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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 04:47   #101
s|k
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by pig
We did with elvis.
You've never been to Las Vegas, obviously.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 04:59   #102
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

No I havent, however I once went to church and the priest seemed to be more interested in me rather than the bible (I was 10) ((I was a dashing 10 year old so who can blame him))
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 05:21   #103
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by pig
No I havent, however I once went to church and the priest seemed to be more interested in me rather than the bible (I was 10) ((I was a dashing 10 year old so who can blame him))
Elvis was dashing too.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 07:55   #104
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I don't give a **** about your symbolism. Tradition? Is there a Christian tradition of posting on forums?
Of course you don't care. You hate and you are quite vocal and repulsive in the way you do it. You don't present a logical argument other than "Your Crap" and "I'm right and your wrong ****ing Christian."
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Originally Posted by s|k
Here he is, thinking he's being persecuted for his beliefs again, and not for being generally ignorant. Incidentally, the witches were burned by Christians.
I am attacked by the likes of you for my beliefs. I use the phrase "Witch Hunt" to mean an unfounded accusation and attack and an almost mass histeria regarding belief in a greater power. Not the sad history of radical so-called Christians in early New-England.
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Originally Posted by s|k
I predict that this thread will end with it being either locked, and/or Travler banned (hopefully). By the time it is all through, I predict the man will have thouroughly have 0 credibility left, and look like the biggest jackass to grace GD since TSM.
If I do get banned then my work on these forums will be done and I will no longer be held responsible for your or anyone else's soul. As it stands now I am given the daunting task of finding those who are lost and bringing them home. If that make me a jackass then fine. I believe what I am saying about God. If God was evil and selfish then I would not be sharing the "Good News" and people without faith would be left on their own to suffer.
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Originally Posted by s|k
You see what Travler is doing here is inventing his own obtuse understanding of what he's read in Popular Science magazines, with what's in the bible. just making it up as he goes along. He's mixing science and biblical myth, and has completely gone off the deep end here, abandoned the creation story and created some sort of amalgamation of his own in order to explain one of these fallible 'proofs.'
I never said I was a creationist. The bible depicts God creating Man but never goes into the detail of that creation. The only clue we get is the "Dust of the Earth." I tend to think God is complex enough to create a system of evolution and adaptation.
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Originally Posted by s|k
The moment Travler began his counter argument and began talking about Kelvins, the big ban, the expansion of space, and using what 'scientists' have said as evidence, he's shot himself in the foot. Now how does any of that fit in with creation story Travler? Are you just going to pick and chose the observations in science that suit whatever you have to say at any particular point in time, or are you embracing science, giving it credence? If so, let's talk about the formation of the solar system. Let's talk about 7 days of creation, where there was night then day then a firmament and whatever the **** else the gobbelty bullshit genesis is rife with. Let's talk about women being made from a rib, let's talk about being swallowed by a fish for three days, let's talk about 'stopping the sun.' Hmm k.
I started out believing in the Big Bang long before I believed there was a God. I just was not satisfied with the Hydrogen In Rush Idea. I thought It was unfounded and pure speculation. How could the entire universe collapse entirely into one convenience package without multiple bangs occuring due to density overload before all could come together as one. Much to perfect for science.
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Originally Posted by s|k
Don't use science. You don't believe in it, and you don't understand it. You're just making shit up as you go along.
As opposed to your non-scientific rants. You have presented nothing to this forum other than hatred and an obvious loathing for the Christians and the Bible. Take your doctrine of hate somewhere else. Personally I thing science is mans way of ultimately understanding the universe and God. There is so much still to learn. I wonder if we have even seen 1% of it yet.
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Originally Posted by s|k
I submit to you that without chickens there can be no eggs, and without eggs there can be no chickens. The chicken, cannot be without an egg, and an egg, cannot exist without a chicken. However, because both chickens and eggs exist, at some point there must have been a half chicken half egg creature which spawned from an eggplant.
This is an example of all your "logical" arguments. Pure heckler.
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Originally Posted by s|k
I submit to you that this first cause is my penis, which existed before all else.
That would explain why your such a ****. Get some therapy before you give yourself an aneurysm.

Hmm, seems you have figured out the first part of my argument. Well here is point #3 from St. Thomas then.

