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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 14:15   #1
All Systems Go
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Oh that wacky Pope!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5347876.stm

What makes more sense than quoting a derogatory comment about Islam from 400 years ago criticising its vioence.

Stupidity, controversy and hypocracy in one go.

Now people are shouting 'Death to the Pope!' and I am one of them, although the others are just jumping on the bandwagon.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 16:49   #2
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

In Indonesia people get indoctrinated that they shouldnt help christians
Even if their house burns down, unless they convert to being a muslim

Cartoons shown to children how they will die from boiling water over their heads if they don't learn Koran properly

Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to the Islam, womans raped

Pakistan churches get burned down

And then i'm not even talking about the middle-east

I suppose we are just misinterpreting those signals..

Maybe it's better if we simply kill that wacky controverse hypocrit pope too
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Last edited by Alessio; 15 Sep 2006 at 16:56.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:02   #3
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
In Indonesia people get indoctrinated that they shouldnt help christians
Even if their house burns down, unless they convert to being a muslim

Cartoons shown to children how they will die from boiling water over their heads if they don't learn Koran properly

Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to the Islam, womans raped

Pakistan churches get burned down

And then i'm not even talking about the middle-east

I suppose we are just misinterpreting those signals..

Maybe it's better if we simply kill that wacky controverse hypocrit pope too

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about but the comment
Quote:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
is actually wrong.

As with nearly all religions, it's not really consistent in what it says but

Quote:
Originally Posted by al-Baqarah:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:16   #4
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Now people are shouting 'Death to the Pope!' and I am one of them, although the others are just jumping on the bandwagon.
He's quite old, so there's always a chance he'll be gone soon Not that I hope he dies or anything.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:25   #5
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
He's quite old, so there's always a chance he'll be gone soon Not that I hope he dies or anything.
He's only an intermediate Pope, to give them a few years to get a better one.

I don't really care if he dies (although he is quite reactionary) as he'll only be replaced by another one. I'm for putting the whole religious institution to death.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:26   #6
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about but the comment is actually wrong.
Its just that I got annoyed when he said he wanted the pope dead

I'm not a religious person but I think it's quite hypocrit to only bash him for making one comment
I believe in freedom of speech and if he wants to make such a statement then he has every right to imo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As with nearly all religions, it's not really consistent in what it says but
In alot of muslims countries they follow a different Islamitic stream then here
Kinda simulair to how their quite a few Christian streams here that interpret the bible differently
I don't know enough about the Islam to judge by that one quote if they believe that or not
but actions speak bookparts
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:27   #7
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
I suppose we are just misinterpreting those signals..
By the same tack, the same examples show that people are capable of such acts, and therefore all people are evil. QED.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:39   #8
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

is it worth pointing out that historically speaking christianity is responsible for far more suffering than any other religion?
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:40   #9
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
is it worth pointing out that historically speaking christianity is responsible for far more suffering than any other religion?
To say that religion "is responsible for" most of the things that have been done in its name is fairly simplistic, to say the least.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:43   #10
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

ok then, the vatican itself is responsible for the death of so many innocents the mind boggles as to how its representitives can condemn the actions of others.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:46   #11
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
is it worth pointing out that historically speaking christianity is responsible for far more suffering than any other religion?
Is it worth pointing out that the current generation is not responsible for that?
Or do you believe you can inherit sins?

I do know where people are suffering right now

My mother is from Indonesia, it's a former dutch colony
And Ive heard and read about how military ships burn christian villages down on those islands
whenever theirs a conflict between Christians and Muslims
And you barely hear anything about that
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:51   #12
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
To say that religion "is responsible for" most of the things that have been done in its name is fairly simplistic, to say the least.
how about "religion is the main cause of problems"?
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:55   #13
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

I'm gonna leave this thread for what it is, thats proberbly better
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:59   #14
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
how about "religion is the main cause of problems"?

How about "religion, or rather the difference between two or more religions, is used as a reason to inflict hurt and suffering on people rather than just coming out with it and admitting their land/wealth/oil/sheep is the real reason."

Or

"My imaginary god is better then yours! Nah nah!"
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 18:00   #15
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

note that i didn't say that muslims were a forward looking peaceful faith, only that relative to catholocism they are a small problem.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 18:30   #16
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

IMHO the pope just got a dose of "his" (meaning the catholic churches) own medicine. Even a citation of a theological question causes a huge uproar and results in members of the other religion _demanding_ apologies. It doesnt matter that his topic was a different one, it doesnt matter that he twice mentioned that he only cited somebody, he is probably realising now what kind of censorship "not hurting religious feelings of others" is truely meaning.

