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Unread 1 May 2008, 15:02   #1
All Systems Go
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Higher Education

OK, this is the situation.

1) I am going to finish my MRes in Politics in September. Pretty much all I have left is my dissertation, which I hope to finish ASAP even though it isn't due until September.

2) I am starting a full-time job on 12th May.

"So" you might ask, "what's the problem?"

"Well," I would reply "I think I've gone insane. Because"

3) I want to start an MSc in Economics in September.

To flesh this out a little, I have no actual trianing in economics and the maths involved may actually kill me, but we're pretending that doesn't matter at the moment.

The reason I'm thinking of a second Masters degree is because I'm not sure I really feel capable for doing three years more work for a PhD at the moment. I'm not sure I have enough for another year, but we'll see.

I'm looking into this because even if I don't do it this year, I might do it next year.

Yet all of this really depends on how I find working a full-time job and doing the dissertation. I might do it full-time or part-time, probably part-time because I've no actual training in the subject.

So, opinions, comments, and any general warnings against this path would be appreciated.
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Unread 1 May 2008, 15:53   #2
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Re: Higher Education

I really really want to avoid the typical cynical-GD-insulting-poster, but I really don't understand your reasoning.

You want to do a Masters but you aren't entirely sure why? Economics isn't a particularly easy course (it's no Business Studies! ) so why spend the time/money/effort doing something you aren't sure about?
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Unread 1 May 2008, 16:16   #3
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Re: Higher Education

ASG, why do you want to study economics? I ask because if you've studied Politics then I guess you're not solely interested in how to increase a country's economic output, however you want to define that; I suppose you'd be more interested in Political Economy.

Of course, it depends on what is actually being studied in your masters programme, but generally I find the city kids who've studied economics at Oxbridge or other notable institutions go though the following process: master the learning process (awesome), study and internalise the arguments in favour of the efficient market hypothesis (less awesome) and then get a job in the city and try not to become the next Lesson (soul destroying).

And, really, if you're not that keen on Maths (we're brothers in this respect), why study a Mathematics-based subject? If you want to increase your rather base mathematical ability (which I do) then there are far better methods, which you can do in your spare time which do not necessarily involve enrolment in a university, especially not enrolment in an economics course. That's probably peripheral though. Basically, perhaps you should take one step at a time (increase your mathematical ability, then study economics if you've decided that's really what you want to do), and not just leap and possibly drown.

Finally, it seems, like most people on this forum, you're interested in increasing your edification. Of course, higher educational institutions help you do this, but as soon as you've mastered the learning process (and by this I mean increased your capacity to learn new ideas, hold opposing arguments in your mind along with the one you favour at the same time, increase your reading ability, and increase your ability to abstract, etc; not that there's an end point to speak of) I'd argue, with enough spare time, you have little need for such institutions.

Of course, if you've decided, in order to get whatever position you eventually or currently aim for, you need some more letters added to the end of your name, then fair enough; but if that doesn't come into your equation, I don't understand why you really need to enrol in another course, particularly one you think may kill you.
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Unread 1 May 2008, 16:35   #4
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Re: Higher Education

To sum up Tom and Hebdomad's arguements (which i agree with):

"What do you want in life / what is your goal?"

If your goal means you need the MSc in Economics (as in it's a requirement on the job spec you want) then do it. If it doesn't then don't.
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Unread 1 May 2008, 17:10   #5
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Re: Higher Education

OK. I want to do a MSc in economics because I want to know about economics.

There is no 'grand plan' nor is there any desire to go into a job which requires economics. This is a purely academic decision.

This is the field I want to study next. Sure, having the degree looks good on a CV, but that is largely besides the point. Out of all my areas of interest, I think this is the best one to do. I could study philosophy or something, but that seems to be something I can do on my own initiative.

As to the maths question, I too would like to broaden my skills in this area. I was kind of hoping an economics course would be like reading a book by J. K. Galbraith, but I feel that is not the case.

Also, I have an insatiable desire to be mark and graded* which private study doesn't provide.

*not degraded, ok MM?
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Unread 1 May 2008, 17:20   #6
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Re: Higher Education

I'd like to do a Masters next year maybe but I dont have the money and I dont know if i'd be doing it to procrastinate for another year about what i want to be when i grow up
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Unread 1 May 2008, 18:13   #7
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Also, I have an insatiable desire to be mark and graded* which private study doesn't provide.
Without stating the obvious, you can't be a student all your life (unless you're nodrog)

Economics can be very very dull indeed. Some of it is interesting, sure, but a lot of it is mind-numbingly depressingly boring (in my opinion).