Today I will focus on the distinction between the two objects in our universe: contingent beings and necessary beings.
We know from history and experience that all existing things change in one way or another. Thus every tangible thing in the world is conditional; that is, it may or may not exist. So every being which is contingent can not have the reason of its existence in itself, but in another, that is, in something which is not contingent. Hence there must exist a necessary being. In other words, 1) Contingent beings are caused. 2) Not every being can be contingent regressively (from day 2; every effect demands a cause). 3) There must exist a being which is absolutely necessary to cause contingent beings. 4) This “absolute necessary” being is God.

If you want a better explaination then you might want to read this argument from Peter Kreeft.

Mr_L Mentioned String Theory. I find this to be the one scientific theory that best explains God and the Bible. String Theory Basics

So how does string theory relate to the Bible?
John 1:1 (King James Version)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Genesis 1:3 (King James Version)
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Basically God spoke everything into existance using these strings. You can read more about this idea if your interested.

Can you feel the love yet?
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 08:09   #105
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
We know from history and experience that all existing things change in one way or another. Thus every tangible thing in the world is conditional; that is, it may or may not exist. So every being which is contingent can not have the reason of its existence in itself, but in another, that is, in something which is not contingent. Hence there must exist a necessary being. In other words, 1) Contingent beings are caused. 2) Not every being can be contingent regressively (from day 2; every effect demands a cause). 3) There must exist a being which is absolutely necessary to cause contingent beings. 4) This “absolute necessary” being is God.
This is the exact same argument as your first one, except that youve replaced a scientifically respectable concept (causation) with a philosophical fiction (necessity/contingency). Its invalid for the exact same reasons - if you start with the idea that everything is 'contingent' /caused, then you cannot validly end up with the conclusion that there is something necessary/uncaused.

edit: String theory has nothing to do with God or religion. I'm assuming the site you linked to is a joke because noone could possibly write that in a serious manner (although admittedly Biblical scripture is probably the strongest evidence in support of string theory which has so far been produced).

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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 08:35   #106
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by Travler
stuff
Are you mormon or jehovah's witness? If so, that would seriously explain a lot of things for me =/
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 10:36   #107
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I note that Travler did not actually attempt to respond to any of the criticisms of his argument. He chose only to respond to one of s|k's (very silly) ad homenium attacks with another ad homenium attack, and then takes some time out to further justify this absurd thread in light of "his own belief's".

He has spent no time responding to the points brought up earlier, this thread is simply an excuse for him to copy large tracts from the Summa Theologiae - tracts that have been picked apart by philosophers much smarter than he, for centuries without yeilding anything like a 'conclusive proof' for the existance of God. Nor even a mildly believable one.

And lo' and behold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Now children, tomorrows infallible undeniable argument for the existance of God is called "The Argument from Contingency". It has just about as many holes as swiss cheese, but let us endure it nonetheless.
One objection simply rests on the statement that Contingent things can be eternal. If so, there is no time at which these things fail to exist. If this is correct, then there need not be a time at which nothing existed.

To put the argument differently, thing's change, but the objects that create those thing's do not change, they remain eternally.

These objects are not conditional, in that they always exist, you cannot break them down, you cannot destroy them, and you cannot seperate them.

If such things exist, then the argument is refuted, there need not be any "Nessecary being" at all. Etneral Contingent things need no reason for their existance, they have always existed.

What are these foundational things? Well you might call them Atoms, but then we know they can be divided further into subatomic particles, and so on. Nevertheless we accept that such particles cannot be created or destroyed; or if we want to be a little more up to date we might say that a quantity of "mass-energy" is conserved.

If we accept that eternally contingent things exist, then there cannot be a time at which they do not exist, and there is no reason for thinking that the Universe required a "Nessecary being" to get the ball rolling.

Unless of course that nessecary 'event' is called the Big Bang, in which case we are talking about Physics; not some hokum two bit theory from a thousand years ago.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 10:38   #108
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
(although admittedly Biblical scripture is probably the strongest evidence in support of string theory which has so far been produced).
Haha.

