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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 01:35   #51
Ultimate Newbie
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Are you joking?
I meant; seen from the US commander's perspective.

I mean, Afghanistan could be far worse, isnt that enough cause for celebration given current context in the world? :\
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 01:47   #52
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I meant; seen from the US commander's perspective.

I mean, Afghanistan could be far worse, isnt that enough cause for celebration given current context in the world? :\
No?
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 02:22   #53
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Planning for the occupation would have resulted in far more initial reconstruction of basic services such as water and electricity as you would have planned to have brigades of engineers ready to go as soon as the conventional army had been defeated in an area.
The US set aside a porportionally tiny amount for reconstruction, funding for iraqi reconstruction has now ceased. They wouldn't have spent any more money regardless of the situation on the ground, there was a finite amount set aside for rebuilding, what makes you think money would magically appear without attacks on the coalition?

Quote:

snip

I mean, if these things are obvious to me, what are those staff and flag officers who spend months/years planning these things doing?!'
Do you honestly think the iraqis are fighting the british and americans because we didn't spend enough on rebuilding the infrastructure after we bombed and impossed sanctions on them for 12 years?!?!! Or that things would be different if we 'planned more'?!?

If Iraq bombed the shit out of us and impossed sanctions for 12 years before invading britain no amount of 'planning' on their part could stop me killing every last one of them if i got the chance. We sided with saddam when it suited us, we ****ed with iraq as and when we wanted, what plans could possibly make things any different?!?!

To reiterate what i said 'mein leader we shall free the people with freedom but must plan to stop them resisting' and since dante already brought up wwii; do you honestly believe that the nazis could have conquered france without meeting any post occupation resistance if only they had 'planned better'?

We're in the same absurd position as vietnam. How can you bring a people 'freedom' if a large portion of them are willing to kill themselves to get you out? They aren't becoming martyrs for electricity but because they want freedom from us

Post occupation planning wouldn't have stopped an insurgency. We're the bad guys
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 02:34   #54
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The US set aside a porportionally tiny amount for reconstruction
If they planned ahead, then they would have known that they would have needed more. Plus, with less damage done to their own infrastructure by insurgents, then it would be cheaper to rebuild basic services.

Quote:
They wouldn't have spent any more money regardless of the situation on the ground
And you know that, how?


Quote:
Do you honestly think the iraqis are fighting the british and americans because we didn't spend enough on rebuilding the infrastructure after we bombed and impossed sanctions on them for 12 years?!?!! Or that things would be different if we 'planned more'?!?
Some Iraqis might be; or perhaps more specifically, because the coalition didnt to enough in the initial aftermath period, they became more succepible to the belief/propaganda that clearly all that the US/UK was interested in was Oil. Perception matters; if more planning for occupation had happened, then the perception might have been very different and thus undermine the support of insurgents. I would imagine that it would be more difficult to believe someone saying that all the US is interested in is killing innocent muslims if they spent much more time and money on building/rebuilding flash new hospitals, schools, public libraries with uncensored internet connections, continuous electricity and reliable water/sewage systems. "ordinary people" would look around and think; hey i've got an opportunity here to prosper in the new iraq, now that saddam's opressive goons are gone - lets get to it. Rather, you have a poorly planned occupation whereby everything is still bombed out, water sewage and electricity is spotty at best, hospitals are getting by with bugger all and schools - well, lets not go there. I reckon, if the occupation was planned better all these problems would have come to light; and thus created the need for more funding.

Quote:
If Iraq bombed the shit out of us and impossed sanctions for 12 years before invading britain no amount of 'planning' on their part could stop me killing every last one of them if i got the chance. We sided with saddam when it suited us, we ****ed with iraq as and when we wanted, what plans could possibly make things any different?!?!
Excellent; when you are shot, do i win the argument?

Quote:
To reiterate what i said 'mein leader we shall free the people with freedom but must plan to stop them resisting' and since dante already brought up wwii; do you honestly believe that the nazis could have conquered france without meeting any post occupation resistance if only they had 'planned better'?
Uh-oh, isnt there some law that once hitler and the nazi's are invoked, its the end of all meaningful discussion in a thread?

So unfortunate, we were going so well .
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 02:50   #55
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
If they planned ahead, then they would have known that they would have needed more. Plus, with less damage done to their own infrastructure by insurgents, then it would be cheaper to rebuild basic services.

And you know that, how?
The vast majority of the funding for iraq is being done outside the budget of the US government and via supplamental congressional appropriations, at no point has anyone asked congress to allow increased spending for reconstruction because noone in the US particularly cares about it.




Quote:
Excellent; when you are shot, do i win the argument?
whats your point?


Quote:
Uh-oh, isnt there some law that once hitler and the nazi's are invoked, its the end of all meaningful discussion in a thread?

So unfortunate, we were going so well .

Not a law, a shitty convention. To help find us find a point we can differ on principle on, do you think the nazis could have avoided a french resistance by 'planning better'?

I don't. I think they'd have fought regardless of the number of electricity pylons installed, and i think the iraqis will do likewise.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 09:11   #56
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
If they planned ahead, then they would have known that they would have needed more. Plus, with less damage done to their own infrastructure by insurgents, then it would be cheaper to rebuild basic services.
If they had planned ahead, then they almost certainly wouldn't have invaded because the costs, as were thought at the time, were astronomical. That's not what the people pushing for war wanted, so the costs were not considered. This isn't hindsight, this is what was thought before the invasion.

And if you think that the war in Afghanistan is over, let alone won, you are a very uninformed individual indeed.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 13:22   #57
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Not a law, a shitty convention. To help find us find a point we can differ on principle on, do you think the nazis could have avoided a french resistance by 'planning better'?

I don't. I think they'd have fought regardless of the number of electricity pylons installed, and i think the iraqis will do likewise.
Your rather missing the point that the majority of Iraqis lived in fear under the saddam government, and that they were more than willing to accept someone different, the jubilation at the fall of saddam being clear enough.

The problem then comes when things do not get better for the people, which in this case happened, with electricity and water supplies being cut off to name but a few. In these circumstances, improved planning for occupation would have been increadibly useful and beneficial.