Two or three weeks ago there where 2 lebanese students who planted bombs in two german trains. They where "radicalised" in germany and their main motivation for doing these bombings was that german newspapers re-printed some of the mohammed cartoons which they took as an insult to islam and part of the western war against islam. Initially they wanted to execute the bombings during the german soccer world championship some weeks ago. The bombs size was approximately the same to the London tube bombings, they where fully functional and it was only a minor technical mistake which stopped the bombs from exploding.

So how do you live in peace with somebody who takes a discussion about theological questions as an insult or an "act of war" which means its ok to bomb a few dozen citizens? A lot of the official muslim reactions remind me on the cartoon case - it seems unnecessary for them to read what the pope said and in which context as long as you can be upset and demand apologies in public while a cheering crowd backs you for beeing the defender of their faith.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 18:32   #17
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
note that i didn't say that muslims were a forward looking peaceful faith, only that relative to catholocism they are a small problem.
What?
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 18:34   #18
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Exclamation Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
how about "religion is the main cause of problems"?
I see religion more as an incidental than a cause. I'd divide the world along pro-reason and anti-reason lines with religion being just one of the many anti-reason variants. Many non-religious people/cultures/states don't seem to be all that much better, tbh.

I thought the Pope's speech was interesting, being about how to reconcile reason and faith (the remarks about Islam were fairly brief and incidental). I think he's wrong about being able to reconcile the two, but it's the right question to be asking.

[edit]Heh:
"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence." --Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam.
[/edit]
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Last edited by Tactitus; 15 Sep 2006 at 19:51.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 19:42   #19
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
how about "religion is the main cause of problems"?
Christians have in the past been as guilty of such extremism as is Osama Bin Laden and his fanatical followers. Atheistic Marxism, Communism and Nazism are secular ideologies that are also clearly guilty of extremism in the process of pursuing their agendas.

I had a quick read of the article The Pope Stressing that they were not his own words; he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire.

Not sure what he is trying to do, but I think he is just trying to be too clever for his own good. Does anyone know who the emperor was? and what context the comments where made?

I hope this does not lead to what happened regarding the Muslim cartoons, with them threatening people and burning down embassies if they don't get apology.

But I am more concerned with the comments made about the "west" Those are far worse.

In the UK we seem to have one of the most negative media's in the world.

We get quite a few programs to increase our understanding of "the real Islam"
But it be nice to see some similar programs and expos about ohter religions and the west. I wonder if they have those programs elsewhere like say in Indonesia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
Is it worth pointing out that the current generation is not responsible for that?
Or do you believe you can inherit sins?

I do know where people are suffering right now

My mother is from Indonesia, it's a former Dutch colony
And I’ve heard and read about how military ships burn Christian villages down on those islands
Whenever theirs a conflict between Christians and Muslims
And you barely hear anything about that
That's shocking alessio, but in the UK we only get news about the UK, USA, Iraq and Afghanistan I've not heard of these ohter mystical places. The only way we can find out about ohter things is by the web and documentaries.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 20:08   #20
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zokka
and what context the comments where made?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...09_06_pope.pdf is the full, english, text of the speech. It's nothing.

This international storm appears to be the equvilient of criticising someone for saying that all the jews should be killed after making a speech about the historical impact of National Socialism in which he quoted Hitler's remarks on the "jewish problem".

It's just the same as the "controversy" over the extremely dull cartoons; it only happened because people wanted to cause controversy, or wanted to use it as propaganda against the people who came out with the things in the first place.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 02:52   #21
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zokka
I had a quick read of the article The Pope Stressing that they were not his own words; he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire.

Not sure what he is trying to do, but I think he is just trying to be too clever for his own good. Does anyone know who the emperor was? and what context the comments where made?
Yes, i do.

Manuel II Paleologus (1391-1425) ruled an 'empire' that was little more than the city of Constantinople (where the population had declined to considerably less than 100,000 and where there were farms and open fields inside the walls) and a few villages in southern Greece. His territory was completely surrounded, openly threatened and frequently attacked by Empire of the Ottoman Turks. Manuels city was all that was left of Byzantium, an empire which had once included the entire mediterranean basin from Spain through North Africa, Palestine, Syria, Turkey and included nearly all of the Balkans as well as Southern Italy and Sicily. In short, most of the territory of the Roman Empire, indeed, the Byzantines considered themselves to be The Roman Empire.

Now,

(i) see if you can guess what had happened to the rest of Byzantium's territory.

(ii) Then, see if you can guess how this occurred.

(iii) and finally try and guess who by.

Answers (i) Conquered. (ii) Violently. (iii) By Muslims.

This history (and the fact that he had been a hostage in The Turkish Sultans court prior to his accession) probably gave Manuel a pretty good insight into the true nature of Islam or at least into how it was being interpreted.

