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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 07:42   #1
Tietäjä
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Ze Art

So there's been this public discussion regarding music and art. Well, more specifically, they've been bickering about what sort of music is art and what isn't. The music students (read: the geeks that play piano in some acadamy they call university) and other art people (those who draw amazing expressionist dots on paper, post it to the museum of modern art and call it stunning post-modern impressionism) are ferociously standing by their claim that pop music, jazz music, rock music, or any other music spite "classical" music isn't art, but entertainment. In fact, they're going long enough to argue that what actually makes art, is the design intent. If the music is designed to be art, with the idea that the bottom line is to create something which vaguely fills some deeper description of art in concencus of beauty and magnificence, the music is art. The rest of the music is, to them, just trash, and definately not art. In this argument, they feel they're underlining that only classical music is true art.

The Jazz Empire strikes back. The old grey jedis of the Miles Davis school, came then with the response. They feel that jazz is equally artistic to music played by a symphony orchestra. With their logic, they are willing to give up that symphony orchestras and old men with sticks are able to produce musical art, but jazz is equally art. The classical students are fiercely denying this claim, stating that jazz is just another form of popular music. The popular/rock/trash metal fanboys now feel insulted. Their form of art (or satan worship) isn't recognized as art, but as trash. They come up with this strange claim that pretty much any music is art by default. Of course, the Jazz fanatics are denying this because they feel jazz is far superior to the rest of the bunch, and the classical musicians are standing on what seems to be the highest horse of them all, passing judgement what they feel is down.

What's very ridiculous about this claim is the origin of whatever is usually defined as art. Before this modern day morons, nobody was producing art on the sole purpose of merely producing something artistic. The classical wannabe-hotshot Basel-whatever-university student went long enough to quote some long dead mastermusician saying something along the lines that art, musicswise, is the sort of music normal people don't understand and can't enjoy because it's too complicated. No, no, really. The Sixtine Chapel's ceiling wasn't painted just because someone wanted to create art. It was a tribute. Shakespeare didn't write his plays just because he wanted to bring people intelligent and complex art. What I'm trying to say, is, that isn't the whole bottom line of the art thing that people enjoy what they perceive? Societal, philosophical, or whatever thoughts can be added below the surface or complex patterns can be built for the more observing perceptants to notice, but the bottom line is for people to enjoy what the experience. Isn't this the bottom line in entertainment too? What makes classical art so much better than "modern" (art?) "entertainment"?
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 10:05   #2
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Re: Ze Art

Where does this discussion take place? Finland?
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 11:26   #3
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Re: Ze Art

I dont think I've ever heard anyone denying that the best of post-bop jazz is art/serious music; could you name some names to make this discussion more productive?

edit: you can probably argue that composed music is more likely to stand the test of time than improvised though, since its less linked to a partcular historical performance.

Quote:
What I'm trying to say, is, that isn't the whole bottom line of the art thing that people enjoy what they perceive? Societal, philosophical, or whatever thoughts can be added below the surface or complex patterns can be built for the more observing perceptants to notice, but the bottom line is for people to enjoy what the experience
Not really, theres a big difference between enjoying something, and thinking that its good/artistic in an objective sense. There are many pieces of music/books/whatever that I enjoy, yet wouldnt be prepared to ascribe this to anything beyond personal tastes/whim (and similarly theres is lots of good art that I dont enjoy).

Last edited by Nodrog; 22 Aug 2007 at 11:49.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 11:41   #4
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Re: Ze Art

any music can be art if it's good enough and withstands certain parameters such as skill, creativity and so forth. but then i do hold that true for pretty much anything, however aestheticism is really quite bland.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 11:47   #5
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Re: Ze Art