Your likening of it to the french resistance is a bit confusing How can you claim it's even vaguely similar circumstances? The French were under a democratically elected and chosen government, one which they had no issues with. As such they had no desire to support the invading nazis, who were responsible for intentionally commiting war crimes. The parallels are weak at best.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 13:59   #58
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Uh-oh, isnt there some law that once hitler and the nazi's are invoked, its the end of all meaningful discussion in a thread?
I already mentioned it twice in this thread.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 14:23   #59
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Your rather missing the point that the majority of Iraqis lived in fear under the saddam government, and that they were more than willing to accept someone different, the jubilation at the fall of saddam being clear enough.
And i never suggested the joy at seeing saddam fall wasn't heartfelt, the iraqi resistance was inevitable the us/uk as well as the un were seen as being complicit in saddam's rule.

Quote:
The problem then comes when things do not get better for the people, which in this case happened, with electricity and water supplies being cut off to name but a few. In these circumstances, improved planning for occupation would have been increadibly useful and beneficial.
Do you think the afghans would have stopped resisting the soviet union if they'd been given enough 'water supplies'?

Quote:
Your likening of it to the french resistance is a bit confusing How can you claim it's even vaguely similar circumstances? The French were under a democratically elected and chosen government, one which they had no issues with. As such they had no desire to support the invading nazis, who were responsible for intentionally commiting war crimes. The parallels are weak at best.
You're taking the discussion onto the rationale for war, the iraqis never had any great love for us, we never offered them anything of value we killed hundreds of thousands before 2003 with our sanctions, we were never going to be seen as liberators to be thrown garlands, rather an instantaneous opportunity and a threat.


The point of the discussion, post 'conquest' is whether through 'planning' the 'hearts and minds'* of the iraqis could have been won by infrastructure development. No amount of investment could get over the fact they hate us, associate us (rightly) with saddam and that we're ****ing up their country as we speak.

They're willing to kill themselves to get rid of us, im not sure what to say if you genuinely think thats because their electricity network is a shambles.


*laughbly naive concept nut nvm
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 16:44   #60
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And i never suggested the joy at seeing saddam fall wasn't heartfelt, the iraqi resistance was inevitable the us/uk as well as the un were seen as being complicit in saddam's rule.
No, AN Iraqi resistance, to some degree was inevitable. There would certainly be a portion of the population, likely the former Baathists who were opposed to the US presence and the US deposing of HGussein, and of them a portion would have been violently opposed.

However, the lack of any coherent plan, and in fact the decisions taken by Bush Jr directly in oposition to the advice of all post-war planners (see Clarke and Woodward's books) led to a situation that was FAR worse than it might have been.

There is not one resistance in Iraq, there are dozens. Some are opposed to the US presence, others care about the US presence only tangentially. There are resistances along religious grounds, geographic, tribal and practical. Some exist and have grown unabated as a direct result of the US administration's incompetence in the region.


Oh, and by the way, had the Nazis stuck to their plan for longterm peaceful occupation, the French resistance WOULD have been significantly smaller. If the Soviets had not gotten into the habit of 'erasing' villages with ties to suspected resistance groups, the Afghan Mujahadin would have been far more managable. To imply there is no link with the actions of the liberator/ occupier and the actions of the liberated/ occupied is incredibly naive.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 16:51   #61
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

How Vermilion how's it going
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 18:11   #62
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
No, AN Iraqi resistance, to some degree was inevitable. There would certainly be a portion of the population, likely the former Baathists who were opposed to the US presence and the US deposing of HGussein, and of them a portion would have been violently opposed.

Without arguing over the usage of 'the' as opposed to 'an' the same people fighting the americans now would have fought the americans even if given more electricity


Quote:
Oh, and by the way, had the Nazis stuck to their plan for longterm peaceful occupation, the French resistance WOULD have been significantly smaller. If the Soviets had not gotten into the habit of 'erasing' villages with ties to suspected resistance groups, the Afghan Mujahadin would have been far more managable.

Yeah those peaceful occupations are great, the people really dig them. I suppose you're canadian so you can't understand but britain wouldn't have accepted a peaceful* nazi occupation, because it just isn't us.




Quote:
To imply there is no link with the actions of the liberator/ occupier and the actions of the liberated/ occupied is incredibly naive.
To imply the core issue of occupation can be ignored by the population provided you give them enough electricity and water is beyond absurd. Your 'link' merely explains who is more likely to collaborate; the people however will always resist.




*nein my friends our tanks are really enlarged people carriers, we accidently shot your soldiers whilst going through customs and will park our vehicles in your streets but be assured this occupation is peaceful.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 18:28   #63
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Without arguing over the usage of 'the' as opposed to 'an' the same people fighting the americans now would have fought the americans even if given more electricity
Oh please. "The" resistance aren't some anti-American hate group; whilst some people in the middle-east certainly would hate america and the west, and what it stands for, no matter what happened, the majority of people who do so now are doing it because we gave them a reason to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Yeah those peaceful occupations are great, the people really dig them. I suppose you're canadian so you can't understand but britain wouldn't have accepted a peaceful* nazi occupation, because it just isn't us.
No, I'd beg to differ. Whilst there are people who will fight for a cause, who will die for a cause, ANYTHING of that nature is fueled by adversity. If the government keeps the trains running on time and gives people food, water and healthcare, most of the population just won't give a damn.

Have a look at the Romans. I'd hardly call the Gauls a subservient people, but they were, over time, readily taken into the Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
To imply the core issue of occupation can be ignored by the population provided you give them enough electricity and water is beyond absurd.
Beyond absurd, but well vindicated by history. You need numbers to fight a revolutionary war; do you think that the number of people in this country (to give an example) are so patriotic that they would die just to have a different name giving them the same deal?
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 18:44   #64
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Without arguing over the usage of 'the' as opposed to 'an' the same people fighting the americans now would have fought the americans even if given more electricity
Really? And you are certain of this why? You feel confident of your assertion for what reason?

Why have the number of Insurgents steadily increased over the last 3 years? If people were going to fight anyways, then why did they take so long to go about it?

The best your somewhat ctwisted logic can hope for is to claim that there would have been some people resisting the US no matter what. I will give you that, I am certain a small percentage of this insurgency was inevitable.

However the rest of it was most certainly not, and to assert otherwise is to fly in the face of not only basic logic but historical fact. The insurgency has grown over time because of the inability of the US forces to maintain order, to provide the basic necessities, and because of their often heavy-handed tactics, such s at Abu Graib and others.

