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9 Nov 2005, 20:54
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#1
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Welsh palestinian!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Aberystwyth
Posts: 148
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Shakespeare
Can someone please tell me why in England we have to study shakespeare in High School.
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Orbit - Vision - xVx - Newdawn - p3nguins - Apprime - Zebra Punch
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9 Nov 2005, 20:56
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#2
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Shakespeare
[edit] unwarranted abuse [/edit]
dont do it again dude. its not big and its not clever - JJ
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
Last edited by JammyJim; 9 Nov 2005 at 23:21.
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9 Nov 2005, 20:59
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#3
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Heh, Leeds !
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: In The Redfern
Posts: 3,790
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Re: Shakespeare
Because at 15 you are supposed to have stopped reading about the adventures of Spot the dog with the red ball.
__________________
The George Harrison of BlueTuba
Yes, I know he is dead !
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9 Nov 2005, 21:08
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#4
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Insomniac
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,583
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Re: Shakespeare
to learn culture
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9 Nov 2005, 21:22
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#5
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Insanely Insignificant
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 1,056
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Re: Shakespeare
If Bush had been made to learn shakespeare maybe he wouldn't make a sea monkey appear intellectually advanced.
Maybe :/
__________________
Very nearly there.
All is nothing, without you.
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9 Nov 2005, 21:28
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#6
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Shakespeare
it sets you out from the rest of the world, with a couple of shakes plays under you, you can pretend your clever
What?
My favourite Shakespeare?
If you insist
Henry IV Part Two
an absolute classic.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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9 Nov 2005, 21:30
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Shakespeare
Most cultures have informal lists of things that people must be able to do/know in order to be considered 'educated' and 'cultured'. For historical reasons, a working knowledge of Shakespeare is one of ours. Look on the bright side though - at least you dont have to learn calligraphy or latin.
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9 Nov 2005, 21:31
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#8
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Shakespeare
or remember every single county and town in Britain.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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9 Nov 2005, 21:42
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#9
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Most cultures have informal lists of things that people must be able to do/know in order to be considered 'educated' and 'cultured'. For historical reasons, a working knowledge of Shakespeare is one of ours. Look on the bright side though - at least you dont have to learn calligraphy or latin.
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I had to learn latin and shakespeare
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Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
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It's not personal, it's just business.
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9 Nov 2005, 21:47
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#10
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: Shakespeare
There are only 7 basic stories and Shakspeare stole enough different varients that he can be used as an example (or something).
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On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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9 Nov 2005, 21:50
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#11
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Motherfracker
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,985
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Re: Shakespeare
Shakespeare is actually really good.
The wordplay and the way the language is used and constructed is really clever.
Also, if you read a verse from it to a girl you will get laid.*
* This statement is not related to fact in any way. If you don't get laid, its not because you read Shakespeare wrong, its because you're ugly.
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9 Nov 2005, 22:50
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#12
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: Shakespeare
i grew up about 6000 miles from england, and through 12th grade i had to read:
Romey and Julie
Julius C.
Hamlet
Othello
i've also seen 'Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet', 'West Side Story', '12 Things I Hate About You,' 'Scotland PA', one of the 'henry's', 'A Midsummer Night's Dream', and a cartoon called 'Gargoyles' which does have relevance. All of which require knowledge of the original shakespeare in order to understand. Except for that henry one, and I'm not sure Andy Dick on a carousel makes sense in any case.
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9 Nov 2005, 23:06
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#13
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Cynical Optimist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Solihull / University of Warwick
Posts: 502
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
12 Things I Hate About You
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10
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9 Nov 2005, 23:17
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#14
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Shakespeare
King Lear is a masterpiece. Possibly the greatest thing written by an Englishman.
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9 Nov 2005, 23:19
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#15
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i grew up about 6000 miles from england, and through 12th grade i had to read:
Romey and Julie
Julius C.
Hamlet
Othello
i've also seen 'Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet', 'West Side Story', '12 Things I Hate About You,' 'Scotland PA', one of the 'henry's', 'A Midsummer Night's Dream', and a cartoon called 'Gargoyles' which does have relevance. All of which require knowledge of the original shakespeare in order to understand. Except for that henry one, and I'm not sure Andy Dick on a carousel makes sense in any case.
