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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:34   #1
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Selfishness v Society

I have never in my life 'owned' a television.

Three years at ox and I never needed one. I came to london and lived with a chap (i didn't know him before but I knew 'of' him through our social group EDIT: I'm saying he's an etonian not that he's a poof). No television there either.

After a year and a half I move to ken. There is a television there. For which I was grateful. Because by this time I was recieving briefs with met police cctv tapes and i needed to watch them. There was however no aerial.

Then i moved to my cottage which does have a tv. I confess I was enthralled. but I still wouldn't argue the 'benefits' of a tv.

I move to my flat.

After several months attempting to get 'the internet' down the phone I throw my hands in the air (notice a telewest broadband thing attached to the wall in my sitting room and decide to 'go with them').

Now as part of this internet acquiring deal I also had to subscribe to cable television (by this point i didn't give a toss as long as i got online).

So they very kindly gave me a 'box' thing for television when they installed my cable internet. It sits beside me here upon the floor. I did not 'want' it, but i accepted it's necessity.

Now why tell you all this?

Because the box counts as a tv reciever for the purposes of the licensing laws. Accordingly I (who has never owned and has no intention to buy) a television have therefore paid my tv licence fee.

This is a law which I feel is unjust in my particular circumstances BUT I still obey it

I wish that those people who feel that in their personal circumstances the laws relating to drugs ought not apply to them acted with as much decency as me.

My selfish interests in not having to pay a tv licence are no different from the selfish interests of drug users who wish to consume illeagal drugs.

I can manage to fight my selfish desires, obey the law (and then perhaps campaign for change in a law I see as unjust).

I believe that those who wish for a change in the law regarding drugs ought to fight their own selfish impulses
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:40   #2
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Re: Selfishness v Society

I think the main difference in the way we view these situations (assuming that you are correct and your analogy does follow for drugs, which we will say it does for the sake of argument) is that you view the law as something that has to be followed, and many others, including myself, view it merely as something that has to be taken into account. Not an absolute of any kind, I don't deal in absolutes.

It's good that you paid your TV licence for no good reason though, redistribution of wealth and all that
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:43   #3
Yahwe
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I think the main difference in the way we view these situations (assuming that you are correct and your analogy does follow for drugs, which we will say it does for the sake of argument) is that you view the law as something that has to be followed, and many others, including myself, view it merely as something that has to be taken into account. Not an absolute of any kind, I don't deal in absolutes.

It's good that you paid your TV licence for no good reason though, redistribution of wealth and all that
As a citizen of a nation which has the rule of law you enjoy innumerable benefits.

what you do is to enjoy those benefits, those rights, but never accept your duties.

You disapply your duties because you are lazy and selfish.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:44   #4
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Re: Selfishness v Society

I disapply my duties because I am an individual first and a member of society second.

It's a question of precedence.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:49   #5
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I disapply my duties because I am an individual first and a member of society second.

It's a question of precedence.
actually 'precedence' has nothing to do with it (go look the word up)

You are not an individual.

You are a member of a society.

By luck and good fortune, you were born into one of the most liberal societies upon this planet.

What you (and all of those who break the law out of shelfish desire) do not realise is that duties are as important as rights.

Having been born into and having enjoyed the luxury of rights all of your life, you don't quite understand the beauty of what you have. You take rights for granted.

And because you take rights for granted you decide to give in to selfish impulses and ignore your duties
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:55   #6
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Re: Selfishness v Society

I looked up precedence on dictionary.com, the first definition seems to be correct for the usage I employed. I won't paste it though, as pasting dictionary definitions is shit.

Anyway, as for the rest of your argument... I do see what you mean, and I am a member of society. But to say I am not an individual is in conflict with everything I believe about myself, perhaps I am wrong, but even if I were, there is no other reasonable conclusion for me to reach.

I do believe that duties are good, and neccessary for society, and I fulfil my duties wherever I can, whether they be legal or social or whatever. However, when the law seems to be so utterly wrong on something (e.g drugs ) then I see no reason to follow it simply because it is the law, or my "duty" to do so.