Are you seriously getting up here and saying that there is no such thing as causality, that there is no cause and effect at all? The actions of the US have had consequences, and those consequences have been to seriously increase the resistance they face.

Let us be clear here my friend, not only are you arguing against me and reality, you are arguing against the US military itself. They openly admit errors in judgement and realise that their actions have caused an increase in the Insurgency. Not just the inability to create basic infrastructure, but higher-level mistakes, such as the dismissal of the Iraqi military following the US victory, or the inability to protect basic infrastructure against post-liberation Riots, or the refual for political reasons, to commit sufficient troops to the campaign. ALL of these were warnings given to Bush Jr before the war, and all were ignored.

Quote:
Yeah those peaceful occupations are great, the people really dig them. I suppose you're canadian so you can't understand but britain wouldn't have accepted a peaceful* nazi occupation, because it just isn't us.
The insult really helped your point along. In fact I have been living in the UK for several years now, and studied here for years before that, and I have forgotten more about modern insurgency than you have ever known.

In fact in every single occupied country in Europe in WWII< there was a distinct and direct relation between the actions of the occupier and the level of resistance they faced. The French resistance was not even violent until 1941, and its effectiveness and level of violence increased with the repression and barbarity of the Germans. Same in occupied Eastern Europe, where the Nazis were often greeted as liberators who had freed the people from a tyrant (sound familiar) but soon soured of their new occupiers when the Nazi actions decended into barbarity. Same in Soviet Afghanistan.


Quote:
To imply the core issue of occupation can be ignored by the population provided you give them enough electricity and water is beyond absurd. Your 'link' merely explains who is more likely to collaborate; the people however will always resist.
As I have said, its not just electricity and watr, it is many of the actions and mistakes of the US POST-occupation, and in the pre-occupation planning. Where do you think all these insurgents are coming rom? They are being recruited among the refugees, the disposessed and the homeless. They are coming from the poor whose lives have gotten dramatically worse since the US arrived. Thats why the Insurgency is always the worst in parts of the country where the provision of basic infrastucture, water and electricity are at their worst.

You might consider learning a bit about the situation, and maybe some basic history, before throwing insults and incorrect personal opinions you have dressed up as facts.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 18:49   #65
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Oh please. "The" resistance aren't some anti-American hate group; whilst some people in the middle-east certainly would hate america and the west, and what it stands for, no matter what happened, the majority of people who do so now are doing it because we gave them a reason to.
...yes by invading, if you feel you have the capacity to invade and occupy another country and make the people thank you for it go ahead, personally i don't.


Quote:
No, I'd beg to differ. Whilst there are people who will fight for a cause, who will die for a cause, ANYTHING of that nature is fueled by adversity. If the government keeps the trains running on time and gives people food, water and healthcare, most of the population just won't give a damn.

Have a look at the Romans. I'd hardly call the Gauls a subservient people, but they were, over time, readily taken into the Empire.
The British Empire wasn't a repressive nazi state, yet the people we ruled over fought to get us out. The people in the mid 20th century empire weren't starving, nor were they thirsty and as far as im aware their transportation needs were adequate, yet they fought us.


Quote:
Beyond absurd, but well vindicated by history.
like?

Quote:
You need numbers to fight a revolutionary war; do you think that the number of people in this country (to give an example) are so patriotic that they would die just to have a different name giving them the same deal?

Im sure there are many people in this country that would fight to prevent the pain and suffering of a war, conquest and occupation with the only reward being 'the same deal'

I'm not really sure how that ties in with iraq though.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 19:08   #66
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
...yes by invading, if you feel you have the capacity to invade and occupy another country and make the people thank you for it go ahead, personally i don't.
If you make their quality of life better, then they just might. If you actively make it worse, then that's hardly going to improve things is it?

You seem to have this mindset that people do things because they love or hate some abstract notion of a nation state. They don't. If the county council went around shooting people in the streets, I wouldn't care that they were English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The British Empire wasn't a repressive nazi state
I think you've been reading a glamourised version of history there. The British Empire remained an empire, using all the tools of empire building that were available to us.

Don't forget who the words "Concentration camp" were first used with respect to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The people in the mid 20th century empire weren't starving, nor were they thirsty and as far as im aware their transportation needs were adequate, yet they fought us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowlatt_Act

A nice, liberal, law there, passed in the mid 20th century. That is not the exception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
like?
Verm's post has some nice examples, and as he's actually qualified in this area he'd probably pick better ones anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Im sure there are many people in this country that would fight to prevent the pain and suffering of a war, conquest and occupation with the only reward being 'the same deal'
Fighting an outside force is different from fighting one which is already here. The fear and resentment of something different is part of it, as is the fact that people tend to do what they're told, assuming they're comfortable. Change who gives the orders, show things are the same, and the will to fight will be orders of magnitude smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I'm not really sure how that ties in with iraq though.
Yes, we have already established your disregard for the lessons of history and current affairs.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 20:28   #67
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Really? And you are certain of this why? You feel confident of your assertion for what reason?
Because i believe the 'fundamental flaw' in the entire war was the war itself, you can argue about what plan should have been in place, highlight whatever errors you think are appropriate but after all those relatively ambigious plans were in place there would always be something else.

There is always something else because the flaw isn't the planning but the invasion.

Quote:
Why have the number of Insurgents steadily increased over the last 3 years? If people were going to fight anyways, then why did they take so long to go about it?

The best your somewhat ctwisted logic can hope for is to claim that there would have been some people resisting the US no matter what. I will give you that, I am certain a small percentage of this insurgency was inevitable.

However the rest of it was most certainly not, and to assert otherwise is to fly in the face of not only basic logic but historical fact. The insurgency has grown over time because of the inability of the US forces to maintain order, to provide the basic necessities, and because of their often heavy-handed tactics, such s at Abu Graib and others.

I can only answer that from a broadly fiscal pov since thats where most of the discussions i know about regarding 'escalation' are done. The markets have never really believed the insurgency has grown as such, or in a definatively measurable way that affects it at least (you may say that is a flaw) the extra-budgetry appropriations have grown with time but afaik for fy2007 they're going to be lower than this year (and iirc from then on, on budget). The money the dod asked for is thought to be high for a variety of political reasons inherent to washington, mainly the fact that theres going to be far more turbulence between the whitehouse and congress and the fact war funding has to be budgeted would make it far harder to get funding. A level of attrition has been thought to be reached in iraq (id accept thats disputed) - the funding hasn't been increasing because the war withregards to the military is getting worse, the body count bears that up, apart from a few monthly spikes it is relatively constant.