Last edited by NibNub; 21 Sep 2006 at 02:58.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 10:23   #22
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
Is it worth pointing out that the current generation is not responsible for that?
Or do you believe you can inherit sins?
That actually is the very essence of christianity!
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 11:07   #23
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
That actually is the very essence of christianity!
No, it isn't. It is part of Catholic doctrine though (Original Sin, to be precise).
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 12:04   #24
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
No, it isn't. It is part of Catholic doctrine though (Original Sin, to be precise).
It is not limited to catholic theology. The concept is of course also used in orthodox as well as protestant thinking. The original sin seperates mankind from god and Jesus as god's son was the only one to pass this barrier.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 12:34   #25
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
It is not limited to catholic theology.
Yes and no. The concept of the original sin is obviously not unique to catholicism, but for the inherited sin to still apply to people today? That pretty much is.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 12:51   #26
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Yes and no. The concept of the original sin is obviously not unique to catholicism, but for the inherited sin to still apply to people today? That pretty much is.
Yes, it also applies today and since Calvin and Luther confirmed it it is not so likely to change. I hate Wiki as a source but I am too lazy to find a better one

The theological conception and what "modern" christians actually believe or what's important for them are not so much related however. At least from what I experienced.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 13:05   #27
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

I say we should solve all this trouble by sending everyone some nukes. From above, of course.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 13:18   #28
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
Yes, it also applies today and since Calvin and Luther confirmed it it is not so likely to change. I hate Wiki as a source but I am too lazy to find a better one
The Church of England does not follow the doctrine of original sin in the way you seem to understand it. Luther's theological position has very little sway in England and Calvin has essentially none.Continental protestantism can't be lumped together with British protestantism, to do so causes misunderstanding.

Original sin was fully absolved by the crucifiction of Christ. It isn't 'inherited' in the sense you state.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 14:23   #29
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The Church of England does not follow the doctrine of original sin in the way you seem to understand it. Luther's theological position has very little sway in England and Calvin has essentially none.Continental protestantism can't be lumped together with British protestantism, to do so causes misunderstanding.
Yes I neglected the views of the very important Church of England.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Original sin was fully absolved by the crucifiction of Christ. It isn't 'inherited' in the sense you state.
Christ was free of the original sin for he was born by a virgin. That's as far as there is some consensus in Christian theology. But that's about it. Your statement is wildly discussed and one of the major differences between Christian beliefs.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 14:26   #30
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
Christ was free of the original sin for he was born by a virgin. That's as far as there is some consensus in Christian theology.
Except Catholocism, which states that Christ was free of Original Sin because of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 14:48   #31
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Except Catholocism, which states that Christ was free of Original Sin because of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
Some believe that Mary also enjoyed what is called immaculate conception. However, that doesn't change my original statement that Jesus was free from original sin because he was born by a virgin.

You could, however, cause some turmoil in your local School of Theology by asking if Mary's mother was also of immaculate conception and, if not, what sexual position would they think appropriate for the procreation of the mother of the Blessed Virgin.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 19:19   #32
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
Yes I neglected the views of the very important Church of England.
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/index.cfm

Yes. It was stupid of you to forget the Church of England. Very stupid indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
Christ was free of the original sin for he was born by a virgin. That's as far as there is some consensus in Christian theology. But that's about it. Your statement is wildly discussed and one of the major differences between Christian beliefs.
That was MY ****ING POINT

YOU said that the doctrine of original sin was the same as the concept of inheriting sin. I demonstrated that for tens of millions of Anglicans around the globe this simply is not true.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 20:47   #33
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NibNub
Yes, i do.

Manuel II Paleologus (1391-1425) ruled an 'empire' that was little more than the city of Constantinople (where the population had declined to considerably less than 100,000 and where there were farms and open fields inside the walls) and a few villages in southern Greece. His territory was completely surrounded, openly threatened and frequently attacked by Empire of the Ottoman Turks. Manuels city was all that was left of Byzantium, an empire which had once included the entire mediterranean basin from Spain through North Africa, Palestine, Syria, Turkey and included nearly all of the Balkans as well as Southern Italy and Sicily. In short, most of the territory of the Roman Empire, indeed, the Byzantines considered themselves to be The Roman Empire.

Now,

(i) see if you can guess what had happened to the rest of Byzantium's territory.

(ii) Then, see if you can guess how this occurred.

(iii) and finally try and guess who by.

Answers (i) Conquered. (ii) Violently. (iii) By Muslims.

This history (and the fact that he had been a hostage in The Turkish Sultans court prior to his accession) probably gave Manuel a pretty good insight into the true nature of Islam or at least into how it was being interpreted.
This is funny because the Roman Empire never fought expansionist wars with anyone and in fact one day they just woke up and found out they ruled a quarter of the world's population. Same with South America, one day the Pope just decided to draw a line in a map and everyone down there was cheering for hours but then some of them had to be shot to check whether our guns were working and it was all downhill from there until the aliens invaded and we had chocolate ****ing cake.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 21:09   #34
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

now you ad hominem an empire.

