Planetarion Forums

Cynical Oracle · 27 Mar 2003, 18:53

Americans want to remove a despot, and replace him with the first 'democratic' system in the middle east. How possible is this, in the event that they actually manage to remove Saddam. Do the Iraqi people even want this?

Are they capable of democratic 'western' ways in this arab nation?

Muslim · 27 Mar 2003, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Americans want to remove a despot, and replace him with the first 'democratic' system in the middle east. How possible is this, in the event that they actually manage to remove Saddam. Do the Iraqi people even want this?

Are they capable of democratic 'western' ways in this arab nation?

prolly he would get kiked out of there faster than that dude who got his ass kicked by pharlev

Marilyn Manson · 27 Mar 2003, 19:00

Democracy is not based on culture, but it's based on Economics and Societal trends.

Democracy only flourishes and can be effectively consolidated when those two conditions are satisifed, and the benefits of them filter through (Increased education, living standards, etc.)

This is why Gorbachev made such a balls-up throguh political reform and economic reform at the same time, and why The Chinese government is leading the country down steady economic progress rather than opening the floodgates all at once.

It will all depend on how well Iraq can bolster it's economy, and how far it's people adopt a popular attachment to democracy.

Personally, I think democracy will be horribly shaky in Iraq until it develops economically, and it will msot likely relapse into some sort of authoritarian regime at some point. Not exactly a dictatorship, but a sort of Egyptian-style paternalist regime. Mind you, even that might be considered optimistic.

Basically: Don't hold your breath. Even so, it stands a much more increased chance of faring well than in Afghanistan. Democracy stands practically no chance in the immediate future there.

In any case, the idea that you can go around the world just planting democracies here, there and everywhere is a joke.

Dante Hicks · 27 Mar 2003, 19:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Democracy is not based on culture, but it's based on Economics and Societal trends.

A societies culture is pretty heavily affected by economics and "societal trends" (not sure what that means tho).

Marilyn Manson · 27 Mar 2003, 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
A societies culture is pretty heavily affected by economics

Well, you're a Marxist. You would say that. But I am being objective in this instance.

\0/

Cmdr_Cyrax · 27 Mar 2003, 19:04

How do you go about choosing a democratic presedent for another country?

Anyway, last I heard was that Bush was giving Iraq to one of his lackys to run. Or was that complete bollocks?

Cynical Oracle · 27 Mar 2003, 19:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Democracy is not based on culture, but it's based on Economics and Societal trends.

Democracy only flourishes and can be effectively consolidated when those two conditions are satisifed, and the benefits of them filter through (Increased education, living standards, etc.)

Democracy is a political idea mainly. Granted you need several ingredients to make it successfull, Iraq could have been a very prosperous nation.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
This is why Gorbachev made such a balls-up throguh political reform and economic reform at the same time, and why The Chinese government is leading the country down steady economic progress rather than opening the floodgates all at once.

It will all depend on how well Iraq can bolster it's economy, and how far it's people adopt a popular attachment to democracy.

The adoptation to democracy by the people will indeed be crucial for the system to work.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Personally, I think democracy will be horribly shaky in Iraq until it develops economically, and it will msot likely relapse into some sort of authoritarian regime at some point. Not exactly a dictatorship, but a sort of paternalist regime.

Much like Qatar is at the moment?

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Basically: Don't hold your breath. Even so, it stands a much more increased chance of faring well than in Afghanistan. Democracy stands practically no chance in the immediate future there.

In any case, the idea that you can go around the world just planting democracies here, there and everywhere is a joke.

Tommy Franks will prove you wrong.

wu_trax · 27 Mar 2003, 19:13

i dont even belive the us will try. how many of their current allies in the region are democratic? i dont think they give a damn about democracy.

Cynical Oracle · 27 Mar 2003, 19:15

Quote:

Originally posted by wu_trax
i dont even belive the us will try. how many of their current allies in the region are democratic? i dont think they give a damn about democracy.

As previously mentiond, Qatar is establishing a democratic way of rule. The current 'ruler' of Qatar does not think Qatar can 'evolve' much futher without a change to democracy.

Pyr0 MK III · 27 Mar 2003, 19:28

I have faith in America*

*first time ever

Marilyn Manson · 27 Mar 2003, 19:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Democracy is a political idea mainly. Granted you need several ingredients to make it successfull, Iraq could have been a very prosperous nation.

I can't stress how fundamental a healthy and stable economy is to democracy. It's the absolute cornerstone of it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Much like Qatar is at the moment?