I don't know how a greater number of insurgents was 'measured' or how they're meant to be having an impact on the coalition but i suspect they may include the ethnic divisions that have sprung up.


Quote:
Are you seriously getting up here and saying that there is no such thing as causality, that there is no cause and effect at all? The actions of the US have had consequences, and those consequences have been to seriously increase the resistance they face.
I'm not ignoring it, im saying that arguments based around causality are inherently wrong (wrt 'success') since there will always be an insurgency. You may plan in one area and reduce it, but something will always take its place because the flaw was the invasion.

I'm not ignoring causality, i simply think its besides the point.

Quote:
Let us be clear here my friend, not only are you arguing against me and reality, you are arguing against the US military itself. They openly admit errors in judgement and realise that their actions have caused an increase in the Insurgency. Not just the inability to create basic infrastructure, but higher-level mistakes, such as the dismissal of the Iraqi military following the US victory, or the inability to protect basic infrastructure against post-liberation Riots, or the refual for political reasons, to commit sufficient troops to the campaign. ALL of these were warnings given to Bush Jr before the war, and all were ignored.
Building 'basic infrastructure' (ie reconstruction) was awarded to private companies, either in competitive bids (bechtel etc) or erm just given (halliburton), the funding for that was finite and largely spent in 2004, im unsure what the us army itself could have done but i accept they made mistakes. If they hadn't have made those mistakes a resistance would still have existed.


Quote:
The insult really helped your point along. In fact I have been living in the UK for several years now, and studied here for years before that, and I have forgotten more about modern insurgency than you have ever known.
Fair enough, out of curiosity what was the last modern insurgency to be defeated by a foreign army? (by planning properly)



Quote:
As I have said, its not just electricity and watr, it is many of the actions and mistakes of the US POST-occupation, and in the pre-occupation planning. Where do you think all these insurgents are coming rom? They are being recruited among the refugees, the disposessed and the homeless. They are coming from the poor whose lives have gotten dramatically worse since the US arrived. Thats why the Insurgency is always the worst in parts of the country where the provision of basic infrastucture, water and electricity are at their worst.
I think resistance to an occupation is determined primarily by the existence of the occupation, you will never plan perfectly to avoid it.



Quote:
You might consider learning a bit about the situation, and maybe some basic history, before throwing insults and incorrect personal opinions you have dressed up as facts.
what?
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 20:34   #68
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
If they hadn't have made those mistakes a resistance would still have existed.
Whilst I'll let Vermillion fight his own battles, partially because you seem to be quite annoying to argue with, this is not what is being discussed. If you think that Vermillion said proper planning would stop all resistance, please quote where he said that.

Meanwhile, I'll quote this:

Quote:
I am certain a small percentage of this insurgency was inevitable.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 20:41   #69
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you make their quality of life better, then they just might. If you actively make it worse, then that's hardly going to improve things is it?

You seem to have this mindset that people do things because they love or hate some abstract notion of a nation state. They don't. If the county council went around shooting people in the streets, I wouldn't care that they were English.
I can't think of a poor nation that was invaded made 'better' and was thankful for it, and yeah people do do things for abstract notions of nationhood, thats pretty much how the world is run


Quote:
I think you've been reading a glamourised version of history there. The British Empire remained an empire, using all the tools of empire building that were available to us.

Don't forget who the words "Concentration camp" were first used with respect to.
But we were never nazis


Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowlatt_Act

A nice, liberal, law there, passed in the mid 20th century. That is not the exception.

erm thats kinda my dude, their needs were taken care of, they didn't fight for electricity or water or roads. They fought us because we occupied them, plan as you wish, give them what you want, in the end it'll always come down to you being there.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 20:44   #70
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Whilst I'll let Vermillion fight his own battles, partially because you seem to be quite annoying to argue with, this is not what is being discussed. If you think that Vermillion said proper planning would stop all resistance, please quote where he said that.

Meanwhile, I'll quote this:
Yeah i know, thats what the whole 'an insurgency' 'the insurgency' thing was about.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 22:46   #71
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Because i believe the 'fundamental flaw' in the entire war was the war itself, you can argue about what plan should have been in place, highlight whatever errors you think are appropriate but after all those relatively ambigious plans were in place there would always be something else.
That doesn't even make any sense.

Firstly, I agree, the war was a mistake for an assortment of reasons. But your logic here seems to have been that BECAUSE the war was a mistake, there can therfore NOT be any other mistakes, missteps, planning or execution errors that caused the situation to become much worse.

That is in essence your point, is it not? That 'other errors' are irrelevant because the invasion itself caused some degree of resistance?

So, let me ask you a hypothetical.
A: US invades Iraq, tries to set up appropriate assistance and medical programs immediatley, does not allow infrastructure to degrade, manitains a degree of peace, and goes above and beyond to help the Iraqi people survive and prosper.
B: US invades Iraq, sets about systematically raping every woman between 14 and 60, murders anyone who is seen in public after dark, pillages the nation's reserves of currency and natural resources, then poisons the Baghdad water supply.

In those two scenarios, do you think the level, fervour and passion of the insurgency might be a bit different? If you say no, you are an idiot. If you say yes, then you are accepting that errors of planning and execution, and errors of action can affect the nature of a local insurgency, and thus completely abandoning your initial point.


Quote:
There is always something else because the flaw isn't the planning but the invasion.
So, to be clear, planning and execution has NO EFFECT whatsoever on what happens in an invaded nation? There is no link at all between the actions of the occupiers, and the actions of the occupied?


Quote:
I can only answer that from a broadly fiscal pov since thats where most of the discussions i know about regarding 'escalation' are done. The markets have never really believed the insurgency has grown as such, or in a definatively measurable way that affects it at least (you may say that is a flaw) the extra-budgetry appropriations have grown with time but afaik for fy2007 they're going to be lower than this year (and iirc from then on, on budget). The money the dod asked for is thought to be high for a variety of political reasons inherent to washington, mainly the fact that theres going to be far more turbulence between the whitehouse and congress and the fact war funding has to be budgeted would make it far harder to get funding. A level of attrition has been thought to be reached in iraq (id accept thats disputed) - the funding hasn't been increasing because the war withregards to the military is getting worse, the body count bears that up, apart from a few monthly spikes it is relatively constant.
Firstly, I can't believe how irrelevant that entire point is. The Insurgency has been gaining in members, and strength since day one. The budgetary quirks of the US war effort could not imaginably be less relevant.