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i dont like those, read midsommers night dream, merchant of venice and Henry IV part two preferbly or part one. Although Hamlet and Julius Ceaser or good I dont know they are just too predicatabe, as is Romeo and Juliet. At my school we did a shakespeare book every year from year 7 through to year 13, only come about year 11 did I start to enjoy it and appreciate it.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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9 Nov 2005, 23:23
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#16
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Re: Shakespeare
Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this son of York;
And all the clouds that loured upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths,
Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
Our dreadful marches to delightful measures.
Grim-visaged war hath smoothed his wrinkled front,
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Forum Administrator
Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
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It's not personal, it's just business.
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9 Nov 2005, 23:24
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#17
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Re: Shakespeare
That (Richard III), The Tempest, Macbeth, Midsomernights dream and another that i forget ive seen in the RSC bar the tempest which was down at London in the round house theatre.
You can only really appreciate shakespeare once you have seen it acted (preferably by people who are good at doing it)
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Forum Administrator
Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
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10 Nov 2005, 00:44
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#18
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USS Oklahoma
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk
Can someone please tell me why in England we have to study shakespeare in High School.
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You don't have to study Shakespeare and they can't make you!
Your grade may suffer slightly for the refusal but think of all the extra time you will have to spend on GD.
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Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
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10 Nov 2005, 02:04
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#19
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
10
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you have no idea how often i get those two numbers mixed up. i try to stay out of discussion about pearl jam because of it (to avoid embarassment).
ps: 'o', which is actually very true to the play and has a serious hate fcuk scene should be added to my (second) list.
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10 Nov 2005, 02:12
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#20
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Because at 15 you are supposed to have stopped reading about the adventures of Spot the dog with the red ball.
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hi
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10 Nov 2005, 02:39
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#21
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Cynical Optimist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Solihull / University of Warwick
Posts: 502
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
you have no idea how often i get those two numbers mixed up. i try to stay out of discussion about pearl jam because of it (to avoid embarassment).
ps: 'o', which is actually very true to the play and has a serious hate fcuk scene should be added to my (second) list.
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Heh. A curious confusion.
But I was just being a pedant
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10 Nov 2005, 03:14
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#22
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deserves a medal
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Shakespeare
Shakespeare is the biggest English/American fetish their is.
It's limiting your horizon by ignoring more original books.
__________________
"I have with me two gods, Persuasion and Compulsion."
Last edited by Alessio; 10 Nov 2005 at 03:20.
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10 Nov 2005, 03:26
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#23
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk
Can someone please tell me why in England we have to study shakespeare in High School.
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Cultural momentum (with much love to s|k). Seriously though shakespeare is pretty cool and uses the english language well enough to qualify as generally awesome so it's a good idea to study him if you a solid knowledge of the basics of english language and literature is a key aim of your education. Which it is, so it is so, as it is written, because it should be.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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10 Nov 2005, 09:34
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#24
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Although Hamlet and Julius Ceaser or good I dont know they are just too predicatabe, as is Romeo and Juliet.
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R&J is hardly predicable.
The problem is that it is such a famous story now that we all know the ending.
But I bet the first time you read it you didn't know what was going to happen.
I studied R&J in about year 9 and did Much Ado About Nothing for my GCSE.
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10 Nov 2005, 09:45
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
Shakespeare is the biggest English/American fetish their is.
It's limiting your horizon by ignoring more original books.
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This is completely wrong.
Shakespeare is one of the most original, as I understand the term, writers of all time. Not reading Shakespeare would actually be limiting your horizons as he, to a great extent, IS the horizon.
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10 Nov 2005, 09:46
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#26
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:alpha:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,871
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Re: Shakespeare
Why do you call your school "High School" if you live in England?
__________________
"There is no I in team, but there are two in anal fisting"
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10 Nov 2005, 12:09
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#27
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why do you call your school "High School" if you live in England?
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I thought that they were called this (i didnt go to one tho so maybe im wrong)
__________________
Forum Administrator
Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
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It's not personal, it's just business.
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10 Nov 2005, 12:14
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#28
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
I thought that they were called this (i didnt go to one tho so maybe im wrong)
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My schooling was termed Infants => Primary School => Secondary School => College / "Post 16" => University.