Not really. Qatar works as a moderate state because it's small (Which is always a boon in establishing and consolidating a democracy), and it has had quite a good amount of undisturbed and peaceful development. But currently the way wealth is distributed across the population is something of an impediment to the process. And, of course, it's been blessed with some reform-minded rulers, which is always useful in these matters.

It's still doing fairly okay, though, as things go.

Bahrein is another one to watch.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Tommy Franks will prove you wrong.

Well, Tommy Franks knows jack-**** about politics as far as I'm aware, and doing a MacArthur for six months, shooting a few Iraqi partisans, and then buggering off won't ensure Iraqi democracy for the future.

IndiaSour · 27 Mar 2003, 19:50

Quote:

Originally posted by wu_trax
i dont even belive the us will try. how many of their current allies in the region are democratic? i dont think they give a damn about democracy.

Choose the battles you can win now, while doing what you can for the rest later. Its not smart to make all your allies change at once. (iirc)From what I read a few months ago it seemed like the US was "hinting" towards Pakistan to be more "democratic" I guess you can say.

wu_trax · 27 Mar 2003, 19:54

Quote:

Originally posted by IndiaSour
Choose the battles you can win now, while doing what you can for the rest later. Its not smart to make all your allies change at once. (iirc)From what I read a few months ago it seemed like the US was "hinting" towards Pakistan to be more "democratic" I guess you can say.

the next war would mean a direct confrontation against all countries in that area though. they cant be dumb enough to let you take one by one.

W · 27 Mar 2003, 20:33

Saddam has made democracy possible in Iraq. Not likely, but possible.

Kurashima · 27 Mar 2003, 20:51

How many Arab nations have democratically elected governments , and how many are rules by Families descended from Royalty?

Answers on a postcard please to "Why democracy doesnt work in countries with essentially Feudal mindsets".

Anaximander · 27 Mar 2003, 22:07

I would like to add "tribal mindset" to your feudal mindset. It is almost the same, but of smaller political scale. Even if you have a more or less working democratic government, the tribes tend to ignore the government(see Yemen for eg). These ppl have already a political construct, that was working well for them for hundreds of years. They won't just forget it, because somebody tells them, they have to obey now the rules of the unpersonal and unrelated government .

Kurashima · 27 Mar 2003, 22:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Anaximander
I would like to add "tribal mindset" to your feudal mindset. It is almost the same, but of smaller political scale. Even if you have a more or less working democratic government, the tribs tend to ignore the government(see Yemen for eg). These ppl have already a political construct, that was working good for them for hundreds of years. They won't just forget it, because somebody tells them, they have to obey now the rules of the unpersonal and unrelated government .

Thats possibly the first rational , and well thought out response ive seen from you since you started posting on GD.

It scares me.

Anaximander · 27 Mar 2003, 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurashima
Thats possibly the first rational , and well thought out response ive seen from you since you started posting on GD.

It scares me.

Grrrrr! Get lost, will you?

Cynical Oracle · 28 Mar 2003, 10:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurashima
How many Arab nations have democratically elected governments , and how many are rules by Families descended from Royalty?

Answers on a postcard please to "Why democracy doesnt work in countries with essentially Feudal mindsets".

That's quite racist actually

Stating the Arab people are not capable of free will.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Well, Tommy Franks knows jack-**** about politics as far as I'm aware, and doing a MacArthur for six months, shooting a few Iraqi partisans, and then buggering off won't ensure Iraqi democracy for the future.

He will, he will ROCK YOU ROCK YOU!

Seriously, they are hoping to stabilize the region by leaving Gen. Franks there. The Iraqis might not listen to him, but the American troops wich arn't supposed to be there will.

I remember a few weeks ago. Coalition forces where determind, UN Troops would provide the safekeeping needed, and not a yank cowboy. This might be more fun than the campain itself.

ChubbyChecker · 28 Mar 2003, 10:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
That's quite racist actually Stating the Arab people are not capable of free will.

Europe had a feudal mindset back in the middle ages, how many of those countries were democratic?

Democracy is a good thing, but a country needs to be "advanced" enough to handle it. Even in Europe democracy only came relatively recently. Look at the UK for example, 100 years ago only 2% of the male population had the vote.

An economically underdeveloped country like Iraq needs political stability for its economy to flourish, regardless of whether it is democratic or not.

Say what you will about Saddam Hussein, at least he brought political stability to Iraq. Let's hope whatever comes next can also achieve this.

General Geiger · 28 Mar 2003, 11:27

The US war on Iraq is intended to scare North Korea into never attacking South Korea again.

Ste · 28 Mar 2003, 11:42

People fail to mention the Kurdistan region of Iraq. It is completely democratic and has worked quite well in recent years. Obviously there are a few teething troubles but it is a new concept in arab countries.