Why don't you get a job and do something Open University or evening-college based? You could get an A-level or something in it which would give you a basic insight into it, and THEN you could decide if you want to dedicate another year of your life to it.
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Unread 1 May 2008, 18:20   #8
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Without stating the obvious, you can't be a student all your life (unless you're nodrog)
I can try!

Quote:
Why don't you get a job and do something Open University or evening-college based? You could get an A-level or something in it which would give you a basic insight into it, and THEN you could decide if you want to dedicate another year of your life to it.
I have a job, a difficult concept to understand but yes, I have a JOB. For like, the first time ever!

I don't really want to do an A-level, as it might be a bit pointless and the jump to Masters would be rather huge.
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Unread 1 May 2008, 20:32   #9
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Re: Higher Education

It'd be pretty huge without any subject knowledge whatsoever too...
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Unread 1 May 2008, 21:18   #10
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Re: Higher Education

I'm pretty sure that economics at A level gives you all the basic knowledge that you need to understand it, if that's what you want...
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Unread 1 May 2008, 22:08   #11
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Re: Higher Education

I have an economics MSc. It was worth it but don't let anyone fool you the maths involved is tough, you may be better off studying part time for an undergraduate degree. There is a lot of fun theory / politics BUT the core modules will all require you to have a good working knowledge of above A level standard maths especially for the Microeconomics / Game Theory stuff.

Pop into the library and have a look at Fundamental Methods of Mathematical Economics by Alpha C. Chiang (1984). That was the standard maths text for third year undergraduate / part of my MSc, it's fairly easy to work through and gives you a good idea of what to expect.
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Unread 1 May 2008, 22:13   #12
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Re: Higher Education

oh my god

you got a job

I am not so old nor so mental that i forget how hard it was for you to get a job. now you want to throw it away?

****ing moron
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Unread 2 May 2008, 03:23   #13
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
3) I want to start an MSc in Economics in September.
As an Honours student in Economics at the moment (graduating at the end of the semester ... i hope! ), i have the following to say.


Economics, at its very simplest essence, is all about decision making. You use mathematical and statistical techniques and methods to assemble the available information. You then use some theory to guide you to compare the various costs and benefits, and then you reach a decision (to typically maximise said benefits).

You're presently studying some Politics. Generally, i would suggest that you should drop that and do Economics because you'll never get a job doing politics. However, you already have a job in that field, which means you're already in the top 5-10%. This is a good thing.

Thus, the main benefit of doing economics over politics (ie, being able to get job once you graduate), has been negated. Therefore, do not do economics.

Problem sovered.


On a similar note, once you've been in that job for a year or whatever, submit to higher management that you're very interested in expanding upon your horizons in a relevent field. Demonstrate that greater knowledge about general economics would lead to improvements in your capacity as an employee in this that and the other way. Then suggest to them that you could complete a masters degree in economics on a part-time basis, and that it would lovely if the firm could go some way to financing said human resource development. Suggest that the result of this is that you would definately stay with the firm for another xy amount of time to make such an investment in your education beneficial to the firm.

That way, you still have your job. You get your education in economics to assuage you interests. Further, you may even get them to pay for (part of) the bill (which is large). It might take more time, but its probably time well spent. Particularly if you end up liking where you're working.

Clearly, it has potential problems (you need to like what you're doing, you need to demonstrate that you are a diligent worker in that year, and you need to show clealy how greater formal understanding of economics will assist you in your role, and you need to show that you're interested in staying with the firm with whom you have your job for the medium term [equire about management roles perhaps?]. How you go about this will depend on a lot of things, and will probably present a major challenge. However, compare these costs to the expected benefits! .
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Unread 2 May 2008, 10:27   #14
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Re: Higher Education

Economics is horrid. Just hundreds of graphs with minor changes and very little to distinguish between them. I did the A-Level in economics and enjoyed it to the extent that i decided to continue doing this at degree level, sadly after a year on the course i realized how much it sucked ass and swapped courses to a far more interesting (and probably far less useful) course in International Relations.

Just make sure you know what economics is about before making any decisions, its not all about reading the economist once a week 90% of it is totally abstract and bordering on meaningless with little real world application (in my opinion).

If you love looking at pretty graphs and poking them around, then id reccomend economics!
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Unread 2 May 2008, 10:40   #15
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Re: Higher Education

I've checked a few university sites and all the ones I looked at require you to already have some form of Economics degree.

Even if you can find one which doesn't require that I don't think your maths will be good enough. I mean how much of even GCSE maths can you remember? (quadratic equations, differentiation? and I vaguely remember you struggling with them at the time)

Then there is what Yahwe said, and without that job how would you even live for the next year?