Anyway, Shakespeare was a relatively minor part of the horror that was compulsory education. But I presume it was possible to avoid it if your school felt so inclined. I mean, mostly everything else seems to be flexible (although lots of people I know did Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth and Of Mice and Men whereas everything else seems to vary wildly).
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10 Nov 2005, 13:45
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#29
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: Shakespeare
Well, MAsta_MArk, if that is your real name, it's because "schooling" is designed around getting people to "learn" things, and one of the things that it has been decided that it is valuable to "learn" is the way the "english language" works, with reference to "literature".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
It's limiting your horizon by ignoring more original books.
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I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.
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10 Nov 2005, 14:28
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#30
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Tiny Dancer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 355
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Re: Shakespeare
Because without shakespeare, you wouldnt have any sort of wonderful quaint notion of how ideallic and beautiful england is, and would perhaps not be so blind to the faults of a country that gave the world concentration camps, the spice girls, the conservative party, and lee evans.
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[16:09] <eJohn> im still standing
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10 Nov 2005, 14:48
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#31
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
Because without shakespeare, you wouldnt have any sort of wonderful quaint notion of how ideallic and beautiful england is, and would perhaps not be so blind to the faults of a country that gave the world concentration camps, the spice girls, the conservative party, and lee evans.
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I know you're trying a sort of brainless satire, but this post expresses a completely inaccurate view of the content of Shakespeare plays, and thus I must call you a gibbering moron.
Sir, you are a gibbering moron.
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10 Nov 2005, 15:08
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#32
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Tiny Dancer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 355
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Re: Shakespeare
But i thought the spice girls were the principle characters of Macbeth?
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[16:09] <eJohn> im still standing
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10 Nov 2005, 15:09
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#33
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
But i thought the spice girls were the principle characters of Macbeth?
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Of course. Macbeth is also set in England!
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10 Nov 2005, 15:22
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#34
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wild one
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: River Edge, NJ
Posts: 3,313
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Of course. Macbeth is also set in England!
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Is it?
Bollocks. That'll be why I failed my literature thing.
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10 Nov 2005, 15:25
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#35
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:alpha:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,871
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Re: Shakespeare
I can understand why some people are pushing for literature other than Shakespeare in schools. It isn't very relevant to us, and it also is completely unlike most literature you'll encounter.
Pupils would be much more inclined to read books if they had some form of relevance to them, or even if they were interesting.
Yes, Shakespeare is one of the greatest writers of all time and we shouldn't forget that, blah blah blah. But grading someone on their comprehension of English on a form of English which is no longer used is a little silly, isn't it?
We did Lord of the Flies, Frankenstein, Death of a Salesman and Macbeth at GCSE. I enjoyed all of them apart from Macbeth. I tolerated it, but I did not enjoy the book. Because of this, I detested studying it and analysing it. I loved doing the others.
__________________
"There is no I in team, but there are two in anal fisting"
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10 Nov 2005, 15:40
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#36
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Drink is Good
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,122
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Re: Shakespeare
I cant remember doing Shakespeare in school, maybe when i was a we lil un in year 8 or 7 or something. Remeber doing Lord of the Flies, and watching the movie of the book, oh how we laughed when piggy?(i think thats his name) got smacked on the head by a rock and died. The teacher then proceeded to bollock us saying thats not funny, so i stopped laughing...only because she was hot
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Can we please have a moment of silence...........
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10 Nov 2005, 15:54
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#37
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk
Can someone please tell me why in England we have to study shakespeare in High School.
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Stop being a **** and let some ****ing culture filter into your life for once.
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10 Nov 2005, 15:58
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#38
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
Is it?
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Yes. That's why it's called "the Scottish play" and why all the characters have Scottish names and why it's set in Scotland and why Dace has a cameo in it as the comic relief.
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10 Nov 2005, 16:00
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#39
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Shakespeare
Isn't it called "the scottish play" because actors are shit superstitious assholes?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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10 Nov 2005, 16:04
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#40
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Shakespeare
I was an actor once. On the stage and the radio.
I gave it in to be a moderator on an online forum which no-ones uses and no-one cares about, and where people call you a fag constantly.
Still, happy memories.
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10 Nov 2005, 18:14
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#41
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I can understand why some people are pushing for literature other than Shakespeare in schools. It isn't very relevant to us, and it also is completely unlike most literature you'll encounter.