I would prefer if drugs were legalised however, as the only thing which I see as morally negative which happens as a result of me taking drugs is where the money goes. i.e to bad people (debatable, but whatever) and none of it to taxes. If your law supported my habits and made money from it, I would have no objection whatsoever. The problem comes when it tells me not to do something while offering no reason, there is no reason to follow society blindly, everything must be judged according to the individual and conclusions reached to the best of the individuals abilities. That's all I am doing.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 03:13   #7
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow

Anyway, as for the rest of your argument... I do see what you mean, and I am a member of society. But to say I am not an individual is in conflict with everything I believe about myself, perhaps I am wrong, but even if I were, there is no other reasonable conclusion for me to reach.
if being a member of society is in conflict with your belief system then change your belief system

you might believe you are a dragon and reality might conflict with that. I would advise agreeing with reality.

the reasonable conclusion for you to reach is that you should obey the law. what you claim is a perception of 'unreasonableness' is simply that your selfish desires disagree with the law.

When a human being is lucky enough to be born into a society who's laws really can be changed. Then that human really ought to obey the laws BUT WHILE DOING SO TRY TO CHANGE THEM.

You do no such thing.

You break laws out of a selfish desire. You don't even try to get the laws changed. You are too lazy. You believe that you should have whatever you want.

(i have cut the bit of your post where you speak about 'morality'. Morality is irrelevant. You use arguments of morality to 'justify' your breaking the law.)

When you live in a society that empowers you to change the law. There can be no reason other than self interest and laziness to break the existing laws.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 03:37   #8
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
if being a member of society is in conflict with your belief system then change your belief system

you might believe you are a dragon and reality might conflict with that. I would advise agreeing with reality.

the reasonable conclusion for you to reach is that you should obey the law. what you claim is a perception of 'unreasonableness' is simply that your selfish desires disagree with the law.[/u][/b]
If I am not harming anyone, then I don't see me as doing anything wrong. It all comes down to the view I have of myself, if I simply want to be a cog in a wheel then I can obey the laws, get on with my life, get a good job, meet a nice girl, have a family and die in my 3 score and 10. I may well do all those things, it's what society wants me to do and society is mostly right; in my humble opinion of course. However, it does not follow that I should do what society tells me to, especially when I'm not harming it, that's just rubbish.

My selfish desires do disagree with the law, yes, but the law is wrong. I have argued that plenty of times before, not worth going into detail again here. The question here is if the law is wrong what do we do? You follow it regardless of merit, I apply reason to it. Whilst my course seems the more rational, I'm the one who could get locked up, what a kerazy world.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
When a human being is lucky enough to be born into a society who's laws really can be changed. Then that human really ought to obey the laws BUT WHILE DOING SO TRY TO CHANGE THEM.

You do no such thing.

You break laws out of a selfish desire. You don't even try to get the laws changed. You are too lazy. You believe that you should have whatever you want.[/u][/b]
Think of the practicalities here, how would I go about getting the law changed? Join a pressure group? I certainly will, one day, perhaps soon. I will wait until I move back to London in any case. I won't expect to make any kind of palpable difference, but it's the trying that matters. Also, if we were going to change things in society surely a more moral (theres that word again ) position to take would be to combat world poverty etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
(i have cut the bit of your post where you speak about 'morality'. Morality is irrelevant. You use arguments of morality to 'justify' your breaking the law.)

When you live in a society that empowers you to change the law. There can be no reason other than self interest and laziness to break the existing laws.
It's the level of empowerment that matters, I have virtually no power to actually change the law and yet it impinges upon my life. Looking at this from the perspective of an individual (and how can any other perspective be as persuasive?) this is wrong. So I ignore the law.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 03:46   #9
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Re: Selfishness v Society

It isn't a crime to be selfish. Whats your point?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 03:52   #10
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
If I am not harming anyone, then I don't see me as doing anything wrong. It all comes down to the view I have of myself, if I simply want to be a cog in a wheel then I can obey the laws, get on with my life, get a good job, meet a nice girl, have a family and die in my 3 score and 10.
how you see yourself is irrelevent.

it is only because you were lucky enough to be born where you were born that you even consider such a silly argument.

The only reason you can enjoy freedoms is because you live where you live. The only reason you talk in terms of 'I' is because you enjoy rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
My selfish desires do disagree with the law, yes, but the law is wrong. I have argued that plenty of times before, not worth going into detail again here. The question here is if the law is wrong what do we do? You follow it regardless of merit, I apply reason to it. Whilst my course seems the more rational, I'm the one who could get locked up, what a kerazy world.
IF the law is wrong then you change it.

Women got the vote.

Perhaps you think my argument silly? I would suggest that that is because you are lazy and selfish.

