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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 13:14   #1
Ste
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History Lesson in US Middle East Policy

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Quote:
Had the United States not overthrown Iran’s constitutional government in 1953 and replaced it with the dictatorial Shah, there would not have been the Islamic Revolution and its bloody aftermath.
...
Had the United States not supported the extremist Hekmatyar faction and instead backed efforts by the United Nations and others to bring a peaceful settlement to the Soviet occupation and civil war, Afghanistan could have a established a stable government many years earlier and the Taliban would have never come to power.
...
In 1956, Great Britain and France – with the support of Israel – tried to impose a regime change in Egypt against an Arab nationalist dictator whom they likened to Adolf Hitler. The United States came to the defense of Gamal Abdul-Nasser’s regime, claiming that despite its opposition to Nasser’s policies and its close alliance with the Britain, France and Israel, the U.S. government felt obliged to uphold international law. Just as the United States had to speak out against the simultaneous Soviet invasion of Hungary, it was argued, the U.S. must speak out against such aggression even when it involves a U.S. ally. The United States has never been more popular in the Middle East before or since.
a lot of other examples in there. I found it quite interesting but wondered what the counter arguments were...
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 13:23   #2
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Is there a theme to these?

ah:
Quote:
A History Lesson: U.S. Intervention in the Middle East Has Always Ended Up Being a Disaster for American Interests
the headline.

It was just kinder funny because in one, the US tried to prevent what the intellectuals referred to as 'Western Imperialism' and in the other two America got accused of imperialism. Which smacked of hypocrisy. Given the headline tho, it kind of makes sense.

Except for the whole "we'll choose the examples that worked against america and claim they are a representative sample" thing
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 13:24   #3
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Even though I'm not a fan of the USA, I don't believe that such statement should be taken seriously.
Always this "IF this then everything would have been better" is just bad. You shouldn't judge a nation by it's past actions, but by it's current ones.

That also goes for many Americans by the way, who claim that Europe has a debt with them for saving their asses in WW2, which is nonsense.
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 14:11   #4
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Re: History Lesson in US Middle East Policy

Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
Had the United States not supported the extremist Hekmatyar faction and instead backed efforts by the United Nations and others to bring a peaceful settlement to the Soviet occupation and civil war, Afghanistan could have a established a stable government many years earlier and the Taliban would have never come to power.
Whoever said that need their heads examined.

The United States was supporting several Mujahadeen style rebel factions during the Soviet occupation, and the continual loss of manpower and equipment caused by this support is what forces the Soviets to leave, and this enormous loss of prestige to the Red Army is one of the many things that led directly to the fall of the USSR. When the Soviets left the left a complete puppet state in their wake, a puppet state that was doomed without direct Soviet support.

They were going to fall, the Civil war was already underway, it was just a matter of which brutal warlord regime would take over. As the US had not favoured the group that would become the Taliban over any of the dozens of other Mujahdeen groups they funded, one could argue they had little to do with the Taliban comng to power.

Regardless of that, Once the Soviets left, and their leving had nothing to do with diplomatic efforts, the Civil war was guarenteed.
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 15:14   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yes but is anyone seriously contesting that life under the Taliban was preffereable to Soviet occupation. The US were just trying to undermine the Russians with no interest in the Afghan people.
No offense, but you really cant say that. Its true we put our interests first, but what country doesn't? There are times we DO care about other countries, to say we dont is nonsense to be honest.

Quote:

The US had no business being there and clearly the Mujhadeen would not have beaten the Soviets without US assistance.
So the Afghani's were better off under Soviet rule?

Last edited by IndiaSour; 8 Apr 2003 at 15:44.
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 18:27   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yes they were, it was no paradise, but the occupation was Eastern European style which hardly compares to the brutal Taliban regime or in fact any of the Latin American regimes in the US sphere of influence or perhaps Russia should have sponsored Chilean guerilla fighters?

As for your first point, many countries seem to avoid sponsoring brutal militia's on other sides of the word and still serve their interests, the US didn't have to get involved. I was merely heading off your, "the US well helping the Afghan's when the helped put the Taliban inpower then withdrew leaving a country that resembled a death camp, much like they are doing now.

No offence taken but the notion of self-interest doesn't apply to allowing the CIA to screw up another country, in the name of geo-politics.

Soviet Afganistan > Taliban
You got me on the CIA screwing up another country.

I just read this though on Afghanistan.

http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi...viet-invasion/

I'd say Soviet rule = Taliban rule.

Women did lose rights, even simple human rights. But the Soviets engaged in genocide; exterminating districts. They also used chemical weapons.
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 18:57   #7
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A tiny bit simplistic there.
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Unread 8 Apr 2003, 21:52   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by IndiaSour

I'd say Soviet rule = Taliban rule.

Women did lose rights, even simple human rights. But the Soviets engaged in genocide; exterminating districts. They also used chemical weapons.
You are extremely mistaken.

The Soviets used a tactic of if necessary, destroying villiages where there were proven members of the Mujahadeen or weapons caches. They would burn the villiages and force the villagers to leave.

Before you condemn them as being as bad as the Taliban, you might want to consider that this is exactly the same tactic used by the United States in Vietnam.

The only Chemical weapons there is any evidence of the USSR using is Blue-X, an anesthetic gas. (It is what they used in that Moscow theatre last year) It is a harmless gas (0% side effects against healthy people) However when used against people who have not eaten or drunk in several days, there is set of dangerous side effects.

Before you condemn them as being as bad as the Taliban, you might want to consider that this is exactly the same tactic used by the United States in Vietnam, a supposedly harmless gas with lethal side-effects, even named after a colour.


The Soviet regime in Afganistan was neither nice nor pleasant, but it was probably the best government they have had in the last 40 years, and it is in no way comparable to the atrocity that was the Taliban.
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Unread 23 Apr 2003, 14:55   #9
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I love how everyone states theories as fact.
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