Howevr, even though it is of topic, a few factual corrections to your fiscal commentary: The markets have nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of measuring the levels of insurgency in a foreign country; extra-budgetary appropriations have not grown because that would imply there was an initial budget for the Iraqi war, which there was not, each fund is a direct congressional grant; the amount of money consumed by the US military and civilian aid agencies in Iraq has been growing year to year, and the 2007 amount will most certainly (assuming continuation at current levels) exceed the 2006 amount, barring change in strategic deployment of OOB; the difficulty in getting funding so far has been zero, and it will only increase because of the los of republican control of the House of representatives, and finally the Iraq body count has been steadily increasing for about 6 months.

So apart from utterly irrelevant, almost every point you made there was factually wrong.

Quote:
I'm not ignoring it, im saying that arguments based around causality are inherently wrong (wrt 'success') since there will always be an insurgency.
No, there will usually be an insurgency (not always) and the level and nature of the insurgency is directly related to the actions of the occupying nation.

Quote:
Fair enough, out of curiosity what was the last modern insurgency to be defeated by a foreign army? (by planning properly)
Well, lets see: The greek civil war and the Malayan insurgency, to name just two. However, more to the topic, shall we discus the insurgencies which demonstrate a direct causal link between the actions of the occupying country and the nature and level of the insurgency? Ireland, pretty much every single ocupied nation in the Second World war, Post war Germany, Hungary, Malaya, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Chechnia, Dagestan, Afghanistan (twice), and so on...

Quote:
I think resistance to an occupation is determined primarily by the existence of the occupation, you will never plan perfectly to avoid it.
No, as I have stated numerous times, it is very dificult to plan to avoid it. It is possible to plan to minimise and destroy/suppress it (Wehrwulf in post-war germany, for example), and it is certainly possible to plan to limit it. It is also very posible to make mistakes which seriously aggrivate and strengthen it. (see: Iraq war V2.0)
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 22:48   #72
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Oh, and KaneED, doing just fine, working a lot, wandering back and forth between the UK and France periodically to try and get a book finished...
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 23:01   #73
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Surely the Malayan insurgency was defeated primarily by the removal of the main objection of the largest portion of their supporters, ie the colonial system in place, and the granting of their main desire, independence. Considered as regards Iraq surely the most similar action would be the removal of the occupying forces. There is something essentially objectionable about being ruled solely by those who are not ourselves after all.
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Unread 8 Nov 2006, 23:50   #74
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I can't think of a poor nation that was invaded made 'better' and was thankful for it,
I can't think of a poor nation that was invaded and made "better", except in the short term; coincidentally, I can think of several nations that weren't opposed in anything close to a majority. In said short time period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
and yeah people do do things for abstract notions of nationhood, thats pretty much how the world is run
No, they do it for the tangiable notions of nationhood. They do it for the people down the street, their family, their race, their social group, whatever.

They don't do it for the words. Noone does it for the words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
But we were never nazis
No, because we weren't members of the national socialist party in Germany in the 30's and 40's.

What exactly does this mean? Are the Nazis the only ones allowed to commit crimes against humanity? Are you either the Nazis or a force for rampant good?

If Germany had, instead, been taken over by a group called the Bazis in the 30's, and had only killed 3 million Jews, but had done everything else the same: no, they would not be as evil, as destructive, as our "Nazis". That wouldn't mean they were a force for the light, as it were.

I haven't seen this kind of black and white imagining of the world since Star Trek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
erm thats kinda my dude, their needs were taken care of, they didn't fight for electricity or water or roads. They fought us because we occupied them, plan as you wish, give them what you want, in the end it'll always come down to you being there.
I don't think having the ability to round up and execute members of the populace without recourse sounds like giving people what they want. It sounds exactly like what an oppressive government who didn't care about what the local populace felt would do.

People's needs include being alive, you know. The fact that the Indian people only started to be significantly opposed to the British rule once that kind of Draconian measure had been implemented is in no way a validation of your argument.

This is almost a direct parallel, by the way, of arguing with Treveler, a creationist, over evolution.

You should not take from that anything but shame.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 02:39   #75
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
In those two scenarios, do you think the level, fervour and passion of the insurgency might be a bit different? If you say no, you are an idiot. If you say yes, then you are accepting that errors of planning and execution, and errors of action can affect the nature of a local insurgency, and thus completely abandoning your initial point.
Er no that wasn't my point, you're changing this to 'fervour and passion' of the insurgency from the existence of the insurgency itself, but regardless post#76

To imply there is no link with the actions of the liberator/ occupier and the actions of the liberated/ occupied is incredibly naive.

Your 'link' merely explains who is more likely to collaborate; the people however will always resist.

Lets take option A far beyond what you've said, the americans take $500 billion and give every iraqi his fair share, instead of arguing over electricity, water or whatever 'needs' they have they're given the money and the market is left to determine what they actually need and want, even with their $16K the resistance - the insurgency would continue.

The concept of the resistance is the most important factor to me, you could plan to whatever extent you wish, you could placate them in a myriad of ways, but there would still be a resistance because there was still an occupation, and their will to fight you would be greater and would overwhelm your will to stay and attempt to satisfy them.

Quote:
But your logic here seems to have been that BECAUSE the war was a mistake, there can therfore NOT be any other mistakes, missteps, planning or execution errors that caused the situation to become much worse.
My logic is the war was such a colossal mistake and the definitions of success so utterly unachieveable that any 'mistakes, mishaps, planning or execution errors' are literally besides the point.

By analogy with the soviet invasion of afghanistan, i'm sure there are retired generals and politicians who mourn that if only they'd have planned better they could have won; completely ignoring that victory was always going to be alien to the invasion (you'll dispute this, we'll agree to differ)

You're saying 'things could be better right now if we did xyz' im saying they'll always be the rest of the alphabet and more. It's not that i deny casuality post-occupation its just completely irrelevant wrt 'victory/success'

The major mistake was jumping off the cliff, if you want you can argue about the fact we'd be in a better position if we'd taken our shirts off and constructed a pseudo-parachute at the very begining, to me the inevitability of hitting the ground makes the shirt discussion meaningless.