You do not 'apply reason' to the law. Rather you treat laws as though they were a buffet.

You pick and choose which ones you want to obey

You say "I am not harming anyone". That is too simplistic. When you are (and i say again) LUCKY ENOUGH to live in a society where you can change the law and have your voice heard. How do you justify breaking the law?

How can you justify it? How would it be different from me failing to buy a tv licence when i own no television???

I wouldn't 'hurt' anyone by not paying for a tv licence.

You need to learn to appreciate the things you take for granted.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 03:57   #11
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Re: Selfishness v Society

I just explained how I couldn't change the law, if you can find a way of me doing it quickly then by all means explain it to me, I am all ears. In my short life I certainly won't see any drug laws being relaxed for a long while, and legalisation is decades off at the very least. This is going to be almost certainly true whatever I do. It's all well and good being able to change the law theoretically, and it's a noble pursuit, but I am not going to let the best years of my life slip by without enjoying them to the full.

I noticed you ignored the parts of my post that mentioned the practicalities of changing the law. I wonder why this was.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:04   #12
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I just explained how I couldn't change the law, if you can find a way of me doing it quickly
i'm afraid democracy means you don't get 'special powers'.

again this is your selfishness coming through. the legitimate process (you claim) is not quick enough for you.

boo bloody hoo!

you have the power to change the law of the country you live in. when so many people do not, the fact that you think it takes too long is a shit argument.

eg. compare

For how many years have you broken the law on drugs?
For how many years have you campaigned for drug law reform?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:12   #13
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Re: Selfishness v Society

incidentally, ive only being doing drugs for just over 2 years, so not that long in any case

it taking too long is not a shit argument, its a pragmatic one. We don't all have the benefit of immortality. How long do you think it would take me to get the laws on drugs changed?

Incidentally, every time I say how great drugs are here, and everywhere else is me "campaigning" for drugs law changes effectively. Spreading the arguments on a public forum, and not just this one, but many.

Also

"boo bloody hoo" isn't a great argument duder.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:17   #14
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
incidentally, ive only being doing drugs for just over 2 years, so not that long in any case

it taking too long is not a shit argument, its a pragmatic one. We don't all have the benefit of immortality. How long do you think it would take me to get the laws on drugs changed?

Incidentally, every time I say how great drugs are here, and everywhere else is me "campaigning" for drugs law changes effectively. Spreading the arguments on a public forum, and not just this one, but many.

Also

"boo bloody hoo" isn't a great argument duder.
for your information

http://www.cjbooks.demon.co.uk/suffrage.htm

From no vote to lady astor in how short a time?

there is no need to break the law when you have the power to change it.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:20   #15
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Re: Selfishness v Society

There are many differences between drug legalisation and the suffragette movement, obvious ones, and they mostly make drug legalisation harder.

Do you want me to point them out?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:22   #16
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
There are many differences between drug legalisation and the suffragette movement,
obvious ones,
yes.

They had a point

for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
and they mostly make drug legalisation harder.

Do you want me to point them out?
by all means.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:29   #17
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Well, firstly, and most obviously, there were far more women than there are drug users. This makes it easier for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.

Secondly, it is a "bigger issue", that is to say, more people cared about it, it had higher billing on most people who wanted to change it "lists of things wrong with society"

Thirdly, it was far easier for the people who make decisions to empathise and sympathise with. They all at least knew women, most of them loved women I would imagine. People in power today do not use drugs and I doubt they associate that much with those who do.

Fourthly, the media (or at least the tabloids) are ridiculously anti drugs, I cannot believe there was not a decent amount of support for the suffragette movement in the media.

Fifthly, there had just been the biggest war the world had ever known, society had a greater feeling of solidarity, and women had recently proved they could work as well as men in the factories. This highlighted the absurdity of the law.

Sixthly, drug users are a hidden group, women are not. You do not know which people use drugs but you can tell pretty easily which people are women. This made it easier for people to support it as they could more easily relate it to their personal experiences and contacts.