Also, this thread was better when Pig brought up Elvis.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 11:26   #109
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

In the beginning there were strings, and the strings jiggled to the left a bit and lo, god was created, and the strings saw that he was mediocre and the strings were disappointed.
In the middle there were strings, and the strings jiggled to the right a bit and lo, the universe was created, and the strings saw that it had jessica alba and the strings were pleased.
In the end there were strings, and the strings jiggled to the right and the left at the same time and lo, the ontological argument was created, and the strings cried themselves to sleep at night.
In the after there was god, the universe and the ontological argument and the strings were in the pub drowning their sorrows because a 33% success ratio is really inefficient.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 11:30   #110
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

What is the strings favourite tipple?
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 11:39   #111
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
However you should bear in mind I'm part of the IRC anti-christian conspiracy which is actively victimising Travler for his religious beliefs rather than for his terrible posts.
where do I sign up?
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 11:50   #112
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

13 Jul 2006, 01:09 this was his only relevant post to date.
14 Jul 2006, 07:30 hmmm finally a response, but counter arguement is to flame
15 Jul 2006, 07:55 turning into a flame contest now

i believe he has stopped being sensible before he even got started. close thread
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 15:34   #113
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

f5L;,5TRRTT
UK6U7YEDFGKIIOPKOLP[PJKHJK,OIPESATR5




My seventeen month old daughter typed the above with her foot. I believe it may be the most well thought out response to this thread yet.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 15:42   #114
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Wouldnt suprise me.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 16:23   #115
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
If I do get banned then my work on these forums will be done and I will no longer be held responsible for your or anyone else's soul.
Hes never going to get banned with that kind of burden.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 17:22   #116
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Aren't these supposed to be infallible arguments? Those already stated are clearly fallible. Can someone edit the name of this thread appropriately?

Also, I'd like to hereby release you from all responbibility for my soul. Where do I sign?
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 17:49   #117
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

i doubt it given idi's thread /
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 17:52   #118
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

You're all laughing now, but one day Travler and Jesus will be standing side by side giving you an ascance 'o rly' look as you try to enter the pearly gates.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 17:56   #119
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You're all laughing now, but one day Travler and Jesus will be standing side by side giving you an ascance 'o rly' look as you try to enter the pearly gates.
and jesus had damn well better have those 5 denari he owes me.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 21:33   #120
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

clearly hollywood is the progenitor of all.

perhaps travler should worship it
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:00   #121
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Soul is so 70'ies anyways. The cool kids listen to rap nowadays
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:03   #122
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

spaniards/potugese sometimes call themselves jesus, are we meant to call them jesus or yeh-zus ho-sus or what?
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:11   #123
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
Soul is so 70'ies anyways. The cool kids listen to rap nowadays
Try some Jazz Funk.

The mixture. The cerebral musicality of Jazz mixed with the visceral groove of funk. Imagine that.

What a combo.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:14   #124
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I feel the need to point out my sig
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:18   #125
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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I feel the need to point out my sig
I went to a The Roots gig once, and there I met a guy who gave me a ticket to Heaven by express!
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:20   #126
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:22   #127
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

so is there any reason travler has made only 2 posts in this thread, and ignored the logical arguments against his "proofs"?
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:47   #128
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
so is there any reason travler has made only 2 posts in this thread, and ignored the logical arguments against his "proofs"?
I think you'll find he hasn't made two posts, he has in fact made three.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 22:53   #129
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think you'll find he hasn't made two posts, he has in fact made three.
I think you'll find mark that one of the three which you eroneously count as a post was the thread starter and as such was not made 'in the thread'

(we call this 'holding up the mirror' and it is supposed to be a learning exercise mark.)
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 23:05   #130
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
so is there any reason travler has made only 2 posts in this thread, and ignored the logical arguments against his "proofs"?
It's a great strategy actually to not get into specific debates about your claims. You'll get broiled up into details, get distracted and side tracked, and come out looking worse off for it. Right now if someone were only to read Travler's posts, and not anyone else's you'd think he was doing a good job of holding his own. It's actually a (now famous) strategy used in politics by Karl Rove. So even though Travler is incorrect on just about every point, his own steadfast denial of it and refusal to jump into debates about details is working for him. You see what we have here is a divided forum. Some people steadfastly support Travler, and others are opposed. His supporters are going to support him regardless of whether he's right or not about issues, but they might distance themselves from him if he starts stumbling all over himself, maybe. It's like Karl Rove says: if you get on the defensive, you've already lost.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 08:23   #131
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
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Some people steadfastly support Travler.
Who?
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 08:32   #132
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I think you'll find mark that one of the three which you eroneously count as a post was the thread starter and as such was not made 'in the thread'
I think you'll find that my post was highlighting that Travler's not responding to posts, and general arsing about, was so obvious that the only possible reply to the post was to quibble over the number of posts.