Is abuse of language your new hobby?
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 21:21   #35
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NibNub
Yes, i do.

Manuel II Paleologus (1391-1425) ruled an 'empire' that was little more than the city of Constantinople (where the population had declined to considerably less than 100,000 and where there were farms and open fields inside the walls) and a few villages in southern Greece. His territory was completely surrounded, openly threatened and frequently attacked by Empire of the Ottoman Turks.
Now, if we're going to make present-day judgements based on who happened to be mean to the Byzantine Empire, we can't entirely forget the fact that the reason Constantinople was in such a state was almost entirely due to the Fourth Crusade. Although most people date the decline of the Byzantine Empire from the defeat at Manzikert (1078AD?), the loss (and violent sacking) of their capital city was what put the last nail in the coffin. If we can infer from Mehmet II's capture of Constantinople that Muslims are violent aggressors who spread their faith by the sword, then we can infer from the Fourth Crusade that Westerners are corrupt religious fanatics whose Middle Eastern adventures are prone to end in bloodshed, with causing untold damage through unintended consequences.

Or, perhaps, we might grow up a bit and realise that history is history, and tells us precious little about how we should expect people to behave today. Who cares if Islam was spread by the sword in the past? It wasn't the only religion to be so, and it does not detract from the fact that we find such behaviour unacceptable today.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 23:12   #36
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Christ was free of the original sin for he was born by a virgin. That's as far as there is some consensus in Christian theology
i thought the original sin was done by adam and eve .. which makes everyone tainted by it unless Mary had no parents and was created by god to birth his son.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 23:52   #37
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
now you ad hominem an empire.
No I didn't, get out.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 23:59   #38
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

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Unread 22 Sep 2006, 09:53   #39
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/index.cfm

Yes. It was stupid of you to forget the Church of England. Very stupid indeed.
Although it might be hard for your anglocentrical perspective but the Church of England is a small minority within the Christian world. They probably wouldn't even qualify for the NHS employer's positive diversity program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
YOU said that the doctrine of original sin was the same as the concept of inheriting sin. I demonstrated that for tens of millions of Anglicans around the globe this simply is not true.
That I never said. I said that the concept of inheriting sin is one of the pillars of Christianity. A generalization. Shockingly, this statement does not apply to all of the Christian beliefs. You pointed out that the CoE and the Christian Fundamentalist Bulgogi Church of Pusan do believe something different. Thank you!
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[23:33] <@Divine> hmm I think I may have a new GF aswell
[23:33] <@Divine> but dunno yet if I want a new GF so early in the round
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Unread 22 Sep 2006, 13:18   #40
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
Although it might be hard for your anglocentrical perspective but the Church of England is a small minority within the Christian world. They probably wouldn't even qualify for the NHS employer's positive diversity program.
Thank you!
that's just not true. why didn't you click the link? Anglicanism is actually quite large.
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Unread 22 Sep 2006, 13:48   #41
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
that's just not true. why didn't you click the link? Anglicanism is actually quite large.
Ofc I clicked the link! Since I never dealt with the CoE/Anglican topic before I was quite curious. There are more Anglicans than British on this world. However, in regard to the total number of Christians (> 2bn) the Anglicans are a minority (around 80 million).
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[23:33] <@Divine> hmm I think I may have a new GF aswell
[23:33] <@Divine> but dunno yet if I want a new GF so early in the round
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Unread 22 Sep 2006, 14:20   #42
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

The Anglican denomination is actually one of the biggest christian denominations. It's just that there's an incredibly **** off large number of roman catholics
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Unread 23 Sep 2006, 13:18   #43
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

@ topic:
nothing is wrong about quoting that spreading the word of jesus/mohammed by violence isnt the right way.
i also think violence is bad.
and well, jesus = love and mohammed = hate, is also right.
**** mohammed (gently)!
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 01:02   #44
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Certainly the only thing wrong with the situation is that the Pope said something stupid. Clearly burning churchs, nuns, etc. is a reasonable reaction.

Isn't there a passage in the Bible that says something to the effect of "and the sins of the fathers shall be visited on the sons."
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 01:15   #45
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Other Guy
and well, jesus = love and mohammed = hate, is also right.
Thanks for that dingus, I'm sure glad you sorted out thousands of years of theological debate for us there.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 01:45   #46
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Re: Oh that wacky Pope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Isn't there a passage in the Bible that says something to the effect of "and the sins of the fathers shall be visited on the sons."
"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," is one such example, Exodus 20:5.

However, Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Conclusive, I think you'll agree!
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