There, six off the top of my head, although the first and second ones should have been enough.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:36   #18
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Well, firstly, and most obviously, there were far more women than there are drug users. This makes it easier for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.
says whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Secondly, it is a "bigger issue", that is to say, more people cared about it, it had higher billing on most people who wanted to change it "lists of things wrong with society"
no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Thirdly, it was far easier for the people who make decisions to empathise and sympathise with. They all at least knew women, most of them loved women I would imagine. People in power today do not use drugs and I doubt they associate that much with those who do.
no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Fourthly, the media (or at least the tabloids) are ridiculously anti drugs, I cannot believe there was not a decent amount of support for the suffragette movement in the media.
they were much more anti women having the vote (the british library can supply your research needs here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Fifthly, there had just been the biggest war the world had ever known, society had a greater feeling of solidarity, and women had recently proved they could work as well as men in the factories. This highlighted the absurdity of the law.
no.
(example: 'the treatment of women during the second world war')

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Sixthly, drug users are a hidden group, women are not. You do not know which people use drugs but you can tell pretty easily which people are women. This made it easier for people to support it as they could more easily relate it to their personal experiences and contacts.
why are they hidden?

do they hide because:
a) they selfishly indulge, take drugs and break the law (and pray that they don't get caught)
OR
b) they can't be bothered to even try changing the law
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:38   #19
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Re: Selfishness v Society

forget 4 if you like, I wasn't certain about that.

The others you havent argued against.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:45   #20
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
forget 4 if you like, I wasn't certain about that.

The others you havent argued against.
because they are much much smaller arguments than the suffragettes faced.

many of those suffragettes died for their cause.

yet i see no such dedication by drug users.

You do not campaign. You do bugger all. Why should I accept your point of view?

I was born (as you were) into a free society. I have been given democratic powers (as have we all).

I fail to see an argunent (any argunent) for why I shouldn't view drug users as (lazy, selfish) cum.

EDIT: since you didn't bother. Ms Pankhurst began campaigning in 1903. Lady Astor became the first female MP in 1919.

so 16 years for real change to happen. Have you tried obeying the law for 16 years deepflow? have you even tried obeying it for 16 weeks???
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:47   #21
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Society was in a position to change the law when it did, this seems fairly self evident.

I see no evidence whatsoever that society is in a similar position regarding drug use.

Saying that suffragettes died for their cause proves little, except the dedication of a few, exceptional cases prove nothing, its the general mood of society that does.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:52   #22
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Society was in a position to change the law when it did, this seems fairly self evident.

I see no evidence whatsoever that society is in a similar position regarding drug use.

Saying that suffragettes died for their cause proves little, except the dedication of a few, exceptional cases prove nothing, its the general mood of society that does.
society obeyed it's laws

until it changed them

I question your unpardonable arrogance, in assuming that you are better than the law.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:54   #23
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Society was in a position to change the law when it did, this seems fairly self evident.
no it seems fairly tautological
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:55   #24
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
society obeyed it's laws

until it changed them

I question your unpardonable arrogance, in assuming that you are better than the law.
I question your humility in assuming the law is better than you.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:56   #25
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no it seems fairly tautological
Saying it's tautological means nothing in this context, it certainly doesn't advance your "argument" or even begin to refute mine.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:57   #26
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I question your humility in assuming the law is better than you.
ad hominem.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 04:58   #27
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Saying it's tautological means nothing in this context, it certainly doesn't advance your "argument" or even begin to refute mine.
how can one refute a tautology?

to even try to would be assuming your argument 'made sense'
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:03   #28
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Re: Selfishness v Society

I reply to an ad hominem with another ad hominem and you say "ad hominem"... you also say that something is tautological when it clearly is and that makes no difference to the argument.

Its not about refutation, it's about you throwing around phrases that make no sense in the context of the discussion. I'm going to assume now that you will just troll the rest of this thread. Shame, it started out as quite interesting.

In any case, goodnight, I am going to bed now.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:03   #29
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Re: Selfishness v Society

The real counter to my argument was clear from the start.

All a drug user need do is say thus:

1) I did not choose to be born in the free country which I was born in
2) I do not care what happens to (said) country
3) Yes I am selfish. All I care about is myself. 'bite me'

that was the obvious argument open to those who take drugs.

Is the truth so unpalatable???
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:06   #30
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by rep
read the threads BEFORE you post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
long rambling post

...I believe that those who wish for a change in the law regarding drugs ought to fight their own selfish impulses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo
It isn't a crime to be selfish. Whats your point?
But youuu guuuys breaking the law is so wrong it gives me headaches and i have to write long posts about how i went to oxford and i live somewhere expensive and you're just sooooo selfish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo
It isn't a crime to be selfish. Whats your point?


Beyond an incredibly banal 'don't break the law' what is your point? you think its selfish?