Oh, and your suggestion that the thread does not include the first post, or that it isn't a "post" (it's called the "first post", for christ's sake) is fairly demented. He has replied twice: he has made three posts.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 09:04   #133
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
There isn't a God.
Hard Atheist sentiment with no basis in logical thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
The law of physics that states “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” depicts the operational manner of our universe. Therefore, it is possible that anything could be both mover and the thing moved, or that it could be able to move itself. Everything, consequently, is moved by something. Therefore, it is not necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by something---and this, I submit to you, is because of physics.
Everything is able to move under its own power? So gravity, heat energy, and binding force are just icing on the cake then? What you are proposing is called perpetual motion and according to the laws of physics and the laws of thermodynamics perpetual motion is simply not possible in the macroscopic world
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DAY 1 BABY AND YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN OWNED!
Subject statement.

Sorry But I am bit busy today being bashed by a few GD posters while playing in the 24 hour Planetarion World Cup Competition. With about 4 hours to go I think jer is going to win highest scoring planet and his galaxy 1:2 will win the WC unless something drastic occurs to prevent this.


In addition to how we’ve already been able to argue the existence of God, we can continue to use scientific laws and the natural order of the universe to also show that there is a God.

The “Garden Allegory” demonstrates this proof well. For instance, if in a jungle there is a patch of land resembling a garden that is cultivated, planted and weeded, then there must be a gardener. In other words, things that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent. Therefore, there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan because order does not appear randomly in chaos. Take, for example, Fibonacci's number, or pi. These numbers appear all over the natural world. Take also, for example, the law of gravity or the truths of mathematics. These axioms are all a natural order which humans do not create. Therefore, these laws must imply a lawmaker. This Lawmaker can be no other than God Himself.
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god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 09:56   #134
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Jesus Christ I had no Idea! Well my friend you have certainly succeeded in converting me with this latest infallible argument of yours. You must be correct, goodness me there must be an intelligent designer.

A garden with no weeds! Gravity! The Truths of Mathematics! Pi!

Therefore God.

What logic! (?)
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 10:00   #135
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Do numbers exist? Numbers are of a human creation, not a "God".











PS: There were no numbers in the "Garden of Eden"; only plants and weed. Fact.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 10:10   #136
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Hard Atheist sentiment with no basis in logical thought.
Actually, it's the only logical standpoint.

Logic tells us that empiricism is the way forward, and, empirically, there is no god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Everything is able to move under its own power?
Quite a few things start to move under their own volition. Take a proton, for example, which decays into a neutron, a positron and a neutrino. The proton may well be stationary, but the resulting particles aren't. The "first mover" statement is invalid because it presumes this kind of interaction cannot exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
So gravity, heat energy, and binding force are just icing on the cake then?
Obviously this isn't a counterargument to what you posted either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
What you are proposing is called perpetual motion
Actually, it isn't. He doesn't imply a 100% efficiency in his interactions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
and according to the laws of physics and the laws of thermodynamics perpetual motion is simply not possible in the macroscopic world
Physics is grand isn't it, especially when we ignore the bits that are in direct opposition to the bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The “Garden Allegory” demonstrates this proof well. For instance, if in a jungle there is a patch of land resembling a garden that is cultivated, planted and weeded, then there must be a gardener.
Doesn't follow. And if you're trying to compare this universe (and, perhaps, evolution?) to a well organised garden, you're laughably off. The natural world is a terrible hodgepodge of random entities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
In other words, things that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent.
Again, incorrect. Simple logic arrives us at evolution (which is a counter example to your claim) purely based upon the assumption that there is random genetic change.

Which there is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Take, for example, Fibonacci's number, or pi.
I hope you mean the golden ratio, phi, by "Fibonacci's number", although noone ever calls it that.

The Fibonnaci numbers are an infinite sequence.