Pupils would be much more inclined to read books if they had some form of relevance to them, or even if they were interesting.
Yes, Shakespeare is one of the greatest writers of all time and we shouldn't forget that, blah blah blah. But grading someone on their comprehension of English on a form of English which is no longer used is a little silly, isn't it?
We did Lord of the Flies, Frankenstein, Death of a Salesman and Macbeth at GCSE. I enjoyed all of them apart from Macbeth. I tolerated it, but I did not enjoy the book. Because of this, I detested studying it and analysing it. I loved doing the others.
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There is something inherently wrong about a teacher refering to a shakespeare play as a 'book'.
__________________
hi
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10 Nov 2005, 18:23
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: Shakespeare
I agree with Tomkat, its good, but it has much less importance nowadays. One of the books I studied was Educating Rita. Needless to say i was rather impressed and Michael Caine plays a good alcoholic.
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
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10 Nov 2005, 18:31
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#43
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NEWSBOT
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
I agree with Tomkat, its good, but it has much less importance nowadays. One of the books I studied was Educating Rita. Needless to say i was rather impressed and Michael Caine plays a good alcoholic.
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he's starring in books now ?
__________________
[20:27:47] <nodrog-aawy> **** i think my housemate just caught me masturbating
[11:25:32] <idimmu> you are a little piggy arent you
[13:17:00] <KaneED> i'm so closet i'm like narnia
__________________
Pretty parks and funky scrap metal things here
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10 Nov 2005, 18:37
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#44
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Shakespeare
I want more Chaucer in schools that'd stop you tossers whinging about Shakespeare and if you whinged about Chaucer then you should be made to study Beowulf... yes ... I can see this system working rather well ...
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hi
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10 Nov 2005, 18:47
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#45
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Shakespeare
we did beowulf in primary school
well, I did.
We did one of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in Secondary school too.
__________________
bastard bastard bastard bastard
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10 Nov 2005, 18:53
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#46
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
Ða wæs on burgum Beowulf Scyldinga,
leof leodcyning, longe þrage
folcum gefræge (fæder ellor hwearf,
aldor of earde), oþþæt him eft onwoc
heah Healfdene;
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You'll have no trouble translating this for us then will you Deepflow? You Wunderkind you!
__________________
hi
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10 Nov 2005, 19:10
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#47
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
You'll have no trouble translating this for us then will you Deepflow? You Wunderkind you!
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Don't be so bloody silly.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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10 Nov 2005, 19:13
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#48
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Shakespeare
You do walk into these things ...
It's not as though anyone else 'made you' misinterpret my point and waffle about your primary school days now was it?
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hi
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10 Nov 2005, 19:17
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#49
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Shakespeare
ah, those were great days though
great days...
I could reminisce all day, but I won't
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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10 Nov 2005, 19:21
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#50
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Shakespeare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I can understand why some people are pushing for literature other than Shakespeare in schools. It isn't very relevant to us, and it also is completely unlike most literature you'll encounter.
Pupils would be much more inclined to read books if they had some form of relevance to them, or even if they were interesting.
Yes, Shakespeare is one of the greatest writers of all time and we shouldn't forget that, blah blah blah. But grading someone on their comprehension of English on a form of English which is no longer used is a little silly, isn't it?
We did Lord of the Flies, Frankenstein, Death of a Salesman and Macbeth at GCSE. I enjoyed all of them apart from Macbeth. I tolerated it, but I did not enjoy the book. Because of this, I detested studying it and analysing it. I loved doing the others.
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I think it's a bit silly to acknowledge that Shakespeare is one of the greatest writers of all time whilst questioning his relevance and damning his works as uninteresting. Why bother? There is either merit to Macbeth, or there is not. However, of course, reading is by its nature subjective.
Frankly, I fail to see how Shakespeare's literature has lost its relevance. Of course, Macbeth doesn't wield a gun or wear a suit in the play, but this matters little; thematically, Macbeth is as relevant as ever: deception, ambition and guilt outlived Shakespeare..
In actual fact, Shakespeare is mostly written in modern english. The syntax is often confusing, but reading Macbeth is hardly an exercise in translation (see Beowulf).
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