Well **** YOU, it isn't illegal to be selfish.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:09   #31
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Beyond an incredibly banal 'don't break the law' what is your point?
i can't follow the rest of your argument.

but if you think saying "do not break the law" is a banal statement then perhaps this thread isn't for you
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:17   #32
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Re: Selfishness v Society

If you think writing an elaborate and obuse thread which can be summarised as 'don't break the law' isn't an incredibly banal (and vain) thing to do then i question the oxford education you recieved (you did go to oxford didn't you? i can't quite remember if you mentioned it).

If you don't think saying 'don't break the law' is a banal statement to make perhaps your chosen profession isn't for you.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:19   #33
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
If you think writing an elaborate and obuse thread which can be summarised as 'don't break the law' isn't an incredibly banal (and vain) thing to do then i question the oxford education you recieved (you did go to oxford didn't you? i can't quite remember if you mentioned it).

If you don't think saying 'don't break the law' is a banal statement to make perhaps your chosen profession isn't for you.
I don't mean to offend.

But i'm afraid I only speak english
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:29   #34
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Oh its fine, i didn't mean to offend either i usually only speak to people who've at least attained degree level.

I was giving a lecture to some 21 year olds about why they shouldn't insert a pencil up each nostril and headbang the table, I informed them that if i could stop myself taking a pair of scissors and snipping my septum i damn well expected them to be able to keep their noses intact.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:32   #35
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Oh its fine, i didn't mean to offend either i usually only speak to people who've at least attained degree level.

I was giving a lecture to some 21 year olds about why they shouldn't insert a pencil up each nostril and headbang the table, I informed them that if i could stop myself taking a pair of scissors and snipping my septum i damn well expected them to be able to keep their noses intact.
oh you lecture?

where?

(which of us looks silly.)
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 05:40   #36
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Re: Selfishness v Society

The little den by the common, if you keep walking past the monkey bars its just behind the hedge.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 07:05   #37
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Re: Selfishness v Society

There is no rule of law; only the rule of men.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 08:28   #38
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Out of interest, do you think people who engaged in homosexual acts when it was illegal were selfish oiks who only cared for themselves too*?

* = Obviously a good number of people did campaign for the law to be changed - I think Oscar Wilde fits into this category. But you seem to be saying that people who engage in their desired activities prior to the law being changed ought to fight their impulses.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 11:23   #39
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
As a citizen of a nation which has the rule of law you enjoy innumerable benefits.
what you do is to enjoy those benefits, those rights, but never accept your duties.
You disapply your duties because you are lazy and selfish.
I am sure your licence money will prevent more repeats from the BBC...

Isnt it a lawyers job (sometimes a passion) to know how far they can get away with the law? After all if you get your client off on a technicality then the job is done and you have won your case. Even if you know they are guilty as sin.

Also that there are OAP pensioners being taken to court over council tax because it is choice between that and hypothermia, who have contributed towards society all their days and that is their thanks.

I can see why people might be put off.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:07   #40
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Re: Selfishness v Society

But the technicality is the law.

Do you see.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:08   #41
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Re: Selfishness v Society

reversing argument:
Those who merely accept and follow an unjust law are selfish as they do so out of fear of reprisals, not out of any sense of obligation or duty.
(same as the argument that all who do not obey a law do so out of selfish reasons)

Those who choose to oppose it, despite the fear of punishment, are performing their duty as members of society by trying to show the regime that their policy is wrong.
(many constitutions include points about the people's duty to stand-up to injustice from the governing body)
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:46   #42
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I'm saying he's an etonian not that he's a poof
Comedy "I thought they were one and the same" option

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
So they very kindly gave me a 'box' thing for television when they installed my cable internet. [...] the box counts as a tv reciever for the purposes of the licensing laws. Accordingly I (who has never owned and has no intention to buy) a television have therefore paid my tv licence fee.
Can't you disconnect it and shove it in a cupboard? I have a TV card in my computer and a TV aerial in the flat, but as I can get no usable signal whatsoever, the aerial is boxed away in my wardrobe. So far as I'm concerned this exempts me from paying the license, and the nice lady on the phone at the TV license place seemed to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
"drugs"
I agree. I don't have too much of a problem with people who smoke a bit of weed now and again, as it doesn't tend to impact too much on society in terms of having to provide healthcare later etc. I do however resent funding the habits of many junkies who are on benefits because they're too dependant to get jobs, and funding the cleanup when they go into withdrawl and end up in A&E.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 17:28   #43
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisto
reversing argument:
Those who merely accept and follow an unjust law are selfish as they do so out of fear of reprisals, not out of any sense of obligation or duty.
That doesn't reverse the argument at all, it just makes a complementary (although in my view, false as you have stated it) point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisto
Those who choose to oppose it, despite the fear of punishment, are performing their duty as members of society by trying to show the regime that their policy is wrong.
(many constitutions include points about the people's duty to stand-up to injustice from the governing body)
You would be spectacularly naive to assign that motive to drug users without more evidence. In any case,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
drug users are a hidden group
- about the only point on which he and Yahwe agreed.