There are many branches of jazz though. Surely stuff like big band music, which can sometimes use a group of people as large as an orchestra to create the music, is on the same level as classical music (in terms of work put in/coordination).
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 11:53   #6
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dont think I've ever heard anyone denying that the best of post-bop jazz is art/serious music; could you name some names to make this discussion more productive?
They're not talking about names. They've just been bickering about it on the papers (well, really, not tabloids, but on Helsingin Sanomat, which'd be the leading newspaper here). It's been now, for two weeks or so, on the level of "my music is art yours isn't".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Not really, theres a big difference between enjoying something, and thinking that its good/artistic in an objective sense. There are many pieces of music/books/whatever that I enjoy, yet wouldnt be prepared to ascribe this to anything beyond personal tastes/whim (and similarly theres is lots of good art that I dont enjoy).
You're ceparating music/books from "art"? Why is a given novel or a musical performance art and another isn't? Because a critic thinks so based on some shady "intellectual" quality? What's that shit about, anyways?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Surely stuff like big band music, which can sometimes use a group of people as large as an orchestra to create the music, is on the same level as classical music (in terms of work put in/coordination).
I probably got you wrong here, because you were talking about something else than I was, or because I was being difficult to understand, but. Does this mean that the amount of work/coordination measures whether it's art or not?
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 12:26   #7
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Re: Ze Art

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
They're not talking about names. They've just been bickering about it on the papers (well, really, not tabloids, but on Helsingin Sanomat, which'd be the leading newspaper here). It's been now, for two weeks or so, on the level of "my music is art yours isn't".
A debate without names is pretty useless; are they trying to compare Beethoven to Kenny G, or John Cage to John Coltrane?

Quote:
You're ceparating music/books from "art"?
Well when I hear 'art', I normally think of painting but thats more just personal connotations; obviously most things can have artistic qualities. I would generally seperate music from literature/poetry though since its inherantly non-representational, but I doubt thats relevant to this thread.

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Why is a given novel or a musical performance art and another isn't?
Generally by possessing qualities which make it good in a sense that goes beyond personal taste, and in a manner in which youd expect most educated experiencers to concur on.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 13:58   #8
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Generally by possessing qualities which make it good in a sense that goes beyond personal taste, and in a manner in which youd expect most educated experiencers to concur on.
It's still so vague and relies on someone's subjective judgement which has little to do with anything but personal taste.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 14:08   #9
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Re: Ze Art

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
It's still so vague and relies on someone's subjective judgement which has little to do with anything but personal taste.
Tastes arent really subjective since theyre generally conditioned by objective factors; it would be expected that the average pereson today would have a personal preference for the sound of rock music over inuit throat singing for example, because of the culture in which they grew up. When it comes to judging art, the most important factors arent really the personally/culturally-relative aspects ("do I prefer the sound of this melody to that one?"), but the sort of principles and attitudes which the work is trying to convey. It doesnt make sense to say that one tune is objectively 'better' than another, but it can be reasonably argued that (eg) music written for the goal of producing intense positive emotional experiences is inherantly better than music for teenage girls to dance to.

Personal taste isnt really the most important thing here; I prefer Belle And Sebastian to Miles Davis but I obviously dont think that the former made better music.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 14:29   #10
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Re: Ze Art

Okay.

Despite your good efforts, I don't think I'll ever quite see the thin line that ceparates the art from the not. I'm forever puzzled.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 15:25   #11
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Re: Ze Art

Art seems to be all human creations with the intention to stimulate human senses and the mind as a whole. I can imagine in that light there might be a huge grey area between what does stimulate these factors. I think it might make more sense to discuss the amount or quality of artistic value which will also give space to snobist and elitist to get confused between the defination of art (which doesn't really exsist) and subjective artistic value of created art. I would say some music holds more artistic value then others which is very subjective for debate.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 15:49   #12
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Re: Ze Art

Well a definition of art isn't that easy

In my own personal opinion art is described as something that the artist creates to express his/her thoughts/feelings/ideas/whatever cause the artist needs to express himself/herself.
If music is only created with the intent to generate money out of it, i won't describe this as art even if it expresses something and is "good". If alot of money is generated out of it, good for the artist, but as long as the art is created while thinking "what do i have to say and how should i do that" ( i used "have to say" instead of "want to say" on purpose) it's art.