Personally I think you are completely mad if you do it.
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Unread 2 May 2008, 11:45   #16
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Re: Higher Education

It's probably pre-A Level stuff, but read "a very short introduction to economics" if you haven't already. I enjoyed it and I became more interested in macroeconomics, which it only touches on very briefly, because of it.

In fact: keep you job, read that book, then a "very short introduction to game theory", then more introductory books, and books on mathematics, then choose whether to enrol next year or not. Or better yet, seek internal validation instead of relying on someone else's marking criteria, and save lots of money by not enrolling in a masters programme, which you could then use to start a moderate drug habit or pay prostitutes, who could then rate your performance afterwards if you still want someone to (de)grade you.

(I don't understand why you can study philosophy on your own initiative but not economics, incidentally)
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Unread 2 May 2008, 11:49   #17
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
oh my god

you got a job

I am not so old nor so mental that i forget how hard it was for you to get a job. now you want to throw it away?

****ing moron
Darling, you make a lot of assumptions. And when you assume things you make an ass out of u and me.


I was thinking of doing this course, eith part-time or full-time but either way it would be in the evening.

Birkbeck seemed a good place for such a thing.
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The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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Unread 2 May 2008, 11:58   #18
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
As an Honours student in Economics at the moment (graduating at the end of the semester ... i hope! ), i have the following to say.


Economics, at its very simplest essence, is all about decision making. You use mathematical and statistical techniques and methods to assemble the available information. You then use some theory to guide you to compare the various costs and benefits, and then you reach a decision (to typically maximise said benefits).

You're presently studying some Politics. Generally, i would suggest that you should drop that and do Economics because you'll never get a job doing politics. However, you already have a job in that field, which means you're already in the top 5-10%. This is a good thing.

Thus, the main benefit of doing economics over politics (ie, being able to get job once you graduate), has been negated. Therefore, do not do economics.

Problem sovered.

On a similar note, once you've been in that job for a year or whatever, submit to higher management that you're very interested in expanding upon your horizons in a relevent field. Demonstrate that greater knowledge about general economics would lead to improvements in your capacity as an employee in this that and the other way. Then suggest to them that you could complete a masters degree in economics on a part-time basis, and that it would lovely if the firm could go some way to financing said human resource development. Suggest that the result of this is that you would definately stay with the firm for another xy amount of time to make such an investment in your education beneficial to the firm.

That way, you still have your job. You get your education in economics to assuage you interests. Further, you may even get them to pay for (part of) the bill (which is large). It might take more time, but its probably time well spent. Particularly if you end up liking where you're working.

Clearly, it has potential problems (you need to like what you're doing, you need to demonstrate that you are a diligent worker in that year, and you need to show clealy how greater formal understanding of economics will assist you in your role, and you need to show that you're interested in staying with the firm with whom you have your job for the medium term [equire about management roles perhaps?]. How you go about this will depend on a lot of things, and will probably present a major challenge. However, compare these costs to the expected benefits! .
I've already used my 'assume' comment for this thread, so I'll pass that by. Also, this is actually constructive assumption.

I do not work in politics. In fact, not even close. I work in construction.*

I shall be doing various tasks for the man who owns the company. It is not what you would call a 'normal' office job. There is certainly no HR Department. This is probably the main reason why I got the job in the first place.

Whilst I did mention full-time/part-time options in my original post, I should have made clear that either way I would not be quitting my job. That would literally be insane. Literally.

I should also have mentioned that funding it this year might not be possible, so it would probably start next year anyway. This makes qutting the job an even more insane proposition.

*although the next project is a block of flats for the council.
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Unread 2 May 2008, 12:01   #19
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
I've checked a few university sites and all the ones I looked at require you to already have some form of Economics degree.

Even if you can find one which doesn't require that I don't think your maths will be good enough. I mean how much of even GCSE maths can you remember? (quadratic equations, differentiation? and I vaguely remember you struggling with them at the time)

Then there is what Yahwe said, and without that job how would you even live for the next year?

Personally I think you are completely mad if you do it.
Assume etc... etc...

As previously mentioned though, the maths is somethign fo a problem, although I have been studying statistics as part of this course so I wouldn't be going into it completely from scratch. On this train of thought, I would very much like to build upon this knowledge I now have and make it into something I can apply rather than completely forgetting by October.

edit: the fact this is a voluntary choice also makes the difference. Being forced to do something isn't particularly inspiring.
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The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

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Unread 2 May 2008, 12:11   #20
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It's probably pre-A Level stuff, but read "a very short introduction to economics" if you haven't already. I enjoyed it and I became more interested in macroeconomics, which it only touches on very briefly, because of it.

