that it isnt a normal suicide? There is no guessing behind it what so ever that you speak of, its called having common sense.

I`m not questioning the obvious cases, I am arguing that we should remove steal ships from the game as we cant expect multihunters to catch the less obvious cases. Its so easy to get away with donating ships to ziks through a round that steal ships should be removed.

[Willzzz]

Originally Posted by Treveler

So you don’t find anything wrong with a football referee from Germany refereeing in a WC final between Germany vs someone else? Or what about a murder case where the judge knows the accused or the offended? Do you find nothing wrong with this as you trust the involved people to be professional? There is a reason why referees from the countries involved are left out, as there is a reason why judges who knows the accused tell someone else to take over the case. Its called common sense!

You amuse me. I can agree to you at some point with this debate you have with those points with Assassin. Although life isnt always perfect like that. For example, All managers in work places know somone they employee, thats called real life. Doesnt stop them from fireing them or moaning at them for doing somthing wrong. Sort of works in this scenario. I think what Assassin is trying to point out here is, he doesnt let anyone effect his decisions other then the evidence in front of him.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Treveler

There is a reason why referees from the countries involved are left out, as there is a reason why judges who knows the accused tell someone else to take over the case. Its called common sense!

It's called having a sense of propriety.

And the only time that happens is at the highest levels of any given system. In amateur football the referee could easily be related to someone on a particular team to use your example. Now do you think it would be more appropriate to equate Planetarion with an Amateur Football League or with the World Cup Final?

Essentially its not viable for Jolt to pay for an independant tribunal into every closing. So we must rely on the best judgement of an unpaid group of volunteers. People who put their time in so other people actually get to play a fair game. Which Planetarion by and large is; it has many faults but I don't think mass-cheating is one of them.

Furthermore, I don't think it's at all reasonable of you to criticise the decision making ability of these people without citing a single case or offering a shred of proof. If it's so obvious to you that PATeam/Multihunters are being roughed up by the PA mafia then maybe you could point out just one incidence of that for those of us who have so clearly been deceived for so long.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

You amuse me.

I`m glad!

I can agree to you at some point with this debate you have with those points with Assassin. Although life isnt always perfect like that. For example, All managers in work places know somone they employee, thats called real life. Doesnt stop them from fireing them or moaning at them for doing somthing wrong. Sort of works in this scenario.

A manager employ ppl he knows and trust to work for them. How you can compare that to a multihunter catching a cheater is beyond me.

And the only time that happens is at the highest levels of any given system. In amateur football the referee could easily be related to someone on a particular team to use your example. Now do you think it would be more appropriate to equate Planetarion with an Amateur Football League or with the World Cup Final?

I do not think its to much to ask for a multihunter to give a case to someone else if he knows the accused if thats what your asking.