Quote:
So, to be clear, planning and execution has NO EFFECT whatsoever on what happens in an invaded nation? There is no link at all between the actions of the occupiers, and the actions of the occupied?
The failure of occupation is inevitable, its a question of time.

Quote:
The Insurgency has been gaining in members, and strength since day one. The budgetary quirks of the US war effort could not imaginably be less relevant.
Not quirks, its the most important way the markets have of seeing whats going on. This insurgency is a very odd thing then, its proportionally growing less effective the 'larger' it becomes. The military body count has stayed in the same orders of magnitude for some time now. I'd suggest the iraqis use the same level of people as 2003 and increase their efficiency.

I don't know how a greater number of insurgents was 'measured' or how they're meant to be having an impact on the coalition but i suspect they may include the ethnic divisions that have sprung up.

has the iraqi death count been rising?

Quote:
The markets have nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of measuring the levels of insurgency in a foreign country;
The markets assume the level of resources the US is using in iraq is proportional to whats going on in iraq. You disagree with them?

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extra-budgetary appropriations have not grown because that would imply there was an initial budget for the Iraqi war, which there was not,
I'm not sure what you're trying to say

Quote:
which there was not, each fund is a direct congressional grant; the amount of money consumed by the US military and civilian aid agencies in Iraq has been growing year to year, and the 2007 amount will most certainly (assuming continuation at current levels) exceed the 2006 amount, barring change in strategic deployment of OOB; the difficulty in getting funding so far has been zero, and it will only increase because of the los of republican control of the House of representatives,
Funding for reconstruction has ended, i'll concede the recent bridge funding approved gives around $40 billion for iraq and there are going to be more requests in february for around $80billion so you're right it is at least equal to 2006 levels, but the rate of growth as yet hasn't matched past years. I know the funding is going to get more difficult, the dod knows the funding is going to get more difficult, theres a feeling that by circumnavigating the official budgetry process they're asking for more than they need to offset and problems in the future (through options prices they get for bulk buying things like fuel)

Quote:
So apart from utterly irrelevant, almost every point you made there was factually wrong.
It may be utterly irrelevant to you but theres quite a few people that make money from that information, you think the spending in iraq is in no way linked to the situation on the ground? really?!? the only factually wrong bit id admit to is only taking in the bridging fund of around $70 billion and assuming that was the iraq appropriations and all of that would be spent on iraq, its actually coming in two waves.

Quote:
No, there will usually be an insurgency (not always) and the level and nature of the insurgency is directly related to the actions of the occupying nation.
And i think an insurgency in iraq was inevitable and that insurgency was inherently linked to the occupation regardless of what happened.

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The greek civil war and the Malayan insurgency, to name just two.
Everyone knows malay, the greek civil war is interesting, i should have been clearer in saying by the foreign army that was occupying it at the time.

Quote:
However, more to the topic, shall we discus the insurgencies which demonstrate a direct causal link between the actions of the occupying country and the nature and level of the insurgency? Ireland, pretty much every single ocupied nation in the Second World war, Post war Germany, Hungary, Malaya, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Chechnia, Dagestan, Afghanistan (twice), and so on...
interesting but

Er no that wasn't my point, you're changing this to 'fervour and passion'* of the insurgency from the existence of the insurgency itself,

*nature and level
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 03:20   #76
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I can't think of a poor nation that was invaded and made "better", except in the short term; coincidentally, I can think of several nations that weren't opposed in anything close to a majority. In said short time period.
Ah i see so your exit strategy would be based on going in blasting them with good fortune and leaving before any insurgency develops? that would be a good plan, though i wouldn't call it a long term success.


Quote:
No, they do it for the tangiable notions of nationhood. They do it for the people down the street, their family, their race, their social group, whatever.

They don't do it for the words. Noone does it for the words.
I'm not sure what world you're living in but afaik 'nationhood' has always been an abstract notion rather than a tangible one, i really couldn't give a flying monkeys what you do if the 3 people i care about aren't harmed, however put in some flag waving, some anthems, geographic arbitraryness and you've got a fighting man. When iraq was invented by us the people living there didn't have much in common, we magiced up a monarchy, the flag etc etc and voila some abstract aura making later people who had no tangible link feel connected.


Quote:
What exactly does this mean? Are the Nazis the only ones allowed to commit crimes against humanity? Are you either the Nazis or a force for rampant good?
We never sought an industrial solution to eliminate the undesirables, we didn't put the people we conqured in gas chambers, as empires go we were quite civilised. We weren't nazis.


Quote:
I don't think having the ability to round up and execute members of the populace without recourse sounds like giving people what they want. It sounds exactly like what an oppressive government who didn't care about what the local populace felt would do.

People's needs include being alive, you know. The fact that the Indian people only started to be significantly opposed to the British rule once that kind of Draconian measure had been implemented is in no way a validation of your argument.
We did worse 60 years before that act was passed, resistance to british rule wasn't a 20th century invention, nor was significant resistance a novel concept. We brought several improvement to india in terms of infrastructure development, yet they always opposed us. From the very begining. The divergence of the occupation with the occupier is an inevitable act of invasion, you can argue about when and why it will occur (as above) to me it is besides the point as its always destined to fail.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 10:13   #77
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Ah i see so your exit strategy would be based on going in blasting them with good fortune and leaving before any insurgency develops?
I congratulate you on your seeming ability to forget the start of a sentence you're reading by the time you finish it. It would prove useful were you ever to go into politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
When iraq was invented by us the people living there didn't have much in common, we magiced up a monarchy, the flag etc etc and voila some abstract aura making later people who had no tangible link feel connected.
They feel connected so much that subdivisions are fighting eachother and vying for independence. Just like Yugoslavia is a happy, united country, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
We weren't nazis.
Again this comparison, I don't see how it's relevent in any way, and actually hurts your case (as per Verm's examples earlier).

We weren't Gauls either. Or Babylonians. Or proponents of the German Green Party. Or any of the other political organisations which existed.