In fact: keep you job, read that book, then a "very short introduction to game theory", then more introductory books, and books on mathematics, then choose whether to enrol next year or not. Or better yet, seek internal validation instead of relying on someone else's marking criteria, and save lots of money by not enrolling in a masters programme, which you could then use to start a moderate drug habit or pay prostitutes, who could then rate your performance afterwards if you still want someone to (de)grade you.

(I don't understand why you can study philosophy on your own initiative but not economics, incidentally)
I probably should have just replied to everyone in a single post. Oh well!

A very short intorduction should a good idea. I was thinking of reading such books, but that's a selection I think I shall use.

The point about philosophy is that I consider it to be part of the humanities. My undergraduate degree was in history, this is in politics. I think I can get a lot more out of that on my own initiative than I could do with a more mathematics based course, which I may require some guidance on.

Also, it's not that I am against studying philosophy 'properly' I simply feel this would be a better choice, should I find the mathematics not too unbearable.

RE Game Theory: I saw a Beautiful mind, does that count?
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Unread 2 May 2008, 12:31   #21
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Re: Higher Education

Do you think that having another Masters (in Economics) will significantly help you in getting a job/career?

I don't really understand why you need validation from grades/results
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Unread 2 May 2008, 12:35   #22
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Do you think that having another Masters (in Economics) will significantly help you in getting a job/career?

I don't really understand why you need validation from grades/results
It may or may not, that doesn't really matter to me.* As a topic, this is something I would feel more comfortable being taught. As I've already said, I don't really want to spend at least 3 years doing a PhD and this seems to offer a shorter option. Although, this all depends on the practicality of doing a PhD and a full-time job. Part-time, it could take up to seven years!

*although it probably would, actually
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Unread 2 May 2008, 18:54   #23
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Assume etc... etc...

As previously mentioned though, the maths is somethign fo a problem, although I have been studying statistics as part of this course so I wouldn't be going into it completely from scratch. On this train of thought, I would very much like to build upon this knowledge I now have and make it into something I can apply rather than completely forgetting by October.

edit: the fact this is a voluntary choice also makes the difference. Being forced to do something isn't particularly inspiring.
If so many people have had to make assumptions maybe your original post should have been clearer :P

Most of the maths I had to do at undergrad was more pure rather than statistical so I'm not sure how much use that would even be. I mean I am guessing you can't do the two items I mentioned in my last post, and while they aren't difficult the A level is much harder, then undergraduate was significantly harder again. If you are then trying to work while doing the course it will be even more difficult trying to learn all the basic maths and economics which you have missed out on, while doing the next stage.

http://www.ems.bbk.ac.uk/courses/msc...ammes/msc_econ

They want a 1 year diploma course first as well, though that is easier to get in that anywhere else I looked.
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Unread 2 May 2008, 19:02   #24
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Re: Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
If so many people have had to make assumptions maybe your original post should have been clearer :P

Most of the maths I had to do at undergrad was more pure rather than statistical so I'm not sure how much use that would even be. I mean I am guessing you can't do the two items I mentioned in my last post, and while they aren't difficult the A level is much harder, then undergraduate was significantly harder again. If you are then trying to work while doing the course it will be even more difficult trying to learn all the basic maths and economics which you have missed out on, while doing the next stage.

http://www.ems.bbk.ac.uk/courses/msc...ammes/msc_econ

They want a 1 year diploma course first as well, though that is easier to get in that anywhere else I looked.
I've not done those mathematics for about 7 years, so I've no idea how quickly I would be able to pick them up. I'm hoping my mental faculties has developed somewhat since then.

I am vaguely aware of the diploma, it was mentioned to me at a time when my brain was melting, so it's all kind of moulded into some unseemly mess that is the first post of this thread.
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Unread 2 May 2008, 22:54   #25
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Re: Higher Education

Actually, part-time seems a good option.
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Unread 6 May 2008, 00:40   #26
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Re: Higher Education

So, have you decided on anything?
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Unread 6 May 2008, 12:09   #27
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Re: Higher Education

I've decided that I'm going to finish this take home exam first.

Then I'm going to wait a year so that I might actually be in a position to fund such a plan.

I'm considering doing a part-time PhD instead. I'll see how I feel next year.
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Unread 19 Sep 2009, 15:46   #28
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Re: Higher Education

18 months. What's the score?

(apologies for the bump - i've been away for a bit ).
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