Personal taste, effort needed to create it, puplic response or financial success aren't important when defining art.

Well at least that is my opinion about the thing called art.

ps: I can understand that some ignorants don't want good punk music to be art but jazz?
How can anyone say that people like Miles Davis or Glenn Miller didn't create art?
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 17:37   #13
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Re: Ze Art

I'd personally describe art as the man-made creation of something which engenders a human response. Now to get a response the "artist" usually has to express some form of emotion or feeling in their work (the response being a reflection of the emotion/feeling). Now there can be "good" art and "bad" art and i'd say what seperates them is the complexity / subtlety of the product. Subjectivity obviously comes into it. From what was said in the O.P. i'd say that everything being described is Art and the people arguing otherwise in the articles are a bunch of wankers.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 17:57   #14
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
I'd personally describe art as the man-made creation of something which engenders a human response. Now to get a response the "artist" usually has to express some form of emotion or feeling in their work (the response being a reflection of the emotion/feeling). Now there can be "good" art and "bad" art and i'd say what seperates them is the complexity / subtlety of the product.
Does the type of emotion being expressed matter? Is there any significant difference between works which (eg) express emotions one might feel in everyday life (such as love songs or novels about day-to-day life), and works which try to point towards emotions outside this normal range?
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 18:25   #15
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Does the type of emotion being expressed matter? Is there any significant difference between works which (eg) express emotions one might feel in everyday life (such as love songs or novels about day-to-day life), and works which try to point towards emotions outside this normal range?

My view on the subject is "Art is Art is Art" so no, i don't think the feeling being expressed matters (to make it Art or not). Using "unusal" feelings only really impacts on the "success" of the piece / artist. If you appeal to a broader range of people you will be probably be viewed as "better" or more successful. That doesn't necessarily mean that what you have produced is better Art (like i said i feel complexity / technical ability is a better indicator of a piece's merit) it's just you will be rewarded more.

I would say that if marketed properly (i.e. highlighting the use of the unusual - specifically challenging people - making viewing the pieces a dare) the use of unusual feelings as the subject matter can be rewarded to as great an extent as familiar emotions.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 19:09   #16
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Re: Ze Art

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Originally Posted by You Are Gay
My view on the subject is "Art is Art is Art" so no, i don't think the feeling being expressed matters (to make it Art or not). Using "unusal" feelings only really impacts on the "success" of the piece / artist. If you appeal to a broader range of people you will be probably be viewed as "better" or more successful.
Is this really all it comes down to? The artists that most people respond to will generally be the those whose work produces emotions most in line with what a given society regard as being good to experience. But judging art based on this type of popularity is only possible if you believe that the values and attitude of this society are sane and worth aspiring towards, and many artists are explicitly setting out to challenge this.

Quote:
That doesn't necessarily mean that what you have produced is better Art (like i said i feel complexity / technical ability is a better indicator of a piece's merit) it's just you will be rewarded more.
Why should complexity and technical ability be considered an end in itself? The 'photo-realistic' academic paintings characteristic of pre-19th century art no doubt took a lot of skill to produce, but what does this matter if the subject matter is uninspiring/contrived (for a more recent example: Ron Mueck). Composers like Liszt or Ferneyhough wrote exceedlingly complex music, yet people generally dont tend to respond to it with the same level of emotional intensity with which they respond to certain simpler pieces - should it be considered as better art regardless?