Just because protest is legitimate does not mean all forms of protest are legitimate.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 18:39   #44
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Re: Selfishness v Society

I've only read the first post, but your point is stupid. Paying £100 a year is nothing (especially for someone apparently wealthy yourself), whereas permanently refraining from something you enjoy is a fairly big sacrifice to make. A better example would be asking whether youd comply with the law if homosexual sex was to be criminalised tomorrow, or alcohol was banned, or something equally absurd.

edit: not that I give a shit what you would personally do in any particular situation. Anecdotes tend to be philosophically uninteresting.


edit2: the rest of the thread is equally silly; a given person cannot change laws. Social institutions will always preexist individuals , and generally change in response to cultural inertia rather than through the will of any particular person. From a practical standpoint, I can no more alter social laws that I can alter the law of gravity. The social facts existing at any given time period should, when deciding on day-to-day strategy, be taken as metaphysically given, with the responses to them chosen accordingly. Ironically, appealing to the discourse of individuality here only serves to promote and legitimise collective injustice.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Feb 2006 at 18:55.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 18:46   #45
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Re: Selfishness v Society

another lahwe thread. :crymeariver:
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 19:14   #46
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Exclamation Re: Selfishness v Society

On the general question, I think people have the right to disobey unjust laws. Of course, they must also accept the consequences. Rosa Parks' refusal to obey the law and sit in the back of the bus galvanized the US civil rights movement in a way that years of lobbying for change never did. Sometimes a single act of civil disobedience can have a profound effect (usually, though, you just get steamrolled :/).


Thoreau (Civil Disobedience) makes an interesting point:

"Unjust laws exist; shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? Men generally, under such a government as this, think that they ought to wait until they have persuaded the majority to alter them. They think that, if they should resist, the remedy would be worse than the evil. But it is the fault of the government itself that the remedy is worse than the evil. It makes it worse. Why is it not more apt to anticipate and provide for reform? Why does it not cherish its wise minority? Why does it cry and resist before it is hurt? Why does it not encourage its citizens to be on the alert to point out its faults, and do better than it would have them? Why does it always crucify Christ, and excommunicate Copernicus and Luther, and pronounce Washington and Franklin rebels?"
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 19:27   #47
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Governance in any form is a compromise. It is a necessary ordering force. Pardoxically, it the actuality of the individual that necessitates this ordering force, and yet government cannot, and does not, work for the indivudual, but for society as a collective.

PS. Surely Dante has something to say on this, being our resident communist?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 20:15   #48
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
As a citizen of a nation which has the rule of law you enjoy innumerable benefits.

what you do is to enjoy those benefits, those rights, but never accept your duties.

You disapply your duties because you are lazy and selfish.
I don't know much about your background but I can imagine it stands in stark contrast to mine. For whatever reason we weren't born with the same status; should I be more, less or equally grateful for my situation?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 20:21   #49
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
A given person cannot change laws. Social institutions will always preexist individuals , and generally change in response to cultural inertia rather than through the will of any particular person. From a practical standpoint, I can no more alter social laws that I can alter the law of gravity. The social facts existing at any given time period should, when deciding on day-to-day strategy, be taken as metaphysically given, with the responses to them chosen accordingly.
I don't think anybody is suggesting that a single individual is or should be able to reorder a society without assistance. In this respect your comparison with gravity is beside the point; in general implication it is misleading.

Why treat social facts as metaphysically given?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 20:22   #50
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Re: Selfishness v Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephor
I don't know much about your background but I can imagine it stands in stark contrast to mine. For whatever reason we weren't born with the same status; should I be more, less or equally grateful for my situation?
the question is:

do you, or do you not posess a TV?

realise it's your duty to have one.








something like that. i'm not the one with a law-degree here. :crymeariver:
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