Pi occurs all over the place, but that's mostly an artifact of the measuring of angles in radians; pi wouldn't occur in many things if this wasn't the case, and the constant of proportionalities would change accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Take also, for example, the law of gravity or the truths of mathematics.
There is no "law of gravity", and mathematics is an inevitabilitiy of the logical system under which it is constructed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
These axioms are all a natural order which humans do not create.
Misuse of "axioms", and no scientific theory is an axiom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Therefore, these laws must imply a lawmaker. This Lawmaker can be no other than God Himself.
Neither of these bits follows. It's the classic "A->B, therefore God" fallacies.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you're just copy and pasting these from somewhere, as you appear not to have a clue what you're talking about.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 10:18   #137
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I think you`re right.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 11:12   #138
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

One thing that Travler is close to hitting upon is the whole entropy thing. As far as I know, at some point entropy seemed incompatible with evolutionary theory. I'm pretty sure the two have been reconciled now: as far as I can tell from some garbled guff on Wikipedia, a lot of people don't like entropy because of the difficulty of defining a 'closed system' (in which it should theoretically occur).

Anyone particularly clued up in their thermodynamics?
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 11:19   #139
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

MrL_JaKiri, why do you even bother to respond? Read his posts, does he seem reasonable? I don't understand why people feel the need to try and reason with a person who has his fingers in his ears. Do you like talking to walls much? The man's clearly acting like a sociopath with a troubled worldview, hanging onto his indefensible belief for all its worth. Even if Travler were not a Christian, he'd still be an asshole, commandeering conversations with self importance, he would still be unreasonable, he would still be a jackass. He would probably be a Sony fanboy or a fanatical sports enthusiast. It's a personality issue, I think.

I believe that ultimately, whatever we end up believing does rest in uncertainty, because whatever we as humans end up observing, and up inferring from those observations, it's not ever going to be enough. It will not explain our lives, or our experience of our lives rather, entirely. I think at somepoint in our lives, many of us recognize that answers are not going to happen, and then at point, and any point in the future when we consider it again, we make a choice. We chose to make sense out of it anyway, but it will always be in our minds that we don't know. What is death? What is life? Forget what happened before the big bang, what happened before I was born? Where was I? How did I begin? Where did I come from. And oh my god, I'm going end someday, return to that state, or nonstate, I was in before my birth. And that's ****ing scary to me sometimes. Only sometimes, because other times I'm not thinking about it.

Experience seems fleeting, somehow it is so incredibly visceral and real, but then as time passes and you see your actions become a second old, a minute old, a day, a week, a month, years old, it can seem like a dream. Somewhere inbetween my fears and my frustrations I get a sense of something permanent and reassuring. Something big, something powerful, and stable. Sometimes I think that is God. That is where I find God. It's not out there in that world I am experiencing, but it is internal, and more than likely it is just something within me and not anything 'real' or of the 'real world.'

My understanding of God is not challenged by the existence of dinosaur bones, it is not troubled by evolution, or by the lack of design in the universe. It is not affected by anything I hear or see or touch, because it is 100% internal. There is a gulf between the observer in us, and the observation. In order for it to be bridged it requires something like a suspension of disbelief. We accept what we see, it comes so natural that you have to realize that you are doing it. What the f*ck is a human being? Two arms, two feet, two eyes, a nose and it seems right. You look in the mirror and you don't see some strange gooey organism/monster that moves on it's own, you see a familiar shape, a familiar face. That sense of familiarity with our world, with what we are is based on what? Look at the way we depict monsters and ghosts, and aliens. The shapes, and the design, it's all unfamiliar. It's not the two arms, it's not the two legs, it's something else. My immediate point is we are comfortable with 'familiarity' but that familiarity we have with our experience, with ourselves is based on our willingness to accept what we see. And I don't. It's not solipism. I'm not adopting the point of view that only I exist and that nothing I observe is real, I'm simply not crossing that gulf blindly. And sometimes, this thing I feel inside, this thing I call God, it seems more real to me than anything I might observe with my five senses on the other side of this gulf. It is with me, part of the observer.

The ultimate point is, that Travler goes too far. Like so many other fanatical 'my way or no way' single minded people in this world, I see a lack of introspection, I see an inability to discern, to question. Travler's experience may be as real to him as mine is to me, but his mistake is that he brings it to places where it doesn't work. He requires that what is observed be reconciled with his God, nay that his God explains what he is observing. It's a mistake, I think.