Last edited by Nodrog; 22 Aug 2007 at 19:19.
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Unread 22 Aug 2007, 19:29   #17
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Is this really all it comes down to? The artists that most people respond to will generally be the those whose work produces emotions most in line with what a given society regard as being good to experience. But judging art based on this type of popularity is only possible if you believe that the values and attitude of this society are sane and worth aspiring towards, and many artists are explicitly setting out to challenge this.
What people like is not necessarily what sane people should like. It's akin to Economic theory. People should act in completely rational ways. It turns out that in the real world people's actions deviate from the "optimal path". In both instances i feel that this demonstrates a weakness in the models (for instance not putting enough weight to certain criteria) rather than a weakness in society. Society works (or at least it seems to). Popular art is popular because people like it. It doesn't matter whether you think the values people place on that Art are "good" or not. It's the way things are. It doesn't stop other, less popular, Art from being Art though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Why should complexity and technical ability be considered an end in itself? The 'photo-realistic' academic paintings characteristic of pre-19th century art no doubt took a lot of skill to produce, but what does this matter if the subject matter is uninspiring/contrived (for a more recent example: Ron Mueck). People like Liszt or Ferneyhough wrote exceedlingly complex music, yet people generally dont tend to respond to it with the same level of emotional intensity with which they respond to certain simpler pieces - should it be considered as better art regardless?
The complexity / technical ability aspect probably reflects my personal preferences more than anything. Beauty is in symmetry etc. A piece may be complex but if it doesn't "balance" out over the course of e.g. a song then it's no longer beautiful. The more "intelligent" you are the greater your ability to keep track of the tune. When it comes to complex music i suspect that less "intelligent" people think there is no symmetry (as they can't keep track of it) so by the general formula SYMMETRY = BEAUTY they think the piece is gash.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 07:57   #18
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Composers like Liszt or Ferneyhough wrote exceedlingly complex music, yet people generally dont tend to respond to it with the same level of emotional intensity with which they respond to certain simpler pieces - should it be considered as better art regardless?
This is exactly what I've been wondering. The argument used to support the fact that composures (like the mentioned classical ones) are more art than other music is because they're more "complicated" thus at a superficial level more challenging to create and perform. This, again, though, has nothing at all to do with the subjective experience a listener gains - which is, after all, what defines the performance on a deeper level. Now here's the anomaly. The laymen like me think that the subjective experience is what makes something (better, or subjectively more interesting) art. If I see a painting that makes me think, that invokes some feelings inside me, it's a more worthy one that another that just doesn't light up anything. On the other hand, the "professionals" define art not by the thought or experience it provokes (as these are largely subjective concepts), but by the "academic merit" or the technique, and a bunch of very vague abstract terms only "experts" understand "properly". Thus what's superficial to me is deep to them and what's deep to me is superficial to them.

The mentioning of the word marketing brings another interesting question. Does the fact that a "work of art" is marketed make it less art, because it does sometimes seem so. A sociologist might claim that the whole concept of art is also used to divide people into classes. Those of "upper" or "academic" class ceparate themselves from the other people by defining what they find interesting - intellectually challenging - as real art, and the rest just "popular".


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Originally Posted by YAG
In both instances i feel that this demonstrates a weakness in the models (for instance not putting enough weight to certain criteria) rather than a weakness in society.
Yeah. So far there's little modelling that copes with individual (economic) performance as the amount of variables is so vast. Research into things like economics of crime is an interesting approach to attempt to evaluate and model systematic behavior that works against what the traditional models would assume optimal. After all, saying that people deviate from "optimal path" is also includes a large amount of assumptions, because, as seen with the case crime, the optimal path for people in different situations can be different. So what appears to be optimal necessarily isn't. Defining an "optimal" path is easier (seems to me) though, than deciding why something is branded by an "expert" art and something that equally resembles the previous to a layman (music's music, a painting's a painting) isn't.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 08:38   #19
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Re: Ze Art

you have to remember there's a distinct skill in simplicity as well, that sometimes makes a piece of art far stronger than a more complex piece of work. it's not just about effort or work, there's a lot of parameters involved in separating the good from the bad or the great from the good.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 10:30   #20
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Re: Ze Art

Indeed. In the local museum of modern art, there once was a display that consisted (as cliche as it sounds) of paintings with white backgrounds and different black shapes (dots, squares, balls, rectangles) painted on them.