Iraq can't be a democracy as the sunni, shia and kurdish muslims, not to mention the other types, don't get on together. How are they going to elect a leader that represents all of them? At least one of the groups will be unrepresented.

ChubbyChecker · 28 Mar 2003, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Ste
Iraq can't be a democracy as the sunni, shia and kurdish muslims, not to mention the other types, don't get on together. How are they going to elect a leader that represents all of them? At least one of the groups will be unrepresented.

I agree with you up to a point. Sure, the Iraqi situation means that you can't have a strong centralised government. That would just create/worsen ethnic tension in the country. What would have to be done is to create a very decentralised system where the majority of the power goes to local elected officials. Sure, you would need a central government and a President but their power would have to be limited.

Judge · 28 Mar 2003, 11:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Ste
People fail to mention the Kurdistan region of Iraq. It is completely democratic and has worked quite well in recent years. Obviously there are a few teething troubles but it is a new concept in arab countries.

Iraq can't be a democracy as the sunni, shia and kurdish muslims, not to mention the other types, don't get on together. How are they going to elect a leader that represents all of them? At least one of the groups will be unrepresented.

Indeed there are all those differences.

But there are also fundamental differences in populations in most Western democratic countries.

USA for example.

Catholics
Jews
Muslims
Hispanic
Italian
Irish
Native American,

.............etc to name but a few.

All of the above and several sub-groups all vie for political influence, yet manage at least once every four years to elect a Government.

It may not be perfect, but it works, so why should Iraq be any different?

Do you think the Iraqi's are so backward that they cannot understand the concept of representation?

wu_trax · 28 Mar 2003, 14:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Ste
People fail to mention the Kurdistan region of Iraq. It is completely democratic and has worked quite well in recent years. Obviously there are a few teething troubles but it is a new concept in arab countries.

the kurds are democratic ?? thats new

Quote:

Iraq can't be a democracy as the sunni, shia and kurdish muslims, not to mention the other types, don't get on together. How are they going to elect a leader that represents all of them? At least one of the groups will be unrepresented.

the switzerland-model might work.

Radical Edward · 28 Mar 2003, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by wu_trax
the switzerland-model might work.

the 'having loads of cash keeps people quiet' model?

what is the swiss model?

wu_trax · 28 Mar 2003, 14:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Radical Edward
the 'having loads of cash keeps people quiet' model?

what is the swiss model?

its a federal system. seems to be a quite good system, given that the situation in switzerland makes it a prime candidat for a civil war. the uno recommended the same model to zyprus, unfortunatly they didnt accept it.

Radical Edward · 28 Mar 2003, 14:11

Quote:

Originally posted by wu_trax
its a federal system. seems to be a quite good system, given that the situation in switzerland makes it a prime candidat for a civil war. the uno recommended the same model to zyprus, unfortunatly they didnt accept it.

I was getting at "how does it work?"

Ste · 28 Mar 2003, 14:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Judge
Indeed there are all those differences.

But there are also fundamental differences in populations in most Western democratic countries.

USA for example.

Catholics
Jews
Muslims
Hispanic
Italian
Irish
Native American,

.............etc to name but a few.

All of the above and several sub-groups all vie for political influence, yet manage at least once every four years to elect a Government.

It may not be perfect, but it works, so why should Iraq be any different?

Do you think the Iraqi's are so backward that they cannot understand the concept of representation?

No, I think that they have been slaughtering each other for centuries and will definately bear a grudge.

Kumnaa · 28 Mar 2003, 14:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Judge
Indeed there are all those differences.

But there are also fundamental differences in populations in most Western democratic countries.

USA for example.

Catholics
Jews
Muslims
Hispanic
Italian
Irish
Native American,

.............etc to name but a few.

All of the above and several sub-groups all vie for political influence, yet manage at least once every four years to elect a Government.

It may not be perfect, but it works, so why should Iraq be any different?

Do you think the Iraqi's are so backward that they cannot understand the concept of representation?

are you American ?

Ste · 28 Mar 2003, 14:45

Quote:

Originally posted by wu_trax
the kurds are democratic ?? thats new

Only a few months, so yes quite new. and they have been self-governed since the last war.

Quote:

the switzerland-model might work.

Elaborate?

oh and a discussion on democratic possibilities for Iraq:
http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/st...920351,00.html
worth a read as it sums up most arguments made here.

Judge · 28 Mar 2003, 15:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Kumnaa
are you American ?

No, why?

What difference would it make?

I was using the USA as an example.

Any other western nation would have been just as apt.