I know my ideas are unlearned, I haven''t read philosophy yet, I read history and fiction. So excuse me if whatever I've said is offensive to you or obtuse, it probably is.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 11:31   #140
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
at some point entropy seemed incompatible with our theory of evolution.
So let's just throw the whole thing out and pick up a bible...in fact whenever we observe an incongruity, let's just shelve the ol' hypothetico deductive and find out what Travler has to say, because he's on to something. He's breaking new intellectual ground.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:02   #141
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by s|k
MrL_JaKiri, why do you even bother to respond?
The construction of a decent argument is its own reward.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:03   #142
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
As far as I know, at some point entropy seemed incompatible with evolutionary theory. I'm pretty sure the two have been reconciled now: as far as I can tell from some garbled guff on Wikipedia, a lot of people don't like entropy because of the difficulty of defining a 'closed system' (in which it should theoretically occur).

Anyone particularly clued up in their thermodynamics?
There is no inconsistency between thermodynamics and evolution. The only people to have claimed otherwise have misunderstood either one or the other.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:23   #143
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_Jakiri

Quite a few things start to move under their own volition. Take a proton, for example, which decays into a neutron, a positron and a neutrino. The proton may well be stationary, but the resulting particles aren't. The "first mover" statement is invalid because it presumes this kind of interaction cannot exist.
This is a circular argument really; you can only interpret quantum physics in this manner if you already have an a priori commitment to the possibility of indeterminacy, so you cant really hold it up as being empirical evidence against causality.

Quote:
There is no "law of gravity", and mathematics is an inevitabilitiy of the logical system under which it is constructed.
Only to the extent that the logical system was constructed in an ad hoc manner to be capable of reproducing known results, which is a bit vacuous.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:34   #144
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I have seen the light now. Im enlightened so much that i was struck with a vision of the infallible proof in day 5.

Day 5 – 40 Days of Infallible Proofs
An author named Dean Overman wrote a book entitled “A Case Against Accident and Self-Organization.” In his book, Overman gives compelling evidence that self-organization is a mathematical impossibility. He states that it is a far greater leap of faith, to believe in self-organization than it is to believe in God. He makes this claim based on mathematical facts. Sir Francis Hoyle calculated that in order for a single enzyme to be in the right place at the right time to create life is a chance of one in ten to the twentieth power. However, upon further thought and analysis, Hoyle realized that there are two thousand enzymes in even the simplest living cells. These enzymes are each made up of nine amino acids. The probability of the correct sequence of amino acids gathering to form all of the two thousand individual enzymes, and then them all being together at the right place in the right time is one in ten to the forty thousandth power. Mathematicians consider a probability of ten to the fiftieth power a mathematical impossibility. So to believe that life could originate from non-life by accident takes a level of believing far beyond mathematically possible odds, to the point where Hoyle calls it a "miracle.” Therefore, since life could not have, mathematically, been accidentally formed, there must have been a creator. This creator is God.

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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:42   #145
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Well no wonder he couldn't respond constructively to any of the arguments in this thread.

The lackwit dosn't even understand what he is copying and pasting. (I'm shocked)

This thread ought to be closed.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:51   #146
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I do hope he's not getting them from that Yahoo Answers page because it looks awfully like there're only 20 =(
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 12:54   #147
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

This thread ought to be closed.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 13:05   #148
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Only to the extent that the logical system was constructed in an ad hoc manner to be capable of reproducing known results, which is a bit vacuous.
What? this is a tad confusing since im not sure whether this discussion is about mathematics in a the sense of a physical reality we see around us or maths as a system of thought (which can be completely conceptual) regardless the 'logical system' is founded around axioms.
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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 13:22   #149
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

The axiomisation of either a particular branch of mathematics (eg geometry/group theory), or of mathematics as a whole (eg ZFC) normally occurs long after the major results have been discovered through largely non-logical means such as geometric arguments, heuristics, 'intuition', etc The axioms are then explicitly deliberately designed to be capable of reproducing the already known results. It's not like someone sat down one day and created logic and an axiom system and then mathematicians went off and deduced results from it - that isnt how mathematical discoveries are generally made. The formalisation normally occurs after the results, not before; mathematical logic wasnt even invented till the 19th century, yet mathematians had largely managed fine without it (with a few notable problems).

Its backwards to say that mathematics is true because it follows from axioms; the axioms (and formal system) were invented after the fact in order to ground results which were largely already known.

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Unread 16 Jul 2006, 13:31   #150
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This is a circular argument really; you can only interpret quantum physics in this manner if you already have an a priori commitment to the possibility of indeterminacy, so you cant really hold it up as being empirical evidence against causality..
I'm not talking about indeterminancy, I'm talking about things moving when before things did not.
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