Stop referring to the nazis, for the love of god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
We did worse 60 years before that act was passed, resistance to british rule wasn't a 20th century invention, nor was significant resistance a novel concept.
We did worse before, and India rebelled before. You seem to think that the physical conflicts arise out of thin air, not out of, say, religious or political conflicts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The divergence of the occupation with the occupier is an inevitable act of invasion, you can argue about when and why it will occur (as above) to me it is besides the point as its always destined to fail.
Well, in the case of the significant Indian rebellions (the Indian Mutiny, which lead to the downfall of the East India Company and the resistance which took place in the 20th century, with that Ghandi fellow) they pretty much directly followed a decision from on high which showed that the leader at the time didn't care about the populace. Certainly in the former case there were many opponents of his policy with regard to the "main" issue (the use of fat in ammunition casings) which implies that the only reason it was "destined to happen" was that we were being "nasty" to the populace.

This makes your position "They won't rebel if you're nice to them, until you're nasty to them" which is so similar to mine, and so banal, I'm not quite sure why you're proposing it.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 10:21   #78
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Er no that wasn't my point, you're changing this to 'fervour and passion' of the insurgency from the existence of the insurgency itself
No, he's not. He's pointed out several times that your referral to the existance of "the" insurgency is meaningless. I can say that there's people who hate and want to kill members of The Beatles, which is supported by, for example, a member of The Beatles being killed and armed intruders trying to attack others.

It doesn't mean that The Beatles Insurgency is some unified thing, it doesn't imply that it has the scale of the insurgency in Iraq. People act differently based upon their own motives. We're not talking about some giant herd of sheep who all act in the same way.

You say you're studying to be an economist: where? Why don't you know this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Your 'link' merely explains who is more likely to collaborate; the people however will always resist.
There is no unified "people". ANYWHERE.

The miners' riots in the 80's: that was hardly a nationwide thing, nigh on all the people involved were those it directly affected. I don't see many objections to anti-hunting laws being made on the streets of newcastle.

Are you trying to put forward a series of statements so meaningless and ludicrous just in order to see how far we'll continue to reply to them?
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 11:37   #79
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monbiot
But the viceroy, Lord Lytton, insisted that nothing should prevent its export to England.
My my, that sounds so very much like the Potato famine in Ireland. Why is it that the lesson of history is that those who should read it, never do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You say you're studying to be an economist: where? Why don't you know this?
I dont know if milo said that, but i'm pretty sure that I did; just in case you;re getting the both of us confused (shudder ).

btw, i agree with you pretty much throughout.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 12:51   #80
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Actually that's kind of wrong.

I'm not the biggest fan of Monbiot but the man does a good line in evidence.

In this article: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005...ts-holocausts/

This is just one example of poor behaviour on our part so we should hesitate before congratulating ourselves on the "civilisation" of our empire.
I'm afraid I think you've been had.

There appears to be no such thing as the 'Anti-Charitable Contributions Act of 1877'. To be honest it was the name that made me look into it - it's not the sort of name we would normally give a statute.

Perhaps if you were less 'passionate' in your hatred of the Empire you would be less susceptible to these scams.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 12:55   #81
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I'm afraid I think you've been had.

There appears to be no such thing as the 'Anti-Charitable Contributions Act of 1877'. To be honest it was the name that made me look into it - it's not the sort of name we would normally give a statute.

Perhaps if you were less 'passionate' in your hatred of the Empire you would be less susceptible to these scams.
No way, he couldn't have actually just made something up like that?
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 13:07   #82
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I dont know if milo said that, but i'm pretty sure that I did; just in case you;re getting the both of us confused (shudder ).
Apologies!

Maybe milo should study to be an economist too.

(As an insight into how my brain works wrt typing, that "study" came out as "stupid" initially.)
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 13:48   #83
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I congratulate you on your seeming ability to forget the start of a sentence you're reading by the time you finish it. It would prove useful were you ever to go into politics.
...right

Quote:
They feel connected so much that subdivisions are fighting eachother and vying for independence. Just like Yugoslavia is a happy, united country, right?
Oh i agree that that abstractism can go very wrong. Just to clarify and to move the discussion back onto the main thrust of the thread, i think yugoslavia was pre-destined to fail, its leaders and politicians would probably argue that if only they'd planned more or taken account of the particular circumstances that lead to its downfall it would have been ok, to me the entire idea was pants.

The reason for continually making the distinction between the 'bad idea' and 'planning within the bad idea' is because i for one don't want to do it again. Its far less important to say why something fell down than recognise it was going to fall down.

Quote:
Again this comparison, I don't see how it's relevent in any way, and actually hurts your case (as per Verm's examples earlier).
I was trying to point out that as empires go, we weren't that bad, but we were always going to fall. The nazi thing was link it to perhaps one of the worst aspects of humanity, but nvm

Quote:
We did worse before, and India rebelled before. You seem to think that the physical conflicts arise out of thin air, not out of, say, religious or political conflicts.
!
i don't remember saying that, resistance is a very political concept!

Quote:
This makes your position "They won't rebel if you're nice to them, until you're nasty to them" which is so similar to mine, and so banal, I'm not quite sure why you're proposing it.
Im unsure what 'nice' means but regardless, this makes my position that the needs, desires, wishes, wants, sexual pervertedness etc of a population cannot be anticipated to a suffecient level by the occupation to stop the people fighting to get you out. Even if you avoid the decision about what those wishes, desires or needs are and simply let the market decide by giving the population money; they will fight to get you out.

The reason for making the argument and fighting for the distinction is because the mindset that you can plan around a people and make an occupation work leads you to finding other places to invade and occupy.

I'd rather just take a look at the initial invasion and say it was pre-destined to fail. That way i won't try to learn meaningless lessons post-occupation.


edit:im not an economist, i do have friends who are bankers
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 14:15   #84
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
.The reason for making the argument and fighting for the distinction is because the mindset that you can plan around a people and make an occupation work leads you to finding other places to invade and occupy.

I'd rather just take a look at the initial invasion and say it was pre-destined to fail. That way i won't try to learn meaningless lessons post-occupation.
this is quite a long thread and I don't really want to get involved but it looks like I'm going to any way.

Denial is not a good thing. Whavever your motives may be, unless you try to look at the world from as objective a viewpoint as possible then you are destined to failure. Wars will always happen and to say 'oh well, it doesn't matter what happens afterwards because it will be terrible no matter what' is not going to make things better for the Iraqi people.

You say that occupation was destined to fail, but it depends on what your definition of failure is. If you accept that the war was not started to help out the Iraqi people then you have to find out what the war actually was about. therefore it is very possible that the aim of the war can be completed (albeit with more irritation than required) even though there is a lot of violence in the country.