It was the art.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 10:32   #21
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Re: Ze Art

alright i walked into that one but you know what i mean
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 12:56   #22
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Re: Ze Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
This is exactly what I've been wondering. The argument used to support the fact that composures (like the mentioned classical ones) are more art than other music is because they're more "complicated" thus at a superficial level more challenging to create and perform. This, again, though, has nothing at all to do with the subjective experience a listener gains - which is, after all, what defines the performance on a deeper level. Now here's the anomaly. The laymen like me think that the subjective experience is what makes something (better, or subjectively more interesting) art. If I see a painting that makes me think, that invokes some feelings inside me, it's a more worthy one that another that just doesn't light up anything. On the other hand, the "professionals" define art not by the thought or experience it provokes (as these are largely subjective concepts), but by the "academic merit" or the technique, and a bunch of very vague abstract terms only "experts" understand "properly". Thus what's superficial to me is deep to them and what's deep to me is superficial to them.
.
I think thats an overly cynical way of viewing 'professional' critiques, and I suspect your view is being skewed by the current art establishment (which is indeed horrible). I think people who have a significant amount of technical knowledge/skill in a particular discipline are more likely to notice and appreciate the talent involved in creating something. A sculptor might marvel at the technique involved in particular statue becuase he knows far more than the layman about just how hard it was to (eg) create such a realistic looking flow in the model's hair. Someone who has done a lot of ear training and knows a bit about music theory may be more likely to appreciate the intricacies of counterpoint in a Bach fugue that an untrained listener would miss, and so on. None of this is particularly nebulous and it doesnt necessarily involve a bunch of art students sitting around and talking about how the large green patch in a Rothko painting relates to capitalist hegemony or whatever.

With a lot of current art critics its admittedly more nebulous since pieces are often evaluated primarilly based on the political views they represent rather than on their artistic merit; a 'layman' might say that a particular piece is good because it makes him feel nice, whereas a certain breed of art critic will say that the same piece is bad because it ultimately aims only to produce nice feelings rather than challenging political institutions (bread and circuses etc). However I dont think this means that 'professional' critique as a whole is worthless; you just need to look into the standards which particular critics are using to judge pieces in order to decide the extent to which their views are worth listening to. Good critique is extremely valuable imo since it can open your eyes/ears/mind to things that you previously missed.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Aug 2007 at 14:00.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 13:51   #23
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Re: Ze Art

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think thats an overly cynical way of viewing 'professional' critiques, and I suspect your view is being skewed by the current art establishment (which is indeed horrible).
Some quite valid points, and this one struck the most. Maybe it's in me and my lack of respect towards the "modern art scheme" which often appears as crybabies and want to be recognized artist emos whose greatest achievements are to generate a giant news paper wrapped in a ball or photograph a denizen of people in a lake and call it art. Whereas art is defined by the elitistic "I'm above the layman world". You're probably right, it does make me smile when I think about a modern artist that suffers the pain of creation generating random dots on a paper in his studio on a downtown penthouse.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 00:26   #24
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Re: Ze Art

I think art's about communication. Anything can be considered art if it is motivated by a desire for dialogue between artist and audience. The best art occurs when the artist is able to communicate most clearly, lucidly (ie. however complex it is, great art must be comprehensible), and most originally/distinctly.

Bear in mind this is coming from someone who is more familar with literary theory than its counterparts in music/art etc.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 00:52   #25
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Re: Ze Art

I can't imagine a situation where a distinction between art and non-art would make any real practical sense. Trying to elevate one set of cultural artefacts above another (on non-subjective grounds) is a familiar project but unless you're going to refer to something like "historical importance" it all seems to be in vain.

I don't think there is a legitimate definition of art (as distinct from a bunch of other stuff) but I'd say that if I do have a criteria it's the same criteria as I'd attempt to use for selecting cultural products to go into an about-to-be-launched unmanned space timecapsule in "humanity-about-to-be-wiped out" scenario. (Assuming physical copies only, no electronic copies of texts/music/etc). Therefore, to be glib, it is those items which best demonstrate and express the many facets of humanity. Of course, such criteria obviously cannot help but be subjective (although not as limited as 'stuff I like').
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