Once the US and UK troops are pulled out of Iraq, do you think the US and British people will actualy give a flying **** how many people die in Iraq? I have expectations of the Iraqi security forces. I expect them to be overly brutal in their treatment of prisoners and I don't expect the West to do anything except help support the Iraqi government if it needs to be propped up, even against mass popular protest.

the US could have prevented a lot of this insurgency by killing less civilians and providing more funding to infrastructure, or at least to be seen to be making genuine efforts at helping the people at large. there was always going to be a resistance, but it did have to be this large.

Most people don't really care about freedom, as long as they are comfortable. this can be illistrated by looking at popular uprisings and revolutions. If the economy is running well then it is far more difficult to find supporv for a revolution than it is just coming out of, say a major depression.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 20:41   #85
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I don't know whether to be sarcastic about this or not.

OK, firstly, if the entirety of the crime rested on such an act being passed then the tone of your intervention might have been merely impertinent. As it is you have simply interrupted a perfectly good line of argument to point out that in referencing a reference in an internet discussion, the summary is perhaps slightly misleading in its origin. One could point out that as you "looked into it" you gave no reference as to the nature of this crystal ball, this oracle which produced such a certainty in your mind.

Secondly, even if such an act not been passed that does not diminish the point one iota. The fact remains that between 1876 and 1878 there was what was known as the great Madras Famine. A quick Google search elicits several articles published by Oxford (Of course your resources for checking Oxford journals are second to none so I leave you with that charge) on the subject so we can conform that it occurred and that a colossal number of people died. Furthermore we know of course that Britain was in charge of India at the time since Queen Victoria was named Empress of India at the time (1877 would you believe, so they were clearly passing some legislation about India at that time). Now even without the charges laid in the article article we see the noble and benevolent British empire presiding over a time of appalling suffering in a time of plenty.

Thirdly, the act is widely referenced throughout the web, so although I realise it is hard to prove a negative your research seems to be somewhat glib. Now I would not like to speculate as to where your misunderstanding comes from, I think that puts too great a burden on the media, but if you would like to push the point and I have to go and find further references then not only shall I post them in full but will start a thread to do so.

Fourthly, if you gave a cursory glance at the article I quoted you will note that the reference to the crimes in India were just one example of numerous British atrocities. I could again detail them and we could go over the lurid details in all their unpleasantness. I had thought it only polite to spare the audience, but if you would like to pursue of the issue that is your prerogative.

So use your tedious turn of phrase: Perhaps if you were less 'passionate' in your mindless defence of the Empire you would think before posting.
I've tried to highlight the points in your post which drew me to the conslusion that I shouldn't reply.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 20:45   #86
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I've tried to highlight the points in your post which drew me to the conslusion that I shouldn't reply.
I can't really be bothered to pop to the UL at this time in the evening, but a quick scoot round what I can get from here seems to indicate that the British Empire did indeed seize farmland and its produce from the indian natives during the 19th century!
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 20:47   #87
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I can't really be bothered to pop to the UL at this time in the evening, but a quick scoot round what I can get from here seems to indicate that the British Empire did indeed seize farmland and its produce from the indian natives during the 19th century!
the relevant books would be in the maitland room in the squire
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Unread 11 Nov 2006, 01:58   #88
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

When I was much younger (much, much younger actually) I too was convinced of the rampant evil in all government. However, I went over to the dark side because I finally became overwhelmed by my own self-righteousness. I now have this same reaction to anyone, in any cause who becomes self-righteous. This dosen't mean they are wrong. However, I no longer have the certainty of youth as a shield against all of the doubts.
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Unread 11 Nov 2006, 10:52   #89
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

I didn't take the time to read the whole thread as for the most part I saw far too many statistics being thrown around and everyone knows, there are lies ,damn lies and statistics.

But one thing that gets me is that the islamist extremist militia cannot possibly be interested in the general well being of the general iraqi population or in fact any other muslims, as they are the ones doing the bulk of the killing in iraq today, and they aren't killing foriengers, they are killing other ethnic groups that they dislike.

Also if they cared so much for the people why the hell didn't they overthrow saddam, they certainly seem to have no shortage of weapons?

Also, whoever if slagging off the british empire, you must try to remeber that the empire never waged a war of ethnic annhilation like the americans did to the american indians. And I'm pretty sure it did a lot of good for many of the countries involved otherwise why in the hell are they still in the commonwealth?

I don't think the war was fought for the right reasons as if it was we would have deposed mugabi by now, the west are usually happy to stand idlely by and let innocent people die because any attempt to help just leads to resentment from one source or another.

If it were up to me I'd would see all dictators gone, unfortunatly it just seems that some countries are filled with people more than willing to take up a position in the power vacuum that would be left, there is no shortage of power hungry maniacs out there.

Also... Everyone posting on this thread seems to be thoughtful, knowledgeable and literate, I think its hard for well educated, easy living (assumed), moderate peoples to understand the mentality of extremists, or even those living in countries governed by dictators, but I really wonder if the tables were turned and we were in charge would it make the world a better place, I think not.
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Unread 11 Nov 2006, 11:00   #90
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar Lord
But one thing that gets me is that the islamist extremist militia cannot possibly be interested in the general well being of the general iraqi population or in fact any other muslims, as they are the ones doing the bulk of the killing in iraq today, and they aren't killing foriengers, they are killing other ethnic groups that they dislike.
In general, i agree with you here. Sadly, i've posted that before and the discussion on this topic has already happened, so you'll probably see the same people say the same thing again - but that's ok.

Quote:
Also, whoever if slagging off the british empire, you must try to remeber that the empire never waged a war of ethnic annhilation like the americans did to the american indians. And I'm pretty sure it did a lot of good for many of the countries involved otherwise why in the hell are they still in the commonwealth?
I would imagine that the Boers in South Africa might disagree with you on this topic. iirc, the British Empire was the first to use concentration camps; pretty sure they held Boers during the Boer Wars around the turn of last century. :\
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Unread 11 Nov 2006, 11:38   #91
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Re: 654,965 Dead Iraqis Later

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar Lord
I didn't take the time to read the whole thread as for the most part I saw far too many statistics being thrown around and everyone knows, there are lies ,damn lies and statistics.
The fact that you're writing this on a computer implies that you tacitly approve of some statistical methods.
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